COVID and church

It's an Ace2 virus... it's not a respiratory system virus per say as an influenza virus is.

Sure it will give you a cough...but your whole endocrine system is affected as well as your nervous system, cardiovascular system and others. It will give you blood clots. It will make you sterile or infertile and the other side effects going with all that. It will make you extremely tired.

There's the whole respiratory system thing...but it's mainly because of the blood clots in the lungs.

Enoch111 said:

1. Only 1 in 8 hospitals is maxed out according to the reports I have checked, which is only 12.5% of all hospitals.

2. The real problem is that there is no trustworthy information about this scamdemic any more.

3. The mainstream media have been deliberately misleading the public since they wish to promote fear-mongering, panic, and loss of liberties. So you cannot trust CNN, ABC, NBC, MSN, MSNBC, NPR, etc. Neither the NY Times, the NY Post, nor the Washington Post.

4. Public health officials have been lying to everyone since January. Do we know whether hospitals are being filled with flu patients who are being counted as COVID patients? After all this is the flu season. We know that CDC has been fudging the data since the beginning.

5. Hospitals have been encouraged to over-report COVID incidents and deaths since there is a monetary incentive through Medicare. Also it has been established that COVID patients should not be put on ventilators (which do more harm than good) but the cash incentive is huge ($39,000).

6. And why is HCQ (the combo package) still being blocked by the FDA, AMA, NIH, CDC at this time when it could prevent much of this hospitalization? This is the key issue. Claiming to want to save lives and then blocking life-saving treatments is criminal.

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Where are you getting all of this information? Please provide links to your sources.

Enoch111 said:

Please don't talk to me about "intellectual dishonesty". I have posted numerous original articles from doctors and epidemiologists (and other respected professionals) which have all exposed the COVID fraud. The onus is on you to do a thorough search of what has been published.

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So far, the way you are conducting yourself is not confidence inspiring at all. If you are truly confident in your claims of having the truth, then please back it all up with links to hard evidence. Otherwise, I can only assume you are intellectually dishonest.

The more you resist my request for links to hard evidence, the more you are proving my point. Those genuinely interested in the truth feel no need to play these kind of games just to be "right".

Devin Wintch said:

The church next to my house sings which totally bi-passes the mask protection, like repeated coughing in a mask.

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We sing too and proudly. Christian Church is interactive not sitting like a bump on a log, I know Mormonism is not Christian so I don't know how the non Christians religions do things. No singing do not by pass mask protection that is a myth.

Rene Loup said:

Relying purely on Contradictions in a debate will only amount to your word versus theirs at absolute best.

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I don't have to "debate" this issue with you or anyone else. The facts speak for themselves. If you love tyranny you will find every excuse to support it.

COVID-19 and Resisting Government Malfeasance
By Spike Hampson

In response to the COVID-19 pandemic, the governments of the United States have mistreated the citizens of the country by destroying their means of making a living and limiting their freedom of movement. Government powers have been used to shut down enterprises, knowing full well that people's livelihoods depend on their operation. Government edicts have prohibited people from moving freely in small localities and even between states.

Individual citizens have the right to move about and do work for the purpose of maintaining themselves and their families as long as their work is not harming others. The government's judicial system is authorized to interfere only if that work does such harm.

A tradition has developed that the executive branches of our governments can, in the event of an emergency, interfere in these rights to work and to move about, but the understanding always has been that the interference would be a temporary, stopgap measure that would be withdrawn as soon as possible.

The COVID-19 pandemic was at first a mysterious adversary. Its infectiousness and deadliness were unknown. So the citizens initially accepted the imposition of limits to their innate rights to move freely and work, but since the arrival in our country of this new virus, we have clearly learned that:

1. COVID-19 is not as deadly as initially feared.
2. The risk of death is very much limited to those who are elderly and infirm.
3. Various low-cost and low-risk medications effectively treat the disease.
4. Public health officials cannot accurately forecast the spread of the virus.
5. Tabulations of deaths from the virus are inflated.
6. Nobody knows how effective masks are.
7. And government directives are arbitrary, inconsistent, and contradictory.

Our governments cannot credibly refute any of these seven lessons learned. They have had a year to deal with this supposed emergency, yet they offer no specifics regarding why it should continue to be treated as such.

We the citizens, therefore, must hold our governments responsible for an ongoing denial of our right to work and move about. With each passing month, it becomes increasingly clear that these governments are reluctant to surrender a source of power over us that they have no right to exercise. The time has come to reject their authority.

The problem we have is that a significant portion of the national population supports these illegitimate limits on our rights to work and movement and, indeed, peaceable assembly. Those who support this governmental overreach are often unaffected by it.

Government employees continue to work, or at least to get paid whether they work or not. Knowledge workers and office workers who do not have to be in a specific place where actual calories get expended to any significant degree feel limited adverse effects from government policies regarding COVID-19. Unemployed people and others who are sustained by public assistance also rarely suffer much from the regulations and stipulations placed on the productive populace.

Most of those who suffer from governmental limits on work and movement are blue-collar workers and employed families in which both spouses must work to pay the bills.

The many people who continue to support strictures base their view on the notion that the virus is an existential threat. But where is the evidence? That over 300,000 Americans have died from COVID-19 is weak evidence since the great majority of those deaths occurred in people who already were sick with other diseases.

The estimated incidence of comorbidities in those who die is very high — perhaps more than 90%. COVID-19 may have been the prime cause of death in some instances, but not all of them. Automatically coding COVID-19 as the cause of death even when comorbidities are present obviously leads to significant overcounting.

Most of those who view COVID-19 as a continuing existential threat have little skin in the game. Their relative immunity to the negative consequences of quarantines and lockdowns allows them to focus their attention on the potential benefits. For them, it is easy to ignore the illegality of imposing limits to work and movement based on the poorly documented existence of a temporary emergency.

Those of us who recognize the brazen lawlessness of current governmental actions to deal with COVID-19 have an obligation to resist this overreach. A first step would be to stop humbling ourselves before social norms and authority figures.

Not wearing masks ought to be a default position. We should avoid putting social pressure on those who do wear them, but unless we are at high risk of transmitting or contracting the disease, we should go wherever we want, whenever we want, and however we want without wearing a mask.

When challenged, we might ask for the specific data supporting the idea that masks are effective, but we should not argue the case, and as soon as the issue becomes contentious, we might readily don the mask. But never should we do so apologetically. If most of us behave this way, it should begin to force a reasoned discussion of the matter.

We should move around in public as we wish, not just alone, but in groups as large as we commonly did before the pandemic — all without wearing masks. In private premises open to the public, we should be immediately ready to conform when asked to don a mask, but we should not do so until specifically asked — even when there is a posted notice that masks are required. The same holds true even for public facilities like airports, bus stations, sports arenas, or health clinics. We must behave in this manner even in places where we know authority figures are likely to be the ones who insist on a mask — police stations, for example.

We should travel free of worry about consequences. If a bus is running from our place to New York City, and we want to go to New York city, we should take it with masks in our pockets. If a community has a 10:00 P.M. curfew that we know is not universally enforced, we should ignore it. If the authorities have been systematically enforcing the curfew and fining or incarcerating those who ignore it, then for now, we should not break the curfew, but if our initial soft resistance is ineffective, the day may come when we must defy the standing order at personal cost.

For now, the aim is just to establish that a large part of the American population does not believe that mask-wearing or limitations on freedom of movement are legitimate government actions. This will do nothing to alleviate the unjust alienation of citizens from their work, but at this stage overt, resistance by individual enterprises will only bring down excessive punishment, and complaints from the unemployed will go unheeded.

We must start with what is feasible. Challenging government diktats regarding masks and personal movement confronts governmental overreach where it is most vulnerable. If enough people resist in this arena, the governments will not be able to cope with the large numbers and geographic spread of this resistance to the rules — especially if the resistance is neither violent nor totally uncooperative.

This is just the start. For now, we should passively resist directives to wear a mask or to limit our freedom of movement because this can drain the resources and sap the will of central authority. In the process, we become visible, and this will stimulate a sense of solidarity among freedom-loving citizens.

In the long run, though, our objective will be to eradicate all governmental efforts to control the individual.

https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2020/12/covid19_and_resisting_government_malfeasance.html

Enoch111 said:

I don't have to "debate" this issue with you or anyone else.

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You are on a public forum that promotes discussion and debate. If you cannot handle having your views being challenged like this, then what is your reason for engaging in these kind of discussions in the first place?

Enoch111 said:

The facts speak for themselves.

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American Thinker - Media Bias Fact Check

Enoch111 said:

If you love tyranny you will find every excuse to support it.

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When making accusations like that, you better have hard evidence. Otherwise, that only amounts to slander in legal settings.[1] Take it even further and we have more situations like McCarthyism[3] and the Salem Witch Trials.[4]

As for me, I am making efforts to obey the Bible's teachings, such as obeying the government along with God's Laws.[2]

1. Libel and Slander
2. Luke 20:20-26, Mark 12:13-17, Matthew 22:15-22, 1 Peter 2:11-25, Romans 13:1-7
3. McCarthyism
   
4. Salem Witch Trials

I like what Manitoba premier Brian Pallister said. "If you don't think COVID is real, you are an idiot."

Rene Loup said:

You are on a public forum that promotes discussion and debate

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And you have posted an assessment of American Thinker which is blatantly false. It claims that factual reporting by American Thinker is low. But that is a complete lie.

Have you ever read anything posted on American Thinker? I doubt it. As to debating with you or anyone else, that is definitely not why I post. I am bringing truth to this forum, while you have already shown that you are promoting lies, as noted above. I will request all readers to check out American Thinker for themselves and confirm what I have just said.

Enoch111 said:

And you have posted an assessment of American Thinker which is blatantly false. It claims that factual reporting by American Thinker is low. But that is a complete lie.

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And where is your evidence? Without any evidence at all, all it amounts to is your word versus mine.

Enoch111 said:

Have you ever read anything posted on American Thinker? I doubt it. As to debating with you or anyone else, that is definitely not why I post. I am bringing truth to this forum, while you have already shown that you are promoting lies, as noted above. I will request all readers to check out American Thinker for themselves and confirm what I have just said.

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Heathen religions and death cults also claim to bring truth. Conspiracy theorists also claim to bring truth. Con artists also claim to bring truth. People making unsubstantiated or even outright false rape accusations during #MeToo also claim to bring truth. People claiming to have been abducted by aliens also claim to bring truth.

Do you expect me to take these people at their word without any hard evidence? If so, why?

Those who are genuinely interested in the truth must be prepared to be proven wrong from time to time. This is why I can only afford to be 99% sure at very highest when I am seeking truth. Otherwise, I am not seeking truth, only validation.

While not aimed towards anyone specifically, simply expecting others to take your word, without evidence, because you claim to be an infallible source of information, is consistent with Narcissism.[1] The Bible[2] and many others[3][4][5] do not hold such people in high esteem.

Symptoms
Signs and symptoms of narcissistic personality disorder and the severity of symptoms vary. People with the disorder can:

• Have an exaggerated sense of self-importance
• Have a sense of entitlement and require constant, excessive admiration
• Expect to be recognized as superior even without achievements that warrant it
• Exaggerate achievements and talents
• Be preoccupied with fantasies about success, power, brilliance, beauty or the perfect mate
• Believe they are superior and can only associate with equally special people
• Monopolize conversations and belittle or look down on people they perceive as inferior
• Expect special favors and unquestioning compliance with their expectations
• Take advantage of others to get what they want
• Have an inability or unwillingness to recognize the needs and feelings of others
• Be envious of others and believe others envy them
• Behave in an arrogant or haughty manner, coming across as conceited, boastful and pretentious
• Insist on having the best of everything — for instance, the best car or office

At the same time, people with narcissistic personality disorder have trouble handling anything they perceive as criticism, and they can:

• Become impatient or angry when they don't receive special treatment
• Have significant interpersonal problems and easily feel slighted
• React with rage or contempt and try to belittle the other person to make themselves appear superior
• Have difficulty regulating emotions and behavior
• Experience major problems dealing with stress and adapting to change
• Feel depressed and moody because they fall short of perfection
• Have secret feelings of insecurity, shame, vulnerability and humiliation

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1. Narcissistic personality disorder - Symptoms and causes
2. Proverbs 3:32-35, 8:13, 11:1-3, 16:18-21, 18:12-13, 26:12, 29:22-23, 2 Timothy 3:1-9
3. How Narcissistic Leaders Destroy from Within
4. Why Do Narcissists Lose Popularity Over Time?
5. The Narcissism Epidemic: Living in the Age of Entitlement (2010) - Jean M. Twenge & W. Keith Campbell

On December 29, 2020 at roughly 10:35 PM Eastern Time, I have added 2 Timothy 3:1-9 to citation [2]. My apologies, I am still learning because I am a fallible human being.

Rene Loup said:

While not aimed towards anyone specifically, simply expecting others to take your word, without evidence, because you claim to be an infallible source of information, is consistent with Narcissism

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There's A LOT of that going around.

Adoration said:

There's A LOT of that going around.

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This is being documented and studied.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10]

Major proponents of these studies include American Professor of Psychology Jean Twenge[11][14] and American social psychologist W. Keith Campbell.[12][13]

1. The Narcissism Epidemic: Living in the Age of Entitlement (2010) - Jean M. Twenge & W. Keith Campbell
2. Does a narcissism epidemic exist in modern western societies? Comparing narcissism and self-esteem in East and West Germany
3. 2 Timothy 3:1-9
4. www.youtube.com/TheFuelProject - The Coming Summer | Episode 10 - Narcissism & Materialism Will Be Evident
5. www.youtube.com/TheFuelProject - The Coming Summer | Episode 11 - Disrespect Will Be Common
6. www.youtube.com/TheFuelProject - The Coming Summer | Episode 12 - Religious Hypocrisy Will Abound
7. Reflecting on narcissism
8. (PDF) Further Evidence of an Increase in Narcissism Among College Students
9. https://commons.lib.jmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1068&context=edspec201019
10. What, Me Care? Young Are Less Empathetic
11. Jean Twenge - Wikipedia
12. W. Keith Campbell - Wikipedia
13. W. Keith Campbell | The Department of Psychology
14. SDSU Department of Psychology – Jean Twenge, Ph.D

Rene Loup said:

Major proponents of these studies include American Professor of Psychology Jean Twenge[11][14] and American social psychologist W. Keith Campbell.[12][13]

1. The Narcissism Epidemic: Living in the Age of Entitlement (2010) - Jean M. Twenge & W. Keith Campbell
2. Does a narcissism epidemic exist in modern western societies? Comparing narcissism and self-esteem in East and West Germany
3. 2 Timothy 3:1-9
4. www.youtube.com/TheFuelProject - The Coming Summer | Episode 10 - Narcissism & Materialism Will Be Evident
5. www.youtube.com/TheFuelProject - The Coming Summer | Episode 11 - Disrespect Will Be Common
6. www.youtube.com/TheFuelProject - The Coming Summer | Episode 12 - Religious Hypocrisy Will Abound
7. Reflecting on narcissism
8. (PDF) Further Evidence of an Increase in Narcissism Among College Students
9. https://commons.lib.jmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1068&context=edspec201019
10. What, Me Care? Young Are Less Empathetic
11. Jean Twenge - Wikipedia
12. W. Keith Campbell - Wikipedia
13. W. Keith Campbell | The Department of Psychology
14. SDSU Department of Psychology – Jean Twenge, Ph.D

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Wow... well... I don't have to study it... I see it all over the place... and I think the president just made it even more popular... and acceptable.

Adoration said:

Wow... well... I don't have to study it... I see it all over the place... and I think the president just made it even more popular... and acceptable.

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Sometimes the proof is in the pudding, though it still greatly helps to have it documented,[1] backed with evidence,[2] and used to educate society[3] in hopes of discouraging ignorance and promoting personal responsibility.[4]

1. Book of Numbers
   
2. Deuteronomy 5:20, 17:1-7, 19:15-21, 22:13-30, Exodus 20:16, 23:1, Proverbs 6:16-19
   
3. Proverbs 9:9, 16:16, 18:15, 22:29
   
4. James 1:19-27, Luke 12:47-48

Enoch111 said:

And you have posted an assessment of American Thinker which is blatantly false. It claims that factual reporting by American Thinker is low. But that is a complete lie.

Have you ever read anything posted on American Thinker? I doubt it. As to debating with you or anyone else, that is definitely not why I post. I am bringing truth to this forum, while you have already shown that you are promoting lies, as noted above. I will request all readers to check out American Thinker for themselves and confirm what I have just said.

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On another note, what is happening between us is nothing new under the sun.[1]

Throughout the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, the Lord Jesus Christ engaged in discussion and debate in order to correct abuses in the Jewish religion. He did so by providing prodigious[15] logical arguments,[2] even backing it up with scriptural evidence,[3] as well as physical evidence,[17] and sometimes calling a spade a spade, providing it has basis in reality.[4] Jesus Christ even provided challenges people were unwilling to even attempt.[16]

The Pharisees in return? When they could not win with their own side of the debate, they fought dirty by using logical fallacies (such as Double Binding).[24] When that didn't work,[5][24] they resorted to baseless slander. When that didn't work,[6] they had Jesus Christ publicly executed like a common criminal.[7] When that didn't work,[8] they resorted to even more slander and lies.[9]

So based on our interactions so far, you have made dangerous claims with weak evidence,[10][11] if even presented at all after repeated requests,[12][16][19][20][22] as well as baseless accusations of deception on my part after I challenged your views.[12] You even outright rejected the evidence I provided[12][13][22] because you didn't like what I had to say,[12][18][22] the very same thing you are accusing me of doing, which is hypocrisy.[14][23]

Now, if you really are interested in spreading truth, then please provide a rational counter-argument backed with credible evidence. The ball is now in your court. People are watching and will know us by our fruits.[21]

1. Ecclesiastes 1:1-11
2. Luke 5:17-39, 7:36-50, 11:1-13, 12:13-21, 13:10-17, 14:1-35, 15:1-32, 16:1-18, 18:1-8, 19:11-27, Mark 2:1-28, 3:1-6, 4:21-34, Matthew 5:1-7:29, 9:1-17, 13:1-52, 18:1-35, 20:1-16, 21:28-44, 25:1-46
3. Luke 4:1-30, 6:1-10, 8:1-15, 10:25-37, Mark 2:1-28, 4:1-20, 7:1-23, 9:42-50, 10:1-12, 11:1-11, 12:1-12, 12:18-37, 20:9-19, Matthew 4:1-11, 8:14-16, 9:9-13, 12:1-14, 12:38-42, 15:1-20, 21:12-17, 22:34-46
4. John 9:35-41, Luke 6:17-45, 11:37-12:12, 13:1-9, 13:31-35, 17:1-10, 18:9-14, Matthew 11:20-24, 18:1-9, 23:13-38,
5. Luke 20:20-40, Mark 12:13-17, Matthew 22:15-33
6. Luke 11:14-28, Mark 3:20-35, 9:42-50, Matthew 9:1-8, 9:27-34, 12:22-36
7. John 18:1-19:37, Luke 22:1-23:49, Mark 14:12-15:41, Matthew 26:1-56
8. Luke 24:1-12, Mark 16:1-8, Matthew 28:1-10
9. Matthew 28:11-15
   
10. COVID and church
    
11. COVID and church
    
12. COVID and church
    
13. Luke 11:29-32, 12:54-59, 16:19-31, Mark 6:1-5, Matthew 16:1-12
14. Mark 12:38-40, Matthew 7:1-6, 23:1-12
15. Luke 2:41-52
16. Luke 18:18-30, Mark 10:17-31, Matthew 19:16-30
17. John 20:1-29, Luke 24:36-43
18. John 6:60-66
19. Are the clinical trials for COVID vaccines real tests against real infections?
20. COVID and church
21. 1 Corinthians 13:1-13, Galatians 5:7-25, Matthew 5:1-7:29, 7:15-23, 1 Peter 3:8-22
22. COVID and church
23. Definition of HYPOCRISY
24. APA Dictionary of Psychology

Note: On December 29, 2020, roughly 5:54 PM Eastern Time, Citation [21] has been updated for clarification on knowing by our fruits. My apologies, I am still learning because I am a fallible human being.

Michael1985 said:

The more people gather with each other, the more potential there is for virus spread. I'm fully supportive of any measures that can reduce that risk, including restricting or prohibiting faith-based gatherings. Our first responsibility is to protect our fellow man, and our devotion to our Almighty God can certainly be undertaken in private.

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In Canada, every province is different, and Acts 2.42 activities are not in principle incompatible with the care and precautions that need to be taken.

amigo de christo said:

I see adventists , mormons , jehovas , baptists , protestant and catholic all merging more and more .
But it does not suprise me . IF our focus is on religion , BUT NOT on CHRIST we will be sucked right into this lie .
The all inclusive unity is dangerous , and its love is false . its social gosple is false .
I am not saying this to be mean to anyone . I say it out of great love , because in my heart i desire no one to perish .

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Well said.

Devin Wintch said:

I had to go to the ER last night and overheard a minister being admitted with COVID symptoms. Here's the Fox news: L.A. County health officials: Don’t attend indoor church services no matter what judge says

My advice: be careful, maybe faith has nothing to do with this? I'll continue online worship services until the virus is under control. I'm Mormon and we already had Christmas service: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1QY3jlpcabqOYLZZUxRhjA/live So today I'm watching the Catholic Mass: Home | CatholicTV

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It's a difficult judgement where the angels protect us from dashing our foot against a stone vs jumping over it and of a cliff expecting salvation. Psalm 91 is the psalm used now to prove God protects us. What I see in common though is the person is being protected against surrounding circumstances they have no control over as opposed to deliberately diving into danger. That said, I do not believe the Lord would have us do things like giving a holy kiss, laying on of hands (especially for the sick) if it was dangerous or forbidden, and obeying a command is not placing one in deliberate danger. So the church to be an effective witness should be healing people as that's what Jesus would be doing in this pandemic. At the expense of sounding a tad cruel, I can't help but to think there's some sort of spiritual disconnect in a congregation that comes down sick as easily as if they were out celebrating in a bar. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying a Christian may not become sick as maybe there are other reasons for that individual. However, when the whole congregation becomes a major spreader in the community, they have not benefited the cause of Christ any. At the very least, if they are not healing people, most should stay well instead of infecting the whole congregation and then spreading it outside yet to boot. So when these unconstitutional restrictions go into place by the aspiring beast system to come, the church should continue getting together to demonstrate the power of God -- only those who show sick symptoms should stay home as maybe there's a personal issue there(for the elders to lay hands on) But the world does not understand that's why we have to get out from under our bushels and add salt to our testimony to show there's a healing God.