How Could Have Satan Sinned?

WaterSong said:

If Satan needs God's permission to act, how about we consider that Satan making an attempt to lead nations into rebelling against God is actually a means of testing their metal. Their devotion to God. As with Job.
What if Satan is the catalyst to faith? The testing of it or the cause for coming into it?

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My personal take on this is that Satan and his fallen angels do not play fair and will fight dirty if given the opportunity. Because of this reality, God will have to act as referee, especially because Christians are commanded to actually play by the rules, even if the outcome is stacked against us.

However, your theory is indeed something to think about in my future Bible studies. Thank you for your take on this.

I admit, I have not sat down and actually read the Book of Job yet. Judging from the summaries I have read so far, it sounds like an early criticism of the Just-World Hypothesis.

I know in Genesis 50, Joseph said to his brothers, "...you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive." This is a testament about how much of a chess-master God is, no matter what we throw at Him. In today's jargon, we call that, "Taking lemons and making lemonade." We have thrown so many lemons at God, He now has a lemonade empire that makes the Coca-Cola company look like a lemonade stand.

I also have a theory about the path God has chosen for this world is the best possible one. Time travel and alternate history fiction presents numerous speculations of unforeseen consequences, so what would happen if Satan was taken out of the picture too soon? God is the omniscient One, I trust His decision over our limited understanding of the situation. It would be incredibly foolish of me to challenge my family doctor competence because I did a couple hours worth of research on the internet.

April_Rose said:

When he was in Heaven and there's no sin in Heaven? Also, would God forgive him if he repented?

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Hi April Rose.
There is a branch of Biblical Theology known as Satanology, which simply means the study of Satan. As you may know the name Satan means "adversary" which is defined as a person, group, or force that opposes.

Firstly, God always knows everything that is knowable so He has always known the who, what, when, where, how, how many, how much, and why of His opposition. From this we can deduce that God knew opposition to Him would be inevitable. It was always a factor God was aware of.

Secondly, it is possible from Scripture to arrive at the conclusion that Lucifer held a privileged position in heaven and had a close working relationship with God prior to the Creation of the Universe, but when, as Lucifer, he saw how close Adam and Eve were to God as the Lord in pleasure at their obedience and innocence walked with them in the Garden of Eden, he began to manifest pride and to contest his subservient position which he was now finding unacceptable.

Thirdly, it is possible from Scripture to perceive that the so-called "original sin" was not Adam and Eve's disobedience in eating of the forbidden fruit, but was Satan's opposing of God's Will in deceiving Eve with lies that contradicted God's instruction to them.

For further study it helps to be aware that there are 3 heavens mentioned in the Bible as follows

1. The Atmospheric Heaven, namely the sky directly above the earth's surface.
2. The Celestial Heaven, namely outer space which contains the stars.
3. The Divine Heaven, namely the theographical location of God and His throne.

God can manifest His Presence wherever He wants, so that after Satan rebelled as described, it was still possible for him to inhabit the atmospheric heaven and the celestial heaven and present himself before God on occasions. The war against Michael and his angels takes place in the celestial heaven at which time Satan is cast down to the earth as God's Plan for the Day of Judgment further unfolds.

Rene Loup said:
I know in Genesis 50, Joseph said to his brothers, "...you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive." This is a testament about how much of a chess-master God is, no matter what we throw at Him.[/Quote\]

I agree that nothing can stop God's purposes from being fulfilled. The scriptures show that many prophecies were said about Joseph so much so that his brothers were jealous which is why they acted toward Joseph the way they did. However God's purposes can't be stopped so God still worked through Joseph accomplishing the purpose he was going to accomplish through Joseph.

April_Rose said:

When he was in Heaven and there's no sin in Heaven? Also, would God forgive him if he repented?

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Satan (the Dragon and Old Serpent) was created as a Beast Spirit, not a Man, therefore no repentance is possible...

Genesis 3:1
"Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?"

Many assume falsely that Lucifer was an Angel and that he was created first and somehow 'fell' to become Satan. This is incorrect. It is the other way around. Satan (Beast Spirit) falls to become a Man (Beast Human). This happens over and over by the way, which is why the Dragon has seven heads. Each head represents an incarnation into a Beast Human and Antichrist.

Thus, Lucifer was simply a sarcastic title given to the King of Babylon...

Isaiah 14:4
"That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!"

In addition, if we continue reading, we discover that...

Lucifer was in fact a TREE IN THE GARDEN OF EDEN, NOT THE SERPENT!

Isaiah 14:8
"Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us."

Lucifer was 'chopped down' by a Feller or Lumberjack. This is repeated here...

Isaiah 14:12
"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Obviously, a Tree and a Serpent are two different things. Scripture makes this point clear for us.

And look what we have here...

Ezekiel 31:9
"I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him."

Envy? In the Garden of Eden?

Again, we have an Antichrist figure being described as a Tree in the Garden of Eden. So who is this particular Tree?

Ezekiel 31:18
"To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden? yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is Pharaoh and all his multitude, saith the Lord GOD."

Isn't that interesting? It is not the King of Babylon this time, but Pharaoh.

See that?

Satan fell and became Lucifer, the King of Babylon. Lucifer then died...

Isaiah 14:15
"Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

Again, Scripture makes it clear that Lucifer was a Man, not an Angel...

Isaiah 14:16
"They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"

Satan later falls and incarnates as another Antichrist to become Pharaoh. This cycle continues until the Dragon has seven heads...

Revelation 17:8
"The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is."

Satan ascends (birthed again in Human form) out of the Pit, dies, and goes back to destruction... over and over again.

The phrase 'was, is not, and yet is' would be the Bible's way of saying that Satan is being reincarnated. Unfortunately, Christians are told the lie that Reincarnation does not exist and as a consequence, we see the ridiculous Fake News stories being posted on this very thread in a vain attempt at making the lie stick.

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

Sorry for the mistake

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Not a problem.

April_Rose said:

When he was in Heaven and there's no sin in Heaven? Also, would God forgive him if he repented?

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The Angels that God created he created them with freewill. That means they can choose to dwell on bad thoughts that eventually they will act on if they continue to dwell on the bad thoughts. Satan started dwelling on something he wanted that only belongs to The True God, "wordhip," until eventually he acted upon such thoughts. There is nothing in the scriptures that shows that Satan was repentant of his act of rebellion. The same is true of Adam and Eve, you'll find nothing in the scriptural record that shows they were repentant.

WaterSong said:

...when Lucifer lost the war he led with 1/3rd of the angels and was cast out of heaven to earth,

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Which I believe is in the near future. All Hell will soon be unleashed on Earth.

Matthew 24:21 (NKJV)
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

kcnalp said:

Which I believe is in the near future. All Hell will soon be unleashed on Earth.

Matthew 24:21 (NKJV)
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

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Please assist my understanding of your post. You're saying Lucifer and his angels being cast out of heaven is to happen in the near future?

WaterSong said:

Please assist my understanding of your post. You're saying Lucifer and his angels being cast out of heaven is to happen in the near future?

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Hi WaterSong,
It is not Lucifer as such who is cast down by Michael and his angels in Rev 12. As the divine lightbearer, Lucifer had a legitimate place in the Divine Heaven until he acted in rebellion against God and became Satan, the Adversary, the Opposer referred to as the Devil, the Dragon, or the Serpent.

The woman in Revelation is best interpreted as being Israel from whence came the Messiah, the child mentioned there.

The Apostle John is shown the tail of the Dragon casting down a third part of the stars of heaven, not a literal event but metaphorically depicting the limitation of Satan's power. He couldn't remove all the stars in the celestial heaven, nor can he exercise total power over God's Creation. Various theories are available regarding who the stars are, and although stars are sometimes used to portray angels, this is not always the intended meaning. Furthermore, the Dragon is shown as wanting to devour the child born to the woman so we can deduce that events in the narrative following this happened after the birth of Christ.

Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Scripture shows Satan having access to earth at all times, notably calling him the prince of the power of the air in the NT, so the casting down after the war with Michael and his angels is the placing of a restriction on him continuing to inhabit the celestial heaven rather than the assigning of him to a place he is not already active in. Some see this casting down as still being in the future, whilst others believe it has been in place since the resurrection of Christ due to the proclamation made by the loud voice which John heard, and the reference to Christian martyrs with the ability to overcome by the blood of the Lamb, and the word of their testimony.

Rev 12:10-11 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. (11) And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

I hope this helps, WaterSong.
Blessings from Stumpmaster.

kcnalp said:

Which I believe is in the near future. All Hell will soon be unleashed on Earth.

Matthew 24:21 (NKJV)
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

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I believe the war in heaven in which Satan and his demons lost and were thrown out of heaven has already happened. I believe the two World Wars we had proves that.
The outbreak of the war in 1914 was the great turning point of the history of humanity. . . . We entered an age of disaster, horror, and hatred, with insecurity everywhere.”
The New York Times Magazine of August 1, 1954, came to this conclusion: “The first World War marked a far greater change in history. It closed a long era of general peace and began a new age of violence in which the second war is simply an episode. Since 1914 the world has had a new character: a character of international anarchy. . . . Thus the first World War marks a turning point in modern history.”
Such terms as “a turning point in modern history,” an “age of violence,” “an age of war and revolution” and “a volcanic epoch,” used by leading authorities, ought to jar scoffers into some sensible thinking! Instead most people think as Jesus said they would, "continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning."
While I do believe We're in the last days of this wicked world mankind is living in, I don't think the great tribulation has began yet, that's in the future.

Stump master said:
The woman in Revelation is best interpreted as being Israel from whence came the Messiah, the child mentioned there.[/Quote\]

In the inspired prophecies, women at times represent organizations “married” to outstanding personalities. In the Hebrew Scriptures, Israel was spoken of as a wife of Jehovah God. (Jeremiah 3:14) In the Greek Scriptures, the congregation of anointed Christians is spoken of as Christ’s bride. (Revelation 21:9-14) The woman John here sees is also married to someone, and she is about to give birth. Who is her husband? Well, later her child is “caught away to God and to his throne.” (Revelation 12:5) Jehovah thus claims the child as his own. Therefore, the woman that John sees must be Jehovah’s symbolic wife.
About eight centuries earlier, Jehovah had addressed this symbolic wife, saying: “All your sons will be persons taught by Jehovah.” (Isaiah 54:5, 13) Jesus quoted this prophecy and showed that these sons were his faithful followers, who later formed the congregation of anointed Christians. (John 6:44, 45) So members of this congregation, spoken of as God’s sons, are also children of God’s symbolic wife. (Romans 8:14) The apostle Paul adds the final piece of information when he says: “The Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.” (Galatians 4:26) The “woman” seen by John, then, is “the Jerusalem above.”
Exactly what, though, is Jerusalem above? Since Paul spoke of her as “above,” and John sees her in heaven, she is clearly not an earthly city; neither is she the same as “New Jerusalem,” since that organization is the bride of Christ, not Jehovah’s wife. (Revelation 21:2) Notice that she is crowned with 12 stars. The number 12 is associated with completeness in an organizational setting.* Hence, these 12 stars seem to indicate that she is an organizational arrangement in heaven, just as ancient Jerusalem was on earth. Jerusalem above is Jehovah’s universal organization of spirit creatures that acts as his wife, both in serving him and in producing offspring.
John sees this woman as being robed with the sun and having the moon beneath her feet. When we add her crown of stars, she is completely surrounded by heavenly lights. God’s favor shines upon her day and night. What a fitting symbol of Jehovah’s magnificent heavenly organization! She is also pregnant, enduring labor pains. Her cries for divine help show that her time has come to give birth. In the Bible, labor pains often symbolize the hard work needed to produce an important result. (Compare Psalm 90:2; Proverbs 25:23; Isaiah 66:7, 8.)

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

When we add her crown of stars, she is completely surrounded by heavenly lights.

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Hi Barney,

As you may be aware, this cross-reference to Israel in her origins is unmistakable.

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. (plus Joseph = 12 stars)

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

quietthinker said:

this is just not correct theefaith. Angels are an intelligent order a little above humans.

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Psalm 8:5
For thou hast made him a little lower thanthe angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

CharismaticLady said:

But you do agree that Satan "changed his mind" and sinned don't you?

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no he simply chose rebellion and it is fixed forever

Stumpmaster said:

Hi Barney,

As you may be aware, this cross-reference to Israel in her origins is unmistakable.

Gen 37:9 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. (plus Joseph = 12 stars)

Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

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If that's what you choose to believe is true so be it. I disagree with you. I believe the woman to be Jerusalem above and is free and represents Jehovah’s universal organization of spirit creatures that acts as his wife, both in serving him and in producing offspring.
In scripture it is stated, "all your sons will be persons taught by Jehovah.” (Isaiah 54:5, 13) Jesus quoted this prophecy and showed that these sons were his faithful followers, who later formed the congregation of anointed Christians. (John 6:44, 45) this anointed congregation is also spiritual Israel. So members of this congregation,(spiritual Israel) spoken of as God’s sons, are also children of God’s symbolic wife. (Romans 8:14)

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

I believe the war in heaven in which Satan and his demons lost and were thrown out of heaven has already happened. I believe the two World Wars we had proves that.
The outbreak of the war in 1914 was the great turning point of the history of humanity. . . . We entered an age of disaster, horror, and hatred, with insecurity everywhere.”
The New York Times Magazine of August 1, 1954, came to this conclusion: “The first World War marked a far greater change in history. It closed a long era of general peace and began a new age of violence in which the second war is simply an episode. Since 1914 the world has had a new character: a character of international anarchy. . . . Thus the first World War marks a turning point in modern history.”
Such terms as “a turning point in modern history,” an “age of violence,” “an age of war and revolution” and “a volcanic epoch,” used by leading authorities, ought to jar scoffers into some sensible thinking! Instead most people think as Jesus said they would, "continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning."
While I do believe We're in the last days of this wicked world mankind is living in, I don't think the great tribulation has began yet, that's in the future.

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Well then, you and a lot of other professing Christians have a big surprise coming soon.

kcnalp said:

Well then, you and a lot of other professing Christians have a big surprise coming soon.

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We know that the great tribulation will come soon and we'll not be shocked by how it comes. The majority of those who profess to be Christians but who are not will be shocked when their religious establishments come falling down. They will know at that time that it's The True God that's destroying their religious establishments. They will know Armageddon is very near and those who say they're Christian but are not, will be exclaiming, who can stand. Revelation 6:17

Prayer Warrior said:

Hi, I don’t believe I asked if it’s okay to hate Satan. I really don’t think about it. I despise everything rotten he stands for, and I fight him everyday as I intercede for myself, my family, other Christians, the lost, and my country....

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I'm sorry, it was either AR or WS who said that, my bad

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

We know that the great tribulation will come soon and we'll not be shocked by how it comes. The majority of those who profess to be Christians but who are not will be shocked when their religious establishments come falling down. They will know at that time that it's The True God that's destroying their religious establishments. They will know Armageddon is very near and those who say they're Christian but are not, will be exclaiming, who can stand. Revelation 6:17

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Yes indeed, Kingdom Hall will soon fall.

Whenever people try to pass off the woman in Revelation 12 as the ekklesia or body of Christ they do so recklessly and mangle the Scriptures in the process. Prior to its metaphorical marriage to the Lamb, the body of Christ is described as a virginal bride, and it is absurd to suggest the bride of Christ gives birth to the Christ child as described in Revelation 12 and then after His ascension flees into the desert.

2Co 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
Rev 19:7-8 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife has made herself ready. (8) And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.