then you are one of the lucky ones privileged to read the bible in both Greek and Hebrew
Thankfully we have the work of scholars who have shared their knowledge of these languages with us so that we can also understand what was originally written.
Father, Son, Holy Ghost
- Thread starter mtalamai
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
then you are one of the lucky ones privileged to read the bible in both Greek and Hebrew
Thankfully we have the work of scholars who have shared their knowledge of these languages with us so that we can also understand what was originally written.
Selene
New Member
Hi Pegg,
The problem is that original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts do not exist anymore. Also, I'm sure that Greek and Hebrew idioms need to be understood. By the way, my priest said that he understands Latin, so I will be meeting with him on Wednesday after Mass, so he can explain why there are there three different words for the word "God" in Latin.
In Christ,
Selene
You will want to take a look at THE MASSORAH.
Quoted from Appendix 30 from the Companion Bible edited by E.W. Bullinger
30. THE MASSORAH.
All the oldest and best manuscripts of the Hebrew Bible contain on every page, beside the Text (which is arranged in two or more columns), a varying number of lines of smaller writing, distributed between the upper and lower margins. This smaller writing is called the Massorah Magna or Great Massorah, while that in the side margins between the columns is called the Massorah Parva or Small Massorah.
The illustration given on p. 32 is a reduced facsimile of a Hebrew MS. (16 1/4 inches x 12 3/8), written in a German hand, about the year A.D. 1120.
The small writing in the margins in this particular MS. is seen to occupy seven lines in the lower margin, and four lines in the upper; while in the outer margins and between the three columns is the Massorah Parva.
The word Massorah is from the root masar, to deliver something into the hand of another, so as to commit it to his trust. Hence the name is given to the small writing referred to, because it contains information necessary to those who trust the Sacred Text was committed, so that they might transcribe it, and hand it down correctly.
The Text itself had been fixed before the Massorites were put in charge of it. This had been the work of the Sopherim (from saphar, to count, or number). Their work, under Ezra and Nehemiah, was to set the Text in order after the return from Babylon; and we read of it in Neh. 8:8 (*1) (cp. Ezra 7:6, 11). The men of "the Great Synagogue" completed the work. This work lasted about 110 years, from Nehemiah to Simon the first, 410 - 300 B.C.
The Sopherim were the authorized revisers of the Sacred Text; and, their work being completed, the Massorites were the authorized custodians of it. Their work was to preserve it. The Massorah is called "A Fence to the Scriptures," because it locked all words and letters in their places. It does not contain notes or comments as such, but facts and phenomena. It records the number of times the several letters occur in the various books of the Bible; the number of words, and the middle word; the number of verses, and the middle verse; the number of expressions and combinations of words, &c. All this, not from a perverted ingenuity, but for the set purpose of safeguarding the Sacred Text, and preventing the loss of misplacement of a single letter or word.
This Massorah is not contained in the margins of any one MS. No MS. contains the whole, or even the same part. It is spread over many MSS., and Dr. C. D. Ginsburg has been the first and only scholar who has set himself to collect and collate the whole, copying it from every available MS. in the libraries of many countries. He has published it in three large folio volumes, and only a small number of copies has been printed. These are obtainable only by the original subscribers.
When the Hebrew Text was printed, only the large type in the columns was regarded, and the small type of the Massorah was left, unheeded, in the MSS. from which the Text was taken.
When translators came to the printed Hebrew Text, they were necessarily destitute of the information contained in the Massorah; so that the Revisers as well as the Translators of the Authorized Version carried out their work without any idea of the treasures contained in the Massorah; and therefore, without giving a hint of it to their readers.
This is the first time that an edition of the A.V. has been given containing any of these treasures of the Massorah, that affect so seriously the understanding of the Text. A vast number of the Massoretic notes concern only the orthography, and matters that pertain to the Concordance. But many of those which affect the sense, or throw any additional light on the Sacred Text, are noted in the margin of The Companion Bible.
Some of the important lists of words which are contained in the Massorah are also given, viz. those that have the "extraordinary points" (Ap. 31); the "eighteen emendations" of the Sopherim (see Ap. 33); the 134 passages where they substituted Adonai for Jehovah (see Ap. 32); and the Various Readings called Severin (see Ap. 34). These are given in separate Appendixes; but other words of any importance are preserved in our marginal notes.
Readers of The Companion Bible are put in possession of information denied to former generations of translators, commentators, critics, and general Bible students.
For further information on the Massorah see Dr. Ginsburg's Introduction the the Hebrew Bible, of which only a limited edition was printed; also a small pamphlet on The Massorah published by the King's Printers.
(*1) The Talmud explains that "the book" meant the original text; "distinctly" means explaining it by giving the Chaldee paraphrase; "gave the sense" means the division of words, &c. according to the sense; and "caused them to understand the reading" means to give the traditional pronunciation of the words (which were then without vowel points).
Why do most christian who read the Bible say that the - King James Version is the best translation
I can understand other transalations a little better but are they accuarate, and if they not totalally accurate, why are they
not trashed so that noone is mislead
My main question is what enlish bible protrays the greek and and hebrew manuscipts best, and if there isn't one best one
then why isn't on created?
I can understand other transalations a little better but are they accuarate, and if they not totalally accurate, why are they
not trashed so that noone is mislead
My main question is what enlish bible protrays the greek and and hebrew manuscipts best, and if there isn't one best one
then why isn't on created?
Before the 1611 KJV was produced, there were numerous English translations of the Bible in use such as the translations by Wycliffe, Tyndale and Coverdale. There was the Matthew’s Bible of 1537, the Great Bible of 1539, the Geneva Bible of 1560 and the Bishops’ Bible of 1568. Out of these it was the Geneva bible that readers viewed as the best and this was based on how easy it was to read and understand. Its the same with the KJV...when it was first created, it was an easy bible to read and understand. But I certainly wouldnt say that its the easiest to read and understand today because its not written in our modern tongue. I guess the reason its still referred to as the 'best' bible is because it has been viewed that way for so long that everyone simply believes it.
As to whether a translation is accurate or not, that all comes down to how serious one is about research when reading it. The easiest way to find differences is to compare with other translations to see if everyone has translated a passage/word/phrase the same way. If you do that, then you'll find some anomalies that you can do further research on by looking up the original words and if the bible has footnotes, look at the footnotes for they generally give you the original word and its meaning.
And there are some very good translations from the original greek and hebrew. If you look in the preface of the bible it should tell you what sort of translation it is. If it says its a literal translation from the original languages then its well worth getting your hands on. Most though are translations made from existing english translations such as the KJV. And paraphrased bibles are to be avoided at all costs because they can go way off what the original says. And the other thing to consider is that some translators openly change things around in line with their own sensitivities. Here is an example of what the 'Contemporary English Version' translators have done:
"The CEV uses gender-sensitive language for humanity and not for the Godhead. The translation also takes care to simplify "Bible" terms into more understandable words and phrases. An example can be found in Exodus 20:14 where the word adultery is translated Be faithful in marriage. The translators have also taken great care to translate the Greek phrase hoi Ioudaioi (literally, "the Jews") as "the Jewish leaders," especially in the Gospel of John (as in John 18:14). The CEV translators believe that the Greek phrase hoi Ioudaioi in the Gospel of John primarily refers to the Jewish leadership.[sup][citation needed][/sup] They believe that their translation of hoi Ioudaioi as "the Jewish leaders" is accurate and that it "will reduce the perception of Anti-Semitism in the New Testament."
So as you can see, sometimes they have an agenda which is reflected in how they choose to translate the bible. IMO this is wrong because its not being faithful to the writers of the bible. Translators have one job and that should be to give us the text as close to how the original writers wrote it. Thats also why i dont like paraphrased bibles...the translators can put in whatever they like and word things the way they want to rather then the way the original writer worded it.
Biblegateway.com has numerous versions that you can compare quite easily and quickly. type in a verse and choose a translation from the list. Its a great tool. If you google the version you are reading, you'll get to learn about how it was translated. The above quote comes from a wiki article on the CEV bible.
Truly: This post should really start a new topic, it would get more responses. I tried to do just that but it didn't work
Selene
New Member
I agree. We have gone from discussing the Holy Trinity to discussing scriptural translation. By the way, thanks for the information on the Massorah.
Simpleman
New Member
- Aug 27, 2010
- 34
- 1
- 0
Back to the cross thing, I hope you guys don't mind.
Matt 27:37 Above his head they placed the written charge against him, THIS IS JESUS, KING OF THE JEWS.
This was above his head, it was meant to mock him, it would of had to have been fairly large in order for people to be able to read it from the ground. The sign could not have been between his head and hands.
John 21:18-19 ...but when you are old you will stretch out your hands....(out as in cross execution, not up as in stake execution) History says Peter was crucified on a cross.
The 1874-75 Palestine Exploration Fund Journal- In 1873 the archeologist Clermont-Ganneau investigated a large burial catacomb, on the eastern slopes of the mount of Olives, near the road to ancient Bethany. They found many ossuaries. Clermont-Ganneau noted: "Several, not only the Greek, but also the Hebrew, are accompanied (inscribed) by crosses. The archeologist reported that a number of these ossuaries were also inscribed with a cross or the Hebrew name for Jesus, indicating that these deceased Jews from the first century where some of the first early Christians to follow Christ.
The Latin Vulgates The Latin Vulgates read CRUCIS (cross)
Ireaneus (student of Polycarp, a student of John) "The construction of the cross has five ends, two on the vertical and two on the horizontal, and one in the middle where the person attached with nails rested.
Justin Martyr (born approx A.D. 100) "The Lamb is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross. For one spit peirces right through from the lower parts up to the head, and another one pierces the Lamb across the back, to which are attached the legs of the Lamb"
Tertullian "But an entire cross is attributed to us, with its transverse beam....
Frederick T. Zugibe Professor of Pathology at Colombia University College of Physicians and Surgeons. Studied the different kinds of stauros execution. He hung students on a cross like structure, they were able to hang for hours on end. He hung students on a stake with there hands above their heads, they were suffering from asphyxiation withing minutes.
Hermann Moedder Australian Radiologist, also did experiments, he concluded that a person hung with their hands above their head, inability to breath would occur in about six minutes unless a person was allowed to take breaks. I am too lazy to look right now, but how long did Jesus and the two criminals hang before dieing.
Justus Lipsius In Justus book he shows various forms of Stauros, 15 are cross like structures, one is a stake. The Romans used both.
Obelisks If Christians had taught that Jesus was nailed to a stake, you can be sure the conspiracy fans would be screaming 'pagan addition'. One of the oldest and most prevalant pagan structure is the Obelisks, they are stakes stuck into the ground used in Osiris Sun worship, and pagan phallic worship. Sometimes they were crafted nicely, sometimes just a stake stuck in the ground. We can find them all over Greece and Rome, there is even one in washington.
Matt 27:37 Above his head they placed the written charge against him, THIS IS JESUS, KING OF THE JEWS.
This was above his head, it was meant to mock him, it would of had to have been fairly large in order for people to be able to read it from the ground. The sign could not have been between his head and hands.
John 21:18-19 ...but when you are old you will stretch out your hands....(out as in cross execution, not up as in stake execution) History says Peter was crucified on a cross.
The 1874-75 Palestine Exploration Fund Journal- In 1873 the archeologist Clermont-Ganneau investigated a large burial catacomb, on the eastern slopes of the mount of Olives, near the road to ancient Bethany. They found many ossuaries. Clermont-Ganneau noted: "Several, not only the Greek, but also the Hebrew, are accompanied (inscribed) by crosses. The archeologist reported that a number of these ossuaries were also inscribed with a cross or the Hebrew name for Jesus, indicating that these deceased Jews from the first century where some of the first early Christians to follow Christ.
The Latin Vulgates The Latin Vulgates read CRUCIS (cross)
Ireaneus (student of Polycarp, a student of John) "The construction of the cross has five ends, two on the vertical and two on the horizontal, and one in the middle where the person attached with nails rested.
Justin Martyr (born approx A.D. 100) "The Lamb is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross. For one spit peirces right through from the lower parts up to the head, and another one pierces the Lamb across the back, to which are attached the legs of the Lamb"
Tertullian "But an entire cross is attributed to us, with its transverse beam....
Frederick T. Zugibe Professor of Pathology at Colombia University College of Physicians and Surgeons. Studied the different kinds of stauros execution. He hung students on a cross like structure, they were able to hang for hours on end. He hung students on a stake with there hands above their heads, they were suffering from asphyxiation withing minutes.
Hermann Moedder Australian Radiologist, also did experiments, he concluded that a person hung with their hands above their head, inability to breath would occur in about six minutes unless a person was allowed to take breaks. I am too lazy to look right now, but how long did Jesus and the two criminals hang before dieing.
Justus Lipsius In Justus book he shows various forms of Stauros, 15 are cross like structures, one is a stake. The Romans used both.
Obelisks If Christians had taught that Jesus was nailed to a stake, you can be sure the conspiracy fans would be screaming 'pagan addition'. One of the oldest and most prevalant pagan structure is the Obelisks, they are stakes stuck into the ground used in Osiris Sun worship, and pagan phallic worship. Sometimes they were crafted nicely, sometimes just a stake stuck in the ground. We can find them all over Greece and Rome, there is even one in washington.
Years ago, LeBec and Barbet had concluded that a person hung by his arms overhead would suffocate in a manner of minutes, due to the inability of the lungs to expand and contract in such a position.
Miss Hepburn
Well-Known Member
This has got me thinking again about Jesus in the afterlife ...after being filled with love being with Him I think
I soon will be saying, "Now, let's go see our Dad, can we?"
For me it has always been about our Father - I believe that's what it is about for Jesus, too.
But, anyone can have whatever relationship they want with Them - I'm not trying to change anyone.
And what's the Word?
I say the Word is the unspeakable Name of God that we are not to take in vain and is to be hallowed,
and is spoken of in all the Scriptures throughout all cultures.
Similar threads
- Locked
