Daniel's 70Th Week: Warnings

RND · Aug 31, 2010

veteran said:
That's an argument pushed especially by Messianic Jews. Are you Jewish? I didn't know Christians were not allowed to worship any other day but only on Saturday. If we meet in worship on any other day of the week than Saturday, then that is false religion? Is that what you're saying? Christ made the Sabbath for man, not man for the Sabbath, as written.

Right, made for man, are you a man? If so the sabbath was created for you. God never blessed and sanctified another day.

I believe that. But how does that align with the doctrines of Historicism that you follow? Can you truly listen to Christ in His Word and mammon too?

In understanding that prophecy is the foretelling of the history before it happens it is easy to see how history has proved the prophecies of God to be true. As for the Christ and mammon comment I don't know where that came from.

Actually, if we allow God's Word to interpret itself, we see clearly that the final "one week" of the 70 weeks Daniel has NOT been fulfilled yet.

I would beg to differ. The 70th week was fulfilled when the Christ was "cut off" in the middle of it and when Christ was anointed...just like Daniel 9:24 said He would be.

The Romans in 70 A.D. certainly did not fulfill it, for they weren't able to get inside the Jerusalem temple to setup an abomination of idol worship, which is what the "abomination of desolation" is about. And, we were already given a pattern for it with Antiochus Epiphanes before Christ's first coming. Antiochus did make it inside the Jerusalem temple, sacrificed swine upon the altar and spread its broth around inside the temple, and even setup an altar to Zeus. Those who treat the 70 weeks prophecy as fulfilled often omit the Dan.11 & 12 chapter events which are linked to the Dan.9:27 "one week". How does doing that show the ability to let God's Word interpret itself?

The prophecy never says anything about Antiochus Epiphanes. The fourth beast comes out of Rome not Greece. He never ruled a kingdom and was easily overthrown by the Romans. Daniel 10 & 11 give the history of the rise of Rome and chapter 12 refers to the last days.

Then you would be saying that the physical temple standing in Jerusalem at Christ's first coming was literally Jesus. That's not the temple our Lord was referring to there in John 2 was it? He was referring to His Body and His crucifixion and Resurrection which was to happen. That's why He contrasted the Temple of His Body that would be destroyed and raised again in three days, vs. the physical temple that could not. I mean really, get a clue!!

You get a clue! The tabernacle/temple and all its attendant services represented Christ. When He compared His physical body to the temple He was speaking prophecy before it happened. He compared the two, His body and the temple both being destroyed.

This is why the insistence by the dispensationalist crowd really does a butchering of the fact that even if Jews do build another temple and sacrifice therein in means absolutely nothing. There is no need nor any prophecy that says another temple will be built. The temple is Christ and each individual believer is a stone therein.

What do you mean; are you trying to say the Jews building another temple in Jerusalem matters to me JUST BECAUSE I WARN OTHERS ABOUT IT FROM PROPHECY?

There is no prophecy that says a third temple will be built.

How could you come to such a crazy conclusion as that, unless YOU are the one trying to defend those Jews in doing that?

Re-read what I wrote. People that think the Jews need to build another temple because prophecy says so are missing the boat and believing a lie. No temple needed. Christ is the temple.

I'm starting to think that you are actually in favour of their building another temple to start up sacrifices again. I'm aware there's some Christian groups in America that have been sending heifers for sacrifice to the orthodox Jews in today's Jerusalem, thinking that's a way to bring Christ's second coming in faster. You're not in one of those deceived groups are you?

Of course not! I'm not a dispensationalist, Tim LaHaye/Darby/Dallas Theological parrot.

Wait a minute. Why would you say that the orthodox Jews in Jerusalem building another temple doesn't mean anything for today?

Because it doesn't! The last sacrifice has been offered and accepted.

That's like saying 'turn your head, don't watch what's going on in Jerusalem, you don't need to know'.

If Jerusalem fell off the earth tomorrow it wouldn't make a difference to my theology. What happens in Israel doesn't affect me.

That temple for the end is about prophecy in the last days, the very prophecy Paul gave in 2 Thess.2 about a false one coming to sit in it, and set himself up as God.

Christ is the temple so then it must mean that someone attempts to replace God and call himself 'God on earth'. Know anyone like that? I do.

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous"

“...We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty..." Pope Leo XIII, in Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae (The Reunion of Christendom), Encyclical promulgated on June 20, 1894.

"The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God...
"The Pope alone is called most holy...
"Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of hell.
"Moreover the superiority and the power of the Roman Pontiff by no means pertains only to heavenly things, but also earthly things, and to things under the earth, and even over the angels, whom he his greater than.
"So that if it were possible that the angels might err in the faith, or might think contrary to the faith, they could be judged and excommunicated by the Pope....
"...the Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power." Lucius Ferraris, in "Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica", Volume V, article on "Papa, Article II", titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility", #1, 5, 13-15, 18, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.

"[Pope] PIUS XI, Pontifex Maximus." Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (The Promotion of True Religious Unity), Encyclical promulgated on January 6, 1928.

That's why... it's an important event for ALL Christians to note!

Nope. What is important for Christians is that instead of encouraging Jerusalem to build a temple they need to firmly say it doesn't matter. Jesus is the temple.

But what you're saying is that people should remain blind to that event!! That's not what God's Word tells us to do; we're commanded by Christ to stay in Him 'watching'. Paul even gave more of the end time events in 1 Thess.5 when they shall say, "Peace and safety", and then "sudden destruction" comes upon them.

So we should start wars by building a temple that doesn't matter so Christ can come? Oh, I get it now. Loopy.

You're simply rambling, not making any sense, because it sounds like you are against Christian Churches to me. Who do you make yourself out to be?

Hardly. I asked a simple question. Do you really think not telling people, whether they be Jew or gentile, that the type of the temple that Christ represented in anti-type does what exactly? In other words what benefit is it when people like John Hagee don't tell Jews that building another temple means nothing because Christ is the temple? None of these fundamentalist like John Hagee, David Jeremiah, Tim LaHaye, Hal Lindsay, Jack Van Impe, etc., ever make mention of this obvious Biblical fact and that should be a great concern to anyone that attends any church that spouts such doctrine.

Bottomline to you, I AM NOT A DISPENSATIONALIST.

Yes you are! You're a classic dispy at that. You believe in the rapture (the silent one), that the 70th week is going to be fulfilled later (after the church is raptured), and that a new temple will be built.

I agree the doctrines of men called Dispensationalism are dangerous,

Then why do you spout their doctrines?

likewise are the doctrines of men called Preterism, Historicism, and Futurism are all dangerous.

Then how do you discern Bible prophecy?

What you are denying are the very signs of the end our Lord gave us in His Word to be watching, particularlly the evidence of the building of another temple in Jerusalem for the "abomination of desolation" to take place just prior to Christ's second coming.

See Rome. They have set themselve over the Christian church and most Christians follow their doctrines and don't even know it. Sunday is their day and in keeping Sunday you agree with Rome whether yoy choose to believe it or not.

If my fellow brethren in Christ listened to you, they would miss what that event is about with a false messiah coming to proclaim himself as God,

Look again at those quotes. Rome proclaims the Pope is God on earth.

"The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth." Quoted in the New York Catechism.

"Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God....dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority....I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do...wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God? Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods." Decretales Domini Gregori ix Translatione Episcoporum, (on the Transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Decretales, col. 205 (while Innocent III was Pope).

with the majority of the world bowing down to worship that false messiah in place of Christ (Rev.13; Matt.24; Mark 13; 2 Thess.2). THAT is a warning our Lord Jesus gave us in His Word. But, you don't care to heed that warning, but instead are busy telling others such an event means nothing.

That's right. The world has already 'wondered after the beast'.

Take a good long look at these pictures where all the world gathered to wonder after the beast.

http://www.boston.com/news/specials/pope/galleries/dignitaries_at_the_funeral/

See this whore even tells you who she is!

Rev 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

But that's alright, the longer you keep wanting to argue against those written prophecies linking to the building of another temple in Jerusalem, the more opportunity it gives me to warn my fellow-Christian brethren about it.

And the longer it leaves you denying that Christ is the temple and the last sacrifice and that building another temple or sacrificing another cow means absolutely nothing! You should be willing and ready to convey this to Jews readily. Of course it helps if you keep the sabbath, don't eat pigs, and understand the tabernacle services. Are you serious equipped to tell a Jew that they no longer have to keep the sabbath? I got news for you, they'll chew you up and spit you out. Peace out Vet. God bless.

veteran · Sep 1, 2010

rnd,

You obviously don't know what you're saying, for you won't find anywhere in my posts supporting Dispensationalism, nor a false pre-trib "secret rapture". I believe Christ comes like God's Word declares, AFTER the great tribulation.

You're obviously hallucinating, confused, and all mixed up with the doctrines of men you're on, which primarily appears to be Historicism. But I wonder, you probably are on a lot of Preterist doctrine too, since they also believe Daniel's 70 weeks was fulfilled in 70 A.D. Jerusalem. They also treat Christ's second coming as being history, back at that time too, which you apparently do also!

RND · Sep 1, 2010

veteran said:
rnd,

You obviously don't know what you're saying, for you won't find anywhere in my posts supporting Dispensationalism, nor a false pre-trib "secret rapture". I believe Christ comes like God's Word declares, AFTER the great tribulation.

Ah, I apologize then. But then there is still the issue of believing that Daniel's 70th week is future. Obviously based on the clear word of Daniel 9:24 it has already occurred. Jesus came "in the fullness (completeness) of time.

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

It can't be any more plain than this.

You're obviously hallucinating, confused, and all mixed up with the doctrines of men you're on, which primarily appears to be Historicism.

Hey it's better than being confused as you appear to be.

But I wonder, you probably are on a lot of Preterist doctrine too, since they also believe Daniel's 70 weeks was fulfilled in 70 A.D. Jerusalem.

Obviously you didn't read me well. I said this occured when Christ came.

They also treat Christ's second coming as being history, back at that time too, which you apparently do also!

Preterits believe the second coming happened already. I don't and no historicist does.

veteran · Sep 2, 2010

Well, Christ did not come in 70 A.D., nor was His second coming then. And the Romans didn't even fulfill what Antiochus did.

Jerusalem has been sieged something like 27 times in its history. And more than once it became subjected to false idol worship of pagans. That makes the "abomination of desolation" prophecy a multiple fulfillment type. And 70 A.D. was only a 'type', which is why one or more events of the Daniel prophecy did not occur in that time. There will be a final fulfillment of that abomination of desolation standing in the holy place at the end of this world, and that final one is yet to occur.

RND · Sep 2, 2010

veteran said:
Well, Christ did not come in 70 A.D., nor was His second coming then. And the Romans didn't even fulfill what Antiochus did.

Antiochus didn't fulfill anything and dispensationalist use him to say he is the "little horn" but clearly that isn't true. The "little horn" come up from among the ten horns.

Jerusalem has been sieged something like 27 times in its history.

It has.

And more than once it became subjected to false idol worship of pagans.

So true.

That makes the "abomination of desolation" prophecy a multiple fulfillment type. And 70 A.D. was only a 'type', which is why one or more events of the Daniel prophecy did not occur in that time.

I'm not arguing from a 70AD perspective. The house of Judah was left barren in Jesus' day when Jesus told them there house was left desolate.

There will be a final fulfillment of that abomination of desolation standing in the holy place at the end of this world, and that final one is yet to occur.

The Papacy and Rome.

http://www.pacinst.com/antichri.htm

http://www.hol.com/~mikesch/antichrist.htm

veteran · Sep 4, 2010

Don't have to be a Dispensationalist, nor Preterist, nor Historicist, nor Futurist to know the "little horn" of Dan.8 is the same one as the "vile person" in Dan.11. All one need to do is read, and of course be able to remember what they read. Albeit, some do have a problem remembering what they read.

The "little horn":
Dan 8:9-12
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
(KJV)

The "vile person":
Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(KJV)

RND · Sep 5, 2010

veteran said:
Don't have to be a Dispensationalist, nor Preterist, nor Historicist, nor Futurist to know the "little horn" of Dan.8 is the same one as the "vile person" in Dan.11. All one need to do is read, and of course be able to remember what they read. Albeit, some do have a problem remembering what they read.

The "little horn":
Dan 8:9-12
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
(KJV)

The "vile person":
Dan 11:31
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
(KJV)

Just so you know it wasn't Antiochus Epiphanes

http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/dan/epiphanes.html

veteran · Sep 6, 2010

RND said:
Just so you know it wasn't Antiochus Epiphanes

Yet we know what Antiochus Epiphanes did in 165-170 B.C. was not the one our Lord Jesus was speaking of, when He quoted the "abomination of desolation" prophecy from the Book of Daniel (Dan.9:27 and Dan.11:31 and Dan.12:11). Antiochus had already long been dead by the time of Christ's first coming.

That our Lord Jesus would mention the "abomination of desolation" prophecy at His first coming, while Antiochus had already been given as a pattern for it, that is how we know what Titus did in 70 A.D. did not fulfill the prophecy. Titus also like Antiochus, was only a pattern or type for a future fulfillment of the Daniel prophecy.

What the "abomination of desolation" is:

It's about the making of a "league" by the "vile person" of Dan.11. That's the confirming of a covenant in Dan.9:27. He will come to power with a small group of people, and will conquer with an army, and then end the daily sacrifice and place the abomination that makes desolate, turning the temple at Jerusalem into a pagan temple for false worship, setting up an idol in the holy place. Then he shall exalt himself above all that is worshipped.

Antiochus Epiphanes did most of that, but the Roman Titus did not. Per the Jewish historian Josephus (100 A.D), the temple caught fire while the Romans were trying to sieze it from the Jews inside it. The Romans in 70 A.D. never got as far as what Antiochus did back in 165 B.C. And there has never been another Jewish temple in Jerusalem since that time. That's why we are to look for another coming, and another temple in Jerusalem to fulfill that abomination that maketh desolate in toto.

Matt 24:15
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus was pointing specifically to the idea of an idol abomination inside the temple at Jerusalem. Antiochus setup an idol inside that temple in 165 B.C. and turned many to pagan Greek religion.The Romans did not., because that same temple was destroyed before they could repeat what Antiochus did. And by what Josephus covered of that history, the Romans apparently had all intentions of doing false idol worshp in that temple, because Titus wanted to preserve it.

Matt 24:23-28
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

At that same timing when those in Jerusalem see that abomination setup in the holy place, our Lord warns that if anyone says, "Lo, here is Christ, or there", don't believe it. The abomination of desolation is not about destruction of the temple; it's about the setting up of false worship in place of worship of The Father through His Son. Daniel 11 points that working out with the "vile person" who places the abomination that makes desolate. It's the idea of making the temple in Jerusalem a desolation of idol worship.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

The context from the previous 23rd verse is singular, as this 24th verse is also. The phrase "false Christs" is Greek 'pseudo-Christos', made up of two Greek words, 'pseudo' which means false, and Christos, which means Christ (singular). It's the idea of 'a pseudo Messiah'. And because our Lord Jesus is showing how some will say, "Lo, Christ is here", it can only mean those doing that will actually... think the true Christ has returned. Our Lord Jesus warns that will be a false one instead.

Our Lord also defines there how powerful in deception that false one will work, because if it were possible, even His elect would be deceived by those great signs and wonders that false messiah will work. We know Christ's elect won't be deceived by that working, but will instead make a stand against him.

In Rev.13:11 forward we're shown "another beast", associated with the "dragon" of that chapter and Rev.12, working those great wonders and miracles on earth in the sight of men, and will setup an image to the beast for all to bow in worship to. That working connects to our Lord's warning about Jerusalem, as also does Paul's warning about this false one coming in 2 Thess.2 to sit in the temple of God, to show himself that he is God, causing the "strong delusion".

25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, he is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, he is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.

Our Lord Jesus for emphasis repeats His warning about that false messiah coming.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(KJV)

In verse 27, our Lord Jesus gives a comparison of HOW His return will be. We will not being hearing others declare, "Lo, Christ is here, or there". Instead like Rev.1 and this 27th verse shows, Christ's true coming will be in a manner to where all peoples and all nations will immediately know it. Won't have to wait for someone to tell us He has returned.

In verse 28, that's the idea of the deceived being gathered to that pseudo messiah, prior to Christ's coming. Eagles don't go after dead carcases, but vultures do. Even that is given to show how Satan's host with that pseudo messiah will be an attempt to try and appear like eagles in the Salvation sense. It may even point to those who seek to 'fly away' with a pre-trib secret rapture. In the Luke 17 version of that, Christ's disciples ask Him where the first ones in the field (world) are 'taken' to. To those fake eagles is again what our Lord answered.

bud02 · Sep 10, 2010

To add my 2 cents here I would like to say that I come from RND's camp on this subject. My personal witness to this is, I spent many years listening to Dispensationalist. The Spirit in me, in the early years could never follow and confirm all the context. For example, all the believers being raptured and then latter on other finial rapture or return of Jesus gathering the new believers again? I listened over and over again but the leaps and presumptions were just to much, I learned the word and wanted on the Lord to show me. If I don't understand it I don't parrot it. Or as I told old friends I dont understand it and I cant witness this in the same power of the HS as I do the rest of the bible, but I'll tell you what they have told me.

A dispensationalist that knows his stuff will always refer to a new temple.
I am no scholar of Greek or Hebrew but a quick reference to your Strongs numbers will indicate that 2 Greek words are used to describe the English word temple. Now look at how Jesus and Paul uses these words.
When ever Jesus or Paul use them in clear connection with the temple as a building is not the same as the one they use to describe our bodies.

2 Th [sup]3[/sup]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;[sup]
4[/sup]Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Temple

Above in red is the word naio the same word both Jesus and Paul use.
[sup]Paul 2 Cor 6:16[/sup]And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.................................same word naio .

Jesus Destroy this temple and in 3 days I will rise it up again ...........................same word naio .

The word used for the building, temple is hiero, as used here below.
Mt 12:5 Jesus speaking.............[sup]5[/sup]Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
[sup]6[/sup]But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

I would have to ask you where the man of perdition, the man of sin will sit? In what temple? A building or human tent?

On to Danial chapter 9
Dispensationalist will also take you here, but this takes deductive reasoning to see the 3rd temple here.

[sup]27[/sup]And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

He being antichrist instead of Jesus Christ necessitates the need of a temple building. Dispensationalist insist that a 3rd temple is necessary so that this verse being interpreted as he "the antichrist can defile it, fulfilling the prophesy.

The use of the word covenant in conjunction with the father of lies is a telling indicator for me. A quick search on my Laridian KJV on my Palm tells me that this word "covenant " is used 292 times in the new and old testaments. My deductive reasoning or proper hermeneutics tells me its rather unlikely that this one instance of covenant is used in conjunction with mr bad guy instead of its proper 291 other usages, with God. The very definition of the word covenant does not fit the Dispensationalist interpretation. That the antichrist will make a "false" covenant with the Jews? with the sinister intention of leading them astray? The definition does not fit.
cov·e·nant (k

v

-n

nt)n.1. A binding agreement; a compact. See Synonyms at bargain.2. Law a. A formal sealed agreement or contract.b. A suit to recover damages for violation of such a contract.3. In the Bible, God's promise to the human race.v. cov·e·nant·ed, cov·e·nant·ing, cov·e·nants v.tr. To promise by or as if by a covenant.v.intr.

To enter into a covenant.
I say no covenant can be made by Satan. Jesus on the other hand broke bread and declared this is the NEW covenant. For one week with the Israel nation alone.
He caused the oblation and sacrifice......... in the midst of the week.........on the cross to be of no value cease............. he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease.
He declaired the temple desolate as He left it before going to the cross. Mathew 23:38.......Luke 13:35.

A few more points to consider I won't try to present my whole doctrine in one post.
[sup]Mark 1:13[/sup]And he was there in the wilderness forty days, tempted of Satan; and was with the wild beasts; and the angels ministered unto him.[sup]14[/sup]Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God[sup],15[/sup]And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

The time is fulfilled? what time? the end of 69 week and the beginning of the 70th.

One more point and then I'll shut up

Mathew 18:[sup]21[/sup]Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?[sup]
22[/sup]Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

I have heard this verse taught in churches many times. It is always used to indicate that we should always forgive our brother. What is really going on is Jesus is quoting Danial or better stated He is quoting Gabriel. 70 weeks are determined for you and your people. From the time of Abraham the Nation Israel, sometimes enjoyed and sometimes not, a special relationship with God under the old covenant. It was coming to an end and Jesus was confirming just that. Peter said my brother, How many times shall I forgive my brother Israelite. Jesus was then referring to the forgiveness that God had shown Israel above all other people was closing. This does not mean that Israel was locked out in no way would or could such a thing happen. But the promise of the scepter to Jude and to David was soon to be fulfilled. The special privileges "grace" shown to Judea for the sake and name of God was close at hand. All they had to do was believe on Jesus to leave the old and enter into the new covenant. To become free indeed to receive the promise to Abraham, to receive the Holy Spirit, but many didn't. Now the disciples and Jesus said that He had come for the House of Israel and the Jews. This continued until Stephen was stoned, then we read in Acts that he declared " I see the Son of Man STANDING at the right hand of God". Both David OT and Peter in Acts confirm that the Messiah will be seated at the right hand of God, making the earth His footstool. This confirms the completed work. Seated Eph 1:20 Heb 8:1
[sup]24[/sup] “ Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
To finish the transgression,
To make an end of sins,
To make reconciliation for iniquity,
To bring in everlasting righteousness,
To seal up vision and prophecy,
And to anoint the Most Holy.
[sup]25[/sup] “ Know therefore and understand,

But Stephen sees Him standing after being seated, ending 70th week following right behind the 69th. Not 69 weeks + 2000 years = 730,000 weeks between the 69th and 70th. The mission of the Jews was complete all they have to do is accept Jesus.

Shortly after this we see the calling of Saul "Paul" and Peter receives the vision, then he is sent to the house of Cornelius. When Stephen saw Jesus standing, that marked the end of the last week 70th in which the house of Israel and the Jews had exclusive privilege to receive the promise that was given to Abraham, the new covenant. The work of Christ was completed at the cross and for the next 3 1/2 years its was offered to the nation of Israel ALONE. 70 WEEKS ARE DETERMINED FOR YOUR PEOPLE. Those are not the words of a prophet those are the words of the Angel Gabriel. I won't go on any longer just notice the bold.

Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city...............isn't there an islamic mosque on the temple mound in Jerusalem now? Thought I seen that some where.

veteran · Sep 11, 2010

The order of events I've declared from our Lord's Olivet discourse has nothing to do with the doctrines of Dispensationalism. One does not have to be a dispensationalist to understand that order I described. I'm not a Dispensationalist. Neither do I believe in a Pre-trib "secret rapture" either, nor even a Pre-wrath rapture!!!

Sounds to me your TRYING to associate that order of events I described with the pre-trib rapture views, when they like yourself don't adhere to what I've written either!

There's only one time of Christ's coming and the gathering of His saints to Him. It WILL be AFTER the tribulation as He said in Matt.24. And it will be AFTER that pseudochristos He declared in Matt.24 comes to do wonders and miralces on earth to deceive... who? Most likely, those like yourself especially.

I've heard your Preterism/Historicist positions before. It's even a marker for the new age globalist's Churches springing up today who think we somehow are already in Christ's thousand years reign! I assume you probably treat Christ's second coming that is written in God's Word as if it has already happenned too!! You are under great confusion if you are under those false doctrines of men.

Temple Mount and Land of Israel Faithful Movement Documentary

This video documents the history of the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, and the work of the Temple Mount and Land of Israel Faithful Movement to reclaim it for the Jewish nation. Watch this exciting video and see what is happening in these final days. [Running time: 34:42 minutes] ... watch it here!

bud02 · Sep 11, 2010

veteran said:
The order of events I've declared from our Lord's Olivet discourse has nothing to do with the doctrines of Dispensationalism. One does not have to be a dispensationalist to understand that order I described. I'm not a Dispensationalist. Neither do I believe in a Pre-trib "secret rapture" either, nor even a Pre-wrath rapture!!!

Sounds to me your TRYING to associate that order of events I described with the pre-trib rapture views, when they like yourself don't adhere to what I've written either!

Not necessarily pointing at you personally but simply laying out my limited understanding of Rev, at the same time letting scripture interpret itself.

veteran said:
There's only one time of Christ's coming and the gathering of His saints to Him. It WILL be AFTER the tribulation as He said in Matt.24. And it will be AFTER that pseudochristos He declared in Matt.24 comes to do wonders and miralces on earth to deceive... who? Most likely, those like yourself especially.

Can I presume for a moment that you believe that the great tribulation will be a 7 year or your 70th week event?
In Mathew 24 Jesus first predicts the destruction of the temple. Then He speaks of the abomination of desolation.

Dan 9: [sup]26[/sup] “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; .................the cross
And the people of the prince who is to come ..................the Romans
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. .........................the Romans 70 ad
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined. ...................the abomination to come. The war that began in Rev ch 12.
[sup]27[/sup] Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, ..................abominations of the Jewish leaders. Jesus over turned the money changers tables "abomination"?
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”.........................................Mathew 24: 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.....the beginning of the war now look at Rev 12

Revelation 12

The Woman, the Child, and the Dragon
[sup]1[/sup] Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars. [sup]2[/sup] Then being with child, she cried out in labor and in pain to give birth.
[sup]3[/sup] And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. [sup]4[/sup] His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. [sup]5[/sup] She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. [sup]6[/sup] Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
Satan Thrown Out of Heaven

[sup]7[/sup] And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, [sup]8[/sup] but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[sup][a][/sup] in heaven any longer. [sup]9[/sup] So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[sup]10[/sup] Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. [sup]11[/sup] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. [sup]12[/sup] Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
The Woman Persecuted

[sup]13[/sup] Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. [sup]14[/sup] But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. [sup]15[/sup] So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. [sup]16[/sup] But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. [sup]17[/sup] And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.[sup][b][/sup]

Verse 1-6
1&2 Is Joseph dream the sun and the moon. The birth of Israel. The promised Seed. Being with child
[sup]5[/sup] She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. Caught up to God "the cross"
Next we see the destruction of Jerusalem the first part of Mt 24. the warning for the Woman "church" to flee.
Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

I would like to point out that I don't apply 7 year trib interpretation to 1260 literal days. I continue to see this as 1260 years as we also apply the 70 weeks prophesy 1 day = 1 year. For me this is another glaring problem with modern theologians. In some places they apply the proven standard but in Rev they apply the literal day for a day. If someone has scriptural insight about the change in interpretation of time from Danial to Rev please speak up.

From 7-12
We see the completed work of Jesus at the cross His returning to the Father and now war broke out. " nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer".
Luke 22:[sup]31[/sup] And the Lord said, “Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. I included this to show that the Dragon was still accusing before the throne right up to the cross.

The cross and then we read.
[sup]10[/sup] Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. [sup]11[/sup] And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

The warning to flee, the beginning of the great tribulation. Mt 24:15
Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
You can see that he, the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.
First persecuted the Woman that gave birth The Jewish Nation. History proves this out.
Now the Woman "true church" is in the wilderness. 1260 years. Not in Rome establishing a false church. You Veteran knowing the tribes of Joesph were in the wilderness, should also know that the Roman empire reached into England, to Hadrians wall 122 AD.

I'm about done, but the man of perdition in 2 Thes is yet future, also the same as the lamb with 2 horns "second beast". But as I pointed out in my previous post what kind of temple will he use? Rev 13s first beast is who? Maybe? And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

As you can see understanding the timing of events is critical. Just as critical as identifying Jesus in Danial 9:27 instead of Satan. Keeping these points in mine the NT and the stage in Rev is set. Please note that Rev 12 also indicates that Jesus last words were literal and true, It Is Finished. Gabriel said "To seal up vision and prophecy," Not completed but sealed. Now it easy to understand the dragons rage. The beginning of the great tribulation started when Jesus was seated at the right hand of God, Satan was forever cast out of heaven, we are still in the great trib. the second beast of Rev 13 is yet to make himself known. The son of perdition.

veteran · Sep 11, 2010

bud02 said:
Not necessarily pointing at you personally but simply laying out my limited understanding of Rev, at the same time letting scripture interpret itself.

Can I presume for a moment that you believe that the great tribulation will be a 7 year or your 70th week event?
In Mathew 24 Jesus first predicts the destruction of the temple. Then He speaks of the abomination of desolation.

Your taking pieces of Scripture and trying to force it to fit a certain view, which is not how to allow Scripture to interpret Itself.

Dan 9:26-27
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for Himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
(KJV)

God doesn't just throw around references like that "and the end thereof shall be with a flood" for no reason. That flood reference is one of the prophecies those on the doctrine you hold to have missed, nor do they have a clue what it represents.

The Revelation 12:6-17 Scripture is still future to us. The war in Heaven is not about Satan's original fall. That's why when it does happen, there is a connection with events in Heaven that would not be possible until after Christ's death on the cross. Rev.12:3-4 is about Satan's rebellion of old. Rev.13 is about the very end of this world, after Satan is cast out of Heaven to this earth, in person, or didn't you catch his title of the "dragon" in Rev.13 also?

Quit listening to man, and listen to God in His Word instead. And if you're going to say things like allowing Scripture to interpret Itself, then let Scripture do it. If you do that, you'll discover a lot of the Scripture timing you think you know is actually way off.

I was raised in a Protestant Christian Church that dwelt on the Preterist and Historicist doctrines (but not Full Preterism), they still taught Christ's future literal bodily coming, but none of the prophecies that show it. There has been a movement on earth to try and persuade believers that since Christ died on the cross, His Kingdom is manifest on earth today, and He is simply reigning from Heaven the thousand years of Rev.20 having already begun at His return among His disciples in that same era. That is not a doctrine from God in His Word. Instead, it is a dangerous doctrine of men that are deceived as to what times we actually are in today, with Christ's second coming still in our near future. One does not have to be a Futurist to understand that from God's Word as written.

So the thing to do, is to dispense with men's seminary doctrines of Preterism, Historicism, Dispensationalism, and Futurism all together, and instead take God's Word on Faith as written.

Paul · Sep 11, 2010

bud02 said:
Not necessarily pointing at you personally but simply laying out my limited understanding of Rev, at the same time letting scripture interpret itself.

Can I presume for a moment that you believe that the great tribulation will be a 7 year or your 70th week event?
In Mathew 24 Jesus first predicts the destruction of the temple. Then He speaks of the abomination of desolation.

Dan 9: [sup]26[/sup] “ And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; .................the cross
And the people of the prince who is to come ..................the Romans
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. .........................the Romans 70 ad
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined. ...................the abomination to come. The war that began in Rev ch 12.

Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
First, the Romans did not destroy the Temple in 70AD, there are many stones standing upon another.
Second, abomination of desolation is the Antichrist, Satan.
Third, the war mentioned in Rev 12 ended the 1st earth age, that is when Michael kicked Satan of the Mercy Seat.

I did read parts of the rest of your post and chuckled. You have a lot of work to do yet.

bud02 · Sep 11, 2010

Then please both of you Veteran and Paul,
veteran will you the translate rev 12, your quote "The Revelation 12:6-17 Scripture is still future to us". I understand the whole of nearly all rev is to take place in a 7 year time span,
and Paul I am sorry that it does not fit your first earth view. "Rev 12 ended the 1st earth age" scriptural proof please.
rebuttals without the facts as you understand them are rather useless.

It is apparent that nether of you understand just what was accomplished at the cross was.
Gen and He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise your heal.

Paul · Sep 11, 2010

bud02 said:
...
and Paul I am sorry that it does not fit your first earth view. "Rev 12 ended the 1st earth age" scriptural proof please.

...

"The war in Rev 12 ended the 1st earth age" is what I said. You will need to study Ezekiel 27 & 28. That's all I'm going to say about it right now.

bud02 · Sep 11, 2010

Paul said:
"The war in Rev 12 ended the 1st earth age" is what I said. You will need to study Ezekiel 27 & 28. That's all I'm going to say about it right now.

I see you reply (I did read parts of the rest of your post and chuckled. You have a lot of work to do yet.
You publicly chuckle, but have nothing else to say. I hate to point out the fact that I can get responses like that in the world all day long. It is rather a shame to find the same coming from a christian forum.

I'll just add that Satan was cast out of his heavenly abode, but did that mean he no longer came before God to accuse us?
Because that's what Rev 12 says. Perhaps you should read the book of Job.

[sup]6[/sup] Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. [sup]7[/sup] And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?”
So Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.” earth His new home

But you see after Jesus sat at the right hand of God, He closed that door, thats what Rev 12 is saying. "for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down". It is not saying Satan was primarily kicked out of heaven as we know. The accuser has nothing to accuse us of so long as we are in Christ. It would also be point less for him to accuse those who are not Christ's.

Just one more question, just when did Satan sit in the mercy seat? [quote you,,,,, Michael kicked Satan of the Mercy Seat. I believe this is what you meant but there is a typo.

Paul · Sep 11, 2010

bud02 said:
...

Just one more question, just when did Satan sit in the mercy seat? quote you,,,,, Michael kicked Satan of the Mercy Seat. I believe this is what you meant but there is a typo.

You didn't read, or at least you didn't understand Ezekiel 27 & 28.

bud02 · Sep 11, 2010

Paul said:
You didn't read, or at least you didn't understand Ezekiel 27 & 28.

I do know Ezekiel but you still fail to draw the connection, or make a point.
I've been looking threw your replies and see that this, or rather your reply to my post is pretty normal for you.
I quit looking when I found this reply from RND

Your unwillingness to answer a direct question is evasive and frankly it boarders on untrustworthy. I'll bet you go to church every Sunday.

There are many other members here that I enjoy reading. Their replies and views even though I may not completely agree I respect, some I think are dangerous but even posts like those sometimes hold points or pieces that can be beneficial.

Paul · Sep 11, 2010

bud02 said:
I do know Ezekiel but you still fail to draw the connection, or make a point.
I've been looking threw your replies and see that this, or rather your reply to my post is pretty normal for you.
I quit looking when I found this reply from RND

There are many other members here that I enjoy reading. Their replies and views even though I may not completely agree I respect, some I think are dangerous but even posts like those sometimes hold points or pieces that can be beneficial.

well, I'm sorry I don't do everything you want. I give people the Scripture to study so they can discover truth as they are able to see it.

Who do you think these verse refer to:
Eze 28:1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,
Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:
Eze 28:3 Behold, thou art wiser than Daniel; there is no secret that they can hide from thee:
Eze 28:4 With thy wisdom and with thine understanding thou hast gotten thee riches, and hast gotten gold and silver into thy treasures:
Eze 28:5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
Eze 28:6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God;
Eze 28:7 Behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness.
Eze 28:8 They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas.
Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.
Eze 28:10 Thou shalt die the deaths of the uncircumcised by the hand of strangers: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 28:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

veteran · Sep 11, 2010

bud02 said:
Then please both of you Veteran and Paul,
veteran will you the translate rev 12, your quote "The Revelation 12:6-17 Scripture is still future to us". I understand the whole of nearly all rev is to take place in a 7 year time span,
and Paul I am sorry that it does not fit your first earth view. "Rev 12 ended the 1st earth age" scriptural proof please.
rebuttals without the facts as you understand them are rather useless.

It is apparent that nether of you understand just what was accomplished at the cross was.
Gen and He shall bruise your head and you shall bruise your heal.

Why should I try to cover Rev.12:6-17 with you when you're already set that it has nothing for the future tribulation? Per the doctrine of men you've already shown, I have doubts you believe the "great tribulation" our Lord mentioned is still future to us.

And by the way, Satan's head is not bruised yet, for he is yet to be cast into the lake of fire. He's still at work; death is not literally destroyed just yet, for it has yet to go into the lake of fire with Satan at the end of this world. Dan.11 covers part of that too, but I'd say you've missed that as well as the 'flood mentioned in Dan.9:27.

Rom 16:20
20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.
(KJV)

And if Satan and death is not literally destroyed yet, in what way did our Lord Jesus defeat death upon His cross? Didn't Apostle Paul, when he spoke of the "new creature" idea, still leave room in that idea for our future redemption by Christ? If not, then why are the wicked still in power on this earth, and why aren't those who sleep in Jesus with us now, and why aren't we where Christ is now, since He promised to gather us where He is?

Daniel's 70Th Week: Warnings

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