Is pre-tribulation rapture a doctrine of demons?

Mantis said:

That is a good point about the locust hitting everyone but the 144k. I never even considered that before.

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I'm not so sure those locust things will attack everyone but those elect Jews. The Jews are there to minister to the rest of the world at this time meaning that there will be many saved people who come to Christ during this time who will not be tormented

Mantis said:

Yes I would definitely be interested in more info. I have no desire to argue, just to learn.

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Cool!

I'm looking forward to it! I'll be able to be online more consistently after the weekend.

Much love!

friend of said:

I'm not so sure those locust things will attack everyone but those elect Jews. The Jews are there to minister to the rest of the world at this time meaning that there will be many saved people who come to Christ during this time who will not be tormented

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If we go strictly by what is written, that's what it says.

Personally I think the 144,000 will be fulfilling this part:

I think the first part is to the disciples Jesus sent out then. The middle part seems to be the Apostolic era. And this part, Jesus' instructions to the 144,000. Just an idea I have.

Matthew 10
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?

26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.

27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.

30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

41 He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

Much love!

Mantis said:

I am really starting to wonder if the pre-tribulation rapture is a doctrine of demons. It sounds wonderful but in reality I think it is a stretch to conclude that there will be a pre-trib rapture from scripture. Yet it is taught with confidence that it is truth. If it is a false teaching that Timothy warns about, many people will be devastated when they are not raptured before the poop hits the fan. I am not worried as I am sure God will protect us but if I spend my days attending a church that teaches this am I just itching my ears? I want truth, I can handle the truth.

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It does not work for me, I am more of a Mid-Tribber. But I do know that many good Evangelical Churches with great Pastors believe this view. Keep in mind, there are a half dozen views of Revelation and they have their supportive verses and theories. Actually no view is rock solid and so we must consider that it is a postulation, a theory at best. I have heard brilliant teachers and I don't agree with them. Revelation is not easy to understand. I take most of it literally, but some don't and so that leads to a symbolic interpretation that can go anywhere and mean anything. Some avoid the troubling verses that don't work for them or just misinterpret them. I've read the Left Behind Series and used to attend Hal Lindsey's, Chuck Smith's, John MacArthur's church. I respect them as good teachers on most doctrines, just not eschatology. Some are gifted in some areas, like my old Pastor, a great teacher, but then don't necessarily do well with the End Times. My Pastor avoided it all together, he would say, "It will all pan out in the end!"
God gave us a mysterious book that is multi-dimensional, not really chronological and pretty catastrophic. He wanted us to possess a sense of immanency, that for those who read it at any time, may think it was going to happen soon. So to do that, it had to be a conundrum. My point is, it's not demonic to hold any one particular view, we are all hoping for Christ to return, just may have the wrong view. We are all hoping that He comes and fixes the world and puts an end to sin and evil and Satan. Satan does not want us to know that part, He wants us ignorant of the End Time scenario! Nevertheless we all keep plugging at it and it is wonderful that, we get a blessing from reading this book and for me, I have been drawn to it for twenty five years more than any other book in the Bible. Satan does not want us in the Bible at all so certainly He doesn't want us to study this book intensely, figure out the puzzle- how Jesus defeats him in the end! If it was something we could read through a couple times and get, there would be no confusion. There would be a solid doctrine - "This is how it's going to happen!" But then if we knew precisely how and when, there would be no immanency. He didn't give us much about our origins, how or exactly when He did it and not many details. He made light, the stars, the universe, earth, all living things, in six days. He wants us to have faith and He gives us just enough, but remember, faith is about things unseen, a sureness of things hoped for - it's not rocket science. We can all be certain that He is coming and He will fix things.

Billy Evmur said:

Whether pre=trib rapture is demonic or not and it's origin is definitely dodgy the devil uses it.

Jesus was post-trib
AFTER the tribulation of those days .... they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory and He will send out His angels to gather His elect from the four winds of heaven.

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Billy,

Jesus stated:


Does that refer to the rapture of 1 Thess 4:16-17 (NIV)?

Oz

marks said:

I'd argue that pre-trib rapture was in fact taught by Paul, and pre-dates all other views.

Looking at pre-trib as a some means to make a certain group elite misses the heart of the Gospel, we are righteous in Christ, and all who are in Christ will be siezed away.

I find that the only way to avoid concluding a pre-trib rapture is to undermine the seriousness of a number of passages, such as, that there will be "locust" things which will swarm out of the pit, giving such serious torment to all except 144,000 Jewish men, such torment lasting 5 months, that people will just want to die, but they won't be able to. This is what God has in store for me, if I survive til then? Not the God I've come to know. Completely unthinkable.

Christian suffering is never to be seen as a shameful thing, I don't think. But we should not place it higher as some goal of ours either. Our Father knows what is exactly right for us, and He loves us so much!!

Tribulation can come into our lives in many ways, at any time, without being "the great tribulation". There's no divine charter that we escape from suffering. And yet there is coming a time when we will see Him, and suffering will end.

Much love!

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Marks, you are an "alright guy," and I don't mean to aim any negative slant at you personally. My only wish is to put the Scriptures 1st, above personal associations. God 1st, and then friends.

If Paul taught Pretrib, why wasn't it taught until around the 1830s in the Church? It never was. Some faithful Pretribbers search long and hard to find a few kernels of *possible* Pretrib teachings in the Early Church, and I admit, a few statements come close. But this is hardly a theology or a movement--you just don't find the explicit theology taught anywhere in history, which makes it impossible, in my mind, for Paul to have taught it. If it was there in the Scriptures, Christian teachers would've taught it.

Usually, Pretribbers conflate Pretrib teaching with Imminency teaching to claim that if Imminency was taught in the history of the Church, that means Pretribism was taught, as well. But they are not the same thing--Pretribism was never taught--certainly not by Paul.

If you have to find an obscure, hard to interpret passage from the book of Revelation to try to prove Pretrib teaching, you're definitely "reaching." The Holy Spirit doesn't make doctrine hard to understand. He speaks in riddles only to those who do not wish to know the truth, who do not deserve to know the truth. He tells the ungodly parables, to expose their duplicity.

But true doctrine that God *wants* us to know and believe He speaks in the most explicit terms. And Pretrib is anything but explicit. I've discussed this and read this for many years. And a good number of Pretribbers admit that their doctrine is a "mystery," and not explicitly taught. It must be received by "revelation," they say, just as Paul received it by a "mystery." How dangerous! Just open the door for demons to come in and lie, if solid doctrine is not there to guide us, and all we have is "openness" to spiritual revelation!

But you're a good guy, I think, and won't let this divide us anymore than it divides me in my present Pretrib church!

Mantis said:

I think those versus are for non believers. Why would God send a delusion to those who believe?

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But looked at another way, why would you need to send strong delusion to those who are already totally deluded? The church today is a mixture of wheat and tares, sheep and goats, and the delusion will cause a split between them. How strong will the delusion be? Those blinded to the call of the Spirit will actually think they are doing God a service by having the true elect killed.

blessings,

Gids

Gideons300 said:

But looked at another way, why would you need to send strong delusion to those who are already totally deluded? The church today is a mixture of wheat and tares, sheep and goats, and the delusion will cause a split between them. How strong will the delusion be? Those blinded to the call of the Spirit will actually think they are doing God a service by having the true elect killed.

blessings,

Gids

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YES THEY WILL THINK EXACTLY THAT . YOU GOT THAT SPOT ON RIGHT .
Truth is they are already going right under sie all inclusive lie that will lead them right to Sie one who will make such an order .
The religoins will unite under a false love , an all inclusive love , a false unity as many already are .
But more so this is also leading to a scape goat for all the worlds ills . ANY GUESSES on who that scape goat is gonna be .
US , THE TRUE LAMBS WHO CONFORMED NOT . And it CANT be stopped Gideon . WE gonna have to endure all out persecutoins
and much sooner than folks realize . They uniting fast under this false love stuff . And already
i seen signs of where its leading . WOULD you like to know
what i get hammered on by folks at most sites . WHEN I SAY , YE MUST beleive IN JESUS to be saved . YE must confess HIM .
Would you like to know who my most ardent adversaries are , THEY CALL THEMSELVES christains . ITS getting bad gideon
and its gonna get worse and fast .

And as far as i am concerned they can flap their lips all day with this all inclusive lie and unity stuff .
But i wont be hearing it . And by grace let not a single lamb run in fear from this .
Stand up and procliam truth , and do so more and more . Having no fear of loss , no fear to suffer and no fear of death .
man can only kill the body . HOPE THOU IN GOD and SEE the true reward that cometh at the end of our faith .
HOPE IN GOD . And fear not man . COUNT the cost and be prepared to know and understand , that IN THIS WORLD
YE GONNA HAVE TRIBULATION . BUT be of good cheer , JESUS OVERCAME IT . It wont matter what they do to us
WE GOT JESUS . TO LIVE IS CHRIST , TO DIE IS ONLY GAIN . NOW FORWARD MARCH ONE and ALL INTO THOSE TRENCHES .
Souls must hear the glorious gospel and many who claim His name must be corrected and lambs must be built up in sound bible doctrine .

Mantis said:

I'm just trying to gather as much info as possible from members about this to come to a sound conclusion. I have no animosity or hatred for this doctrine or people who hold to it. I am simply questioning it because there are reasons to.

People get offended at anything nowadays. I'm to the point of not caring when people get offended, especially when no offense was meant. I simply asked a question and you took offense. I am not trying to start an argument. Maybe you are wrong, maybe I am wrong. But I could definitely see Satan using a lie to give a false hope to believers. Seems like you are 100% sure that this is sound doctrine, I am not nor am I sure that it is false or true. I have an open mind. I see all the scripture that points to a pre-trib rapture and I see scripture that points to a rapture later. Maybe push your pride aside and look at the counter points.

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"I am simply questioning it because there are reasons to."

And, right you should question anything that raises red flags, or just doesn't sound right to you. Some folks can be habitually touchy on here. As I'm sure you know...notice I said "habitually" lol. (You had me on a VERY rare day )
Your post was polite and to the point and not a smidgen of nastiness towards those who believe in a pre trib.

friend of said:

I'm not so sure those locust things will attack everyone but those elect Jews. The Jews are there to minister to the rest of the world at this time meaning that there will be many saved people who come to Christ during this time who will not be tormented

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The Jews ? what !the morons who reject Christ Jesus ? are going to be ministering to the world as the Elect. That's totally Satanic !
An Anti-Christ mob for a start are a curse to God in fact. it is such as all who are a torment.

By Jews what do you truly mean.

Fact is that all will be tormented because we reap what has been sown. if one sows of the Anti-Christ you will reap there of regardless.
See all the fools about your town, one is some what in the sewer with them are we not, the stench of their works we smell and have to deal with such all around us. no one can say that such does not splatter back on us some what at times.

If one is truly born again of the Holy Spirit then your Soul will be safe, it does not mean that your body will be killed or may starved to death. we are called not to worry about our flesh in that regard but to make sure that they do not work to try and destroy ones Soul.

When one has a child ones hope is that they become truly born again in the Holy Spirit, so their Soul is saved regardless of the body first of all, that way we know they are saved and not of a curse.

The cursed it is said would of been better if they had never been born, better they have a millstone around their neck and tossed into the sea. is an expression used as to such one. because such is an abomination to God, a curse and a curse to all, it's like a cancer on all. one must keep clear of all such as they or they will only drag one into the sewer with them. they love the sewer because they were as Jesus said of their farther of lies and were murders from the beginning.

It torments me to see that society is fine with abortion on demand of one healthy 9 month old, for one I can not believe it's true, that we have sunk that low as a society. that is the lowest of the low, if one can treat such like that their is nothing such a one will not stupe too I am sure.

mjrhealth said:

Amen: Noah wasnt "whisked"away He was protected in an Ark, he still suffered the storm.

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Yeah MJ...and can you just imagine the odors on that thing, not to mention, they were all pretty close in quarters I'd imagine...AND they, being on the Ark for a good year!
Yeah, they definitely had it pretty bad!
And, look at all the Prophets and how they were stoned, and sometimes killed, and look at Samson, losing his strength and the Philistines gouging out his eyes, yet he still demolished the false god's temple...other examples too.

friend of said:

I understand that the precedent is that we will have to suffer like all the saints of old, but we are already suffering now. The Apostles weren't whisked away because Christ did not come at that time to end the age of Grace, simply speaking. We should prepare to suffer persecution in this world, but that does not prove that God cannot, at a later time, whisk His people away before the most evil time in history. It makes sense to me, since Jesus took the wrath of God in the believers place, that He will come again to bring us where He is in the heaven lies and avoid us having to suffer through the reign of the AC. It's not a matter of being more worthy than the saints of old, that we might escape this time of evil. Rather it is a matter of God showing mercy upon His bride. You wouldn't leave someone you were betrothed to in the hands of a psychopathic sadist. Neither will God.

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That is fine, we can believe either way, but would it not be wise to be prepared in our faith no matter? I don't see this as a salvific issue so, you will get no argument from me...have had my back and forth's on this subject too many times to count. So, I will leave you with your belief and Gods blessings brother.

Nancy said:

Yeah MJ...and can you just imagine the odors on that thing, not to mention, they were all pretty close in quarters I'd imagine...AND they, being on the Ark for a good year!
Yeah, they definitely had it pretty bad!
And, look at all the Prophets and how they were stoned, and sometimes killed, and look at Samson, losing his strength and the Philistines gouging out his eyes, yet he still demolished the false god's temple...other examples too.

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Yes every one wants to escape, im beginning to understand why Jesus said, "When I return will I find faith upon the earth".

What ever happened to faith in Christ.

God bless

Mantis said:

I am really starting to wonder if the pre-tribulation rapture is a doctrine of demons. It sounds wonderful but in reality I think it is a stretch to conclude that there will be a pre-trib rapture from scripture. Yet it is taught with confidence that it is truth. If it is a false teaching that Timothy warns about, many people will be devastated when they are not raptured before the poop hits the fan. I am not worried as I am sure God will protect us but if I spend my days attending a church that teaches this am I just itching my ears? I want truth, I can handle the truth.

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Imagine being raised in a Church that doesn't teach anything about the endtimes at all, as if our Lord's Book of Revelation were already past history, excepting His return. That's the kind of Church I was raised in; their organizational system followed the seminary doctrine of Preterism. I didn't know what they were following until I got down to Bible study for myself and also learned about various seminary doctrines of men among the Churches.

The Preterist system of men is just as bad as the Pre-trib Rapture system of men, neither one will prepare the believer for certain events at the end of this world just prior to our Lord Jesus' return.

The Signs that Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 are what He gave us to be watching for the end, so as to not be deceived. Those Signs are further detailed in His Revelation, especially Rev.6 with the Seals.

The main deception that is coming is that of a pseudo-Christ that comes first, working great signs and miracles to deceive the whole world into believing he is God. He will do that in Jerusalem, setup in a new temple there. This was Apostle Paul's main warning in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9 prior to Christ's return to gather us.

The Pre-trib Rapture theory is designed for those deceived folks to flee to that pseudo-Christ who comes first working supernatural miracles. The Preterist system will welcome that pseudo-Christ also, because they are fooled into thinking that Christ's return will involve this present flesh world, and that He will simply complete the present globalist one-world system being setup in this present world.

OzSpen said:

Billy,

Jesus stated:

‘Immediately after the distress of those days
‘“the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.”

30 ‘Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other" (Matt 24:29-31 NIV).​

Does that refer to the rapture of 1 Thess 4:16-17 (NIV)?

Oz

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What it shows is that the Great tribulation and the wrath of God are two things quite different. The tribulation comes from men, specifically the Anti freeze ..ah er pardon I mean Antichrist ... The Great trib is the great end times persecution we are warned to expect. The stars falling etc shows that this new development comes from God. We are saved from the wrath of God but in the world we shall have tribulation.

There can surely be no question that Matt 24. 29-31 is the same event as 2 Thess. 2. There are not multiple comings in the clouds with great power and glory, trumpets and angels, gathering of the elect.

rockytopva said:

The fact we don’t know makes this event pre-trib.

Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. - Luke 12:40

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Amen, we are also warned to pray and watch for the test will which will come upon the whole earth like a snare. We are warned to expect tribulation and persecution.

Nancy said:

Yeah MJ...and can you just imagine the odors on that thing, not to mention, they were all pretty close in quarters I'd imagine...AND they, being on the Ark for a good year!
Yeah, they definitely had it pretty bad!
And, look at all the Prophets and how they were stoned, and sometimes killed, and look at Samson, losing his strength and the Philistines gouging out his eyes, yet he still demolished the false god's temple...other examples too.

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Noah also experience persecution during the building of the ark and this tribulation must have intensified toward the end.

Paul gives the order of events

Ist comes the great rebellion
then the man of rebellion is revealed
then he sets himself against everything god and all objects of worship
then he makes his claim that he is himself God
then the Lord descends from heaven with a shout and destroys him.

When the man of sin sets himself against everything called god this denotes an attempt to stamp out all religion, it is the great end-time persecution or the great tribulation.