the ages of the heaven and earth

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betchevy

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you may have to chew it for a long time....If you don't understand... you will not do it by words from me or Swampfox...I will try one more time... It was discussed on the q and a of SCN this am...I will use the answer PM gave... you all will not understand that either but one will..When we look to the verse John 3:16 the word everlasting in the Greek means from the beginning of time to the end... If you believe in the first earth age, then you will see this, we were there...How many angels do you think there are....Look to the sky how many stars do you see..Kriss not all the rebellious angels were fallen angels, this sounds like symantics, but I am using the terms you did so we can classify them.Some did agree to be born of woman...I believe that is why the earth is so full of evil at this time...They are here now. God wiped out our memory of the first earth age, you do not remember it, but you have a greater amount of brain that you use, right?I have been praying specifically for John to understand this... I am going to include all who read now....I may have been wrong in bringing out this subject, for it took me many years to percieve this and I am asking you to swallow a camel...As I said only God really can help you understand this...John I will try to answer your questions of the quotesmaybe we didnt see the Father in the first earth age? He walked with Adam and Eve in the garden....Perhaps we cannot really look on the true entity that God is.. look a the mountain and Moshe at what happened the mountain was burnished and melted into Lapiz Azure a complete floor of it and Moshe glowed for a long time... a long time.. his face was changed from being in the presence, and he never got to look at God....so perhaps Christ meant flesh men, or perhaps he meant we really cound not see with our eyes even in the spiritual realm....I am not sure, if it tells us in the Word, I have not see it this past years of study...Again I will be praying.... you will have to pray for understanding also, but lets continue and talk about some other things about the 3 ages of of the Earth, put it on the shelf so to speak, of course I will answer any question anyone asks me, but I think for you, it will come from God , not me.
 

Christina

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I know that we were all created in the first earth age in our spirit bodies I know it was the time of Satans rebellion, I have no doubt that many of us were involved in this rebellion and some followed Satan, But it is also when the elect were choosen because they stood against Satan.Where the confusion is with me, and maybe John is just because we were in spirit I'm not sure were you are getting we were the same as the angles. I always thought the angles were different from us.Even in the spirit I don't think angles and human spirits are the same. Am I missing something?
 

betchevy

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Archangels , angels, cherubs, I THINK , swampfox may have more insight..Michael, HaSatan, Gabriel, Raphael, a couple more name guys..They were the grabbers.the ones who guard the throne...the chrerubs are like singers with no free will..Angels are the rest of created beings..those with intellegence.
 

Christina

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Right I agree there are several types of Angels created for different purposes I still don't recall anything about the spirit bodies of "us" being called angels. Swampfox do you have any input here.
 

John

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Hello to all I would like to know, why you all are so sure that we existed before Adam? Why are you all so sure, that when God created man, he didn't create him new, body, soul and spirit?
 

Christina

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Its actually a pretty common teaching after some discussion and a refresher course I think we have agreed All souls(us in a sprit body) were created in the first age,All angels existedat this time. Satan rebelled took a third of the Angels with him a third of the souls (us,called God children)also followed Satan and his Angels in rebellion. Some resisted and were choosen to be the elect ones. Because of this rebellion God ended the first earth age. Imagine 1/3 of all the people that ever lived on earth (because their was that many souls) joining in this rebelleion thats alot of souls somewhere in the billions.If you check out Swampfox's study,and the other two listed here you will see that they are all simular but not exactly alike the fact is we are given little information because it really is of little import. What we need to know to understand our Bible and this age is that There are world ages, Satan rebelled wanting to be God this theme of a rebelling Satan and his fallen angels(nepilium) is throught out of Bible and this age.
 

HammerStone

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Sorry John, been having internet troubles or I would have posted this sooner. Alright, let's all stop for a moment right here. This thread is to help John understand what is going on here. We're all trying to help, but I am afraid we all three have different trains of thought on the matter and that's only making it worse. I am going to ask that we go step by step and only answer what John has asked as specfically as possible.
If i am confused I apologize, but it seems to me that this lesson is teaching, that our spirits came from the fallen Angels
That is not the case. What the lesson, and the Bible, ultimately teaches is that there was another age in which our spiritual bodies were involved. In a very simplified nutshell, there was a war in heaven - Ezekiel 28 sheds some insight - led by Lucifer (Satan) himself. Some of us rebelled, others of us did not rebel. Exactly who did what is unknown, but there are some clues in the Bible because God's Word speaks of those he knew in the womb and ordained before the foundation of the world - the Hebrew/Greek here suggests more specifically age.Our time in this age is the chance to see where the allegiance is for lack of a better word. We all have the chance to come to God and those that do will be spared the second death. Those that do not will suffer it.The fallen angels are to be distinct from us. Angels are on a higher order than man and then you have the Biblically defined order of angels - not the order that man has created. As someone above me said, you have seraphs, cherubims, archangels and the like. Look into the Hebrew and Greek if you have a Strong's. In the OT, one of the Hebraic words is #H0047 which means purity and sinlessness of life. In the NT, it's #G0032, Aggelos which means messenger. Angels, we can safely infer, are God's trusted messengers. They were retained because God knew he could count on them just as he knew he could count on prophets, disciples, and apostles of the OT and NT.Angels are in the spiritual realm, if youBullinger Appendices:Sons of God in Genesis 6: http://www.levendwater.org/companion/append23.htmlFoundation of the World: http://www.levendwater.org/companion/append146.html To answer your last question, when God created Adam, it says he breathed his spirit into him. It doesn't say a word about creation of his spirit there. That was my first hint long before I knew of the first earth age and studied it.
 

betchevy

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Good teaching Swampfox .... Id like to add on thing I found from another site , if we didn't exist in the first earth age, then the reason for the 2nd earth age would not exist. God created the 2nd to redeem the souls that followed Satan, so He would not have to destroy them..if we weren't there then it wouldn't make sense... Hope this doesn't muddy the waters..
 

n2thelight

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These stars of God/sons of God were with God BEFORE He laid the foundations of the Earth; as a careful read of the entire chapter shall declare. Job 38:1-738:1 Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? KJVDo you know who these sons of God and the morning stars are mentioned here?They were us,right after God created this earth,for us.And just to add,it was created perfect,not void and without form
 

John

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Thank you allAgain, I have no problem with the possibility of an earlier age. My problem begins when you say we were there
Some of us rebelled, others of us did not rebel. Exactly who did what is unknown, but there are some clues in the Bible because God's Word speaks of
Again here it looks like you are saying we were angels, I say this because we know 1/3 of Gods angels rebelled and you are saying some of us rebelled or are you saying we fought with the angels, correct me if I am wrong, but I think you are saying we fought along side, some with some against
but there are some clues in the Bible because God's Word speaks of those he knew in the womb and ordained before the foundation of the world

To answer your last question, when God created Adam, it says he breathed his spirit into him. It doesn't say a word about creation of his spirit there. That was my first hint long before I knew of the first earth age and studied it.
This is more of what I have been asking for, at least I can see where your reasoning is coming from.I don't believe the fact that God knew us before we were in the womb supports your conclusions. I believe God knew us before he created anything before he created anyone he knew usYour other point is better and harder to answer. It says he breathed the breath of life into man. This is referring to his spirit? I am not sure, When God says lets make man in our image. He is not talking about flesh and blood, he is talking about The spirit man. God is spirit. We are created in the imageof GodHe created Man, He is not talking about our flesh and blood bodies I don't believe we have been recycled
 

Christina

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It really doesnt matter whether we were called angles or Gods children or spirit. The facts are the same we were all created as spirit beings in the first earth age, we participated in the rebellion of Lucifer and God ended the age.
 

betchevy

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This is not a exercise in thrift, but a way to save the souls God loves so much instead of destroy them....Pray sleep on it and Pray.. see if you get a peace about it. How else would He have to redeem those who rebelled? He isn't recyling us He is placing us into a flesh body in order to make a decision about whether or not we love him....ARE we the flesh body or are we really the spirit man inside us? the spirit man or our intellect has not changed who we are.. we even look like who wer were in the spirit body...the flesh is very temporary.. the soul is eternal...I had an epiphany (spelling?) on this when I was considering my son 's Baptism....I realized we are spirit bodies baptized into flesh... to walk this age, for God or again against Him...So now, PRAY and see if God will help, say to Him IF THIS IS TRUE.... HELP ME TO SEE IT AS TRUTH....I will be praying also...
 

Jordan

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Although didn't know it first, but after reading the whole topic (this one) I really do believe that we were souls in the first age. But to be honest, since we have limited knowledge in the flesh body (second age) it's clearly obviously we have no memory of that past.
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Lovest ye in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour.P.S. I think it may be difficult to find time gap for the first age. (to me) I love Him and Him as much as I can.
 

Christina

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JohnUpon praying for your understanding I came to the realization you are bogged down in the wrong question. Why is the first age alluded to at all in scripture. Is the important question here.Answer: it tells us why we have to go through this earth age of choosing with our own free will who we will follow Christ or Satan.It also explains why Satan/Lucifer was attacking this age from the very beginning through Eve by trying to destroy the seed that Christ would come through.What we were is not important. Why we were is what matters. with a thought God created all souls. He created a hierarchy of Arch Angels to guide/govern and watch over us the most beautiful and knowledgeable one of these arch Angels was Lucifer. When he rebelled some of us followed him. We do not know why we did this ignorance, naiivety, but does not matter. This same type scenario will play out again at the end of this age when we have to choose who we follow. There is and has been a war in heaven,between God and Lucifer and God will win. There is nothing knew under the sun everything that happened before will happen again. You are getting lost in trying to figure out what we were then. God wants us to concentrate on this age, that's why the first is barley eluded to and was wiped from our memory.AS I said above the main reason we are even told this is to explain:1.We are spirit creatures enclosed in flesh bodies,we were created by God in the first earth age.2.It tells there was a rebellion in heaven led by Lucifer3.This war continues, which is why Satan attacks from the beginning of this age.4. God ended the age.5. This age started and we have the word of God,the instuctions on how to overcome Satan's, lies and strong delusions.
 

John

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Kriss and Bets thank you for you thought and time and prayers. I appreciate them greatly, Thank you!The problem here is your are not answering my question, if I am going to change what I believe, then I need you to give me biblical evidence. For example, if I asked if Jesus and God are one, you would give me numerous verses to support your view. If I asked do we still have to follow the law. Again you would quote scripture, but here no one has been able to give me scriptural reference, that supports your view. I can see that the possibility of three ages , I don't have a problem there. I know there are different types of Angels. I don't have a problem there.My problem occurs when you say we were there. Please show me biblical proof that man existed in the first age. Yes I read all the studies you asked me too, but no where does it address the fact the our spiritual bodies where there
You are getting lost in trying to figure out what we were then. God wants us to concentrate on this age, that's why the first is barley eluded to and was wiped from our memory.AS I said above the main reason we are even told this is to explain:1.We are spirit creatures enclosed in flesh bodies,we were created by God in the first earth age.2.It tells there was a rebellion in heaven led by Lucifer3.This war continues, which is why Satan attacks from the beginning of this age.4. God ended the age.5. This age started and we have the word of God,the instructions on how to overcome Satan's, lies and strong delusions. in the first age
No, I am not getting lost on what we were then. I am getting lost on why you say we were there then. Why are you assuming we were there, is there a scriptural reference that suggest this. Where do we get the Idea that we were created in the first ageBets, has said that it was because of Gods great love for those who rebelled, that God has given us a second chance for life, but I would say that this might not be the case. It seems to me you are assuming the rebellion happened in a short period of time and God quickly threw it down. and only after the rebellion did God come up with a plan to save these spirits, but this would not be the God we know. I am sure that there was many chances for repentance, that there were many warnings. all through the bible we see Gods mercies, I can only assume that Our loving God gave the angels EVERY opportunity to change God said lets create man in our image. I am sorry, but I see man being created in this age. God being spirit creating us in his image I am sure That our great loving God gave these spirits or angels every opportunity to repent and come to him.I believe God created man because unlike the angels we needed to be broken to find God, we needed to come to a place where, we recognize the fact that we are nothing without him, that we are unworthy of his love and mercies. We come to God knowing we need him, this is what makes us different from the angels We have to choose to know God my opinion am not saying it is truth just my opinion Last question, A thread goes to 4 pages and then ends?
 

Christina

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I asked if Jesus and God are one, you would give me numerous verses to support your view.
yes that is explained in trinity studies.
If I asked do we still have to follow the law.] Christ came not to change one iota of the law,however there is a difference between laws and ordinances. We are also in a time of grace in that if we break the law (comandments) we can repent and be forgiven[quote} I can see that the possibility of three ages ,
It is not just a possibility 2 Peter states it as fact.I'm can't think of another verse off hand that proves we existed in the first earth age but how else does God know us before we are born ? , why was Satan rebelling from the beginning? We did not exist in flesh bodies until this age. There was no flesh in first age. some of this can only be understood in the Hebrew so it makes it difficult when we are talking very few verses. You might also check out Isaiah 45:18 "for thus saith the Lord That created the heavens; God Himself That formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it not in vain, He formed it to be inhabited: "I am the Lord; and there is none else."Eph 2:7 - 3:9;the term ages is strongs 165 definition of ages in Hebrew1) for ever, an unbroken age, perpetuity of time, eternity2) the worlds, universe3) period of time, ageI ask if you know there is a new world coming why do you find it so difficult to believe there was a world age before when science proves everyday the earth can not just be 7000 to 14000 years old. All science can not be wrongso it seems to me its harder to believe there was not a first earth age we no little about.And if we did not exist in it then how do you explain Gods plan, what would we have to do with Satans rebellion? why did it grieve God to make us flesh? Can you see nothing makes sense when you think about it if this is not true and God is not the author of confusion.
 

Christina

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Also from the companion bible appendex we have(Ap. 193), that secret "which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to His saints" (Col. 1:26), that secret "which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men" (Eph. 3:5). Hid in God from the beginning of the world (see Eph. 3:9), it was kept secret since the world began (see Rom. 16:25).2Peter 3:5Tells of a world destroyed /3:6 perished(this is not Noahs flood as the world was never destroyed nor perish in the flood)3:7 Tells of this earth and this heaven (this current age/world) 2 Peter 3:5 But it is hid from them willing this thing, that heavens were before, and the earth of water was standing by water, by God's word [that heavens were first, and the earth of water and by water being, or standing, together by God's word]; 3:6 by which [things] that same world cleansed, then by water perished. 3:7 But the heavens that now be, and the earth, be kept by the same word, and be reserved to fire into the day of doom and perdition of wicked men. [Forsooth the heavens that now be, and the earth, by the same word put again, be kept to fire into the day of doom and perdition of unpious men.]
 

Christina

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Three earth ages One of the biggest controversies between religious scholars, scientist and archaeologist, is how the earth was formed and how old it is. Many religious scholars believe that the earth was created 6,000 years ago, contradicting proof of a dinosaur or Stone Age millions of years old. On the other hand many scientist and archaeologist believe in millions of years of evolution forming the world on it's own, leaving out the possibility of creation. Let us take a deeper study into the Word of God and find out that it speaks of the foundation of the world that was created by God, Eons ago. We will also find that there are three earth ages or dispensations of time. The world that was, the world now and the world to come. Let us begin our study with the Gospel of Saint John. IN the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He made all things; and without him was not any thing made that was made. (John 1:1,3) Literally, "the Word," meaning Christ, the wisdom and power of God and the first cause of all things; God's personal expression of himself to men. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. (Revelation 22:13) All time and things begin and end with the Word of God! IN the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Genesis 1:1) This is speaking of when God laid the foundation of the world. (Themelios) in the Greek. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare, if thou hast understanding. (Job 38:4) When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy! (Job 38:7) Speaking of the foundation of the world, when the souls God created, were in angelic or spirit bodies. This is the period of time when the dinosaurs (Behemoth) roamed the earth. God's Word gives us an excellent description of the Behemoth in the book of Job. It is said through studies of the original transcripts, that God destroyed this first earth age or dispensation of time. This destruction was because of Satan's rebellion. (Katabole in the Greek language). And the earth was without form, and void; and the darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. (Genesis 1:2) In the Hebrew manuscripts it is stated in (Genesis 1:2) that the earth was not created void, but became void! (Tohu va bohu) in the Hebrew language, meaning void and desolate. For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else. (Isaiah 45:18). For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the Word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same Word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (II Peter 3:5-7) This is not talking of Noah's flood, but of the firmament flood that by the hand of God destroyed the first earth age or dispensation of time. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. (Genesis 1:3) The beginning of the second earth age or dispensation of time. That same earth age we live in now mentioned in (II Peter 3:7), that is kept in store for judgment day.
 

kendal

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I have never seen these studies before, but want to present basic arguements we can discuss. Firstly, as someone who has learned the principles of evolution from University, we were created and did not evolve. I say this because if yuo believe science when it says dinosaurs are this amount of years old, you also have to believe them when they say that things are millions of years older then they are, are you suggesting that God made invertebrates, made a new age, made other animals and so on and sor forth. No all the animals died at one time. The flood.The sons of God are simply Adams offspring which stayed loyal to God. Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Adam and Seths offspring would have been mainly Christian, but it is obvious that Christians went and saw that the women of men (non-Christians) were good looking, and fell into the sin of desire like Eve had done. Angels are also sons of God, but cannot marry, therefore God didn't design they could have offspring. If this was so, why isn't Satan having Kids now. Giants. Noah was a preacher, he was trying to save the Antideluvians and get them into the ark, You say that these men were all plain evil because they had Satanic genes, which is a bit unfair if that was their last chance to choose God, and they were born with an inability to do so.The word was from Genesis 1 appears about 3500 times in the Bible.Jeremiah 4 is an end-time prophecy, not a pre-world description.2 Peter obviously is talking about the flood of Noah, as he makes reference to it the chapter beforehand. v5Now the last arguement, where does it say that we pre-existed (this is a mormon belief btw) And where does it say that the spirit that God breathed into Adams nostrils was Adams soul? When Genesis calls Adam a soul, not "has a soul" but is a soul.Also someone said that cherubs don't have free-will, but they do, Satan is a cherub.If this age thing is true, and we are not told about it, what good comes from studying it. The studies you are presenting, although i think the Genesis 1:1,2 seems viable - the gap theory - btw heavens doesn't always mean Heaven or God's throne, it also means the sky, and also the stars, God made the sky and the earth can be an interpretationLast but not least, your theory is only valid if God created Eve to sin. Because if she didn't sin, we wouldn't all be in this sinful condition, we would have been born normal. And if she didn't sin? then we would never leave our bodies, (i am not suggesting we can at all however). And if we all were made normal, then wouldn't we automatically choose God? - i guess i have to look at the "real sin in eden" study for this one (btw this God let Eve do it doctrine is also Mormon)God bless and thanks for the study, it seems interesting, but doesn't seem likely.P.S - If you study the dragon from Revelation 12, and the beast from Revelation 13, and the beast from Revelation 17, these are the same beasts, only in Revelation 12, the 4th head is reigning, in 13 it is the 5th head which is reigning and the 5th head which receives the wound, in Revelation 17 it is the 5th head which is was reigning, and then the 6th then the seventh.Just to give you the answer, the dragon is Rome. It is also Satan, just like the king of Tyre was also Satan in Ezekiel. (Rome was the nation which tried to kill Jesus when he was born, and also the nation which killed many early Christians) The Dragon was Satan acting through Rome. Anyway God bless!!Please explain this belief to me more thoroughly!!
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