Since you are much smarter than I why don't you show where I am wrong? Instead you are having fun by mocking me. That is what the Jews did to Jesus when they said he should come down from the cross. I am aware of the mocking spirit and it is not from God. --- My name is not Richy and unless you can say my name you are not talking to me.
Do Works Really Indicate Faith?
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Since you are much smarter than I why don't you show where I am wrong? Instead you are having fun by mocking me. That is what the Jews did to Jesus when they said he should come down from the cross. I am aware of the mocking spirit and it is not from God. --- My name is not Richy and unless you can say my name you are not talking to me.
Honestly, comparing me to the Jews that mocked Jesus on the cross? Do you really think so highly of yourself that you fit that comparison?
I am not mocking you. I am asking you to defend your position beyond the statement, "I believe it does."
If that is good enough, then me saying, "I believe it doesn't" is enough to refute it.
You provide no evidence whatsoever that the scripture you produce has anything at all to do with the sheep and the goats Jesus spoke of in Matthew 25. And the scripture itself does not indicate what you claim, either.
It really is as simple as that.
I am open to being wrong and but you have yet to provide any type of evidence - whatsoever - to support this statement you made:
"The sheep and goat judgement is not a judgement of the children of God under grace. It is a judgement of the Gentile nations to see which ones will go into the 1000 year reign of Christ on this earth. God made a promise to Abraham that those that blessed the Jews would be blessed. It has nothing to do with the children of God under grace. "
Stating later, "It is clearly speaking of the GENTILE NATIONS" is again simply a statement of opinion and not of proof.
When in doubt take the passage in context of the entire chapter. Unfortunately, even in that case it does not support your opinion.
I am not mocking you. I am asking you to defend your position beyond the statement, "I believe it does."
If that is good enough, then me saying, "I believe it doesn't" is enough to refute it.
You provide no evidence whatsoever that the scripture you produce has anything at all to do with the sheep and the goats Jesus spoke of in Matthew 25. And the scripture itself does not indicate what you claim, either.
It really is as simple as that.
I am open to being wrong and but you have yet to provide any type of evidence - whatsoever - to support this statement you made:
"The sheep and goat judgement is not a judgement of the children of God under grace. It is a judgement of the Gentile nations to see which ones will go into the 1000 year reign of Christ on this earth. God made a promise to Abraham that those that blessed the Jews would be blessed. It has nothing to do with the children of God under grace. "
Stating later, "It is clearly speaking of the GENTILE NATIONS" is again simply a statement of opinion and not of proof.
When in doubt take the passage in context of the entire chapter. Unfortunately, even in that case it does not support your opinion.
" by faith Abraham as good as offered up his son isaac and it was counted to him as righteous and by faith Rahab the harlot let the spies out by another way"
Works of faith are the things we do which display's our belief and trust in God. Why was Abraham willing to sacrifice his son? because he 'reckoned God could raise him up from the dead' Abraham had faith in Gods ability to resurrected people and so his 'works of faith' were seen in his willingness to sacrifice his only son.
Rahab had faith in Gods ability to grant victory to his people and so she chose to stand on the side of Gods people by helping the 2 spies escape the city of jericho which put her own life at risk...and for that she was rewarded by God and became an ancestor of the Messiah.
Works of faith are anything we might do which show our trust in God.
Abraham was declared righteous by simply being what God said long before Isaac was born, see Gen 15. No works involved. Are we to show faith in God by our works or by faith in His promises? People doing good works do them for many reasons. Mostly to put on a show of rigtheousness. But God knows those that have faith in Him.
"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" - James 2:20-21
"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." - James 1:27
-- God expects our Christianity to be active.
"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." - James 1:27
-- God expects our Christianity to be active.
Genesis 15:1-6
15 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying,"Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward."
2 But Abram said, "Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?"
3 Then Abram said, "Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!"
4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
NKJV
Romans 4:3
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
NKJV
Galatians 3:5-9
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? —
6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
NKJV
15 After these things the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision, saying,"Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your exceedingly great reward."
2 But Abram said, "Lord God, what will You give me, seeing I go childless, and the heir of my house is Eliezer of Damascus?"
3 Then Abram said, "Look, You have given me no offspring; indeed one born in my house is my heir!"
4 And behold, the word of the Lord came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the Lord, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
NKJV
Romans 4:3
3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
NKJV
Galatians 3:5-9
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? —
6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.
8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, "In you all the nations shall be blessed."
9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
NKJV
I appreciate your scripture posting.
Especially since it in no way refutes what I said in my previous post:
"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" - James 2:20-21
Look, it's really simple.
Like John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." - KJV
So, if you choose not to actually dwell on the scripture you assume "I believe that God exists therefore I will not perish but have everlasting life."
However, James 2:19 states, "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder." - NIV
Does it mean that since they 'believe' in God, they are going to heaven? Of course not.
If you are going to "believe" as mentioned in John 3:16 you are expected to proactively DO something.
Ask Jesus to be your Lord and Savior and renounce sin. 'Ask' and 'renounce' are verbs. Just believing in Jesus is not going to save you.
Jesus also has expectations for us. He says Himself that we are to preach the Gospel to all nations, sending us out like sheep among wolves. Sure sounds like he has expectations of actual activity for us.
He also calls us to give food to the hungry, drink to the thirsty, clothes to the naked, visit the imprisoned, hospitalized and lonely, etc.
As it says in James: "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." - James 1:27
In other words, He calls us to actually LIVE the belief we say we have.
Especially since it in no way refutes what I said in my previous post:
"But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" - James 2:20-21
Look, it's really simple.
Like John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." - KJV
So, if you choose not to actually dwell on the scripture you assume "I believe that God exists therefore I will not perish but have everlasting life."
However, James 2:19 states, "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder." - NIV
Does it mean that since they 'believe' in God, they are going to heaven? Of course not.
If you are going to "believe" as mentioned in John 3:16 you are expected to proactively DO something.
Ask Jesus to be your Lord and Savior and renounce sin. 'Ask' and 'renounce' are verbs. Just believing in Jesus is not going to save you.
Jesus also has expectations for us. He says Himself that we are to preach the Gospel to all nations, sending us out like sheep among wolves. Sure sounds like he has expectations of actual activity for us.
He also calls us to give food to the hungry, drink to the thirsty, clothes to the naked, visit the imprisoned, hospitalized and lonely, etc.
As it says in James: "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." - James 1:27
In other words, He calls us to actually LIVE the belief we say we have.
Was James confused? Or was he still preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, which included the Law?
James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)
No, he was not!!!!!!! ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God.
Gen 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)
Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that He did. Paul accurately reports this. It seems that James, in order to mix salvation by works and faith, did not consider this fact in the scriptures. It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.
James writes:
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account. Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.
What James wrote, as shown above, is a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Gen 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.
In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. Here are some facts that support my opinion. I find them interesting.
1. The word “Law” is found in 18 places
2. The word “grace” is found in 2 places
3. The word “Christ” is found in 2 places
4. The word “Justified” is found in 2 place with the words “by works” after them
5. The words “by faith” is found 1 time (justified by works and not by faith only)
6. The word “cross” is not found
7. The word “reconciled” is not found
8. The word “sanctified” is not found
9. The word “saved” is not found
10. The words “in Christ” are not found
Written by: Richard Burger, 2003. Revised 2009
James 2:20-21
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar?
(NKJ)
No, he was not!!!!!!! ---- He was accounted righteous before God several years earlier, BEFORE the birth of Isaac, and before he had done anything to "prove" his faith in God.
Gen 15:4-6
4 And behold, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, "This one shall not be your heir, but one who will come from your own body shall be your heir."
5 Then He brought him outside and said, "Look now toward heaven, and count the stars if you are able to number them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be."
6 And he believed in the LORD, and He accounted it to him for righteousness.
(NKJ)
Not only that, but God accounted him righteous solely for his faith in His Promises, and not by anything that He did. Paul accurately reports this. It seems that James, in order to mix salvation by works and faith, did not consider this fact in the scriptures. It was not until Genesis 22, many years after Isaac was born, when Abraham was well over 100 years old, that he agreed to offer Isaac.
James writes:
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
Neither of those last two statements jives with the Genesis 15:4-6 account. Nowhere does the OT Scripture say that Abraham "was called God's friend" BECAUSE he was willing to offer up his son Isaac. In Isaiah 41:8 it states that God called Abraham His friend but nowhere in the context of the chapter does He say it was because Abraham offered up his son Isaac.
What James wrote, as shown above, is a direct contradiction of the Gospel that Paul taught and the account given in Gen 15:4-6. Abraham was righteous before God solely because he believed God’s promises.
In my opinion the book of James is devoid of the gospel of grace as taught by Paul. Here are some facts that support my opinion. I find them interesting.
1. The word “Law” is found in 18 places
2. The word “grace” is found in 2 places
3. The word “Christ” is found in 2 places
4. The word “Justified” is found in 2 place with the words “by works” after them
5. The words “by faith” is found 1 time (justified by works and not by faith only)
6. The word “cross” is not found
7. The word “reconciled” is not found
8. The word “sanctified” is not found
9. The word “saved” is not found
10. The words “in Christ” are not found
Written by: Richard Burger, 2003. Revised 2009
Richard Burger,
We have just gone through this arguement in "Do Works Really Indicate Faith?" And it was beaten to death several times there. If you don't want to read James, don't read it. Post closed!
We have just gone through this arguement in "Do Works Really Indicate Faith?" And it was beaten to death several times there. If you don't want to read James, don't read it. Post closed!
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