Timtofly
Well-Known Member
So not the Holy Spirit but human understanding?
Sorry. I am just satisfied reading God's Word as written.
One taken to heaven and the other left to face the Tribulation...
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Sorry. I am just satisfied reading God's Word as written.
Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Covid19 would be considered a plague and it split families apart. It also killed them and did not rapture them. The rapture is in the 6th Seal at the Second Coming.
Keraz
Well-Known Member
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The Sixth Seal disaster by fire, earthquakes and storms, is not and cannot be the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.
Revelation 19:11-21 says plainly that Jesus will kill the armies of the 'beast' and chain him up when He Returns. NOT what is described in Rev 6:12-17 and in many other prophesies about the dreadful Day of the Lord's fiery wrath.
As for any 'rapture to heaven', you will be very disappointed to still be on earth after that Day. Such a thing is never prophesied.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
You deal with several ideas here, and I'll just deal with some of it, so as not to get it all mixed up. The Rapture of the Church does not, in my thinking, relate to the "2 men in the field, 1 taken and 1 left." The "2 men in the field* aren't taken up into heaven at all. If anything, the Rapture relates to where the Son of Man comes back from heaven, sending his angels out to gather his saints from one end of heaven to the other.
In my thinking, the Rapture has to do with the experience of Enoch and Elijah, who were caught up to heaven when their ministry was through. It had to do with the fact Jesus himself was caught up to heaven to be glorified--therefore, the saints also have to be caught up to heaven to be glorified so that they can return with Jesus from heaven to establish God's Kingdom on the earth.
It has nothing at all to do with "2 men in the field," which referred to the coming of the Roman Army to Jerusalem, taking some into captivity and leaving others to manage the fields for them.
Nobody should say this was a special revelation that only Paul had--I've heard that from Pretribulationists. They say that because there is no explicit theology of Pretribulationism in the Scriptures, and they wish to claim special revelation came to Paul and therefore must come to us also. I reject that kind of "revelation." It is purely subjective.
My OP proves Paul quoted Jesus in Matt 24 when speaking in 1 Thes 4.
Do you think the 3 parallel subject matters were a Biblical coincidence?
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
It is an interpretive fallacy to say that use of the same words in different contexts imply the contexts must actually be the same. I can refer to a thief in a book I read, or to a thief in Jesus' Olivet Discourse. Just because I use the word "thief" does not mean wherever the word "thief" is used there must be reference to the Olivet Discourse.
A good example of this kind of problem is where Jesus mentioned "birth pains" in the Olivet Discourse, and Paul mentioned "birth pains" in 1 Thes 5.
Matt 24.8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
1 Thes 5.3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
Any reference to "birth pains" must be explained by its own context, since the term "birth pains" is used many times and in many different circumstances throughout the Scriptures. In Paul's case, the term clearly refers to the end of the age, when Christ comes suddenly upon an unsuspecting, wicked world that has refused to respond to the word of repentance.
However, as Jesus used the term, "birth pains" referred to signs in the Early Church that led to the Roman desolation of Jerusalem, along with the destruction of the temple. A number of initial signs, such as war and divine judgment, indicated judgment was coming upon the Jews in that generation. Two very different contexts for "birth pains."
But you're right that 1 Thes 4 runs parallel with the Olivet Discourse and uses similar terms. We simply have to line them up properly. Paul knows that the eschatology Jesus referred to has its foundation in Dan 7, where the Son of Man receives authorization to establish God's Kingdom on earth and to destroy the Antichrist.
Jesus "descends from heaven" in this context, and delivers God's people from death. I do think it seems a bit ambiguous to me whether Jesus is referring to the physical resurrection of Israel or to the spiritual restoration of Israel. It seems to indicate both.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Yes, I see parallels between the Olivet Discourse and 1 Thes 4. But again, we have to line things up properly. I do *not* think the 2 in the field, 1 taken and 1 left, has any resemblance to the Church being taken to heaven in 1 Thes 4!
Are both passages referring to Christ's 2nd Coming? Yes! But Jesus referred, in the Olivet Discourse, to both his 2nd Coming and to the 70 AD disaster in Jerusalem. So Paul's context deals exclusively with the 2nd Coming, and Jesus, in his Olivet Discourse, does not.
We have to see the reference to "2 in the field, 1 taken and 1 left" as a reference to the 70 AD event, in which some were taken away to exile and others were left to till the fields and to maintain them for the Romans. We have to "rightly divide" the truth, and not assume that because one passage is parallel with another passage that all things can be associated in any random manner.
You are all over the place..catching away...2nd coming.
Chapter 25 begins with a sleeping church, then a taking by the bridegroom to a wedding.
Not "birth pains", but relaxation.
So, chapter 25 is a continuing explanation of 24.
Read the OP and make the 3 parallel subjects not say what they say.
Both passages are in this order....taking...thief...drunk.
Paul says ..."this we say by the word of the Lord'.
"We" are the Apostles, which were familiar with the word of the Lord per Matt 24-25.
The taking alive was common knowledge with the 1st century church, and Paul was COMMENTING on the words of Christ in Matt 24-25.
You may have heard like I have in the past that Paul had some sort of special revelation of the catching away, but they are wrong that say that.
The other Apostles first heard it when Jesus spoke of it.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
No, I don't see the order "taking, thief, and drunk" as depicted as "2 in the field 1 taken and the other left." The "taking" in the Olivet Discourse had to do with the angels coming down from heaven to restore the Jewish "elect." Those in the field were being *judged* by God, as indeed the entire context of the Discourse has to do with Jewish judgment in that generation.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Actually, my argument has to do with context--not with being "all over the place." Mixing different passages improperly is an example of being "all over the place." Let's try to interpret each passage in its own context 1st. Then we can compare that passage with another passage.
Let's look at this closer...
Paul speaks of a taking to heaven.....
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Paul speaks of a thief....
5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
Paul speaks of a drunk.......
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
Now Jesus speaks of a taking of a saint.....
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Then Jesus speaks of a thief.....
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Next, Jesus speaks of a drunk.....
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
This is not a scriptural coincidence, but Paul (sequentially) quoted the words of Jesus.....For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord....
Per Matt 25(parable of the bridegroom), is the church sleeping or in great peril?
mens churches have never woken up, they fell asleep centuries ago, like prawns in a pot cold water, falling asleep as the temperature rises, no they will not be ready because they refused o go to Him to be made ready. They chose teh wide path,
101G
Well-Known Member
Addressing the OP, not having read all of the posts, but consider this as who is "TAKEN" first, scripture, The parable of the tares. Matthew 13:24 "Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:" Matthew 13:25 "But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way." Matthew 13:26 "But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also." Matthew 13:27 "So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?" Matthew 13:28 "He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?" Matthew 13:29 "But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them." Matthew 13:30 "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."
as to the door being shut, with the bridegroom, scripture, Revelation 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:15 "For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."
now lets be clear as to who enter, and cannot, Revelation 21:24 "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it." Revelation 21:25 "And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there." Revelation 21:26 "And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it." Revelation 21:27 "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."
so the wicked are taken "First".
PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
as to the door being shut, with the bridegroom, scripture, Revelation 22:14 "Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22:15 "For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie."
now lets be clear as to who enter, and cannot, Revelation 21:24 "And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it." Revelation 21:25 "And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there." Revelation 21:26 "And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it." Revelation 21:27 "And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life."
so the wicked are taken "First".
PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
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Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
This parable was being told to Israel. And since Israel at that time was in danger of imminent judgment, in 70 AD, this parable was intended to show them being an Israeli was not sufficient for Salvation. If final Salvation was to be achieved, there would be a separation in Israel between those who truly follow God and those who hide great sin beneath the appearance of legal observance.
Note that the virgins were not married--this was Old Covenant, and Israel was still looking forward to final marriage with God. Marriage had only been temporary under the Law, because the nation was continually set back, due to the mixture of sin with righteousness in Israel.
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