If You Are Not Exposed To Christianity, Are You Damned?

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

mcorba

Member
Aug 7, 2010
135
9
18
52
England
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
I find it hard to imagine that the God we are discussing who has unconditional love is likely to damn people who have their own belief in a God but who do not come into contact with Christian beliefs throughout the world - please discuss.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Miss Hepburn

Selene

New Member
Apr 12, 2010
2,073
94
0
In my house
I find it hard to imagine that the God we are discussing who has unconditional love is likely to damn people who have their own belief in a God but who do not come into contact with Christian beliefs throughout the world - please discuss.

Hello Mcorba,

Christianity did not exist until after Christ died and rose from the dead. Christianity did not exist before that; yet, those who died before Christianity existed will be judged justly by God.

In Christ,
Selene
 

pastorlesofm

Community Guide
Jun 28, 2008
326
17
0
79
Central New York State
I find it hard to imagine that the God we are discussing who has unconditional love is likely to damn people who have their own belief in a God but who do not come into contact with Christian beliefs throughout the world - please discuss.


It is sad that many believe in God their own way will get them to Heaven. That is the reason for different faiths, denominations, and religions. These do not justify any reason for the Lord to allow into Heaven. God never opened up a cafeteria to allow picking and choosing how one can get there the way they want to. Jesus makes it very clear in John 3:1-18 and John 14:6-7. In the Old Testament we see saints (prophets) who were taken up to Heaven. Jesus in the New Testament stood with Moses and Elijah on Mount Transfigureration, Matthew 171-3, also in the parable of the richman and the beggar. Jesus spoke of Abraham and the richman speaking to Abraham.As far as Christians in the Old Testament, we know that prophecy of the coming Messiah was foetold in by many of the Old Testament Prophets, all the way back to Genesis when Adam and Eve fell. I dare say that alot of what God asked of those in the Old Testament, Christians after the Death and Ressurrection would have done, even today's Christians. Look at Abraham, called of God to sacrifice his son Isaac, or Noah building an ark in the middle of dry land, but they were willing , with little question if any. John the Baptist knew Jesus and proclaimed the Mission of Jesus Christ. This was before the Cross or Grave. When Jesus in John Chapter 3 tells Nicodemus three times what he must do to get saved "Ye must be Born Again", that is pretty clear and deffinate to me and I pray to all. Many times I feel many in the Church are looking for a "If it makes me feel good way to God". News: it is not going to happen.
 

fivesense

New Member
Mar 7, 2010
636
24
0
WI
I find it hard to imagine that the God we are discussing who has unconditional love is likely to damn people who have their own belief in a God but who do not come into contact with Christian beliefs throughout the world - please discuss.


You are quite right in your mind, sane I would say. The mind that entertains such thoughts as contained in the "Endless Torment" heresy reveals the darkness which is resident within. To the natural mind, it is not possible for a god to be worse than a Hitler or a Mao Tse Tung. To the enlightened and spiritual man, the Scriptures do not make such claims as "burning in hell forever", and he may rest in that. You are fortunate to not be tainted with such foolishness and free to serve God from a pure heart.

fivesense
 
  • Like
Reactions: Miss Hepburn

Miss Hepburn

Well-Known Member
Oct 28, 2009
1,674
1,333
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I find it hard to imagine that the God we are discussing who has unconditional love is likely to damn people who have their own belief in a God but who do not come into contact with Christian beliefs throughout the world - please discuss.
Nothing to discuss - you have a good head on your shoulders.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Miss Hepburn

evanom

New Member
May 8, 2010
96
3
0
50
Bogota Colombia
the Scriptures do not make such claims as "burning in hell forever",
fivesense


What "scriptures" are you talking about? Certainly not the Bible.

Mt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


Mt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.



Lk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Lk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.



Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


etc....etc.....etc.....


 

Martin W.

Active Member
Jan 16, 2009
817
37
28
70
Winnipeg Canada
I find it hard to imagine that the God we are discussing who has unconditional love is likely to damn people who have their own belief in a God but who do not come into contact with Christian beliefs throughout the world - please discuss.

We North American's have done a fairly good job of embracing Christianity or at least preaching it in this part of the world. Often we feel It is our duty to take the gospel to other countries such as Africa so they also can hear the bible message. We would feel it unfair if God did not give them the opportunity to hear the gospel.

But we forget that the Gospel started out on that continent two thousand years ago and was mostly rejected.

Just something to consider.

Then we must consider religions like Islam, they read the bible also , they know about Jesus but they do not accept he is The Son of God. They relegate him to a prophet who has been superseded by (another prophet) Mohamed.

Christians are a minority. The bible tells us to expect low numbers. God knows who will be his and gets the message to them. That is about all we are told for now.

I would be very cautious claiming God has unconditional love for those who reject him and his Son. Unconditional love has no value if it not received and accepted. Many will reject it.

Best regards
Martin
 

fivesense

New Member
Mar 7, 2010
636
24
0
WI
What "scriptures" are you talking about? Certainly not the Bible.

Mt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
Lk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Lk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


I appreciate your effort to supply the evidences above. You are being faithful to God to stand up in proclaiming truth as you understand it. I applaud you for this.

While Jesus Christ was on earth, He was commissioned by His God and Father to minister to the lost sheep of the House of Israel only (Mt 15:24). His entire purpose for coming was to establish the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, ruling as the Son of David, heir to the throne.

Ro 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises [made] unto the fathers:

Everything He spoke, every act He performed was for their benefit and to the end of bringing Israel into the promises of God through the Prophets. When they killed Him, and rejected His disciples and apostles, the Cross and the blood were opened up to us by reason of their defection. Paul was the minister of the secrets that had been withheld from all, but revealed to Him by the Glorified Christ out of heaven.

Your quotations apply to a people that we are not. The word "forever" is a mistranslation of the Greek word aionion, and that is difficult to overcome, I know. But everlasting and forever are not Greek concepts, there is no word for them in the Greek language. They were added to support theology and orthodoxy. Only an honest and humble heart seeking the mind of God can be set free from this falsehood. If you cannot be released, then you have my understanding and compassion.

fivesense

We North American's have done a fairly good job of embracing Christianity or at least preaching it in this part of the world. Often we feel It is our duty to take the gospel to other countries such as Africa so they also can hear the bible message. We would feel it unfair if God did not give them the opportunity to hear the gospel.
But we forget that the Gospel started out on that continent two thousand years ago and was mostly rejected.
I would be very cautious claiming God has unconditional love for those who reject him and his Son. Unconditional love has no value if it not received and accepted. Many will reject it.
Best regards
Martin

Thank you Martin for bringing that to mind, about the originating point of the gospel. I must ask, though, if God does not have "unconditional love" a man-made phrase to be sure, then are we to suppose He has conditional hate? Does not the chastening of the Lord lead to remedy whenever He administers it? Is it a willy-nilly affair to Him, based upon His "feelings", which is the hotbed of hate proceeding from the heart? Is not hatred condemned for our usage, and we are to presume God can be hateful at His own whim? There is something awfully unstable in the thought of a God who does not love unconditionally...
 

Martin W.

Active Member
Jan 16, 2009
817
37
28
70
Winnipeg Canada
Thank you Martin for bringing that to mind, about the originating point of the gospel. I must ask, though, if God does not have "unconditional love" a man-made phrase to be sure, then are we to suppose He has conditional hate? Does not the chastening of the Lord lead to remedy whenever He administers it? Is it a willy-nilly affair to Him, based upon His "feelings", which is the hotbed of hate proceeding from the heart? Is not hatred condemned for our usage, and we are to presume God can be hateful at His own whim? There is something awfully unstable in the thought of a God who does not love unconditionally...

Hi fivesense

If I was to rewrite my earlier comment I think it would be more like this:

God is a God of unconditional love toward any and all people who come to him for forgiveness and salvation. His greatest expression of that love can be seen in the sacrifice of his only Son.

Anyone who rejects this opportunity to partake in God's unconditional love will not receive it.

We must admit that our "loving God" has some rather nasty plans for Satan and those who follow him.

Martin
 

fivesense

New Member
Mar 7, 2010
636
24
0
WI
Hi fivesense

If I was to rewrite my earlier comment I think it would be more like this:

God is a God of unconditional love toward any and all people who come to him for forgiveness and salvation. His greatest expression of that love can be seen in the sacrifice of his only Son.

Anyone who rejects this opportunity to partake in God's unconditional love will not receive it.

We must admit that our "loving God" has some rather nasty plans for Satan and those who follow him.

Martin

I agree with you Martin about the nasty plans, and the mess that will end up there. Maybe what is being transposed unintentionally is the matter of grace instead of unconditional love.
If that be the case, then I must concur that the grace which leads to faith in Christ without the Law or works will end. It is conditional based upon the completion of the Body of Christ for service, and the end of the calling out.
When the Body is "snatched" away into clouds, the trouble begins with judgments and vials and all sorts of "nasties". But the remedial work of God, and the reconciliation of all things will obtain in the ages to come. It will be without grace, and in law and ordinances, with powerful deeds, exceeding that of the Lord when He was on earth.
The steadfast love of the Lord never ceases. Or, does it?
fivesense
 

mjrhealth

Well-Known Member
Mar 15, 2009
11,810
4,090
113
Australia
Faith
Christian
Country
Australia
One must be carefull when putting God on the spot regarding Judgement, God is not like us, His thoughts are not our thoughts, His ways are not Like ours, lets leave Judgement to Him.

Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged

If judment shall fall on the unrightous, then there shall surely be a large que of christains on that path to damnation. God saves whom He will, for He is God, who are we to declare who is worth saving and who is not, We are all children of God, the believer and unbeliver alike. And what good father would damn His children to eternal punishment, So we shall wait and see, the final outcome of all this. Too many people thinking of judgement and sin instead of Loving Jesus and asking to know His heart and His will, if they all did, surely only good could com out of it.

In His Love
 

mcorba

Member
Aug 7, 2010
135
9
18
52
England
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
regarding all the comments above -

I met a lovely guy yesterday who is a Muslim, and he is very devout in serving God - when we talked, it sounded to me like the same God, on the basis that the Koran has many details referring to Old Testament and the same key individuals, yet in my mind was the idea that we Christians believe that the only way to God is through Christ -

whilst they have high respect for Christ as an important prophet, as was mentioned early they do not accept him as the Son of God -
so my problem, whilst talking to him, was, is he damned for believing what he believes so strongly, if we appear to worship the same God?

Thanks for your comments earlier, they were very valuable.
:)
Mike
 

fivesense

New Member
Mar 7, 2010
636
24
0
WI
One must be carefull when putting God on the spot regarding Judgement, God is not like us, His thoughts are not our thoughts, His ways are not Like ours, lets leave Judgement to Him.
If judment shall fall on the unrightous, then there shall surely be a large que of christains on that path to damnation. God saves whom He will, for He is God, who are we to declare who is worth saving and who is not, We are all children of God, the believer and unbeliver alike. And what good father would damn His children to eternal punishment, So we shall wait and see, the final outcome of all this. Too many people thinking of judgement and sin instead of Loving Jesus and asking to know His heart and His will, if they all did, surely only good could com out of it.

In His Love

I heed your counsel,mjr. Being forgiven of a great debt, and then, turning around and beating the other guy for what he owes me, is kind of a betrayal against the Forgiver. Much appreciate this caution.
fivesense
 

fivesense

New Member
Mar 7, 2010
636
24
0
WI
regarding all the comments above -
I met a lovely guy yesterday who is a Muslim, and he is very devout in serving God - when we talked, it sounded to me like the same God, on the basis that the Koran has many details referring to Old Testament and the same key individuals, yet in my mind was the idea that we Christians believe that the only way to God is through Christ -
whilst they have high respect for Christ as an important prophet, as was mentioned early they do not accept him as the Son of God -
so my problem, whilst talking to him, was, is he damned for believing what he believes so strongly, if we appear to worship the same God?
Thanks for your comments earlier, they were very valuable.

Mike

This Christ of God, Whose presence and activity on earth cannot be contested, is the Head of a new race. They are the sons of God in spirit, and have no concern or participation in shoring up earthly affairs once they come into true sonship. It is the expectation of all who believe in the crucifixion, entombment, and resurrection of Jesus Christ to escape death and become as He is, a spirit being, subjected and obedient to the Father of spirits. All true blessings come out of that relationship to God through Jesus Christ.

He has earned His place as Lord. He became obedient unto death, not doing His own will, but that of the Father. All creation must do the same, act out of response to the Fathers will. For us, it is as individuals with conscious willingness to do so. Without the Holy Spirit imposing itself upon the heart and mind, history proves that this cannot be performed by human being without God's impartation of grace. There is only One Who can provide this to us, the Crucified and empowered Jesus Christ. No other man can do this, for the cost of obtaining that ability, to impart supernatural life to others, has given to Him who discarded all His glory in heaven to suffer humiliation and death as a ransom for all.

He owns it all. Every man, woman and child, everything that moves and lives and breathes belongs to Him. It was given to Him for His obedience to God. The entire universe is His, and He is in the process of setting all things aright, and reconciling all of it to present it to His Father. This is what God is doing in everyones' lives, whether they are aware of it, or not. It is the ultimate goal of the Father to become All in all.

1C 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

There is no other method, religion, or way to accomplish this goal than by what God has established. His Son will save all men, specially them which believe, no matter how long it takes, and with all justice and equity. Those who do not believe on the work of the Son will die a second time, a horrible thing to occur, in the lake of fire-the second death. Being raised out of death to face the Holy One Who only desired your redemption, and finally realizing this at the Great White Throne, will be a travail of sorrow never felt before, a sadness and despair of immeasurable degree. Then, having recognized and realizing the truth, that this One only loved you with a boundless love, being sentenced to die again will seem even to yourself just and right. But the end is not there, and this you will realize. Your being cut off from the ages to come, wherein Christ and God dwell with humanity, with blessings unending and super exceeding, will cause suffering to the soul that I would not wish on anyone, yet this will be your lot-death and separation til the consummation of God wherein He becomes All in all. You will be restored then, but will have lost out on the greatest and grandest display of the love of God for man that He has planned for those who love Him.

Not all are vessels of God for His glory and honor. Many have been allotted their portion in the second death for His purposes. But He is just and loving, and will make all things right at some point in His plan for us. Even the Muslim, or the Hindu, or any other deception. All is out of God, to God, and for God. He will lose nothing that is out of Himself, or He is not God.

fivesense
 

pastorlesofm

Community Guide
Jun 28, 2008
326
17
0
79
Central New York State
What "scriptures" are you talking about? Certainly not the Bible.

Mt 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.


Mt 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.



Lk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Lk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.



Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


etc....etc.....etc.....



Great Job, good thoughts.

This Christ of God, Whose presence and activity on earth cannot be contested, is the Head of a new race. They are the sons of God in spirit, and have no concern or participation in shoring up earthly affairs once they come into true sonship. It is the expectation of all who believe in the crucifixion, entombment, and resurrection of Jesus Christ to escape death and become as He is, a spirit being, subjected and obedient to the Father of spirits. All true blessings come out of that relationship to God through Jesus Christ.

He has earned His place as Lord. He became obedient unto death, not doing His own will, but that of the Father. All creation must do the same, act out of response to the Fathers will. For us, it is as individuals with conscious willingness to do so. Without the Holy Spirit imposing itself upon the heart and mind, history proves that this cannot be performed by human being without God's impartation of grace. There is only One Who can provide this to us, the Crucified and empowered Jesus Christ. No other man can do this, for the cost of obtaining that ability, to impart supernatural life to others, has given to Him who discarded all His glory in heaven to suffer humiliation and death as a ransom for all.

He owns it all. Every man, woman and child, everything that moves and lives and breathes belongs to Him. It was given to Him for His obedience to God. The entire universe is His, and He is in the process of setting all things aright, and reconciling all of it to present it to His Father. This is what God is doing in everyones' lives, whether they are aware of it, or not. It is the ultimate goal of the Father to become All in all.

1C 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

There is no other method, religion, or way to accomplish this goal than by what God has established. His Son will save all men, specially them which believe, no matter how long it takes, and with all justice and equity. Those who do not believe on the work of the Son will die a second time, a horrible thing to occur, in the lake of fire-the second death. Being raised out of death to face the Holy One Who only desired your redemption, and finally realizing this at the Great White Throne, will be a travail of sorrow never felt before, a sadness and despair of immeasurable degree. Then, having recognized and realizing the truth, that this One only loved you with a boundless love, being sentenced to die again will seem even to yourself just and right. But the end is not there, and this you will realize. Your being cut off from the ages to come, wherein Christ and God dwell with humanity, with blessings unending and super exceeding, will cause suffering to the soul that I would not wish on anyone, yet this will be your lot-death and separation til the consummation of God wherein He becomes All in all. You will be restored then, but will have lost out on the greatest and grandest display of the love of God for man that He has planned for those who love Him.

Not all are vessels of God for His glory and honor. Many have been allotted their portion in the second death for His purposes. But He is just and loving, and will make all things right at some point in His plan for us. Even the Muslim, or the Hindu, or any other deception. All is out of God, to God, and for God. He will lose nothing that is out of Himself, or He is not God.

fivesense


I fully agree, Amen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: truthquest

RichardBurger

New Member
Jan 23, 2008
1,498
19
0
90
Southeast USA
Jesus prayed to His Father (our Father) in heaven that He would not lose any that His Father gave to Him. That does not mean His Father gave all men to Him. If you believe in the book of Revelations you only have to read the first 3 chapters to understand that God does, in fact, hate. Although some believe that all men that ever lived will, in the end, be saved I am certainly not one of them. To believe it is, is to say that having faith, trust, confidence and hope in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross is not needed because in the end Jesus will save you anyway.

Who is man that he can judge God? If God has reserved a lake of fire for the un-godly who is man to say He shouldn't?
 

fivesense

New Member
Mar 7, 2010
636
24
0
WI
Jesus prayed to His Father (our Father) in heaven that He would not lose any that His Father gave to Him. That does not mean His Father gave all men to Him. If you believe in the book of Revelations you only have to read the first 3 chapters to understand that God does, in fact, hate. Although some believe that all men that ever lived will, in the end, be saved I am certainly not one of them. To believe it is, is to say that having faith, trust, confidence and hope in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross is not needed because in the end Jesus will save you anyway.

Who is man that he can judge God? If God has reserved a lake of fire for the un-godly who is man to say He shouldn't?

I respect you highly Richard. You are not a common man, and your spirit is well apportioned in God. You lend gravity and balance in eveything you say.

The faith, trust confidence and hope in the shed blood of Jesus avails much for the elect of God. It ushers them into age-lasting immortality beyond the resurrection out from among the dead ones. But the work and plan of God does not consist merely of a few chosen ones, it goes on to include all, each in his own era. This could not occur had not the sacrifice on the Cross taken place and changed the eons. All men will come into a realization of the power of the Cross, especially will it be felt and understood at the Great White Throne condemnation in His presence, when it will be too late to repent or believe. The loss will be great for those who have come to the recognition of the Son as Savior, as we have through election and grace. I have never said that anyone will escape judgment outside of Christ. That is an assumption made by you from lack of knowledge of the word of God, but not by anything I have said. The second death is real death, instant and merciful, and it is still death, just like the first one, a cessation of conscious life and consignment to oblivion til the Consummation of all things.

1C 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

To disregard or despise this statement of absolute truth concerning the goal of God is a large mistake. It is clear, the wording is not vague, and it takes us to the end of the ages. It is prophetic and will come to pass. It includes ALL things that have ever proceeded out of God for His glory and acclaim.

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.

To believe it is to take God at His word, whether we can harmonize it with our ignorance or not. God is God, and the failure of men to acknowledge Him as such is what is bringing upon them the indignation and wrath to come.

fivesense