One taken to heaven and the other left to face the Tribulation...

Truther said:

That's why I slowed it down to verse by verse.

Click to expand...

You're not getting it. You're *not* responding to the issues that divide us. You're not expressing any understanding of our differences in these matters. So you're just stating what you believe, and completely ignoring my views. You're not addressing them at all, except by stating what you believe. You're not disproving what I'm saying--just saying what you believe.

Truther said:

The "Great Tribulation" began in 70 AD and *continues* throughout the NT age.


Now the verses....


21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.


Are you saying the "2000 year days" will be shortened?

Please elaborate.

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I already anticipated this argument, and expressly explained it already. Why would you need me to elaborate again?

I said:
By being "cut short" the expression did not mean to say that the history itself would be short, but that the tragedy would be "cut short" before Israel is completely exterminated. The term's insinuation is that in time there would be an extreme danger of complete extermination of the Jewish People. This attempt at genocide of the Jewish People will be "cut short," before it achieves its objective.

This is not "cutting short" a short traumatic episode that Israel went through in the Early Church. Rather, it is, as I said, the "cutting short" of a long history that begins to threaten a Jewish genocide.

We've already seen a number of efforts at exterminating Jews. This is the character of the present age, a divine punishment of the Jews--yet not an extermination of them.

It is the ungodly world that wishes to exterminate them, and God will cut short the long history of this effort, particularly when things get very dangerous towards the end of the age. That's now.

Did not Paul and Christ say His return was after the tribulation ?

Let's do Christ first ,

Mark 13:1 "And as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples saith unto Him, "Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!"

Mark 13:2 "And Jesus answering said unto him, "Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

This has not happened to this date. Many today think that this was the time of Titus' destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., However, that mischief doesn't even compare to the destruction and the tribulation that God describes that would take place at Jesus Christ's return, at the end of this earth age when these stones are cast down and turned to powder. Why is this? Because Jerusalem is going to be turned to sand when Jesus returns at the sounding of the seventh trump. Those huge stones will be nothing but tiny grains of sand. Jerusalem is going to be flattened and cleansed to the point whereby the Millennium temple can be build.

Mark 13:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked Him privately,"

Mark 13:4 "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?"

This marks the subject for the entire chapter. Now Jesus is going to tell us the seven seals what will take place before His second advent. These seven seals are the equivalent of the seven trumpets, and the seven plagues. The seals are not in order, however the seven trumpet of Revelation mark the order that the events will come to pass. The "sound of the trumpet" is the sound that executes the order of the event that shall take place. It is God's order of the happenings at the end of this earth age of the flesh. The seals are not in order, but are given in such a way that the deceiver himself is put in the foreground, to where we can understand completely through the seals. It is the deceiver himself that causes the confusion that take place. Jesus is now going to tell us the events that take place when the end will come.

Mark 13:13 "And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

When?

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

This is the seventh and the last trumpet, and there will be no coming by Christ until that time, except the Spirit of God working within you. This is the time that the angels of God will go to every corner of the earth, and even to the heavens to gather the elect of God.

There is no rapture in God's Word of Matthew, nor anywhere else

Now let's hear from Paul

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Paul will now tell us when we gather to Christ.....

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

What Day shall not come?

Jesus Christ is not gathering anyone to Him, nor is He coming here to earth, except there be a falling away first. The word for "falling away", in the Greek is "apostasy". Jesus told us in His revelation to John, in Revelation 9:11, that "Apollyon" is one of Satan's names, and this name is derived from the word apostasy.

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

satan comes before Christ and if you think you gonna escape this fact by leaving in some rapture , you will be deceived

I Corinthians 15:35 "But some man will say, "How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

Paul is now going to tell us what happens and we bury them in the ground. Pay attention so that you will understand and there will be no confusion. So if you believe in the resurrection, than how does it happen? Where does it take place, and with what body does the dead rise?

We are talking about the physical body and it's change. In other words, what happens to the flesh after death, and the soul after it has departed from the body?

I Corinthians 15:36 "Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:"

It is important to understand the word "quickened",

It means to "revitalize" [# 2227 in Strong's] the soul, and become conscience and ready for judgment. This doesn't mean that all souls are saved, but that all souls are given life to continue as they were. If that soul was lost, it will still be lost, but the final death will not take place until after this age of the flesh is over, after the Millennium age, and the Great white throne judgment is finish. Then will be the time of the "second death" or the death of the lost souls. It means that the soul has put off the flesh body, and put on their spiritual body, but their soul is still condemned to death if it is not in right standing with God.

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

By placing the Word of God in your mind, it becomes the standard for all of your thought, and it directs the intents of your mind, which is you heart. Christ is the Living Word, and He can discern the intent of your mind, you can't fool Him. Within man's soul is his spirit, and the spirit is the intellect part of His thought process.

You have to be able to separate those things to understand the resurrection. Paul is now going to explain our flesh body to us, not the soul, the spirit, or our thought process, but our flesh and blood body.

I Corinthians 15:37 "And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:"

Paul is comparing our flesh body with other living things, such as a grain of wheat. When the seed is separated from its parent plant it is as naked as a new born baby. This is the body of the wheat, and this is not the grain that you see coming for in new plants next year. This seed of wheat that you set aside for the next years crop is what must die before it can raise up again in a new form. That body of wheat is gone, and that is what happens to our flesh. It must die before the new beautiful spiritual body can come forth.

The instant that the flesh body dies, the soul and spirit body is present with the Lord that gave it in the first place. The flesh decays back into the elements of the earth that it is made of, and your soul returns to the Father. Paul could not have made it more simpler than the using of a grain of wheat in comparison to our flesh bodies. Just as all of nature functions, so it is with man.

I Corinthians 15:44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

There is a natural body, which is your flesh body, and there is also a spiritual or soul body. The two are different and when the natural body, or flesh body dies the spiritual body is "raised", or in the Greek text "egiro, awakened, become active from its death". You have two bodies, one natural body contains your spiritual body, and that spiritual body is awakened to a new life, when the flesh or natural body dies and releases your soul. Your spirit and your soul are together, for the spirit is your "self", "the intellect of your soul" which houses your spirit within you.


I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"


I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

If you are waiting for a rapture, then you are going to be raptured by someone other than Jesus Christ for He is coming to earth to set up His kingdom here. The seventh trump is the exact time when the change takes place, and at no other place.

Everyone is going to enter into the only dimension whereby any soul can be judged. This change from the flesh body into your new spiritual or incorruptible has nothing to do with the condition of your soul. If you were lost before, you still will be lost, and if you have received Jesus Christ and are under His shed blood, you will be in that same spiritual condition. What is happening is at the sounding of the seventh which is the last trumpet all flesh will be done away with, and all souls will now exist in their spiritual bodies.

mark13
1corin15

Truther said:

Whether we are alive or already dead at the rapture, we will automatically get new bodies when being caught up together. We need our new bodies to return with Jesus per Rev 19 and reign with him on earth.
God will not pre-kill us to give us our new bodies.

Click to expand...

What do you mean by pre kill?

At death you return to God in your spiritual body, that's how's He's able to bring those who have died with Him at His return

Those alive at His coming are not killed by Him, rather they are changed, as flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom .

Flesh is nothing but dirt

n2thelight said:

Did not Paul and Christ say His return was after the tribulation ?

Let's do Christ first ,

Mark 13:1 "And as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples saith unto Him, "Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!"

Mark 13:2 "And Jesus answering said unto him, "Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

This has not happened to this date. Many today think that this was the time of Titus' destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., However, that mischief doesn't even compare to the destruction and the tribulation that God describes that would take place at Jesus Christ's return, at the end of this earth age when these stones are cast down and turned to powder. Why is this? Because Jerusalem is going to be turned to sand when Jesus returns at the sounding of the seventh trump. Those huge stones will be nothing but tiny grains of sand. Jerusalem is going to be flattened and cleansed to the point whereby the Millennium temple can be build.

Mark 13:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked Him privately,"

Mark 13:4 "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?"

This marks the subject for the entire chapter. Now Jesus is going to tell us the seven seals what will take place before His second advent. These seven seals are the equivalent of the seven trumpets, and the seven plagues. The seals are not in order, however the seven trumpet of Revelation mark the order that the events will come to pass. The "sound of the trumpet" is the sound that executes the order of the event that shall take place. It is God's order of the happenings at the end of this earth age of the flesh. The seals are not in order, but are given in such a way that the deceiver himself is put in the foreground, to where we can understand completely through the seals. It is the deceiver himself that causes the confusion that take place. Jesus is now going to tell us the events that take place when the end will come.

Mark 13:13 "And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

When?

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

Matthew 24:31 "And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

This is the seventh and the last trumpet, and there will be no coming by Christ until that time, except the Spirit of God working within you. This is the time that the angels of God will go to every corner of the earth, and even to the heavens to gather the elect of God.

There is no rapture in God's Word of Matthew, nor anywhere else

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Isn't is the case of asking, Return for whom? Israel or the church?

farouk said:

Isn't is the case of asking, Return for whom? Israel or the church?

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See that's the whole problem, Israel is the Church, always has been ,the 2 can't be separated ,let the Word explain it

Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

We are all one body, in faith in Jesus Christ that have eternal life.

Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Genesis 22:16-18

Genesis 22:16-18 records God's embellishment of the promise on the occasion of Abraham's "sacrifice" of his son Isaac. God promises to multiply Abraham and to give him control of strategic military and commercial positions, "gates," in his enemies' territories. As we will see, this promise speaks of the geopolitical advantage God later gave Abraham's descendents. God bases this promise on Abraham's obedience of the command to sacrifice his son, Isaac, a sacrifice God of course stopped just before the knife fell. Note, too, that this promise has the effect of an oath, in that God swears by Himself.

Since this is the last recorded promise to Abraham, it is fitting that God should refer to His first promise, recorded in Genesis 12:1-3. God reminds Abraham of His promise that his seed would be a blessing to all nations. In Galatians 3:16, Paul makes it plain that this "Seed" is Christ. Christ, who is in the lineage of Abraham, blazed a trail by which all peoples could ultimately develop a relationship with the Father. Christ's work makes it possible for God to be our God, according to the promise of Genesis 17:7-8. Christ is indeed a blessing to all nations.

God divorced Israel and He will not remarry her until the marriage supper Israel are Christian nation and all whom believe in Christ , not the kenite occupied land in the middle east whom don't even believe in Christ!!!

n2thelight said:

See that's the whole problem, Israel is the Church, always has been ,the 2 can't be separated ,let the Word explain it

Galatians 3:28 "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

We are all one body, in faith in Jesus Christ that have eternal life.

Galatians 3:29 "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Genesis 22:16-18

Genesis 22:16-18 records God's embellishment of the promise on the occasion of Abraham's "sacrifice" of his son Isaac. God promises to multiply Abraham and to give him control of strategic military and commercial positions, "gates," in his enemies' territories. As we will see, this promise speaks of the geopolitical advantage God later gave Abraham's descendents. God bases this promise on Abraham's obedience of the command to sacrifice his son, Isaac, a sacrifice God of course stopped just before the knife fell. Note, too, that this promise has the effect of an oath, in that God swears by Himself.

Since this is the last recorded promise to Abraham, it is fitting that God should refer to His first promise, recorded in Genesis 12:1-3. God reminds Abraham of His promise that his seed would be a blessing to all nations. In Galatians 3:16, Paul makes it plain that this "Seed" is Christ. Christ, who is in the lineage of Abraham, blazed a trail by which all peoples could ultimately develop a relationship with the Father. Christ's work makes it possible for God to be our God, according to the promise of Genesis 17:7-8. Christ is indeed a blessing to all nations.

God divorced Israel and He will not remarry her until the marriage supper Israel are Christian nation and all whom believe in Christ , not the kenite occupied land in the middle east whom don't even believe in Christ!!!

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1 Corinthians 10.32 says, 'Give none offence...neither to the Jews, nor to the Greeks, nor to the church of God.'

Where Paul says to the Corinthians in 1 Cor. 11.26, 'As often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till He come', he is talking about the church, not Israel.

Truther said:

We are just commenting past each other.

I disagree with your basis, so it is proper to discuss the subjects line by line.

If you cannot prove something happened in history, why argue historic ideas?

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You claimed to be adept at arguing with your detractors. You haven't shown that ability at all. Line by line commentary is not a discussion--it is just promoting your own views. Enjoy your own commentary, but don't claim to be able to disprove my position--you aren't showing that.

Arguing what happened in history is simply a matter of referring to the records of what happened. We know the 70 AD event happened. We know the Jews went into exile at that time, and following, and that the Jewish Diaspora still continues to the present day.

The history is not in question. What is in question is your failure to interpret the words that specifically address these things. Having quoted what Jesus said in this regard I've successfully shown you the proper interpretation, that Jesus referred to the fall of the temple in his own generation, with an accompanying Jewish punishment that would last all age long.

Luke 21.
5 Some of his disciples were remarking about how the temple was adorned with beautiful stones and with gifts dedicated to God. But Jesus said, 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”
7 “Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”...
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Truther said:

Jesus spoke in Matt 24 of the Great Tribulation.
We see it lasting 7 years in the book of Rev.

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We see absolutely *no reference* to a 7 year period in the book of Revelation! Some try to tie 2 periods of 3.5 years together to create a 7 year period, but there is no reference at all to a "7 year period!" If your argument is based on this deception, then your whole claim falls apart. There is no 7 year period, and thus your argument has no basis.

There is reference to a 70th Week in Dan 9, but it is never said to be a full Week, and it took place at Jesus' 1st Coming. He was to be "cut off" in the "midst of the Week." That is, the full Week was never completed.

The 70th Week of Dan 9 bears no relationship to the Reign of Antichrist at the end of history. According to Dan 7, the Reign of Antichrist will last 3.5 years. And then, it seems the world turns against him, and gathers to Armageddon. How long it takes for the Kings of the East to gather to Armageddon we are not told. But we are assured that Antichrist's unbridled and unrivaled power only lasts 1260 days. Beyond that his power will be challenged.

Truther said:

Jesus said if the days of it are not shortened, everyone would die.

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Yes, Jesus said he would not allow Jewish extermination, or a complete genocide of the Jewish People. All through history people of this world have tried to destroy the Jewish People. Since the Jews were called to be God's People, the ungodly world has tried to unseat the place of the Jews in history. They also hate the Christians, and would exterminate us, as well.

Truther said:

Rev. shows just how that will happen.

You think the Great Tribulation is stretched out over 2000 years.

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I don't just think it--I know it! I know it not because I think it but rather, because Jesus *said it!* I quoted it for you from Luke 21--why don't you believe Jesus, as opposed to your favorite theologians?

Truther said:

You need to tell me when the days will be shortened.

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When Jesus comes back.

Davy said:

Tim LaHaye's "Left-Behind" series of books and movies are a complete hoax and a joke, even robbery of Christian brethren who spends their money to buy such devilish trash.

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So is saying God destroyed Israel in 70AD. There has got to be a better explanation to a rapture, than saying God did this and God did that and it cannot happen in the future. The ROMANS destroyed the temple and scattered the Jews, and not because of prophecy nor the will of God. Tribulation did not start in 70AD. Paul was already at work starting with the stoning of Stephen.

Notice what the Sanhedrin feared the day Lazarus was raised from the dead: John 11:46-54

46 But some of them went off to the P’rushim and told them what he had done. (Raised Lazarus from the dead)
47 So the head cohanim and the P’rushim called a meeting of the Sanhedrin and said, “What are we going to do? — for this man is performing many miracles.
48 If we let him keep going on this way, everyone will trust in him, and the Romans will come and destroy both the Temple and the nation.”
49 But one of them, Kayafa, who was cohen gadol that year, said to them, “You people don’t know anything!
50 You don’t see that it’s better for you if one man dies on behalf of the people, so that the whole nation won’t be destroyed.”
51 Now he didn’t speak this way on his own initiative; rather, since he was cohen gadol that year, he was prophesying that Yeshua was about to die on behalf of the nation,
52 and not for the nation alone, but so that he might gather into one the scattered children of God.

53 From that day on, they made plans to have him put to death.
54 Therefore Yeshua no longer walked around openly among the Judeans but went away from there into the region near the desert, to a town called Efrayim, and stayed there with his talmidim.

Two things here: They said if they did not stop Jesus, the Romans would come and destroy both the Temple and Jerusalem.

They think if one man would die, the nation would be saved.

Tell me how they avoided history with those two statements.

Potentially accepting Jesus, would be the overthrow of Rome. Yet not God's timing.

Jesus had to die, to save Israel from their sins.

What actually happened. They rejected the death of Jesus and died in their sins and Rome destroyed both the Temple and Jerusalem.

The Sanhedrin did not accomplish their desires, but they did accomplish the Will of God. The Romans came because the Jews did have revolt and civil strife any way. 70AD is not in Scripture as any work of God, because it was not of God. Did God warn them? Yes; Jesus said it would happen. Jumping to conclusions and claiming God "did it" is just the same as getting the Second Coming all wrong.

God did not even have a hand in the Greeks taking over Israel before Christ. Daniel just said it would happen. There was no reason on Israel's part. 70AD was nothing special, but just Israel being their normal selves. They rejected God, they rejected the young church, they were still working out sinful flesh like any other pagan tribe on the outer edges of the Roman empire.

Truther said:

So, Jesus will kill you to remake you if He returns today and you are alive?

What method will he use to kill you and your loved ones?

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Luke 17:33
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
KJV

Oh, I forgot, Jesus gave the above verse in the following context...

Luke 17:33-37
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV

Randy Kluth said:

I won't go so far as to say LaHaye and others like him are "evil." But yes, I do believe their material is inspired by the wrong spirit, by evil, deceiving spirits. Deceiving the Church with unbiblical deceptions is never a godly thing. You think?

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I like to keep it more simple. Those like Time LaHaye and Hal Lindsey are simply deceived by following men's doctrines instead of trusting in God's written Word. But the 'originators' of the Pre-trib Rapture theory are the actual devils.

Truther said:

So, Jesus will kill you to remake you if He returns today and you are alive?

What method will he use to kill you and your loved ones?

Click to expand...

Jesus points out that is the reason the angels are here. Paul says the church will leave respectfully. The sheep being separated from the goats, and the harvest of the wheat, involves Angels, and slightly more hands on and physical. That is why no one "sees" the Second Coming correctly. They do not see how Jesus' teachings fit into Revelation. At the Second Coming Jesus, the 144k, and the angels are going over the whole earth gathering the sheep and the wheat as Jesus taught. This is not a battle scene. This is going on during the Trumpets and Thunders. It will take months, even years. Satan nor the FP have even begun. The first thing Satan is allowed is not until the 5th Trumpet. He is allowed to release his own angels from the pit, they have been bound in for thousands of years. The FP is not even revealed until the 7th Trumpet when Satan's angels are once again defeated and once again cast out of heaven.

The Second Coming is not at the end. The Second Coming and rapture happen before the 7th Seal. Then the Trumpets start.

Timtofly said:

So is saying God destroyed Israel in 70AD. There has got to be a better explanation to a rapture, than saying God did this and God did that and it cannot happen in the future. The ROMANS destroyed the temple and scattered the Jews, and not because of prophecy nor the will of God. Tribulation did not start in 70AD. Paul was already at work starting with the stoning of Stephen.

Click to expand...

Just because I don't believe a Pre-trib Rapture theory which started being preached in 1830s Great Britain by John Nelson Darby and Edward Irving doesn't mean I believe in man's theory of Preterism either. The timelines written in God's Word stand independent of men's theories that are obviously not aligned with it. And those two systems of men's doctrines are obviously not aligned with the written Word of God. Nor does it matter how 'popular' men's theories are. If it don't align, then it ain't God's Word; simple as that.

And your short history of Israel rejecting Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ is irrelevant to the Pre-trib Rapture theory subject being discussed here. Pre-tribulationism didn't even start being preached in a Christian Church until the 1830s.