Father, Son, Holy Ghost

evanom said:

Now i understand, you're a Jehovah's witness! By the way stauros can also mean cross. So how do u know if it was one or the other? Study Roman secular history (try to forget about your personal religious indoctrination).

I'm also curious Paul on how in the world you came up with this one.

Click to expand...

the idea of the cross came about a couple of hundred years after the writing of the NT. those who first presented the cross were not eyewitnesses of the event so their word should certainly not be taken as gospel. Other then the writings of some of those later 'church fathers' there is nothing in the NT which indicates a crossbeam was used nor are there found any early church monuments providing evidence of a cross.

But other NT writers repeatedly use another word apart from sturos which is 'tree' (xylon) as the instrument of Christs death and they used the same word to refer to the clubs that the mob carried when they first arrested Jesus in the garden. The indication is that the xylon on which Christ died was a piece of wood...like an upright tree.

Hello Pegg,

It seems that the problem lies in how one interprets biblical scripture. If I am not mistaken, I think most Protestants rely on the King James Version or the New King James Version because that is the English translation that accurately reflects the Hebrew and Greek. However, I am not Protestant. Because I am Catholic, I rely on the Douay-Rheims because that Bible was translated from the Latin Vulgate, which was the oldest Bible translated from the Greek and Hebrew. At any rate, both the King James Version and the New King James Version gives Jesus the title of "God."

Romans 9:5 of whom are the fathers and from whom according to the flesh Christ came who is over all the eternally blessed God. Amen.

(Taken from the New Kings Version)

Romans 9:5 Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

(Taken from the King James Version)

Both verses give Jesus the title of God. It is not saying that Christ is over all in relation to Isreals 'Fathers' from the past. It is saying that Christ is overall "God blessed for ever" or Christ is "overall the eternally blessed God." Also, Christ has never been called a "father" in any of the New Testament. He has always been called a "Son." Christ is described as a second Adam because like the first Adam, He is a Son. Adam was a son of God because Adam never had a human mother and father. He was the first created by God. In the same way, Christ was also the first of His kind because He did not have a human father.

We dont believe that he is the God of the hebrew scriptures who is known by the tetragrammaton. The God who is known as the Creator of heaven and earth is YHWY and YHWY is not Jesus.

But we certainly do view Jesus as a Mighty God who existed in the heavens along with many other spirit persons. In Genesis it reads that God the Creator said "Let US make man in OUR image" so its obvious that God did not exist alone in the heavens. He created many spirit persons including his 'only begotten son' and this is why we can view Jesus as a god in the sense of his existing in Gods form...a spirit.

Click to expand...

There is only one God. The angels and any spirit person in Heaven are not God nor are they close to even being like God. Lucifer got himself kicked out of Heaven because of his pride....he wanted to be like God. Adam and Eve also committed the same sin of pride when they ate the fruit. The serpent was able to convince Eve that eating the fruit would make them like God (Genesis 3:4-5). An angel or a man who claims to be equal to God is committing the sin of pride. Jesus is the only one who can make this claim because He is God and the Truth. God speaks of Himself in the plural sense because this is interpreted to mean that He is three persons in one.

The context of the passage also makes these renderings more reasonable. Paul was telling the Philippian christians to be humble “In humility, let each esteem others better than themselves.” and he uses Christ as an example of humility “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus.” If Paul was really saying that Jesus was equal to God, then that is not in harmony with the context of esteeming others as better then oneself and if he was trying to teach the Phillipians that they were not equal to God, why use someone he consider to be equal to God as the example that they should follow?
It doesnt make sense for Paul to do that.

Click to expand...

St. Paul explained in the next verse how Christ ,who is in the form of God and equal with God, humbled Himself: "But emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men, and in habit found as a man. (Philippians 2:7)

.

If Jesus is God the Father, how could it be said that he hands back the kingdom to himself? It doesnt make sense for Paul to say that.

Click to expand...

The only thing in Christ that is subject under God is His human nature because His human nature came from Mary. Nevertheless, Christ is still God. Christ hands everything to God the Father, who is also Himself because God had always desired unity and fellowship. A God who keeps Himself at a distance is not a God of love. Love is about unity, intimacy, relationship, and fellowship. God desires to bring all of mankind to Him because God is love. He created us because of love. His desire is to be one with us and for us to be one with Him because this is what love is....to be in unity and fellowship....so that "God will be all in all" as St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:28.

According to Paul, Jesus role is to bring us back to God the Creator...the Almighty. His role in this regard is evidence that he is not the Creator of heaven and earth, he is not the God of the Old Testament but he is the one prophesied in the OT to bring mankind back to God...the Messiah.

Click to expand...

The Bible does say that Christ is the Creator.

John 1:1-3, 14 In the beginning was the Word: The Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things came to be, not one thing had its being but through Him........The Word was made flesh, He lived among us, and we saw His glory, the glory that is His as the only Son of the Father full of grace and truth.

So, going back to Genesis when God said, "Let US make man in OUR image" the "us" and "our" is referring to the Father and Christ (the Son) whom St. John says was with the Father since the beginning. It also includes the Holy Spirit because the Bible reveals that the Holy Spirit is also God the Creator (Job 33:4). Angels did not create the Heavens and the earth. They also did not create man. We are in the image of God, not in the image of angels.

In Christ,
Selene

trulyelmo said:

This topic is not to be debated but explained

I wish to understand if Jesus was God all along as in John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word and the word was with God, and the Word was God.
I convinced that Jesus is the Living Word and that what the "Word" because otherwise how can God be carrying a Bible in the begginning...what meaning would that have?
Furthermore, when jesus was on Earth he is noted to have said "He is in me, as I am in Him" Doesn't this justify that Jesus is God?

But then as Jesus was baptised by John, A voice from heaven spoke, This is my son, in whom I am well pleased
If Jesus were in heaven and Earth which I tend to believe, then why was Jesus referred to in the whole Bible as God's Son?

Finally On the cross Jesus cried, "Father, why have you forsaken me?

Of course we know that Jesus is God, but why did he Cry?

Click to expand...

It does not say, in the Original Autographs, In the beginning, it says, In beginning.
It does not say, in the Original Autographs, the word was with God, it says,the logos was towards God.
It does not say, in the Original Autographs, the word was God, it say God was the logos.
Jesus is the Logos incarnated, the firstborn of all creation, the express visible image of the invisible God.
Prior to His kenosis, His emptying of Himself of His Glory, He was in the form of God and was known as YHWH, Jehovah, being equal to God, and distinct.
By Him and through Him all things that exist were created by Him.
The Bible never says He is the One true God, theos.

Jesus prayed that His disciples would be one as He and the Father are one, would that make His disciples God? Would that make them "Christs"? or would that be descriptive of the perfect unity of thought and heart and mind that is logically the context?

There is only One Who was begotten of God by the power of the Most High, the man Christ Jesus, the only mediator between God and men. The rest of mankind were begotten of Adam from his seed.

Although we would like to ascribe the glory of the Father to the Son, the Scriptures do not allow it. They are definite and precise in describing the relationship between God and His Son Jesus Christ. They are not the same being.

Jesus has a God, He has a Father. God has no father, and no god.

There can be no disputing these truths without entering into false reasoning based human unbelief.

fivesense

Pegg said:

Hi Selene,

Yes God is called Mighty but so are the angels (Psalm 103:20). But there is only one person called the 'Almighty' in the entire bible and its with reference to the Creator of heaven and earth. Jesus is never called the 'Almighty' anywhere or by anyone...nor is he mentioned in the OT.

The oldest Hebrew manuscripts contain the name of the creator, they are presented in the form of the Tetragrammaton which are written in hebrew as 4 letters יהוה
and are transliterated YHWH (or, JHVH) and means 'Become'. The name Jesus on the other hand is written as 'Jeshua' in hebrew and means 'YHWH is salvation' thus proving that the two names are not related to the same person.



then the Apostle John made a mistake by using a word that means pole.



can you direct me to the scriptures that tell us this...there must be some scriptural reason for believing such a thing.

Click to expand...

Actually, Pegg, it is "will-be-ing-was, the tetragrammaton YHWH. Keep up the good effort, I'm enjoying your handling of the word.

fivesense

fivesense said:

It does not say, in the Original Autographs, In the beginning, it says, In beginning.
It does not say, in the Original Autographs, the word was with God, it says,the logos was towards God.
It does not say, in the Original Autographs, the word was God, it say God was the logos.
Jesus is the Logos incarnated, the firstborn of all creation, the express visible image of the invisible God.
Prior to His kenosis, His emptying of Himself of His Glory, He was in the form of God and was known as YHWH, Jehovah, being equal to God, and distinct.
By Him and through Him all things that exist were created by Him.
The Bible never says He is the One true God, theos.

Jesus prayed that His disciples would be one as He and the Father are one, would that make His disciples God? Would that make them "Christs"? or would that be descriptive of the perfect unity of thought and heart and mind that is logically the context?

There is only One Who was begotten of God by the power of the Most High, the man Christ Jesus, the only mediator between God and men. The rest of mankind were begotten of Adam from his seed.

Although we would like to ascribe the glory of the Father to the Son, the Scriptures do not allow it. They are definite and precise in describing the relationship between God and His Son Jesus Christ. They are not the same being.

Jesus has a God, He has a Father. God has no father, and no god.

There can be no disputing these truths without entering into false reasoning based human unbelief.

fivesense

Click to expand...

Sorry Fivesense, but the Bible did say that Christ is God and humbled Himself to become human:

1 Philippians 2:5-7 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Me? I could never say that I am equal with God. No human can except Christ. Christ is the only one who can claim to be equal with God because He is God. God bless!

In Christ,
Selene

Selene said:

Hello Pegg,

It seems that the problem lies in how one interprets biblical scripture. If I am not mistaken, I think most Protestants rely on the King James Version or the New King James Version because that is the English translation that accurately reflects the Hebrew and Greek. However, I am not Protestant. Because I am Catholic, I rely on the Douay-Rheims because that Bible was translated from the Latin Vulgate, which was the oldest Bible translated from the Greek and Hebrew. At any rate, both the King James Version and the New King James Version gives Jesus the title of "God."

Romans 9:5 of whom are the fathers and from whom according to the flesh Christ came who is over all the eternally blessed God. Amen.

(Taken from the New Kings Version)

Romans 9:5 Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

(Taken from the King James Version)

Both verses give Jesus the title of God. It is not saying that Christ is over all in relation to Isreals 'Fathers' from the past. It is saying that Christ is overall "God blessed for ever" or Christ is "overall the eternally blessed God." Also, Christ has never been called a "father" in any of the New Testament. He has always been called a "Son." Christ is described as a second Adam because like the first Adam, He is a Son. Adam was a son of God because Adam never had a human mother and father. He was the first created by God. In the same way, Christ was also the first of His kind because He did not have a human father.

Click to expand...

its not so much a matter of 'interpretation' but its more a matter of 'translation'
There are numerous translations that show a different story. Notice their use of a full stop thus separating the two distinct subjects being spoken about.

The Riverside New Testament, Boston and New York. 1934
“and from whom by physical descent the Christ came. God who is over all be blessed through the ages! Amen.”

Revised Standard Version, New York.1952
“and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.”

Today’s English Version, American Bible Society, New York 1966
“and Christ, as a human being, belongs to their race. May God, who rules over all, be praised for ever! Amen.”

The New American Bible, New York and London 1970
“and from them came the Messiah (I speak of his human origins). Blessed forever be God who is over all! Amen.”

New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, Brooklyn 1950
“and from whom Christ sprang according to the flesh: God who is over all be blest forever. Amen.”

below is a scholars explanation of why the above translations are accurate in translating ho on as the beginning of an independent sentence referring to God and not Jesus.
In the original greek, the sentence is as follows:

kai ex hon ho khri‧stos′ to ka‧ta′ sar′ka, ] [ ho on e‧pi′ pan′ton, The‧os′ eu‧lo‧ge‧tos′ eis tous ai‧o′nas; a‧men′
out of whom The Christ according to flesh ] [ the one over all, God blessed into the ages Amen
>>>>>>>>>>JESUS>>>>>>>>>] [<<<<<<<<<GOD<<<<<<<<<<

The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel and Other Critical Essays, by Ezra Abbot, Boston, 1888, pp. 332-438. On pp. 345, 346 and 432 he says: “But here ho on is separated from ho khri‧stos′ by to ka‧ta′ sar′ka, which in reading must be followed by a pause,—a pause which is lengthened by the special emphasis given to the ka‧ta′ sar′ka by the to; and the sentence which precedes is complete in itself grammatically, and requires nothing further logically; for it was only as to the flesh that Christ was from the Jews.
On the other hand, as we have seen (p. 334), the enumeration of blessings which immediately precedes...naturally suggests an ascription of praise and thanksgiving to God as the Being who rules over all; while a doxology (a praise to God) is also suggested by the A‧men′ at the end of the sentence.

Basically it means that the end of the sentence is ascribing praise to God, not Jesus because the earlier part of the verse was completed by the use of the pause. By leaving out the fullstops, the subjects are merged into one which is why some translations appear to read as if Jesus is the God being blessed.

Selene said:

There is only one God. The angels and any spirit person in Heaven are not God nor are they close to even being like God. Lucifer got himself kicked out of Heaven because of his pride....he wanted to be like God. Adam and Eve also committed the same sin of pride when they ate the fruit. The serpent was able to convince Eve that eating the fruit would make them like God (Genesis 3:4-5). An angel or a man who claims to be equal to God is committing the sin of pride. Jesus is the only one who can make this claim because He is God and the Truth. God speaks of Himself in the plural sense because this is interpreted to mean that He is three persons in one.

Click to expand...

I agree that there is only one true God whom we should worship. However, the term 'God' is a term which implies something powerful or mighty....it is only a descriptive word just as Lord is descriptive of ones position so god is descriptive of ones position or power.
In fact, the hebrews had a word for someone who was 'godlike'...that word is me‧’elo‧him′ and is often translated as 'angels' or 'messengers'
In Psalm 8:5 the word is used prophetically with regard to Jesus becoming human: 5 You also proceeded to make him a little less than godlike (me'elo.him) ones..."

And Paul said something similar about jesus taking on a lower position and used the word 'angels' at Hebrews 2:7 You made him a little lower than angels; with glory and honor you crowned him, and appointed him over the works of your hands

The term 'god' is also applied to the Isrealites at Psalm 82:6 “I myself have said, ‘YOU are gods,
And all of YOU are sons of the Most High

At 2 Cor 4:4 Satan is called the 'god of this system'

So its not significant that we see Jesus being called a god...in fact it is to be expected because as a powerful spirit he IS existing in Gods form....God is a spirit and so all spirit persons can be said to be in Gods form.

Paul also said that when they are resurrected to heaven, they will be given the same resurection as Christ received at Romans 6:15 "For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall certainly also be [united with him in the likeness] of his resurrection "
Im sure you dont believe that being resurrected in Jesus likeness will make these ones Jesus. That is kind of what you are saying about God and Jesus....because Jesus existed in Gods form he must be God. Yet here we see that even some from among mankind will be given the likeness of Jesus when they are resurrected.

Selene said:

The Bible does say that Christ is the Creator.

John 1:1-3, 14 In the beginning was the Word: The Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through Him all things came to be, not one thing had its being but through Him........The Word was made flesh, He lived among us, and we saw His glory, the glory that is His as the only Son of the Father full of grace and truth.

So, going back to Genesis when God said, "Let US make man in OUR image" the "us" and "our" is referring to the Father and Christ (the Son) whom St. John says was with the Father since the beginning. It also includes the Holy Spirit because the Bible reveals that the Holy Spirit is also God the Creator (Job 33:4). Angels did not create the Heavens and the earth. They also did not create man. We are in the image of God, not in the image of angels.

In Christ,
Selene

Click to expand...

I agree that Jesus was the word and existed in heaven and was a co creator with God. However, his power to create came from God, not himself so it cannot be said that Jesus acted alone in the creation of the universe.
Proverbs 8:22-31 gives us a deeper understanding of Jesus role with his Father in heaven.
22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth....27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men."

This verse is rightly attributed to Jesus in his earliest existence with God. We know that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation so this verse could only be applying to him. But notice how he ascribes the creation, not to himself, but to God. This shows that while it may be true that Jesus had a hand in the creation of the universe, he recognized that God was the author. He is called 'the master worker' because he worked along with his Father much like an apprentice works along with a skilled tradesman. The apprentice does do a lot of the work, but it is at the direction of the tradesman. This was the same with Jesus and his Father...he worked along under his fathers guidance and this is why he called the productive land his fathers land in vs 31.

fivesense said:

Actually, Pegg, it is "will-be-ing-was, the tetragrammaton YHWH. Keep up the good effort, I'm enjoying your handling of the word.

fivesense

Click to expand...

hey,

do you mean the meaning of the tetragrammaton is 'will being was' ?

Selene said:

Sorry Fivesense, but the Bible did say that Christ is God and humbled Himself to become human:

1 Philippians 2:5-7 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Me? I could never say that I am equal with God. No human can except Christ. Christ is the only one who can claim to be equal with God because He is God. God bless!

In Christ,
Selene

Click to expand...

What does "in the form of" mean? Why did the Holy Spirit not say "Christ Jesus, Who, being God" if He was God? It does not say He was God here in this passage, it says "being in the form of God". May God grant you the light to see the difference.

Equality with God denotes separateness, and denies sameness. In creative power, in glory, there is no doubt that the Firstborn of all creation was "equal to God". But was He His own Father? That would impossible. God does not ask us to be unreasonable, He want us to use our intelligence and our mind.

fivesense

fivesense said:

What does "in the form of" mean? Why did the Holy Spirit not say "Christ Jesus, Who, being God" if He was God? It does not say He was God here in this passage, it says "being in the form of God". May God grant you the light to see the difference.

Equality with God denotes separateness, and denies sameness. In creative power, in glory, there is no doubt that the Firstborn of all creation was "equal to God". But was He His own Father? That would impossible. God does not ask us to be unreasonable, He want us to use our intelligence and our mind.

fivesense

Click to expand...

Hello Fivesense,

If you had looked up the Greek words for " form" and "equality," you would not be asking me those questions. The Greek word for " form" is "morphe," which means the external appearance. The Greek word for equal used in Philippians 2:6 is "isos," which means "equal in quantity or quality." In other words, it means "exactly the same in quantity and quality. To be equal in quantity and quality means to be the same in every way. Are you equal with God? Who on earth is equal with God?

Do you have the external appearance of God? I know that you are created in the image of God. Image of God is not the same as having His external appearance. The Greek word for "image" is "eikon." Man has been created in the "image" (eikon) of God. Man was never created in the form (morphe) of God. Christ, on the other hand, is the onlly one who is the "image" (eikon) AND form (morphe) of God. So, what St. Paul said is this:

1 Philippians 2:5-7 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus. Who, being in the form (External Appearance) of God, thought it not robbery to be equal (Equal in quantity and quality) with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form (External Appearance) of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:


Furthermore, if we read the entire sentence and not just a couple of words, it is saying that Christ humbled himself by taking the "EXTERNAL APPEARANCE" (Morphe) of a servant and the likeness of man. We already know that Christ took upon himself the form (Morphe) of a servant, now let's look at the Greek word for "likeness." The Greek word for "likeness" is "homoloma," which means "resemblance". What St. Paul is saying is that Christ was made in the resemblance of men. Now, If Christ was a man to begin with, how was He made into the likeness of men? This sentence would only make sense if Christ was NOT a man to begin with.

Of course, you could say that Christ was not born a man. He was a spirit to begin with. Well, if that was the case, we were all spirits to begin with, but since when were we created in the form (Morphe) of God and since when is man equal with God?

In Christ,
Selene

evanom said:

Now i understand, you're a Jehovah's witness! By the way stauros can also mean cross. So how do u know if it was one or the other? Study Roman secular history (try to forget about your personal religious indoctrination).

Click to expand...

the Romans had their own methods of execution, but so did the jews. We know the romans were in control of jerusalem, and those whom they were executing were Jews, not romans. Because the Romans had a difficult relationship with the Jews, they would do things as best they could according to Jewish tradition so as to keep the peace with the jewish people.

Did you realise that that under the mosaic law the isrealites had an execution stake for criminals? It is mentioned in Deut 21:22-23 and the instrument was not a cross but a piece of wood.
22 “And in case there comes to be in a man a sin deserving the sentence of death, and he has been put to death, and you have hung him upon a tree (heb. otz), 23 his dead body should not stay all night on the tree; but you should by all means bury him on that day, because something accursed..." The hebrew word otz is translated as both 'tree' & 'wood' which is an upright structure such as a pole or stake.

Paul mentions this same mosaic law at Gal 3:13 in relation to Jesus execution:
"Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: “Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake (Gr. Xylon).” The word he used here is Xylon which in greek means tree but can also mean wood. The evidence is that he was using the equivalent word which was being used in the hebrew scriptures. The execution method was the same...it was what the Romans complied with according to Jewish law which is why Jesus body had to be removed before nightfall...that was also in line with the requirement of the mosaic law.

If Jesus was executed in any other way, then there would be no need to comply with the mosaic law about burying the body before sundown.

trulyelmo said:

I am replying to the person that wanting me to back up my belief of "Jesus is God"

Ephesians 5:20
Giving thanks always unto God in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ

How God and Jesus be separated from each other in this verse?

Colosians 3:11
And whatsoever ye do in word or deed in the name of our Lord Jesus giving thanks to God and the Father by him

God does not give power to Jesus but rather, Jesus is God, "always having the power" as God in himself.

If you do not understand please ask and wait a coupleof days and I will respond because I have to go to the library to use computer.

Click to expand...

There are other explanations for how Jesus and God are one.

Look at Jesus words about the oneness of his own disciples:

John 17:22. “I have given them the glory which you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.”

Unity is a oneness. Jesus was in unity with God the Father and he said that his many disciples were also 'one' just as they were one.

It doesnt mean that all the disciples were the same person though, does it?

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel (G1694), which being interpreted is, God with us.

pegg and several other you are free to believe what you want, even that Jesus Christ is not God. Someday you will face Him, tell Him then to, OK!

Paul said:

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel (G1694), which being interpreted is, God with us.

pegg and several other you are free to believe what you want, even that Jesus Christ is not God. Someday you will face Him, tell Him then to, OK!

Click to expand...

Does this mean that you believe that when we do come face to face with Jesus, it is he who will judge us?

Pegg said:

its not so much a matter of 'interpretation' but its more a matter of 'translation'
There are numerous translations that show a different story. Notice their use of a full stop thus separating the two distinct subjects being spoken about.

The Riverside New Testament, Boston and New York. 1934
“and from whom by physical descent the Christ came. God who is over all be blessed through the ages! Amen.”

Revised Standard Version, New York.1952
“and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ. God who is over all be blessed for ever. Amen.”

Today’s English Version, American Bible Society, New York 1966
“and Christ, as a human being, belongs to their race. May God, who rules over all, be praised for ever! Amen.”

The New American Bible, New York and London 1970
“and from them came the Messiah (I speak of his human origins). Blessed forever be God who is over all! Amen.”

New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, Brooklyn 1950
“and from whom Christ sprang according to the flesh: God who is over all be blest forever. Amen.”

below is a scholars explanation of why the above translations are accurate in translating ho on as the beginning of an independent sentence referring to God and not Jesus.
In the original greek, the sentence is as follows:

kai ex hon ho khri‧stos′ to ka‧ta′ sar′ka, ] [ ho on e‧pi′ pan′ton, The‧os′ eu‧lo‧ge‧tos′ eis tous ai‧o′nas; a‧men′
out of whom The Christ according to flesh ] [ the one over all, God blessed into the ages Amen
>>>>>>>>>>JESUS>>>>>>>>>] [<<<<<<<<<GOD<<<<<<<<<<

The Authorship of the Fourth Gospel and Other Critical Essays, by Ezra Abbot, Boston, 1888, pp. 332-438. On pp. 345, 346 and 432 he says: “But here ho on is separated from ho khri‧stos′ by to ka‧ta′ sar′ka, which in reading must be followed by a pause,—a pause which is lengthened by the special emphasis given to the ka‧ta′ sar′ka by the to; and the sentence which precedes is complete in itself grammatically, and requires nothing further logically; for it was only as to the flesh that Christ was from the Jews.
On the other hand, as we have seen (p. 334), the enumeration of blessings which immediately precedes...naturally suggests an ascription of praise and thanksgiving to God as the Being who rules over all; while a doxology (a praise to God) is also suggested by the A‧men′ at the end of the sentence.

Basically it means that the end of the sentence is ascribing praise to God, not Jesus because the earlier part of the verse was completed by the use of the pause. By leaving out the fullstops, the subjects are merged into one which is why some translations appear to read as if Jesus is the God being blessed.

Click to expand...

Hello Pegg,

According to Strong's biblical translation, Romans 9:5 is

ὧν οἱ πατέρες καὶ ἐξ ὧν ὁ Χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας ἀμήν

hos patēr kai ek hos kata sarx Christos on epi pas theos eulogētos eis eulogētos amēn
.
The Greek and Hebrew Bible never had any commas. The King James Version is the most accurate translation among the Protestant Bibles. The Greek word "on" is translated into English as "being." So, the meaning is translated as follows:

Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], (BEING) over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
"
Therefore, the Greek word "on" is describing Christ. It is saying that Christ is overall God

I agree that there is only one true God whom we should worship. However, the term 'God' is a term which implies something powerful or mighty....it is only a descriptive word just as Lord is descriptive of ones position so god is descriptive of ones position or power.
In fact, the hebrews had a word for someone who was 'godlike'...that word is me‧’elo‧him′ and is often translated as 'angels' or 'messengers'
In Psalm 8:5 the word is used prophetically with regard to Jesus becoming human: 5 You also proceeded to make him a little less than godlike (me'elo.him) ones..."

And Paul said something similar about jesus taking on a lower position and used the word 'angels' at Hebrews 2:7 You made him a little lower than angels; with glory and honor you crowned him, and appointed him over the works of your hands

The term 'god' is also applied to the Isrealites at Psalm 82:6 “I myself have said, ‘YOU are gods,
And all of YOU are sons of the Most High

At 2 Cor 4:4 Satan is called the 'god of this system'

So its not significant that we see Jesus being called a god...in fact it is to be expected because as a powerful spirit he IS existing in Gods form....God is a spirit and so all spirit persons can be said to be in Gods form.

Click to expand...

What you quote in Hebrews is exactly what Psalms 8:5 meant. Psalms 8:5 is actually saying is that man (including Jesus) was made less than the angels. We know that because that is found in Hebrews 2:7-9.

Hebrews 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

It's very important to study the people's culture and not just their language alone. The Jews never saw the angels or men as God. In the Hebrew language, God is a noun. It is not an adjective. The Hebrews never believe men or angels to be God or like God, which is the reason why they tried to kill Jesus because Jesus made Himself equal to God in every way:

John 10:33-34 The Jews asnwered him, "We are not stoning you for doing a good work but for blasphemy: you are only a man and you claim to be God."

As you can see from this verse, it was never in the Jewish culture to believe that men is God or even godlike. In the next verse, Jesus explain the meaning of Pslams 82:6

John 10:335 "Is it not written in your Law: I said, you are gods? So the Law uses the word gods to those whom the word of God was addressed, and scripture cannot be rejected."

According to Jesus, the Law uses the word "gods" to the magistrates and only to the magistrates whose function made them in a sense "gods" because judgement is God's (See Dt. 1:17; 19:17; Ex. 21:6; Ps 58.) However, this does not make man God or gods. In here, Christ is not saying that men are gods or should be called "gods." There is only one God and no other gods (Dt. 4:35). God made that clear since the beginning. So, now we have a clearer picture of what Psalms 82:6 means through Christ in the New Testament.

As for Satan, he is a fallen angel. He is not God nor is he a god, although he would like to be one. There is only one God and no other gods. The gods whom the pagans worshipped are also called gods. Are they really gods? For example, look at the Scripture below:

Exodus 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I [am] the LORD.

The word "elohiym" is used for "gods of Egypt." Does this mean that there are actually other gods (elohiym) that exist? No because we already know that there is only one Elohiym and no other elohiyms. So, who are these "elohiyms" of Egypt? They don't exist.

Paul also said that when they are resurrected to heaven, they will be given the same resurection as Christ received at Romans 6:15 "For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall certainly also be [united with him in the likeness] of his resurrection "
Im sure you dont believe that being resurrected in Jesus likeness will make these ones Jesus. That is kind of what you are saying about God and Jesus....because Jesus existed in Gods form he must be God. Yet here we see that even some from among mankind will be given the likeness of Jesus when they are resurrected.

Click to expand...

"To be in likeness of His death" means that we will have a glorified body like Christ. It does not mean that we will become Christ because Christ is God. We will never be God. Christ rose from the dead in both body and soul. When we die, our bodies are left rotting in the ground, but our souls will be united with God. On Christ's second coming,our bodies will rise and be reunited with our souls....then we become in likeness of Him in death for at that time, we would have risen in both body and soul. Of course, this does not mean that we become God.

I agree that Jesus was the word and existed in heaven and was a co creator with God. However, his power to create came from God, not himself so it cannot be said that Jesus acted alone in the creation of the universe.
Proverbs 8:22-31 gives us a deeper understanding of Jesus role with his Father in heaven.
22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth....27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men."

This verse is rightly attributed to Jesus in his earliest existence with God. We know that Jesus was the firstborn of all creation so this verse could only be applying to him. But notice how he ascribes the creation, not to himself, but to God. This shows that while it may be true that Jesus had a hand in the creation of the universe, he recognized that God was the author. He is called 'the master worker' because he worked along with his Father much like an apprentice works along with a skilled tradesman. The apprentice does do a lot of the work, but it is at the direction of the tradesman. This was the same with Jesus and his Father...he worked along under his fathers guidance and this is why he called the productive land his fathers land in vs 31.

Click to expand...

My sister, St. John not only said that the Word was with God. He also said that the Word was God.

In Christ,
Selene

I thought just like the holy spirit is in me, the god head being 3 sep things all have there spirits in one another and they have the same nature. Just like any family shares the same nature.

And why is it do hard to understand that god could die on the cross because the corrupted man flesh he took the form in died releasing his spirit. Easy to understand. He died an earthly death just like we do. but we dont really "die" we go into spirit form and await our new bodies. But he has his already because hes god and god is glorified.

Selene said:

Hello Pegg,

According to Strong's biblical translation, Romans 9:5 is

ὧν οἱ πατέρες καὶ ἐξ ὧν ὁ Χριστὸς τὸ κατὰ σάρκα ὁ ὢν ἐπὶ πάντων θεὸς εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας ἀμήν

hos patēr kai ek hos kata sarx Christos on epi pas theos eulogētos eis eulogētos amēn
.
The Greek and Hebrew Bible never had any commas. The King James Version is the most accurate translation among the Protestant Bibles. The Greek word "on" is translated into English as "being." So, the meaning is translated as follows:

Whose [are] the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ [came], (BEING) over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
"
Therefore, the Greek word "on" is describing Christ. The word "blessed" is the adjective that described God. It is saying that Christ is overall God

Click to expand...

Hi Selene,

Unfortunately not all scholars of greek agree with that. this is why it has been translated differently in some translations.

Selene said:

It's very important to study the people's culture and not just their language alone. The Jews never saw the angels or men as God. In the Hebrew language, God is a noun. It is not an adjective. The Hebrews never say men or angels as God, which is the reason why they tried to kill Jesus because Jesus made Himself equal to God in every way:
John 10:33-34 The Jews asnwered him, "We are not stoning you for doing a good work but for blasphemy: you are only a man and you claim to be God."

Click to expand...

The problem here is that the jews misunderstood what jesus meant when he said he was Gods Son. They believed that he was claiming to have a prehuman existence with God in heaven...that he existed as a spirit person just as God is a spirit person. That is what they were objecting to. Jesus tried to correct them by reminding them that being a son of God is perfectly natural for all of Gods children when he said in John 10:35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, 36 do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?

Can you explain why Jesus would repeat that he is Gods Son, and not God? And he was quoting from Ps 82:6 “I myself have said, ‘YOU are gods, And all of YOU are sons of the Most High" to try and reason with them that calling himself Gods Son was nothing unusual because even they were called gods AND Gods Sons.

Selene said:

As for Satan, he is a fallen angel. He is not God nor is he a god, although he would like to be one. There is only one God and no other gods. The gods whom the pagans worshipped are also called gods. Are they really gods? For example, look at the Scripture below:

Exodus 12:12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I [am] the LORD.

The word "elohiym" is used for "gods of Egypt." Does this mean that there are actually other gods (elohiym) that exist? No because we already know that there is only one Elohiym and no other elohiyms. So, who are these "elohiyms" of Egypt? They don't exist.

Click to expand...

I agree that other gods are not real gods. But would you say that Satan is not real?
Satan has set himself up in opposition to Gods rulership and this is how he has made himself a god. Of course he is not the true God, but he certainly sits in the position of a god according to John at 2 Cor 4:4 “the god of this system of things [who] has blinded the minds of the unbelievers.”

It seems that the christians certainly believed that Satan was a god who was in control of this world. He is a god because of the position he holds....god is nothing more then a title. I guess that is why the Hebrew scriptures have the name of God over 7,000 times therein...YWHY or Jehovah is the personal name of the God of the bible...the True God.

Selene said:

My sister, St. John not only said that the Word was with God. He also said that the Word was God.

In Christ,
Selene

Click to expand...

I dont think it is grammatically correct in any language to say that someone is 'WITH' another person but 'IS' that other person.
Its interesting that many translators use a definite article (a, the) in hundreds of verses which do not have a definite article in the original greek, but they leave it out of this particular verse. The verse needs to have a definite article for the reason that two individuals are being spoken of...the word and God....John tells us that the Word is WITH God. This implies that there are two individuals, not one.

Pegg said:

Does this mean that you believe that when we do come face to face with Jesus, it is he who will judge us?

Click to expand...

Is that what I said?

Paul said:

Is that what I said?

Click to expand...

you said

"Someday you will face Him, tell Him then to, OK! "

If we face Jesus and tell him that we dont believe he is God, what will the outcome be?

Pegg said:

The problem here is that the jews misunderstood what jesus meant when he said he was Gods Son. They believed that he was claiming to have a prehuman existence with God in heaven...that he existed as a spirit person just as God is a spirit person. That is what they were objecting to. Jesus tried to correct them by reminding them that being a son of God is perfectly natural for all of Gods children when he said in John 10:35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, 36 do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?

Can you explain why Jesus would repeat that he is Gods Son, and not God? And he was quoting from Ps 82:6 “I myself have said, ‘YOU are gods, And all of YOU are sons of the Most High" to try and reason with them that calling himself Gods Son was nothing unusual because even they were called gods AND Gods Sons.
[/color]

Click to expand...

Hi Pegg,

Jesus was claiming to be "The Son" the very same Son that Isaiah prophesized in Isaiah 9:6.....the one that says His name will be called "Mighty God, Everlasting Father. etc." This is why the Scriptures says that the Jews wanted to stone Him because Christ was claiming to be God. Isaiah said that the Son will be named "Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Wonderful, Counsellor, and Prince of Peace" because that is who He is. When Christ claim to be "the" Son of God, He was referring to the Son spoken about in Scripture by the prophet Isaiah. It is considered blasphemy to claim to be God. It is also a sin to claim to be God. It's the sin of pride.

Jesus explained Psalms 82:6. He said, "So the Law uses the word gods to those whom the word of God was addressed, and scripture cannot be rejected." in John 10:35. The word "gods" is not used to mean that they are gods (eloyim) but meant to mean that it was God who addressed them through His judgement.

I dont think it is grammatically correct in any language to say that someone is 'WITH' another person but 'IS' that other person.

Click to expand...

This is why it is not easy to explain the Holy Trinity. Even we Catholics have a difficult time trying to explain it. The best way I can explain what St. John means when he stated the following. "In the beginning was the Word: The Word was WITH God and the Word WAS God" (John 1:1) is to use the Body of Christ.

As you know, Christ has only one body. We are the body of Christ. We are different persons in the body of Christ, but there is only one body of Christ. The body of Christ is made up of many different Christians (persons) from many parts of the world and of different nationalities and color. But in this body of Christ, all are one and the same because as St. Paul says, "There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28). St. Paul even goes on to describe each person's role in the Body of Christ (See 1 Corinthians 12). God is like that. There is only one God, but there are three different persons in one God. These three persons are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These three are diffrent but they are not separated. They are different but also one and the same. They are with God and one with God, which makes them "God."

In the beginning before anything was ever created, God was the only one in existance. And He existed as three persons. The Bible says that "God is love."(1 John 4:8). Love is never alone. Love means that one is in a relationship. God has always been in a relationship because that is what Love is.

In Christ,
Selene

Selene said:

Hi Pegg,

Jesus was claiming to be "The Son" the very same Son that Isaiah prophesized in Isaiah 9:6.....the one that says His name will be called "Mighty God, Everlasting Father. etc." This is why the Scriptures says that the Jews wanted to stone Him because Christ was claiming to be God. Isaiah said that the Son will be named "Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Wonderful, Counsellor, and Prince of Peace" because that is who He is. When Christ claim to be "the" Son of God, He was referring to the Son spoken about in Scripture by the prophet Isaiah. It is considered blasphemy to claim to be God. It is also a sin to claim to be God. It's the sin of pride.

Click to expand...

this is what confuses me greatly. You say he claimed to be 'the son' but the Jews say he was claiming to be God...and Jesus said he was the 'Son'

So who is correct. How could the jews have been correct in saying Jesus claimed to be God, when he clearly stated that he was 'the Son'?

There is a big difference between a son and a father. A son is not the father....a son is the prodigy of a father. So how could it be said that Jesus was claiming to be the Father?

does my question make sense?

Selene said:

This is why it is not easy to explain the Holy Trinity. Even we Catholics have a difficult time trying to explain it. The best way I can explain what St. John means when he stated the following. "In the beginning was the Word: The Word was WITH God and the Word WAS God" (John 1:1) is to use the Body of Christ.

As you know, Christ has only one body. We are the body of Christ. We are different persons in the body of Christ, but there is only one body of Christ. The body of Christ is made up of many different Christians (persons) from many parts of the world and of different nationalities and color. But in this body of Christ, all are one and the same because as St. Paul says, "There is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:28). St. Paul even goes on to describe each person's role in the Body of Christ (See 1 Corinthians 12). God is like that. There is only one God, but there are three different persons in one God. These three persons are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. These three are diffrent but they are not separated. They are different but also one and the same. They are with God and one with God, which makes them "God."

Click to expand...

But if we take on board the fact that all christians become a part of the body of Christ, then it cannot be said that the trinity is made up of only 3....if christians are included in that body, then the trinity must contain millions.

I think it is more reasonable that when Jesus said that he and the father are one, he meant it in the same way as he meant it for the christians.... we are one in unity. Jesus was in unity with the Father as christians are in unity with Christ. By unity, all are made into one body...but we are still indiviuals just as Jesus is a separate individual from his father.


Now i just have one last line of reasoning about this. Tell me, if Jesus is God then it is only right that Jesus is also our judge. He must be the judge of all the earth because as you've stated, he is the ONLY God.

Yet, he himself says at John 12:44-50
44 However, Jesus cried out and said: “He that puts faith in me puts faith, not in me [only], but in him [also] that sent me; 45 and he that beholds me beholds [also] him that sent me. 46 I have come as a light into the world, in order that everyone putting faith in me may not remain in the darkness. 47 But if anyone hears my sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I came, not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48 He that disregards me and does not receive my sayings has one to judge him. The word that I have spoken is what will judge him in the last day; 49 because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak. 50 Also, I know that his commandment means everlasting life. Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told me [them], so I speak [them].”

Who is the one Jesus is speaking of as our judge if it is not himself?

Wow.
For a discussion that started with “not wanting a debate”, we’ve certainly had a debate!
I’m really not going to weigh in here as enough people have covered this from so many points that all I would do is add to the existing confusion.
I will, however, give a cautionary note.
God is infinite. God is outside of time. We are finite. We are (currently) buried in time. We will never be able to properly understand God this side of perfection (in whatever timeframe and shape this occurs in). What I do know is that whatever understanding I have will be wrong, misguided and so pickled in my limited understanding and grasp of this Almighty, Infinite God as only to be of some use after a massive dose of the Holy Spirit’s intervention. Therefore I pray that the Holy Spirit enlighten you as you read.
Know this: You will not understand the true nature of God in your current form.
Personally I run under the illusion that I have a working knowledge of God for where I am in my life. This helps me function on a day-to-day basis. In this working knowledge of God (that I know must be wrong) I understand God as being so vast that for me to even have a hope of grasping the edges of Him, He has had to present Himself in three forms so I can begin to appreciate Him. I’m suspecting that there is also some community aspect of God that will probably cause an embolism if I ever do get my head around it (there is an argument that requires God to know in union to know about union).
God, being infinite, can really do whatever He wants. By definition He can be wherever He wants, do Whatever He wants, whenever He wants with no restrictions, limitations or conflicts. If He wants to die on the Cross, He can. I’m certainly not going to tell Him that He can’t because I can’t understand how this works. As a working understanding I believe that the Father sends the Son by the power of the Spirit. I’m not going to read into this more than that. I’m not going to create a hierarchy where none seems to exist, nor try and divide the nature of any of them based upon me not being able to get my head around it.
Try to concentrate on the important stuff. You are the bride, JC is your future hubby and your task for the moment is to fall madly and passionately in love with your future hubby.