Is pre-tribulation rapture a doctrine of demons?

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Randy Kluth

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do you like DC Talk, Tobymac ?

My wife and I like "City on my Knees," I think it's called. I'm a bit old for it, but I think Tobymac's a musical genius. I remember when DC Talk 1st came out. They did a video called "Heaven Bound"--we just loved the dancing! :) A couple ladies in our family are natural dancers. DC Talk did some wonderful songs--very artistically done. Some musicians are also artists. DC Talk was an artistic musical group. That much I really liked. But I have a limited amount of their music.
 
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ChristisGod

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My wife and I like "City on my Knees," I think it's called. I'm a bit old for it, but I think Tobymac's a musical genius. I remember when DC Talk 1st came out. They did a video called "Heaven Bound"--we just loved the dancing! :) A couple ladies in our family are natural dancers. DC Talk did some wonderful songs--very artistically done. Some musicians are also artists. DC Talk was an artistic musical group. That much I really liked. But I have a limited amount of their music.
My son is a professional Christian musician in Nashville and is good friends with Tate and knows Tmac. They were/are my favorite group. They are making a new album and will be touring after the album comes out.
 

farouk

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Before using hyperbole, it is good to consider context in Scripture passages: to whom do passages relating to the Lord's coming and future events refer: Israel? the church?

If one distinguishes these contexts, then clarity may emerge.

If one is determined not to distinguish these contexts, but to proceed to engage in vehement criticism of those who maybe think differently, then a lack of clarity is likely to be feature of the dialogue (which might even turn out to be a dialogue of the deaf).
 

liafailrock

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I am really starting to wonder if the pre-tribulation rapture is a doctrine of demons. It sounds wonderful but in reality I think it is a stretch to conclude that there will be a pre-trib rapture from scripture. Yet it is taught with confidence that it is truth. If it is a false teaching that Timothy warns about, many people will be devastated when they are not raptured before the poop hits the fan. I am not worried as I am sure God will protect us but if I spend my days attending a church that teaches this am I just itching my ears? I want truth, I can handle the truth.

My story is I went from believing in pre-Trib to not believing it. The clincher for me was the prophetic feasts of the Lord. Jesus did everything by the feasts, e.g. Passover foreshadowed crucifixion, Pentecost the giving of the Spirit, etc. So the end time feasts depict a one-time event with Christ coming again. The feast of Trumpets represents the gathering of his people and His Coming. It represents the coronation (and wedding) of the King, Hold that thought for a moment. Now, end-time evangelical and prophetic ministries picked up on the idea of the feasts (whereas 20-30 years ago they were downright hostile to them). They started associating the feast of Trumpets with the rapture. OK, so far so good since it depicts a gathering of people and His Coming. However, there is this supposed 7-year gap between "his coming in the air" just to make a u-turn back and "his coming to the earth". Atonement is the putting away of Satan and the Tabernacles feast is the millennium. So wait a minute. Did you catch that? There would have to be TWO feasts of trumpets or if you believe in only one (as all the others have only one fulfillment) then there's a seven year (not 10 day) gap between Trumpets and Atonement. Being a Sir Isaac Newton fan who goes strictly by time and the hour, that did not sit well at all with me. As a matter of fact, that is not even logical. My guess is that this doctrine of a pre-trib rapture, which is fairly recent historically, was born out of an ignorance or disdain for the feasts. Jews were considered apostates and replacement theology with the church grew. This was a time that they scared little kids into believing "He could come tonight" like a Santa that finds them naughty and left behind. No, Jesus won't come tonight. He knows the times and seasons. And we are not at one of them. I suppose, too, by extrapolation that this doctrine needs an "immortal soul" teaching to work as well. Folks that believe in an immortal soul believe that tonight they can "die and go to heaven" despite the fact Jesus said in John 3 that no man ever ascended into heaven (i.e. where God lives not heaven as in space). So they have no problem with a doctrine where the "soul lives separate from the dead body" in full consciousness and will "later be rejoined to the body in the resurrection when Jesus comes to earth". Now wait a minute. If one is a happy soul in heaven, why even need a resurrection? Yet the resurrection is what the bible teaches and that's our hope. We don't go to heaven. Heaven is coming to earth starting with the millennium but continuing on in the perfect state after the Great White Throne Judgement. That all said, the bottom line is we will be wherever the Lord is, so I'm not saying we won't have access to heaven and indeed, I believe all of space later on. What God has planned for mankind boggles the mind beyond your wildest expectations.
 

Mantis

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Before using hyperbole, it is good to consider context in Scripture passages: to whom do passages relating to the Lord's coming and future events refer: Israel? the church?

If one distinguishes these contexts, then clarity may emerge.

If one is determined not to distinguish these contexts, but to proceed to engage in vehement criticism of those who maybe think differently, then a lack of clarity is likely to be feature of the dialogue (which might even turn out to be a dialogue of the deaf).

I have heard the argument that the church isn't mentioned in revelation after he addresses the seven churches. Is that what you are referring to? Sorry if you were offended, I was not trying to offend anyone.
 

friend of

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I believe God will take his bride of the way so that it will not experience the Wrath of God. Why would God punish His bride? It makes no sense. That's why I'm pretrib
 
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Enoch111

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I was not trying to offend anyone.
Since you asked whether the Pre-Tribulation Rapture was a doctrine of demons, you started out by offending those who hold to this truth. The above is a very strong and offensive accusation from anyone.

Had you simply asked whether it was a biblical doctrine (in good faith) we would have understood that you were looking for clarification, not trying to make false accusations. There are plenty of threads on this forum which go into the Pre-Tribulation Rapture in detail. Why don't you go and study them?

So is it a biblical doctrine? Absolutely. John 14:1-3 should suffice to show that it was none other than our Lord and Savior who informed His apostles (and the Church) that He would personally come to take His Church (His Bride) to Heaven. This is called "the Blessed Hope" of the believer.

"Our Lord spoke that blessed word to His eleven disciples, “I will come again and receive you unto myself, that where I am ye may be also” (John 14:3). It is the only time He mentioned His coming for His own, and in speaking of it He did not tell them of signs to precede that coming, such as wars, false Christs and the great tribulation. It was the simple announcement that He would come again and receive those who are His to Himself. He did not say a word about the manner of that coming and how He would receive His own into glory to be with Him. [Note: He would leave it up to Paul (and other apostles) to expand on this doctrine] Nor did the Thessalonians hear definite teaching on this from the lips of Paul. They knew He would come again; they waited for Him. But as to the manner of His coming and concerning those who had already fallen asleep and their relation to that event they were in ignorance. Beautiful it is to see how graciously the Lord answered the question of these sorrowing ones and how much more He adds for the comfort of all His people."
Gaebelien's Commentary on 1 Thess 4:13-18

But there are plenty of other Scriptures to fully support this doctrine. So why is there so much hatred and animosity for this doctrine? The fundamental reason is that Satan hates to see Christians having and believing any assurances from God. Secondly, those who failed to properly interpret these passages hate the fact that some Christians eventually did. Thirdly those who have mistaken ideas about the Second Coming of Christ do not wish to acknowledge that they were mistaken. Rather they attack the messengers.
 
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Nancy

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I believe God will take his bride of the way so that it will not experience the Wrath of God. Why would God punish His bride? It makes no sense. That's why I'm pretrib
Hello Friend of,
No, we are not subject to the Wrath of God But...we ARE subject to satans persecution of the saints...Look at how the Apostles all died...persecution. Why weren't they whisked away before the horrible things happened to them? Are we any better than them?
 

friend of

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Hello Friend of,
No, we are not subject to the Wrath of God But...we ARE subject to satans persecution of the saints...Look at how the Apostles all died...persecution. Why weren't they whisked away before the horrible things happened to them? Are we any better than them?

I understand that the precedent is that we will have to suffer like all the saints of old, but we are already suffering now. The Apostles weren't whisked away because Christ did not come at that time to end the age of Grace, simply speaking. We should prepare to suffer persecution in this world, but that does not prove that God cannot, at a later time, whisk His people away before the most evil time in history. It makes sense to me, since Jesus took the wrath of God in the believers place, that He will come again to bring us where He is in the heaven lies and avoid us having to suffer through the reign of the AC. It's not a matter of being more worthy than the saints of old, that we might escape this time of evil. Rather it is a matter of God showing mercy upon His bride. You wouldn't leave someone you were betrothed to in the hands of a psychopathic sadist. Neither will God.
 

Randy Kluth

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My son is a professional Christian musician in Nashville and is good friends with Tate and knows Tmac. They were/are my favorite group. They are making a new album and will be touring after the album comes out.

How cool is that! :) I've brushed up against "greatness" too over the years. But I can't say I really *know* anybody great in the Christian music world. Many years ago I contributed, with some friends, to starting a Christian concerts ministry, but I played a very low key role.

My father was a professional musician on the side--quite good on the piano and on the organ, and taught voice. My brother is still a professional musician on the side, playing on weekends and on special occasions. Looks like we appreciate musicians? :)
 
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farouk

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Hello Friend of,
No, we are not subject to the Wrath of God But...we ARE subject to satans persecution of the saints...Look at how the Apostles all died...persecution. Why weren't they whisked away before the horrible things happened to them? Are we any better than them?
We are all subject to the tribulation of John 16.33: 'These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.'

The great tribulation of Matthew 24.21, however, is a unique event on earth, not the general principle of tribulation - however intense:

'For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.'

So we need to distinguish between the church and Israel, between believers within the church before the Lord's coming for it, and tribulation saints.
 
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Mantis

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Since you asked whether the Pre-Tribulation Rapture was a doctrine of demons, you started out by offending those who hold to this truth. The above is a very strong and offensive accusation from anyone.

Had you simply asked whether it was a biblical doctrine (in good faith) we would have understood that you were looking for clarification, not trying to make false accusations. There are plenty of threads on this forum which go into the Pre-Tribulation Rapture in detail. Why don't you go and study them?

So is it a biblical doctrine? Absolutely. John 14:1-3 should suffice to show that it was none other than our Lord and Savior who informed His apostles (and the Church) that He would personally come to take His Church (His Bride) to Heaven. This is called "the Blessed Hope" of the believer.

"Our Lord spoke that blessed word to His eleven disciples, “I will come again and receive you unto myself, that where I am ye may be also” (John 14:3). It is the only time He mentioned His coming for His own, and in speaking of it He did not tell them of signs to precede that coming, such as wars, false Christs and the great tribulation. It was the simple announcement that He would come again and receive those who are His to Himself. He did not say a word about the manner of that coming and how He would receive His own into glory to be with Him. [Note: He would leave it up to Paul (and other apostles) to expand on this doctrine] Nor did the Thessalonians hear definite teaching on this from the lips of Paul. They knew He would come again; they waited for Him. But as to the manner of His coming and concerning those who had already fallen asleep and their relation to that event they were in ignorance. Beautiful it is to see how graciously the Lord answered the question of these sorrowing ones and how much more He adds for the comfort of all His people."
Gaebelien's Commentary on 1 Thess 4:13-18

But there are plenty of other Scriptures to fully support this doctrine. So why is there so much hatred and animosity for this doctrine? The fundamental reason is that Satan hates to see Christians having and believing any assurances from God. Secondly, those who failed to properly interpret these passages hate the fact that some Christians eventually did. Thirdly those who have mistaken ideas about the Second Coming of Christ do not wish to acknowledge that they were mistaken. Rather they attack the messengers.

I'm just trying to gather as much info as possible from members about this to come to a sound conclusion. I have no animosity or hatred for this doctrine or people who hold to it. I am simply questioning it because there are reasons to.

People get offended at anything nowadays. I'm to the point of not caring when people get offended, especially when no offense was meant. I simply asked a question and you took offense. I am not trying to start an argument. Maybe you are wrong, maybe I am wrong. But I could definitely see Satan using a lie to give a false hope to believers. Seems like you are 100% sure that this is sound doctrine, I am not nor am I sure that it is false or true. I have an open mind. I see all the scripture that points to a pre-trib rapture and I see scripture that points to a rapture later. Maybe push your pride aside and look at the counter points.
 
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Billy Evmur

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Whether pre=trib rapture is demonic or not and it's origin is definitely dodgy the devil uses it.

Jesus was post-trib
AFTER the tribulation of those days .... they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory and He will send out His angels to gather His elect from the four winds of heaven.
 

marks

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I am really starting to wonder if the pre-tribulation rapture is a doctrine of demons. It sounds wonderful but in reality I think it is a stretch to conclude that there will be a pre-trib rapture from scripture. Yet it is taught with confidence that it is truth. If it is a false teaching that Timothy warns about, many people will be devastated when they are not raptured before the poop hits the fan. I am not worried as I am sure God will protect us but if I spend my days attending a church that teaches this am I just itching my ears? I want truth, I can handle the truth.
It's not what I'd call a plainly taught doctrine, but personally, as one who holds to a rather literal interpretation of the Bible, I'm of the opinion that it will in fact happen.

There is a dispensational change that is going to occur, that many people overlook. But when Jesus divides the righteous from the wicked when He returns, it's not going to be about who is and isn't born again. It's going to be about how you treat His brothers, the Jews.

And yet we are very plainly taught that where we receive righteousness is by justification, that is given to us through being immersed into Jesus' death and resurrection.

There are numerous "tells", such as the sealing of "the" servants of God, 144,000 of them, all Jews. Where is the Gentile assembly?? Next scene . . . before the throne . . . and before the trumpets are sounded.

"These are they coming out of the great tribulation" Except when you look at John's Greek, he tended to write "ek" when "apo" was appropriate, like, "If I be lifted up . . . " Luke wrote apo, from the earth, but John wrote "ek", out of the earth. When I researched this, I found a whole pageful of examples both ways. He simply tended the switch them. Is this a proof of the pre-trib rapture? It's a reason why maybe we should be reading this passage "these are they coming away from the great tribulation". Which harmonizes wonderfully with places like, "I will keep you out of the hour of testing", only way to keep someone from that period of time is if they aren't there.

There's so much, and such an interesting subject! And I find serious internal conflicts within every other view I've studied. I've been studying this for some decades now.

Much love!
 

Mantis

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It's not what I'd call a plainly taught doctrine, but personally, as one who holds to a rather literal interpretation of the Bible, I'm of the opinion that it will in fact happen.

There is a dispensational change that is going to occur, that many people overlook. But when Jesus divides the righteous from the wicked when He returns, it's not going to be about who is and isn't born again. It's going to be about how you treat His brothers, the Jews.

And yet we are very plainly taught that where we receive righteousness is by justification, that is given to us through being immersed into Jesus' death and resurrection.

There are numerous "tells", such as the sealing of "the" servants of God, 144,000 of them, all Jews. Where is the Gentile assembly?? Next scene . . . before the throne . . . and before the trumpets are sounded.

"These are they coming out of the great tribulation" Except when you look at John's Greek, he tended to write "ek" when "apo" was appropriate, like, "If I be lifted up . . . " Luke wrote apo, from the earth, but John wrote "ek", out of the earth. When I researched this, I found a whole pageful of examples both ways. He simply tended the switch them. Is this a proof of the pre-trib rapture? It's a reason why maybe we should be reading this passage "these are they coming away from the great tribulation". Which harmonizes wonderfully with places like, "I will keep you out of the hour of testing", only way to keep someone from that period of time is if they aren't there.

There's so much, and such an interesting subject! And I find serious internal conflicts within every other view I've studied. I've been studying this for some decades now.

Much love!

Yes he seals the 144 thousand and they are jews. This has made me wonder why he is sealing only jews. But then he speaks of the ones who come out of the great tribulation with their robes washed white. I have been told that tribulation saints who are martyred are those who come to Christ during the tribulation. Or are they the gentiles who will suffer tribulation? This stuff is fascinating.
 
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marks

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I'm not going to call my brothers and sisters "demonic" for believing a lie. But the doctrine is definitely not inspired by God.

Pretrib was *never* taught in all the history of the Church until John Darby came along in the 1800s, reinventing modern Premillennialism. To be truthful, I do believe Premillennialism is correct. I just don't believe Pretrib should ever have been coupled together with Premillennialism.

Although Darby initiated a Protestant version of Prophetic Futurism, Catholic Francisco Ribera had centuries earlier promoted Prophetic Futurism, as well. Ribera had, as his motive, a desire to separate Catholics from the Protestant charge that the Catholic Church was the Antichrist. If Antichrist is a future prophecy, then the Catholics could not, at that time, be the Antichrist.

By contrast, Darby apparently sought to separate out an elite Church from all organized Christianity, including from the Catholic Church. Only a super-spiritual Church would be qualified to escape the coming horrors of a future Tribulation, in which Antichrist kills Christians, and the world suffers consequent punishments from God. The elite Church is thought to be immune from this time, just as in the Early Church Christian Jews were given to escape the 70 AD punishment of Israel by the Romans.

In reality, the book of Revelation does not depict the time of Antichrist's Reign as a time of punishment for the world. Though some suffering always takes place in this world, particularly among the wicked, final punishment is largely reserved for the time of Christ's Return. So there is no thought, biblically, for an escape, by the Church, from the time of Antichrist's Reign. On the contrary, the Church is depicted as faithful and honorable during this time, for holding fast to the faith, even under persecution. This also is how the Early Church viewed persecution, as an honorable thing honored by Jesus.

Surely we should look at it the same way, instead of seeing all Christian suffering as a shameful thing. It will not be honorable to run away from testifying under difficult circumstances. Actually, every day this is how we testify to the truth, by abhorring the ways of the world and trying to live a righteous life. We do not run away from testifying to the truth so as to help people escape from their sins. Rather, we endure some abuse in order to get the message of deliverance from sin across. It is worth it to bring glory to Christ, who also suffered from sinful men.

I'd argue that pre-trib rapture was in fact taught by Paul, and pre-dates all other views.

Looking at pre-trib as a some means to make a certain group elite misses the heart of the Gospel, we are righteous in Christ, and all who are in Christ will be siezed away.

I find that the only way to avoid concluding a pre-trib rapture is to undermine the seriousness of a number of passages, such as, that there will be "locust" things which will swarm out of the pit, giving such serious torment to all except 144,000 Jewish men, such torment lasting 5 months, that people will just want to die, but they won't be able to. This is what God has in store for me, if I survive til then? Not the God I've come to know. Completely unthinkable.

Christian suffering is never to be seen as a shameful thing, I don't think. But we should not place it higher as some goal of ours either. Our Father knows what is exactly right for us, and He loves us so much!!

Tribulation can come into our lives in many ways, at any time, without being "the great tribulation". There's no divine charter that we escape from suffering. And yet there is coming a time when we will see Him, and suffering will end.

Much love!
 

Mantis

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I'd argue that pre-trib rapture was in fact taught by Paul, and pre-dates all other views.

Looking at pre-trib as a some means to make a certain group elite misses the heart of the Gospel, we are righteous in Christ, and all who are in Christ will be siezed away.

I find that the only way to avoid concluding a pre-trib rapture is to undermine the seriousness of a number of passages, such as, that there will be "locust" things which will swarm out of the pit, giving such serious torment to all except 144,000 Jewish men, such torment lasting 5 months, that people will just want to die, but they won't be able to. This is what God has in store for me, if I survive til then? Not the God I've come to know. Completely unthinkable.

Christian suffering is never to be seen as a shameful thing, I don't think. But we should not place it higher as some goal of ours either. Our Father knows what is exactly right for us, and He loves us so much!!

Tribulation can come into our lives in many ways, at any time, without being "the great tribulation". There's no divine charter that we escape from suffering. And yet there is coming a time when we will see Him, and suffering will end.

Much love!
That is a good point about the locust hitting everyone but the 144k. I never even considered that before.
 

marks

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Yes he seals the 144 thousand and they are jews. This has made me wonder why he is sealing only jews. But then he speaks of the ones who come out of the great tribulation with their robes washed white. I have been told that tribulation saints who are martyred are those who come to Christ during the tribulation. Or are they the gentiles who will suffer tribulation? This stuff is fascinating.
Next week, if you are still interested, I'll have much more time to spend on the topic if you like. I too find it fascinating, and edifying if we aren't arguing about it. Which I have no wish to do, and am not threatened by any of the rapture views.

People sometimes use the phrase tribulation saints indescriminately. I think the body of Christ will be removed, 144M Jews sealed, and the 70th week started. 2/3's of the Jews will be killed, 1/3 to survive. I think there will be gentiles also who will be persecuted by the Beast. I think that the two witnesses will be warning the world that Israel is God's Chosen, and those endeavor to help Israel will be killed, and if they survive, will be the sheep entering into the kingdom. They only enter the kingdom then. We are in the kingdom now, in Christ.

Eschatology if truly fascinating!

Much love!
 

mjrhealth

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Hello Friend of,
No, we are not subject to the Wrath of God But...we ARE subject to satans persecution of the saints...Look at how the Apostles all died...persecution. Why weren't they whisked away before the horrible things happened to them? Are we any better than them?
Amen: Noah wasnt "whisked"away He was protected in an Ark, he still suffered the storm.
 
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Mantis

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Next week, if you are still interested, I'll have much more time to spend on the topic if you like. I too find it fascinating, and edifying if we aren't arguing about it. Which I have no wish to do, and am not threatened by any of the rapture views.

People sometimes use the phrase tribulation saints indescriminately. I think the body of Christ will be removed, 144M Jews sealed, and the 70th week started. 2/3's of the Jews will be killed, 1/3 to survive. I think there will be gentiles also who will be persecuted by the Beast. I think that the two witnesses will be warning the world that Israel is God's Chosen, and those endeavor to help Israel will be killed, and if they survive, will be the sheep entering into the kingdom. They only enter the kingdom then. We are in the kingdom now, in Christ.

Eschatology if truly fascinating!

Much love!
Yes I would definitely be interested in more info. I have no desire to argue, just to learn.
 
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