How Could Have Satan Sinned?

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DNB

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1 John gives us a window into God's reality, and I would highlight vs 5 'This is the message we have heard from him (Jesus) and declare unto you, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all.

This qualifies the epitome of God.....as manifested in Jesus. He would rather die than violate love...because, he can do no other....it is his nature.

It is the evil one who attempts to paint God with his own colours....all the while wearing a cloak of piety. Thats how he does it. He makes us think that God has a dark side (as the Jews believe) but John gives testimony that they (Jesus's mates) have seen and heard and touched the life that was with the Father and declare 'there is no darkness in him at all.

Wow....what do I do with this? because it throws out any idea that God has a dark side to himself irrespective of what sort of theological language I couch it in.
Yes, QT, we all understand the rudimentary attributes of God, that God is love. But, getting past these elementary principles, we now have to harmonize the wrath of God, with His holiness. James alluded to Job as a historical fact. Therefore, the adversary requested from God the permission to put Job to the test, and God complied. And, not to mention the countless other consequences pronounced by God that those who do not obey His commands, will suffer accordingly (Deuteronomy 11:29).
The point becomes, is punishment for evil, holy? We have but no choice but to say, yes.
 
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quietthinker

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Yes, QT, we all understand the rudimentary attributes of God, that God is love. But, getting past these elementary principles, we now have to harmonize the wrath of God, with His holiness. James alluded to Job as a historical fact. Therefore, the adversary requested from God the permission to put Job to the test, and God complied. And, not to mention the countless other consequences pronounced by God that those who do not obey His commands, will suffer accordingly (Deuteronomy 11:29).
The point becomes, is punishment for evil, holy? We have but no choice but to say, yes.
On the available evidence interpreted in its context I think we do have a choice. Soooo, many question need to be asked.....questions that challenge ingrained assumptions......questions that if pursued upset the apple cart of established ideas....and wasn't Jesus one who did just that?

Let's say we take just one.....the promise right from the outset; 'if you eat of that fruit you will surely die.' Is that a judgement as in, 'you bad boy, now I will punish you, here, cop this.' or is the diminishing factor (dying you will die) the natural consequence of disobedience? ....the consequence of distancing oneself from life? (the source)

In Eden we have God looking for man after he disobeyed, not man looking for God.
The Jesus event is God coming to man while he was distanced not man coming to God.
God's initiative is for rescuing/finding the dying/lost.......it is men/women who choose to stay lost.....
so when the people cry for the rocks and the mountains to fall on them at Jesus' returns they distance themselves again....they would rather die than face The Lamb.....slain for their sin.....they pronounce upon themselves the promise....you shall surely die and they get what they have chosen.

There are others at this same event who believe another promise, the promise of solution which those calling for the rocks and mountains to fall on them didn't want to know about......these others trusted in Gods solution....these others are rescued from the clutches of self destruction through their faith in the promise and are raised to life immortal. Oh the wonder of both the glory and power of God to life and the mind-blowing deception and choice to self destruct.
 

quietthinker

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Lucifer and his (fallen) angels have the knowledge of good and evil. We all have the knowledge of good and evil, too (since the Fall). It was necessary for God to appoint one such as Lucifer (as it was necessary to have someone selected to play the role of Judas). The creation of evil was necessary for the spiritual development of the human race. If only good existed, if people were not capable of committing sins, then there would be no evil. However, if humans are not capable of committing sin, then we are only capable of following God (we have no free choice to rebel against God). In this case, we would all be automatons. At one point in our history we were all automatons with no choice as to weather we would follow God or not. Before the Fall humans did not have the knowledge of good and evil; we could only follow God. But, we followed God by instinct - it was not freely chosen. Like the lower animals who have sex without consenting to sex, these animals are not guilty of rape and therefore they are not committing any sin (non-consensual sex is deemed rape by humans). Like the lower animals who could kill other animals, but they were not guilty of murder, they were not committing any sin by their murders (humans deem killing to be sinful). This is the absence of sin that humans possessed before the Fall - like the lower animals, murder and rape are not deemed to be sinful because they had no free will. Now that we do have the knowledge of good and evil, as a result of Lucifer's beguiling us, we are now and forever capable of sinning against God - even when we enter Heaven. But, we are now also able to freely choose to follow God. Apparently, God preferred followers who would freely choose to follow Him; merely instinctual behavior, even if sinless (as animals are sinless), was not pleasing to God. He wanted followers who could choose to rebel, and yet chose to follow despite their freedom.
God is not playing a game!.......
 

DNB

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On the available evidence interpreted in its context I think we do have a choice. Soooo, many question need to be asked.....questions that challenge ingrained assumptions......questions that if pursued upset the apple cart of established ideas....and wasn't Jesus one who did just that?

Let's say we take just one.....the promise right from the outset; 'if you eat of that fruit you will surely die.' Is that a judgement as in, 'you bad boy, now I will punish you, here, cop this.' or is the diminishing factor (dying you will die) the natural consequence of disobedience? ....the consequence of distancing oneself from life? (the source)

In Eden we have God looking for man after he disobeyed, not man looking for God.
The Jesus event is God coming to man while he was distanced not man coming to God.
God's initiative is for rescuing/finding the dying/lost.......it is men/women who choose to stay lost.....
so when the people cry for the rocks and the mountains to fall on them at Jesus' returns they distance themselves again....they would rather die than face The Lamb.....slain for their sin.....they pronounce upon themselves the promise....you shall surely die and they get what they have chosen.

There are others at this same event who believe another promise, the promise of solution which those calling for the rocks and mountains to fall on them didn't want to know about......these others trusted in Gods solution....these others are rescued from the clutches of self destruction through their faith in the promise and are raised to life immortal. Oh the wonder of both the glory and power of God to life and the mind-blowing deception and choice to self destruct.
That was rather selective, but, all the same, not entirely accurate. 'Where there is no law, there is no sin'. God pronounced death upon Adam and Eve, because He desired death to be the consequence of their actions. God created all things, nothing occurs primarily or contingently, without God designing it as such. God exacted punishment on many nations, including Israel, because of their behaviour. As Solomon said, I have seen a man prosper due to his wickedness, and a man suffer due to his righteousness. Nothing is obligated to have a specific outcome, no matter how often the situation reoccurs. God inflicts His wrath as He so desires, and applies mercy as He sees fit, not because it is a universal, unchangeable law.
 

kcnalp

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Then you're not a Christian. True Christians recognize the True Church who has Jesus Christ as the head and that has God Holy Spirit. They meet there with fellow Christians.
Which "church" are you referring to? Kingdom Hall maybe.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Which "church" are you referring to? Kingdom Hall maybe.

Not any of us can decide to “join” this church simply by getting our names placed on some membership roll here on earth. Hebrews 12:23 (Dy) explains, this is the “church of the firstborn who are written in the heavens.” God is the one who selects the members. He sets them in the congregation as he pleases. (1 Corinthians 12:18) These are the ones who will be with Christ in heaven. And Jesus revealed that, far from including all who profess to be Christians, they are limited in number to 144,000.—Revelation 14:1-3; Luke 12:32

They are, indeed, a group of persons called out from spiritual darkness for a special purpose. While here on earth they boldly “declare abroad the excellencies” of the Most High God, who called them out of darkness into his wonderful light. (1 Peter 2:9) And, after their resurrection, they will have the grand privilege of ruling with Christ in his heavenly kingdom.—Luke 22:28-30.

The first members of this true church were all Jews (as were Jesus and his apostles) or circumcised Jewish converts. At Pentecost of 33 C.E.—just ten days after Jesus had ascended to heaven and opened the way for others to follow him in due time—Jehovah indicated his selection of these members through the pouring out of holy spirit. Their receiving of the spirit on that occasion bore witness to them that they were now God’s spiritual sons and heirs of the kingdom with Christ. (Acts 2:1-4, 16-21, 33; Romans 8:16, 17) But the membership of the true church did not remain all Jewish. Three and a half years after Jesus’ death the way was opened for Gentiles or non-Jews to be included. (Acts 10:30-33, 44; Romans 9:23, 24) So, in course of time, the true church came to have international membership.

Jesus Christ made clear that he himself is the foundation. He applied to himself the prophecy of Psalm 118:22 saying: “The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone.” (Matthew 21:42-44) The apostle Paul adds his testimony that Jesus is the “chief corner stone,” writing to Christians at Ephesus: “You are fellow citizens with the saints and the domestics of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.” (Ephesians 2:19, 20, Dy) The apostle was very definite about it, saying again: “For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid: which is Christ Jesus.”—1 Corinthians 3:11

Jesus, the Head, does not split up the body of his congregation into a clergy class and a laity class of the “common people.” He says to his followers: “Do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers. Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for your Leader is one, the Christ.” (Matthew 23:8-10) So Jesus shows that there is no division among those who make up the true church. However, he did arrange for men to take the lead in the Christian congregation, to serve the spiritual needs of their brothers and organize the work of preaching the good news. Jesus said such ones were not to “lord it over” their brothers but were to be like slaves or servants to them. (Matthew 20:25-28) Is that true of the clergymen you know?

To fit the Bible’s description of the true church, those who make it up must be united in their worship. In this regard the apostle Paul wrote: “I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.” (1 Corinthians 1:10) So we cannot Scripturally expect to find them scattered among all the conflicting religions of Christendom. They must be gathered together in just one organization. As Ephesians 4:4, 5 says of them: “One body there is, . . . one Lord, one faith.” It is vital for us to know what that “one faith” is.

The members of the true church under Christ their head are said to become “Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.” (Galatians 3:29) This promise is that all others of obedient mankind will bless themselves through Christ and his congregation. (Genesis 22:18) The Bible foretold that, at the time of the establishment of Christ’s kingdom, there would be only a remnant of these children of the “Jerusalem above,” God’s heavenly organization, left on earth. (Galatians 4:26; Revelation 12:10, 17) Jesus described these members of his church on earth as a “faithful and discreet slave.” And he said that such ones who were found faithfully serving at the time of his coming to his judgment work would be appointed “over all his belongings,” that is, over all the earthly interests of Christ’s kingdom. They would take the lead in the preaching of the good news of the established Kingdom to all the nations in the “time of the end.”—Matthew 24:14, 45-47; 25:19-23.

All those today who hope to gain eternal life in God’s new system need to recognize this arrangement. For Jesus said that, in this “time of the end,” he separates to a position of favor those doing good to the remaining ones on earth of his “brothers,” his joint heirs who make up the Christian congregation. (Matthew 25:31-40) These are the remaining ones of the “living stones” that are built up into a spiritual house or temple, “a place for God to inhabit by spirit.” (1 Peter 2:5; Ephesians 2:20-22) Those ‘doing good’ to the members of this temple class are described in the book of Revelation as a “great crowd” of persons who come under God’s protection. Note, too, that they gladly serve God “day and night in his temple,” that is, in association with the remnant of the spiritual temple class, the Christian congregation.—Revelation 7:9, 10, 15.

These sheeplike persons say, in effect, to the heirs of the promise made with Abraham: “We will go with you people, for we have heard that God is with you people.” (Zechariah 8:23) Even as those of the true church or congregation faithfully walk in Christ’s footsteps and proclaim the Kingdom message, so likewise these sheeplike ones ‘go with them,’ serving God right along with them. Are you doing that? If so, you have the prospect of receiving eternal life on earth, along with all the other blessings that will flow from Christ and his glorified congregation in the heavens.
 

kcnalp

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Not any of us can decide to “join” this church simply by getting our names placed on some membership roll here on earth. Hebrews 12:23 (Dy) explains, this is the “church of the firstborn who are written in the heavens.” God is the one who selects the members. He sets them in the congregation as he pleases. (1 Corinthians 12:18) These are the ones who will be with Christ in heaven. And Jesus revealed that, far from including all who profess to be Christians, they are limited in number to 144,000.—Revelation 14:1-3; Luke 12:32

They are, indeed, a group of persons called out from spiritual darkness for a special purpose. While here on earth they boldly “declare abroad the excellencies” of the Most High God, who called them out of darkness into his wonderful light. (1 Peter 2:9) And, after their resurrection, they will have the grand privilege of ruling with Christ in his heavenly kingdom.—Luke 22:28-30.

The first members of this true church were all Jews (as were Jesus and his apostles) or circumcised Jewish converts. At Pentecost of 33 C.E.—just ten days after Jesus had ascended to heaven and opened the way for others to follow him in due time—Jehovah indicated his selection of these members through the pouring out of holy spirit. Their receiving of the spirit on that occasion bore witness to them that they were now God’s spiritual sons and heirs of the kingdom with Christ. (Acts 2:1-4, 16-21, 33; Romans 8:16, 17) But the membership of the true church did not remain all Jewish. Three and a half years after Jesus’ death the way was opened for Gentiles or non-Jews to be included. (Acts 10:30-33, 44; Romans 9:23, 24) So, in course of time, the true church came to have international membership.

Jesus Christ made clear that he himself is the foundation. He applied to himself the prophecy of Psalm 118:22 saying: “The stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone.” (Matthew 21:42-44) The apostle Paul adds his testimony that Jesus is the “chief corner stone,” writing to Christians at Ephesus: “You are fellow citizens with the saints and the domestics of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.” (Ephesians 2:19, 20, Dy) The apostle was very definite about it, saying again: “For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid: which is Christ Jesus.”—1 Corinthians 3:11

Jesus, the Head, does not split up the body of his congregation into a clergy class and a laity class of the “common people.” He says to his followers: “Do not you be called Rabbi, for one is your teacher, whereas all you are brothers. Moreover, do not call anyone your father on earth, for one is your Father, the heavenly One. Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for your Leader is one, the Christ.” (Matthew 23:8-10) So Jesus shows that there is no division among those who make up the true church. However, he did arrange for men to take the lead in the Christian congregation, to serve the spiritual needs of their brothers and organize the work of preaching the good news. Jesus said such ones were not to “lord it over” their brothers but were to be like slaves or servants to them. (Matthew 20:25-28) Is that true of the clergymen you know?

To fit the Bible’s description of the true church, those who make it up must be united in their worship. In this regard the apostle Paul wrote: “I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.” (1 Corinthians 1:10) So we cannot Scripturally expect to find them scattered among all the conflicting religions of Christendom. They must be gathered together in just one organization. As Ephesians 4:4, 5 says of them: “One body there is, . . . one Lord, one faith.” It is vital for us to know what that “one faith” is.

The members of the true church under Christ their head are said to become “Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.” (Galatians 3:29) This promise is that all others of obedient mankind will bless themselves through Christ and his congregation. (Genesis 22:18) The Bible foretold that, at the time of the establishment of Christ’s kingdom, there would be only a remnant of these children of the “Jerusalem above,” God’s heavenly organization, left on earth. (Galatians 4:26; Revelation 12:10, 17) Jesus described these members of his church on earth as a “faithful and discreet slave.” And he said that such ones who were found faithfully serving at the time of his coming to his judgment work would be appointed “over all his belongings,” that is, over all the earthly interests of Christ’s kingdom. They would take the lead in the preaching of the good news of the established Kingdom to all the nations in the “time of the end.”—Matthew 24:14, 45-47; 25:19-23.

All those today who hope to gain eternal life in God’s new system need to recognize this arrangement. For Jesus said that, in this “time of the end,” he separates to a position of favor those doing good to the remaining ones on earth of his “brothers,” his joint heirs who make up the Christian congregation. (Matthew 25:31-40) These are the remaining ones of the “living stones” that are built up into a spiritual house or temple, “a place for God to inhabit by spirit.” (1 Peter 2:5; Ephesians 2:20-22) Those ‘doing good’ to the members of this temple class are described in the book of Revelation as a “great crowd” of persons who come under God’s protection. Note, too, that they gladly serve God “day and night in his temple,” that is, in association with the remnant of the spiritual temple class, the Christian congregation.—Revelation 7:9, 10, 15.

These sheeplike persons say, in effect, to the heirs of the promise made with Abraham: “We will go with you people, for we have heard that God is with you people.” (Zechariah 8:23) Even as those of the true church or congregation faithfully walk in Christ’s footsteps and proclaim the Kingdom message, so likewise these sheeplike ones ‘go with them,’ serving God right along with them. Are you doing that? If so, you have the prospect of receiving eternal life on earth, along with all the other blessings that will flow from Christ and his glorified congregation in the heavens.
You made a huge mistake by letting Kingdom Hall wash your brain instead of reading the Bible. The eternal Hell fire will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell fire.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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You made a huge mistake by letting Kingdom Hall wash your brain instead of reading the Bible. The eternal Hell fire will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell fire.

If you disagree, that's your choice. I keep noticing however that anyone who disagrees with you you call them brainwash. So be it. It's my right to disagree if I truly disagree. I will exercise that right because I have that right. You have the right to disagree. Why don't you just agree to disagree instead of insulting people when they exercise their right to disagree with you.
 

kcnalp

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If you disagree, that's your choice. I keep noticing however that anyone who disagrees with you you call them brainwash.
Do you know what God said will happen to "all liars". I doubt you even know.
So be it. It's my right to disagree if I truly disagree. I will exercise that right because I have that right. You have the right to disagree. Why don't you just agree to disagree instead of insulting people when they exercise their right to disagree with you.
The Bible is an insult to Kingdom Hall. That's why they twist the Hell out of it.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Do you know what God said will happen to "all liars". I doubt you even know.

The Bible is an insult to Kingdom Hall. That's why they twist the Hell out of it.

Yeah if someone tells you you're twisting the Bible or called a liar you would insult them for saying that too. You seem to think you're infallible in what you believe but if someone else believes that way you would probably insult them then too. All you can do is insult people if they disagree with you and you're probably twisted enough to believe that's Christian behaviour. So since you think what I post is so twisted and are lies don't reply to my posts. That's easy enough isn't it.
 

kcnalp

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Yeah if someone tells you you're twisting the Bible or called a liar you would insult them for saying that too.
Another lie!
You seem to think you're infallible
Another lie!
in what you believe but if someone else believes that way you would probably insult them then too.
Another lie!
All you can do is insult people if they disagree with you
Another lie!
and you're probably twisted enough to believe that's Christian behaviour.
Another lie!
So since you think what I post is so twisted and are lies don't reply to my posts. That's easy enough isn't it.
Is there anything you disagree with Kingdom Hall about?

Five lies in one post! Glad I'm not in your shoes on Judgment Day!
Revelation 21:8 (NKJV)
8 All liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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kcnalp said:
Revelation 21:8 (NKJV)
8 All liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.[/QUOTE]

Yes that's where a liar like you will be.
 

kcnalp

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kcnalp said:
Revelation 21:8 (NKJV)
8 All liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Yes that's where a liar like you will be.
I cited 5 of your lies in your last post. You can't even cite one lie. So that's 6 lies you just told!

Interesting how JW's don't believe in Hell unless it's someone they want to go to Hell. lol
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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I cited 5 of your lies in your last post. You can't even cite one lie. So that's 6 lies you just told!

Interesting how JW's don't believe in Hell unless it's someone they want to go to Hell. lol
Hey if you want to site what you believe to be lies that's fine with me. I however don't need to site lies when I know you're texting lies. You think I need to prove something like that to you when those lies have already been text by you. Also you're not going to agree with anybody if someone did cite one or ten of your lies. I know they're lies and I don't need to prove that to myself. What anyone else is going to believe they're going to believe what they choose to believe. They can see what you're texting on this site. They can decide for themselves what you text is or isn't a lie.
Oh on the thing about JW not believing in hell. Text what is the accurate truth if you're going to text it, which is that JW don't believe in the definition of what most people have for the word hell. What JW have always said is that the word hell is simply an English word that is used to translate the greek word Hades and the definition of Hades like the Hebrew word Sheol is simply the common grave of mankind.
 

keithr

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God is the one who selects the members. He sets them in the congregation as he pleases. (1 Corinthians 12:18) These are the ones who will be with Christ in heaven. And Jesus revealed that, far from including all who profess to be Christians, they are limited in number to 144,000.—Revelation 14:1-3; Luke 12:32
I think that interpretation of who the 144,000 are is incorrect. Note that they are not said to be in heaven, they are on the earth. They are on the earth when they are sealed (Rev 7:1-4), and also they're on the earth when Jesus is with them on Mount Zion (Rev 14:1). To understand who they are we need to understand what is written in the book of Revelation up to the point that they're mentioned.

Chapters two and three of Revelation are the letters from Jesus to the seven churches. These letters are also prophetic of the church during the Gospel age. Then in Rev. 4:1 John describes a voice from heaven saying “Come up hither, and I will show thee things which must be hereafter”, i.e. he was shown (symbolically) events that will happen at the end of the Gospel age, after the rapture (“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord”, 1 Th. 4:17).

John is then shown a vision of the throne of God, and he sees that around the throne there were twenty-four seats, and “upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold” (Rev 4:4). These twenty-four elders represent a group, and we know that they cannot be tribulation believers because they are contrasted with them in Rev. 7:13-14. They are not angels because they are contrasted with them in Rev. 7:11 (“all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts”). They are not the nation of Israel because they’re distinct from them (Rev. 7 & 12).

Their distinguishing characteristics are that they are on thrones (“To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne”, Rev. 3:21), they have white clothes (“He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment”, Rev 3:5), they have gold crowns (“be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life”, Rev. 2:10), and they sing the song of the redeemed (“And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth”, Rev 5:9,10). Note that they’re made kings and priests (and they’re not from Israel only, but from every nation), and only three groups are kings and priests: Melchisidec, Jesus and the Church. John identifies himself and the Church with this group too (Rev. 1:4-6 “John to the seven churches which are in Asia”, “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father”). These twenty-four elders clearly represent the resurrected Church.

Note that Rev. 4:5 says “there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne”, and Rev. 1:20 identifies these, “the seven lampstands are the seven churches” (NIV). So the churches that were on the earth in chapter one are in heaven in chapter four, which is in harmony with chapter four describing events after the rapture.

In the first three chapters of Revelation there are twenty-four titles of Jesus, which are all gentile or church type identifiers. From chapter four on (from the rapture on), the style is very Jewish, e.g. Rev. 5:5 “Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book and to loose the seven seals thereof”, and Rev. 5:6 “stood a Lamb as it had been slain” – the titles in bold are Jewish titles of the Messiah.

Chapter five describes Jesus unsealing and opening the scroll. Note for later that verse 8 says that the twenty-four elders each had harps, not palms. Chapters 6 to 19 describes the events that will occur in the 7 year period after the rapture (the so-called seventieth week of Daniel, Dan. 9:24-27). Jesus described this period, the “Great Tribulation”, in Mat. 24:14-22, which ends with “except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened”. This Great Tribulation affects the whole world, but particularly it affects Israel, hence in verse 16 He says, “Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains”. This shall be worse for Israel than the Holocaust, during which one in three Jews were killed. According to Zechariah 13:8,9 two out of three shall be killed (“And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein”).

The purpose of the Tribulation is part explained by Hosea 5:15: “I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me earnestly” (ASV). It is the day of the wrath of the Lamb (Rev. 6:16,17), His wrath against them who rejected Him and had Him crucified. It is also described as the day of LORD, “Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of Jehovah’s wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he will make an end, yea, a terrible end, of all them that dwell in the land” (Zep. 1:18, ASV). (John says in Rev. 1:10, “I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day”, i.e. he was about to see things pertaining to this time of tribulation.)

Note that the Tribulation doesn’t begin until the Lamb opens the seal, and the Lamb doesn’t receive the scroll until after the 24 elders have cast their crowns before the throne (Rev. 4:10), so the Church has been raptured or resurrected before the Tribulation starts, and the Church does not go through the Tribulation.

Revelation chapter 6 ends with “For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” Then chapter 7 answers that question. It tells that there will be some special servants who will be sealed - “Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads” (Rev. 7:3). It also tells us “the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel” (Rev. 7:4). It then goes on to detail that there will be 12,000 from 12 tribes of Israel (totalling 144,000). They are all Jews.

The work of the sealed servants then results in a lot of people being saved – “After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands” (Rev. 7:9). As mentioned above, the 24 elders, representing the Church from before the rapture, held harps in their hands (Rev. 5:8), whereas these saved people (now in heaven, before the throne) hold palms. These people are a different group (which is why John didn’t know who they were – Rev. 7:13,14); they are people who are saved out of the Tribulation as a result of the evangelising work of the 144,000 sealed servants from Israel, and they are before the throne of God “and serve him day and night” (Rev. 7:15).

Rev. 7:17 says that “God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes”. Why were they crying? Probably over lost opportunities. They may regret not having become Christians before the rapture and the Great Tribulation had started, so they missed out on becoming one of the elders, i.e. members of the body Christ and the bride of the Lamb. They missed out on the greater glory of sitting on thrones and reigning as kings and priests.
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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kcnalp said
Interesting how JW's don't believe in Hell unless it's someone they want to go to Hell. lol[/QUOTE]

I didn't say you were going to hell when you quoted Revelations 21:8 in post # 115. After you quoted Revelation 22:8 I said that's where a liar like you would be. The lake of fire isn't hell it's the second death like the scriptures say it is. So I never said you would be in he'll when you quoted Revelation 21:8.

Also hell doesn't have the definition of a place of fiery torment but instead has the same definition as the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word Hades. The definition of Sheol, Hades, and Hell is that they represent the common grave of mankind where both the righteous and unrighteous go to when they die.

An etymologist said: What’s the opposite of these words: “to torment and punish forever?” How about “to cover, conceal, and protect for a temporary period of time?” Shockingly, perhaps for some, this latter phrase is the etymology and original meaning for our modern English word “hell.” Moreover, it comes from a pagan source and not from the Bible. It also has little, if any, resemblance to our modern-day images of hell.
What this means is that when the translaters who were translating the Bible into the english language centuries ago, when they came across the Hebrew word Sheol or the Greek word Hades they would replace these words with the english word Hell. But since the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word Hades represented the common grave of mankind where both the righteous and unrighteous went when someone died, then the english word represents the common grave of mankind where both the righteous and unrighteous go when they die. It's not a place of fiery torment.
 

soul man

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When he was in Heaven and there's no sin in Heaven? Also, would God forgive him if he repented?

You can read it in scripture how he rebelled against God. That is all we have written and how God would handle him in any other way is speculation on the believers part.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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keithr said:
I think that interpretation of who the 144,000 are is incorrect. Note that they are not said to be in heaven, they are on the earth. They are on the earth when they sealed (Rev 7:1-4), and also they're on the earth when Jesus is with them on Mount Zion (Rev 14:1). To understand who they are we need to understand what is written in the book of Revelation up to the point that they're mentioned.[/QUOTE\]

I agree that the remnant of the 144000 are sealed while on earth. Most likely just before the great tribulation begins. I don't think I said anything about sealing or when they would be sealed in post#117. However as I said I do agree that this sealing happens while they're on earth. But these ones who are sealed on earth are the remnant of the 144000. This means that at the time of the sealing of this remnant of the 144000 Jesus Christ second presence would have already began and the vast majority of this 144000 would have already died so when Jesus second presence began the majority of the 144000 would have been resurrected to heaven. So there is a remnant of the 144000 on earth today. I do agree that when the tribulation begins all of the 144000 will be in heaven. The 144000 is the anointed global church with Jesus as head and has God's Holy Spirit.

I disagree however that Jesus is with the 144000 on earth.This no longer refers to the earthly Mount Zion, the geographical location of earthly Jerusalem, in which city human kings in the line of David used to reign. (1 Chronicles 11:4-7; 2 Chronicles 5:2) Jesus, after his death and resurrection in 33 C.E., was installed as a foundation cornerstone on the heavenly Mount Zion, the celestial location where Jehovah determined to place the “city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem.” So, “the Mount Zion” here represents the exalted position of Jesus and his joint heirs, the 144000 who make up heavenly Jerusalem, which is the Kingdom. (Hebrews 12:22, 28; Ephesians 3:6) It is the glorious royal situation to which Jehovah elevates them during the Lord’s day. 1 Peter 2:4-6; Luke 22:28-30; John 14:2, 3.

At Revelation 1:10 John says, "by inspiration I came to be in the Lord’s day, and I heard behind me a strong voice like that of a trumpet, saying: “What you see, write in a scroll and send it to the seven congregations. Notice that the congregations mentioned here actually existed in John’s day. All of them were situated in Asia Minor, right across the sea from Patmos. The counsel to the seven congregations deals with “things that are,” situations that really existed in the seven congregations at that time. The messages were valuable aids to faithful appointed elders in those seven congregations, as well as in all other congregations of anointed Christians of the time. Since the vision has its prime application in the Lord’s day, what Jesus says serves notice that similar conditions are to be expected in the congregation of anointed Christians during the invisible second presence of Jesus Christ—Revelation 1:10, 19.
The apostle Paul refers this Lord day as a time of judgment and of fulfillment of divine promises. (1 Corinthians 1:8; 2 Corinthians 1:14; Philippians 1:6, 10; 2:16) With the arrival of that “day,” Jehovah’s grand purposes move progressively and triumphantly toward their climax. That “day” begins with the crowning of Jesus as heavenly King. Even after Jesus executes judgment on Satan’s world. So Revelation is a book telling us things that will be happening during Jesus Christ invisible second presence.
At Revelation 4:1 John in vision penetrates the invisible heavens of Jehovah’s presence, exalted far above the physical universe. As though by entering an opened door, John is invited to feast his eyes on a breathtaking panorama of the ultimate spirit heavens where Jehovah himself is enthroned. (Psalm 11:4; Isaiah 66:1)
At Revelation 4:4 instead of priests, there are 24 elders, enthroned and crowned like kings. Who are these elders? They are anointed ones of the Christian congregation, resurrected and occupying the heavenly position Jehovah promised them. Why do I believe that?
First of all, they are wearing crowns. The Bible speaks of anointed Christians as gaining ‘an incorruptible crown’ and attaining to an endless life—immortality. (1 Corinthians 9:25; 15:53, 54) But since these 24 elders are sitting on thrones, the golden crowns in this context represent royal authority. (Compare Revelation 6:2; 14:14.) This supports the conclusion that the 24 elders portray Jesus’ anointed footstep followers in their heavenly position, for Jesus made a covenant with them to sit on thrones in his Kingdom. (Luke 22:28-30) Only Jesus and these 24 elders—not even the angels—are described as ruling in heaven in Jehovah’s presence.
This harmonizes with one of the letters to the seven congregation the Laodicean congregation of the promise that Jesus made: “To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne.” (Revelation 3:21)
These anointed Christians which are the 144000 are the true anointed church with Jesus as head and has God Holy Spirit.
Also I must tell you I believe in the resurrection not the rapture. As I said I agree the anointed church which is the 144000 will all be in heaven before the tribulation starts. That doesn't mean however that there are not Christians on Earth during the tribulation. There are Christians on Earth when the tribulation begins. These will be the ones who pass through the Tribulation and Armageddon into the new earth.
 
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keithr

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You can read it in scripture how he rebelled against God. That is all we have written and how God would handle him in any other way is speculation on the believers part.
The Bible does tell us more:

... that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; (Heb 2:14)
The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, (Rev 20:10)
Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. (Rev 20:14)
 

keithr

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But these ones who are sealed on earth are the remnant of the 144000. This means that at the time of the sealing of this remnant of the 144000 Jesus Christ second presence would have already began and the vast majority of this 144000 who have already died and since the second presence of Jesus began the majority of the 144000 who have died were resurrected to heaven.
However, that's not what it says in Revelation! The church is already resurrected and in heaven, wearing crowns and sitting on thrones around God's throne. Then later an angel says, “Don’t harm the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, until we have sealed the bondservants of our God on their foreheads!” (Rev 7:3). The angel mentions nothing about sealing a remnant and the angel hasn't at that point started sealing any servants. John says, "I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel" (Rev 7:4), so 144,000 are then sealed, and they are all Jewish ("children of Israel"). Earlier of the resurrected church it says, "They sang a new song, saying, “You are worthy to take the book, and to open its seals: for you were killed, and bought us for God with your blood, out of every tribe, language, people, and nation,”" (Rev 5:9). So the 144,000 are all Jewish, but the resurrected Christians in heaven have come from every nation and people, not just Jews, therefore the 144,000 Jews are not part of the Christian church.
 
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