Jesus As God

Guestman said:

Despite the fact that Jesus himself said that he is God's "only-begotten Son" at John 3:16, that he was ' taught by the Father' at John 8:28, that he was granted "all authority...in heaven and on earth" by his Father at Matthew 28:18, that he is unaware of the "day and hour" as to the time when the "great tribulation" is to begin, "but only the Father", at Matthew 24:36, that "the Father is greater than I am" at John 14:28, that he prayed "not as I will, but as you will" at Matthew 26:39, that he used an endearing term that only a child uses with regard to a loving Father, by saying: "Abba (meaning in Aramaic "O Father", corresponding with the word "papa" in English) Father" at Mark 14:36, individuals still give support to the trinity, that Jesus is God.

The apostle Paul clearly understood that Jesus is "the image of the invisible God, firstborn of all creation" at Colossians 1:15, that Jesus has a God and Father by telling the Ephesians: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" at Ephesians 1:3, reemphasizing that Jesus has a God to the Ephesians again, by saying "that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him" at Ephesians 1:17, that Jesus is subservient to his Father, by saying that "the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God" at 1 Corinthians 11:3.

Those who say that Jesus is God, are no different than the religious leaders of Jesus day, that regardless of the mountain of evidence that showed him as the Messiah (meaning "anointed one"), as at Matthew 8:14-16, 9:35, the healing of the demon-possessed man at Matthew 12:22, whereby the Pharisees attributed the healing to Beelzebulb (thereby sinning against the holy spirit[Matt 12:31,32], resulting in their everlasting destruction upon death), of his changing water into wine at John 2, of his resurrecting Jairus 12 year old daughter at Mark 5:38-42 and of Lazarus resurrection at John 11, these hated him, even seeking to put him to death.(John 11:53) The religious leaders were unreasonable, not wishing to change their "ways", but remaining steadfast in their wrong beliefs. Jesus called them "blind guides", saying "Every plant that my heavenly Father did not plant will be uprooted."(Matt 15:13, 14)

Those who say that Jesus is God have followed the "tradition" of the trinity without serious consideration of what the Bible really teaches about Jesus Christ. Very few examine the Bible without bias, but instead follow what has been taught by the churches. Very few give critical thought of the Bible, "chewing the cud" so to speak. Because to view it other than what "orthodox Christianity" has promoted often makes a person stop in their tracks. These are unwilling to reason on the Bible, and would make a distortion of justice in a court case, already having passed judgment upon someone without carefully examining the evidence of his innocence or guilt. It takes courage to speak the truth, for Jesus said that those who did, would be "hated".(John 15:18-20)

Despite what Jesus and his apostles taught regarding his crucial role as God's "servant"(Matt 12:18), most cast aside all of the evidence of his Sonship (Matt 16:16; Dan 7:13, 14), but have placed him as God. Because the nation of Israel threw aside all the miraculous works and weighty evidence supporting Jesus being the promised Messiah, even to the point of murdering Jesus Christ (1 Thess 2:14, 15), God cast them off forever.(Matt 23:37-39) Likewise, of the churches, for they are to be dealt with forcefully for their teaching that which is not true.(Rev 17:16; 18:8)

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You are a false teacher and an antichrist, with no wisdom! You have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about here. Your interpretation of the Scriptures you are quoting couldn’t be farther from the truth.

He might legitimately believe what he's preaching (As all false teachers do).

I'm saying he 100% genuinely has NO IDEA of the triune God position. He doesn't even have to agree with it: that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I see a lack of education in regards to the godhead. Else he wouldn't make some of these arguments he's making.

tomwebster said:

You are a false teacher and an antichrist, with no wisdom! You have absolutely NO idea what you are talking about here. Your interpretation of the Scriptures you are quoting couldn’t be farther from the truth.

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There is no triune God position. In fact, the word Godhead is not in the original reading. Rather, the three places where it is found in the King James Bible, the Greek words theios at Acts 17:29, theiotes at Romans 1:20, and theotes at Colossians 2:9 are all rendered by Strong's Exhaustive Concordance as "divinity", "divine", or "divine nature", not as "Godhead". To place the word Godhead in these three Scriptures is like putting a square peg in a round hole. It is a word coined to provide support for the trinity.

Stating that the trinity is true without solid evidence is like building a house on a sandy foundation.(Matt 7:26, 27) And saying that I am a "false teacher and and an antichrist" without any proof is no different than the Jews who "were filled with jealousy and began blasphemously contradicting the things spoken by Paul" in Antioch.(Acts 13:45) Despite their opposition, Paul and Barnabas boldly stood up for the truth.(Acts 13:46, 47)

In an earlier instance, though the Jews thought that they were "on the right track", Jesus exposed their wrong thinking, telling them: "You are searching the Scriptures, because you think that by means of them you will have everlasting life; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me."(John 5:39) They were unwilling to examine the evidence that Jesus was the Messiah, though supposedly "searching the Scriptures", the 39 books of the Hebrew Scriptures. They were biased and prejudiced. They had a closed mind.

Likewise of many who profess to be Christian in saying that the trinity is true. As an example that the trinity is not true, Jesus told the eleven faithful apostles: "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Exercise faith in God. Exercise faith also in me."(John 14:1) Why did Jesus make a clear distinction between himself and God if he is God ? At John 15:1, why did Jesus show himself as subservient to his Father, by calling himself the "true vine" and his Father "the cultivator" if he is God ? Why did Jesus say that he had "observed the commandments of the Father and remain in his love" ?(John 15:10) If Jesus is God, then why would have "observed the commandments of the Father" ?

If Jesus is God, then how could he call his Father "the only true God" and at the same time also separate himself by saying "and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ" at John 17:3 ? If Jesus is God, then why does he not call him "brother", which are equal in a family instead of Father ? If the trinity is true, then why are not all three in the "Godhead" known as three "brothers" instead of Father, Son and holy spirit, since according to the trinity doctrine, all are said to be "Almighty", co-equal ?

Furthermore, if Jesus is God, then why is he spoken of as having "brothers" that are from among mankind at Matthew 25:40 and Hebrews 2:17, since a "brother" denotes a level of equality within a family ? If Jesus is God, then how could Jesus be a "mediator between God and men" at 1 Timothy 2:5 and also be seen as a "corresponding ransom" (Greek antilytron and not just lytron meaning "ransom" at Matt 20:28) in verse 6, a ransom equal to Adam, a man ? If Jesus is God, could Adam, when he was perfect, "correspond" or be equal to him ?

In addition, if Jesus is God, then why did the apostle Paul say that he "offered up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death, with strong outcries and tears, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear" at Hebrews 5:7 ? Jesus having "godly fear" does not fit if he is God, nor does him offering "up supplications and also petitions to the One who was able to save him out of death", nor does the fact that he "learned obedience from the things he suffered."(Heb 5:8) Since when does God fear anyone ? Also, does God ' learn obedience ' or can he be "made perfect", since he is the very epitome of perfection ?(Deut 32:4)

Hence, few are willing to cast aside their cherished belief in the trinity even in the face of evidence that shows that Jesus is not God, but his "only-begotten Son." (John 3:16) And what does "only-begotten" mean ? Why did Jesus call only himself "only-begotten Son" and no other sons of God ? Any man who has a son or daughter has "begotten" them, for this comes from the word "beget" and means "to be the father of a child", "to be the cause of something."(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005)

If Jesus is God and eternal, having no beginning, then how could he be "begotten" or was fathered ? Jesus could not of have said this if he is God ! But he did, which speaks volumes to those who are willing to let the Bible speak for itself rather than forcing the square peg of the trinity doctrine down a round of the truth that Jesus is the "only-begotten Son of God."(John 3:18)

Guestman said:

...If Jesus is God and eternal, having no beginning, then how could he be "begotten" or was fathered ? Jesus could not of have said this if he is God ! But he did, which speaks volumes to those who are willing to let the Bible speak for itself rather than forcing the square peg of the trinity doctrine down a round of the truth that Jesus is the "only-begotten Son of God."(John 3:18)

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Because you are unable to see the truth. You are unable to understand the meaning of Php 2

Php 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Php 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Php 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Php 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
Php 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Php 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Someday you will and you will bow to Him and declare Him as Lord but it will be too late!

Jesus Christ is the word of God.

why do we argue over this? Don't you guys read your bible?

She doesnt have to see him as God, because he is Gods Son. But like a king's son, he is Lord and heir of the Fathers kingdom, God has crowned him with honour and has manifested his power in him.

Duckybill said:

How many Gods do you believe in GM?

Genesis 1:26 (NKJV)
[sup]26 [/sup]Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;"

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Moses told the nation of Israel, in 1473 B.C.E., just before their entrance into the land of Canaan: "Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah."(Deut 6:4) Some 1500 years later, upon being asked "Which commandment is first of all ?", Jesus restated this: "The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah, and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.’ "(Mark 12:28-30)

Jesus told Satan after not having eaten for 40 days: "Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (Matt 4:10) Hence, there is only one true God that is Almighty and that is to be worshipped, Jehovah.(John 17:3)

Guestman said:

Moses told the nation of Israel, in 1473 B.C.E., just before their entrance into the land of Canaan: "Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah."(Deut 6:4) Some 1500 years later, upon being asked "Which commandment is first of all ?", Jesus restated this: "The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah, and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.’ "(Mark 12:28-30)

Jesus told Satan after not having eaten for 40 days: "Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (Matt 4:10) Hence, there is only one true God that is Almighty and that is to be worshipped, Jehovah.(John 17:3)

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The plurality of the one God is clearly taught in Gen. 1:26. Which Christians know as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. One God.

Duckybill said:

The plurality of the one God is clearly taught in Gen. 1:26. Which Christians know as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. One God.

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You just said a non-sensical statement, by saying that the "one God" is plural. It is either God as singular or "gods" as plural, but not "one God" as plural. It is like saying "the broom" is plural, or "the car" is plural. People, such as yourself, will go to great lengths to twist or distort wording for the purpose of promoting the trinity. This was done centuries ago with Scripture, such as at 1 Timothy 3:16, that was changed from "he was manifest in the flesh" to "God was manifest in the flesh", and at 1 John 5:7, whereby the words "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost and these three are one" were added by a trinitarian. Rather than being "honest in all things"(Heb 13:18), these have resorted to dishonest tactics to endorse the trinity. Talk about being a Christian.

When the Israelites left Egypt in 1513 B.C.E., there were many trinities of gods that the Egyptians worshipped, such as the triad of Osiris, Isis (his wife), and Horus (his son) and of the city of Thebes who worshipped the triad of Amon, his wife Mut, and Khonsu (his adopted son). Thus, Moses told the nation of Israel in 1473 B.C.E.: "Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah."(Deut 6:4) He was clearly expressing a truth, that God is not part of a trinity or triad of gods, as the surrounding nations worshipped, with Egypt on the south, Assyria on the north, who worshipped the triad of Aner, Bel and Ea and Babylon to the east that had the triad of Sin (the moon-god), Shamash (the sun-god), and Ishtar.

GM, you've resorted to, "Let me ignore the Biblical passage staring me in the face and just post more of what supports my position".

If you're UNABLE to deal with Genesis 1:26, then your view is flawed. The Bible cannot contradict itself. If your view comes to the point in which it does, like yours has just done, your view is wrong: not the Bible.

The Bible speaks of the mystery of God many times. We're not meant to know everything about him, including the triune nature.

Guestman said:

You just said a non-sensical statement, by saying that the "one God" is plural. It is either God as singular or "gods" as plural, but not "one God" as plural. It is like saying "the broom" is plural, or "the car" is plural....

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Once again you show your "knowledge" of Scripture: The noun "God" in the Gen 1 is the plural form of the noun.

Gen 1:26 And God (H430) said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

H430 ֱאֹלִהים 'ĕlôhı̂ym: A masculine plural noun

TexUs said:

GM, you've resorted to, "Let me ignore the Biblical passage staring me in the face and just post more of what supports my position".

If you're UNABLE to deal with Genesis 1:26, then your view is flawed. The Bible cannot contradict itself. If your view comes to the point in which it does, like yours has just done, your view is wrong: not the Bible.

The Bible speaks of the mystery of God many times. We're not meant to know everything about him, including the triune nature.

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Genesis 1:26 does not support Jesus as God, for it does not say that Jesus is God, but rather it says: "And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness, and let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every moving animal that is moving upon the earth.” That two are spoken of here is true, but just because it says" Let us make man in our image" does not in any way identify that Jesus is God, just a "master worker" that worked with his Father to create man.(Prov 8:30) This is no different than a wife assisting her husband to accomplish a task under his headship.

This is no different than the descendants of Noah who settled in the valley plain of Shinar, saying to one another: "Come on! Let us make bricks and bake them with a burning process.” So brick served as stone for them, but bitumen served as mortar for them. They now said: “Come on! Let us build ourselves a city and also a tower with its top in the heavens, and let us make a celebrated name for ourselves, for fear we may be scattered over all the surface of the earth.”(Gen 11:3, 4) These worked together in order to build a city and a "celebrated name" for themselves.

Jesus is God's "master worker" in creating the universe and all life as seen at Proverbs 8:22-31, for verse 22 says that "Jehovah himself produced (Hebrew qanah, meaning "to erect, to create, to procure", Strong's # 7069, see online interlinear Scripture4all ) me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago." Verse 23 further says that "From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth", with verse 30 and 31 saying: "then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men."

Though some try to identify this as just "wisdom" personified, that could not be the case, for God's wisdom had no beginning, having existed for eternity, for God is eternal.(Ps 90:2) This, combined with the fact that Jesus himself said that he is "beginning of the creation by God" at Revelation 3;14, that Jesus is spoken as "the wisdom of God" at 1 Corinthians 1:24, and that Colossians 1:15 says that Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation" shows that the one at Proverbs 8:22-31 is Jesus in his prehuman existence and serves as God's "master worker", subservient to his Father. Jesus told the Jews: "My Father has kept working until now, and I keep working.” (John 5:17) Hence, Jesus works with his Father to accomplish God's will, not his own.(Matt 26:39)

Duckybill said:

Even the OT taught that the Son is God.

Isaiah 9:6 (NKJV)
[sup]6 [/sup]For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

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At Isaiah 9:6 Jesus Christ is prophetically called ’El Gib·bohr′, “Mighty God” , not ’El Shad·dai′ [God Almighty], which is applied to Jehovah at Genesis 17:1.

tomwebster said:

Once again you show your "knowledge" of Scripture: The noun "God" in the Gen 1 is the plural form of the noun.

Gen 1:26 And God (H430) said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

H430 ֱאֹלִהים 'ĕlôhı̂ym: A masculine plural noun

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Yes, the Hebrew word ’Elo·him´ is plural, but you fail to understand the semeitcs of the Hebrew language. When applying to Jehovah God, ’Elo·him´ is used as a plural of majesty, dignity, or excellence. (Gen 1:1) Regarding this, Aaron Ember wrote: “That the language of the O[ld] T[estament] has entirely given up the idea of plurality in . . . [’Elo·him´] (as applied to the God of Israel) is especially shown by the fact that it is almost invariably construed with a singular verbal predicate, and takes a singular adjectival attribute. . . . [’Elo·him´] must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty, being equal to The Great God.”—The American Journal of Semitic Languages and Literatures, Vol. XXI, 1905, p. 208.

Duckybill said:

Just when you think you've heard it all! So you're saying God needed help with the creation. Well He didn't.

Psalm 33:6 (NKJV)
[sup]6 [/sup]By the word of the Lord the heavens were made, And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.

Revelation 1:8 (NKJV)
[sup]8 [/sup]"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End," says the Lord, "who is and who was and who is to come, THE ALMIGHTY."

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Hi Ducky,

I see you are up to your old tricks again.

Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"


Ducky its odd that the Jews have worship Yahweh for 5000 years and are severely monotheistic. The Hebrew word "elohim" translated "God" and the plurals "us" and "our" never suggested trinitarian ideas to them? Nor is there any New Testament allusion to indicate that in their interpretation of this passage they were mistaken?

Seems odd Ducky ???????

Can you find a passage in the NT to suggest the Jews have been falsely worshipping God these past 5000 years?

Check out this beautful Psalm!

Psa 104:4 he makes his messengers (Angels) winds, his ministers a flaming fire.

Psa 104:5 He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved.

Psa 104:6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains.

Ducky, think of the Angels as God's vehicle which carries his power...they do all His commands. They are His face and what ever they see He sees.

Eze 37:9; Dan 7:2; Rev 7:1. compare Heb 1:7, Heb 1:14

Alethos