How Could Have Satan Sinned?

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ReChoired

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When he was in Heaven and there's no sin in Heaven? Also, would God forgive him if he repented?
Yes, Lucifer was in Heaven before he sinned, and sinned in Heaven, even as Adam was in the Garden of Eden on earth and there was no sin it it, and he sinned therein:

2Pe_2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Tartarus, a place of darkness, out of Heaven into the blackness of 'space', where they eventually came to this newly created world], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jud_1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate [arch-offices], but left their own habitation [places God them to occupy, their purpose], he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of [child of, by creation] the morning [Jesus Christ, the Morning Star]! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Isa 14:16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
Isa 14:17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
Isa 14:18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house.
Isa 14:19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
Isa 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Eze 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus [the real Ruler of Tyrus, was not a person of mankind, but the fallen archangel Lucifer/satan/Leviathan (King over all the children of pride; Job 41:34)], and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God [this Eden was not the one on Earth, but the one that existed before in Heaven, Genesis 2:8, for the one on earth was not 'created', it was "planted", that is transplanted from the one in Heaven, where God Himself dwells, Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 12:2,4; Revelation 2:7]; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God [the original Mount Zion in Heaven itself]; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
Eze 28:16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
Eze 28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.​

Lucifer argued with God in Heaven, and convinced others (nearly half; Revelation 12:4) of his arguments (see Ezekiel 28, "merchandise", "traffick", in other words trading in thoughts/ideas/speeches).


Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.​

As God dealt with Cain:

Gen_4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.​

As God dealt with Judas in mercy, even to the very last:

Joh 13:4 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments; and took a towel, and girded himself.
Joh 13:5 After that he poureth water into a bason, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.
Joh 13:12 So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you?​

As God has dealt with all, He also dealt with Lucifer in Heaven:

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
 
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ReChoired

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When he was in Heaven and there's no sin in Heaven? Also, would God forgive him if he repented?
Continued:

The Son of God pled with Lucifer, personally, when he had begun to have his first doubts:

Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Rev_3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.​

The Character of God is unchanging:

Mal_3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Psa_102:27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

Heb_1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.​

God's character is love itself:

1Jn_4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jn_4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.​

Exo 34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.​

Before the events of Revelation 12:7, and "war", which began with words, and ended in an attempt by force itself, Jesus had gone to Lucifer, as well as other angels with Him (Matthew 18) and pled with Lucifer personally, and once Lucifer Left His arch-office, and began to disseminate his foreign ideas among the other angels, God let the tree of evil grow, so that all may see its fruit and understand:

Psa_37:35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.​

In Revelation 17, we see the 7 (and even 8) branches of the tree of evil, the tree of darkness, come to the full. All will know. The Heavenly angels were convinced at the tree of Life (the Cross, Calvary), and thus Lucifer/satan could no more come back ("cast down" (positionally) as he had before in Job 1 & 2, 1 Kings 22 & 2 Chronicles 18 &c) Revelation 12:10, which was long after he was "cast out" originally), for the sacrifice of Christ (not resisting, laying down His life), the murder of Christ by Lucifer, the mask was torn away from him, and all could see that satan was a murderer from the beginning:

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Psa 98:1 A Psalm. O sing unto the LORD a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory.
Psa 98:2 The LORD hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen.
Psa 98:3 He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

Mar_4:22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.

Luk_8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

Mat_7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Mat_7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Joh_8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth [Jesus Christ], because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Mat_13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.​

The fullness of the tree, when it bears the fruit, all will know exactly what type of tree it is, without any longer guessing.

God had tried helping Lucifer to find repentance, but he didn't take that route. Even the musick of Heaven almost brought Lucifer back to his right senses, but he chose to be self-deceived. It is too late for satan now. The door of probation had closed for him, and all those angels that went with him. He chose to "go out from the presence of the Lord", as Cain did. They left their "first estate". It was too late. God wept for the one (and the many) that was closest to being like Himself (Ezekiel 28, "the sum", "perfect", as near to God as a creature could be made, and none else like him, wiser than Daniel, and only "His maker" could approach unto him.)
 
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April_Rose

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please make the effort and read the chapter on 'The origin of Sin' that I posted to you in the book 'The Great Controversy'.
It will give you quiet a perspective and plenty of food for thought. Read it even if you don't agree with it.





But it's too complicated for me to understand so that's why I don't respond to some stuff.
 

WaterSong

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I use that photo in another Forum. I really think that is what Jesus looks like. How could a little 4-year old Girl get visions of heaven and Jesus (with Atheist Parents mind you) and then have this prodigy talent to paint that portrait at 7 years old? And then Colton Burpo confirmed it in that book, "Heaven Is For Real". Saw the movie too, wonderful acting, a good holiday movie.
Anyways, back to the OP.
Satan needs God's permission! With Job, Satan accused him, made a bet with God that he would curse him if He didn't bless him with everything, so God let Satan do all that he did, destroy everyone and everything except for him - for our lessen, for us to have strength and know that whatever happens, God is there, can be trusted and that there is a purpose. He causes all things to work for good...
Many believe that the Garden of Eden was perfect? Physically yes, but was the environment perfect? How could it be perfect when an opportunity existed that could possibly cause death and separation from God, get them kicked out and suffer curses and pass them down throughout all generations to come? Furthermore, how perfect can a place be with Satan roaming around trying to lure you, tempt you into falling? It wasn't perfect, it was planned. Wait a minute now, the Fall of Man was planned? What kind of heresy are you talking about ... have you lost your mind you might say?
We cannot know Good, the attributes of God, and we cannot really appreciate them unless we know their opposites, that is sin and evil. Could know forgiveness, love, truth, justice, hope, faith, healing, unless we actually experienced what it was like to live with the opposite; pain and suffering, lies, hate, hopelessness, etc.
It was a perfect plan. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil was put there so that we can understand and appreciate. Otherwise, why would he put that tree AND Satan in there. And as you said, why wouldn't he destroy all of them? Because LOVE can not be forced on us. He loved us, but we could not really love him and He cannot force us to, it comes willingly and with a cost, sacrifice, death, and that was His plan from the start , before the foundation of the world. That He would send a Savior, to die for our Sins - that greatest act of love ( which we would have never known or appreciated).
Example: The Haiti Earthquake took about 300k lives. Most would say that was evil. What was interesting about Haiti, one of the poorest nations on earth, is that it was filled with false religions, Voodoo and others. People were in fear of evil spirits that controlled them in bondage. The earthquake hits and what happens. They were flooded with help, food, doctors, love unconditionally and then gospel came as well. Afterwards, many came to Christ. So was that an evil act or just God altering the path of Haiti?

Isaiah 45:7 says "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." KJV
Other translations for the word evil, use calamity, disaster, trouble, destruction, woe.


Great post. :)
I often wondered why God put a forbidden tree in the middle of a garden paradise. And let the serpent enter in and tempt Eve and Adam to eat of it.
You make a good point.
I'll counter point and see how it goes. Prior to eating of that forbidden tree neither Eve nor Adam were conscious of right and wrong. They were as innocent as newborn babes. The fruit bestowed upon them that alteration of the innocent consciousness and instilled in its stead awareness of dual nature, good and evil, which was in kind with God's knowledge. (remember the verse wherein after God learns they ate of that tree he remarked, they have become like unto us. Knowing good from evil).

Why not forgive that first innocent mistake? And when God is not like us, but is a higher consciousness, why would he need be worshiped and make that so, when he as God doesn't need human affirmation to proclaim his power and authority. He's God. He knows what he is.
Why not forgive and be there for the human race? Why also condemn them for having the human nature God predestined with the planting of that tree and due to his Omniscience?
People are now sinners because God let it be so. People are separated from God for that same reason. And people die separated from God, because God made it so as well. And if one believes in the fire and brimstone Hell, God made that possible for the unrepentant to suffer for all time as well because it was first the final destination for Satan and his angels. But God opened it to receive fallen humans later.
Being Omniscient and Sovereign, why would God make it necessary we repent of the very condition God made possible for us?
 
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WaterSong

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Not wanting to derail A_R's thread but to answer this question I must ask, who was the witness or the reporter in heaven that recorded this conversation with God?
I must also ask, does Satan need to ask God for permission before he carries out his evil plans on Earth?....and, do God and Satan really have this sort of ongoing relationship? ....is God complicate to the evil perpetrated on Earth?
Hmmm, ok.....this is not funny if these things are true.....which I don't think they are.

The Hebrews loved a good story; they were story tellers and told stories to convey lessons. They never asked, 'is this a true story?' in the sense of, is it factual as we might mean/ask. If you ask a Jew this question they will say, 'of course it's a true story' in the same sense we would understand let's say the story of 'The boy who cried, 'wolf'. The factual aspect is irrelevant, it's not even in the picture....what is important is the lesson it conveys. In that sense it is true even if the details were just a fabrication. Jesus did this when he told the story of the rich man and Lazarus to make a point.....the point being, 'if they don't believe the scriptures they won't believe even if a miracle is done'. He was not giving us a lesson on the state of the dead.
Satan was if I remember correctly the first angel God made. The angels were created before earth. Lucifer, "Light Bringer", was beautiful and highly intelligent. Bible Gateway passage: Ezekiel 28:12 - Amplified Bible

There are passages in Job that speak of Satan entering heaven again and again.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Kings 22:19-23 - Amplified Bible

Again there was a day when the sons of God (angels) came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan (adversary, accuser) also came among them to present himself before the Lord.” Job 2: 1 AMP

Job 1:6 tells us Satan and his angels, not just Satan himself, entered heaven and presented themselves to God.
Now there was a day when the sons of God (angels) came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan (adversary, accuser) also came among them. Job 1:6

Remember too that in Job God asked Satan, after he'd arrived in Heaven, where he'd been. Satan answered, roaming to and fro about the face of the earth.
And of course there is the verse in the NT that tells us Satan roams the earth like unto a hungry lion seeking souls to devour.
Why doesn't God chastise Satan when he arrives? Instead of asking where he's been? Of course Omniscient God knows the answer before asking this.
Bible Gateway passage: Revelation 12:10 - Amplified Bible

And we learn in the new testament that Satan continued to visit God. Which would mean he visits today as well even after Jesus vanquished his power over death on the cross. And in the new testament we learn he continued to ask permission to work here on earth. Only this time it was to sift the apostles.
Bible Gateway passage: Luke 22:31 - Amplified Bible
 

quietthinker

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But it's too complicated for me to understand so that's why I don't respond to some stuff.
you'll find it an easy read A_R...and riveting. It'll put lots into perspective and dispel the confusion of all the yada yada.
 

quietthinker

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Continued:

The Son of God pled with Lucifer, personally, when he had begun to have his first doubts:

Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
Mat 18:17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

Rev_3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.​

The Character of God is unchanging:

Mal_3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Psa_102:27 But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.

Heb_1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.​

God's character is love itself:

1Jn_4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jn_4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.​

Exo 34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.
Exo 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.​

Before the events of Revelation 12:7, and "war", which began with words, and ended in an attempt by force itself, Jesus had gone to Lucifer, as well as other angels with Him (Matthew 18) and pled with Lucifer personally, and once Lucifer Left His arch-office, and began to disseminate his foreign ideas among the other angels, God let the tree of evil grow, so that all may see its fruit and understand:

Psa_37:35 I have seen the wicked in great power, and spreading himself like a green bay tree.​

In Revelation 17, we see the 7 (and even 8) branches of the tree of evil, the tree of darkness, come to the full. All will know. The Heavenly angels were convinced at the tree of Life (the Cross, Calvary), and thus Lucifer/satan could no more come back ("cast down" (positionally) as he had before in Job 1 & 2, 1 Kings 22 & 2 Chronicles 18 &c) Revelation 12:10, which was long after he was "cast out" originally), for the sacrifice of Christ (not resisting, laying down His life), the murder of Christ by Lucifer, the mask was torn away from him, and all could see that satan was a murderer from the beginning:

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Psa 98:1 A Psalm. O sing unto the LORD a new song; for he hath done marvellous things: his right hand, and his holy arm, hath gotten him the victory.
Psa 98:2 The LORD hath made known his salvation: his righteousness hath he openly shewed in the sight of the heathen.
Psa 98:3 He hath remembered his mercy and his truth toward the house of Israel: all the ends of the earth have seen the salvation of our God.

Mar_4:22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.

Luk_8:17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad.

Mat_7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Mat_7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Joh_8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth [Jesus Christ], because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Mat_13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.​

The fullness of the tree, when it bears the fruit, all will know exactly what type of tree it is, without any longer guessing.

God had tried helping Lucifer to find repentance, but he didn't take that route. Even the musick of Heaven almost brought Lucifer back to his right senses, but he chose to be self-deceived. It is too late for satan now. The door of probation had closed for him, and all those angels that went with him. He chose to "go out from the presence of the Lord", as Cain did. They left their "first estate". It was too late. God wept for the one (and the many) that was closest to being like Himself (Ezekiel 28, "the sum", "perfect", as near to God as a creature could be made, and none else like him, wiser than Daniel, and only "His maker" could approach unto him.)
Thank you ReChoired....a beautiful compilation.
 

quietthinker

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And we learn in the new testament that Satan continued to visit God. Which would mean he visits today as well even after Jesus vanquished his power over death on the cross. And in the new testament we learn he continued to ask permission to work here on earth. Only this time it was to sift the apostles.
Bible Gateway passage: Luke 22:31 - Amplified Bible
I think you are reading into this text that which is not there WS
 

quietthinker

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How so?
Luke 22:31 Simon, Simon (Peter), listen! Satan has demanded permission to sift [all of] you like grain;
Luke 22:31 is not a text one can deduce that Satan visits God to ask for permission as in your post #45 copied below.

'And we learn in the new testament that Satan continued to visit God. Which would mean he visits today as well even after Jesus vanquished his power over death on the cross. And in the new testament we learn he continued to ask permission to work here on earth. Only this time it was to sift the apostles.'
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Excellent observation sister. :)
We just take it for granted when Lucifer lost the war he led with 1/3rd of the angels and was cast out of heaven to earth, that was that. I've not seen the subject broached from a sin perspective before. Well done.

What's curious in the aftermath of that fall to earth is when we find Lucifer/Satan, or ha Satan, cannot do anything without God's permission. (Job 1)
Another curious thing in the post war era is, why did God let Lucifer and those angels who obeyed him to live after they lost the war?
Only to let them vex humans on earth.

You didn't think this Angel who became Satan and a Devil that rebelled against God, as sinful?
The questions you asked above in your post are easily answered if you believe the truth that's written down in the Bible. Ask yourself questions.
What is God’s purpose for the earth and for humans? What went wrong? And why is Jesus’ ransom sacrifice the key that unlocks the door for God’s purpose to be accomplished?

Jehovah carefully set boundaries for all of his creation. He made laws in nature, and he made moral laws. He made these laws so that everything in the universe would work well together. (Psalm 19:7-9) All things in the universe have an assigned place and function. For example, the law of gravity keeps the atmosphere close to the earth, and it controls the oceans and tides. Without gravity, life on earth would not be possible. The boundaries that Jehovah set in nature result in perfect order in the universe. This shows that he has a purpose for the earth and for humans.

Jehovah’s purpose was for humans to live forever on earth. (Genesis 1:28; Psalm 37:29) He is generous, and he gave Adam and Eve a variety of precious gifts. (Read James 1:17.) Jehovah gave them free will and the ability to reason, to love, and to enjoy friendships.

Things did not immediately work out as Jehovah wanted. What happened? Jehovah gave Adam and Eve a simple law so that they would know the limits of their freedom. He said: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.” (Genesis 2:16, 17) That law was not difficult for them to understand. And it would not be difficult for them to obey.

Satan the Devil used a serpent to fool Eve into disobeying her Father, Jehovah. (Read Genesis 3:1-5; Revelation 12:9) Satan made an issue of the fact that God’s human children were not allowed to eat “from every tree of the garden.” It was as if he were saying: ‘You mean you cannot do what you want?’ Next, he told her: “You certainly will not die.” That was a lie. Then he tried to convince Eve that she did not need to listen to God. Satan said: “God knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened.” Satan was saying that Jehovah did not want them to eat the fruit because this would give them some special knowledge. Finally, he made this false promise: “You will be like God, knowing good and bad.”
They rejected Jehovah as their Father and joined Satan. Now they were on their own, without Jehovah’s protection.—Genesis 3:6-13.
They became God’s enemies, because he hates wickedness. His “eyes are too pure to look on what is evil.” (Habakkuk 1:13) If Jehovah had done nothing about Adam and Eve’s sin, the well-being of all his creation would have been threatened. Both angels and humans would have wondered whether they could depend on his word. But Jehovah is faithful to his own standards; he never violates them. (Psalm 119:142) Although Adam and Eve had free will, they could not avoid the consequences of rebelling against Jehovah. They eventually died and returned to the dust from which they were created.—Genesis 3:19.
 
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Nancy

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Is hate a sin? Note Malachi 1:2,3 - “Wasn’t Esau Jacob’s brother?” says Yahweh, “Yet I loved Jacob; but Esau I hated, and made his mountains a desolation, and gave his heritage to the jackals of the wilderness”. So has God sinned? (See the quote from Romans 9 below for the apostle Paul's answer.) Just hating someone is not a sin, although actions performed out of hatred for somebody might well be.

Hi Keithr,

1 John 2:9-11
9 "Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness. 10 Anyone who loves their brother and sister[c] lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. 11 But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them."
If someone is walking with hatred in their hearts, then they are obviously an angry person who allows the 'sun to go down on it'. So, I guess I see hatred as a sinful mindset. Hatred is a killjoy...for the hater, that is ;)

If you do hate a brother or sister, you are walking in darkness and...we know that describes an unbeliever. Holding hatred in your heart is the same as walking in the dark, which means one is not walking in the light as He is in the light.." Can one forgive one who has sinned against them if they hate the person?
Speaking of Jacob and Esau, this usage of the word "hate" and "love" could simply mean that God "preferred or chose" Jacob over Esau or, many other things. God knows what each person will choose in their lives so, seems to me that He uses the bad to make the good. Too bad Esau's "repentance" was not from the heart" he, himself sold his birthright and tried hard to get it back yet, he was not sincere in it as he planned to kill Jacob. Kind of like some who claim Christianity yet still involve themselves in worldly things and people. They might go to a Church building for an hour or 2 a week, and maybe even a bible study now and then but...aren't they just trying to buy their way into heaven with a bowl of stew, so to speak.

Jesus also used this word "hate", when he says that we cannot be his disciples unless we "hate" our families Luke 14:26 , but in Matthew 10:37 he only warns us against loving them more than him.

This is only my personal take. Maybe it is just pert near impossible for me to think God could "hate" a person for no reason.
God Bless and Merry Christmas,
nancy



 

Rene Loup

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Also, would God forgive him if he repented?

God probably would, but would Satan actually be willing to repent? In Revelation 19:11-20:15, Satan is imprisoned for one thousand years. After getting paroled, he just makes another attempt to deceive the nations into rebelling against God again, proving he is incapable of repentance. The only option left is giving him the death sentence in the Lake of Fire.

My mentor told me that angels had one chance to make the decision on whether to serve God or Satan. Their decision has already been made and is final. Us humans, however, have the ability to make those kind of decisions every single day. That is free will, God's gift to us.
 
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Truman

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When he was in Heaven and there's no sin in Heaven? Also, would God forgive him if he repented?
He became enamored of his beauty and deceived himself into thinking he was something that he wasn't.
This train of thought has led me to the place where I have decided to trust God with what I don't understand. I believe it's called faith. :)
 
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WaterSong

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You didn't think this Angel that became Satan and a Devil rebelling against God, as sinful?
The questions ou asked above are easily answered if you believe the truth that's written down in the Bible. Like at Genesis 3: 1-5. Do you hear what Satan is saying through the serpent about God. He's saying, "God is a liar, that God is a bad ruler because he doesn't rule with what's in the best interests of what he has created. Then because Adam and disobeyed God they were listening to the serpent who was actually Satan
I think you quoted the wrong member. You'll notice in my post that you quoted there is absent anything like unto my saying I did not believe Lucifer was sinful.
 

WaterSong

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God probably would, but would Satan actually be willing to repent? In Revelation 19:11-20:15, Satan is imprisoned for one thousand years. After getting paroled, he just makes another attempt to deceive the nations into rebelling against God again, proving he is incapable of repentance. The only option left is giving him the death sentence in the Lake of Fire.

My mentor told me that angels had one chance to make the decision on whether to serve God or Satan. Their decision has already been made and is final. Us humans, however, have the ability to make those kind of decisions every single day. That is free will, God's gift to us.
If Satan needs God's permission to act, how about we consider that Satan making an attempt to lead nations into rebelling against God is actually a means of testing their metal. Their devotion to God. As with Job.
What if Satan is the catalyst to faith? The testing of it or the cause for coming into it?
 

quietthinker

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If Satan needs God's permission to act, how about we consider that Satan making an attempt to lead nations into rebelling against God is actually a means of testing their metal. Their devotion to God. As with Job.
What if Satan is the catalyst to faith? The testing of it or the cause for coming into it?
Satan desires to take all he can with him to destruction. God has no interest in giving man a hard time for any reason. That is not to say that hard times don't challenge us......but even more, good times challenge us also.

Re Job....this story tells us it was Satan who afflicted Job....not God..... even if Job mistakenly thought it was God as did his friends. His friends went a step further.....they assumed Job had brought it on himself and deducted it was God punishing him.
So much for man's mistaken logic and the certainty with which they accuse Job.

The scripture tells us that God does not tempt people neither does he use a third party to hide from responsibility.....God is no coward. It is Satan who aligns the thinking of men to make God appear as the culprit, the one who brings suffering upon mankind......and people believe it.....particularly 'religious' people. It is Satans objective to malign God!