How Could Have Satan Sinned?
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BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
i disagree that the 144000 are all jewish, the 144000 is an international church with Jews and Gentiles.
Also the sealing of this 144000 began at Pentecost 33 C.E. when the first Jewish Christians were anointed with holy spirit. Later, God proceeded to call out and anoint “people of the nations.” (Gentiles) (Romans 3:29; Acts 2:1-4, 14, 32, 33; 15:14) The apostle Paul wrote about anointed Christians’ having a guarantee that they “belong to Christ” and added that God “has also put his seal upon us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit, in our hearts.” (2 Corinthians 1:21, 22; compare Revelation 14:1.) Thus, when these slaves are adopted as God’s spiritual sons, they receive a token in advance of their heavenly inheritance—a seal, or pledge. (2 Corinthians 5:1, 5; Ephesians 1:10, 11) They can then say: “The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.”—Romans 8:15-17.
In order to receive the crown of life, anointed Christians must endure, faithful even to death. (Revelation 2:10) It is not a matter of ‘once saved, always saved.’ (Matthew 10:22; Luke 13:24) Rather, they are admonished: “Do your utmost to make the calling and choosing of you sure for yourselves.” Like the apostle Paul, ultimately they must be able to say: “I have fought the fine fight, I have run the course to the finish, I have observed the faith.” (2 Peter 1:10, 11; 2 Timothy 4:7, 8) So here on earth the testing and sifting of the remaining spirit-begotten sons of God (remnant of 144000) must go on until Jesus and his accompanying angels will have firmly implanted the seal ‘in the forehead’ of all of these, identifying them conclusively, irrevocably, as tried and faithful “slaves of our God.” That seal then becomes a permanent mark. Evidently, when the four winds of tribulation are unleashed, all of spiritual Israel will have been sealed in finality, even though a few will still be alive in the flesh. (Matthew 24:13; Revelation 19:7) The entire membership will be complete!—Romans 11:25, 26.
Are they happy tears or are you upset about something? Sorry, I'm afraid that don't understand this comment.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I am overwhelmed that I should be loved.....that I should be loved with a love of which my understanding is so limited.....and as the windows of my mind open, as I see how pathetic my faith is in the face of such undeserved kindness, the tears flow easily.Are they happy tears or are you upset about something? Sorry, I'm afraid that don't understand this comment.
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
Oh Rosie....talking about love is one thing, experiencing it is another. What we should do and what we do do are two different things.What are you so overwhelmed about? Everybody should feel loved.
Seeing God's gift comes with progressive other awarenesses....the primary awareness is the extent of ones own unworthiness (its a bottomless abyss) It is layers upon layers of denial and false views of self and of God. Anyone who has the view of themselves as not sinning lives in a delusion about themselves (and I'm not talking about overt sin)
I have learned that two things happen when the windows of the soul are opened. One is the breathtaking view of Gods kindness the other is the extent of my unworthiness.....and these windows get bigger and bigger.....both generate tears. They are not tears of sadness....they are tears of gratitude. There is a reservoir of them concealed till God opens 'a window'
Paul knew about this when he speaks of coming to the various communities of believers 'with fear and trembling and many tears'
Well you're sort of making it sound like you've never felt love by anyone before and that's sad if that's the case.
Yes, but both holiness and wrath are part of the fundamental and intrinsic attributes of God. Why do you keep evading either the acknowledgement, or the harmonization of such a profound principle?
I cited every one of your lies.
And another lie!
Another lie!
You can't even cite one of my "lies".
Another lie! See, I keep citing your lies. You can't even cite one lie by me.
And they can see that all you do is parrot Kingdom Hall. That's where you studied, right? You should have read the Bible first.
Did Kingdom Hall tell you that you're a Greek Language expert? Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell!
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
I never mentioned darkness at all. I'm trying to resolve two undeniable and fundamental characteristics of God's nature, in a profound manner. The last thing that I will even concede to, is that there is any foul or darkness in God.
Annihilating one's own creation because they are unfit to be within a holy and glorious God's, presence, to me, does not necessitate a corruption or wickedness on the Creator's part. Whereas you can't seem to reconcile the two aspects of God's nature?
quietthinker
Well-Known Member
the wicked and wickedness will surely be destroyed but how that comes about is another question. Justice fundamentally means liberation from oppression. Can human beings think in terms of Justice without overt arbitrary punishment?... it seems not. We even superimpose our sentiments onto God claiming they are his. When we hear 'God's wrath' we relate our own tendency for revenge with it. Could it be that Satan has successfully convinced humans this is how God is?
Consider it....in God is no darkness at all.....nothing that diminishes life.......and Jesus displayed that.....he allowed the limits to be pushed......to where?....to his own death. He submitted to his own creation in the face of having absolute power to take a different course.....the one you and I would probably have taken ie, subdue the enemy with violence.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well according to many theologians they did until they passed the test. It seems the test was some kind of envy when God made Satan who was the anointed Cherub, who channeled all the praise of the universe to God. So satan desired to be like God then a 2nd test occurred in Genesis 6 when the angles fell to have sex with humans daughters.
These are more drawn from inference than direct verses.
1. God doesn't make anything imperfect.
2. Pride was found in Satans heart. This was not placed there by god but a choice made.
3. Satan swayed 1/3 of the angels from their loyalty to God.
4. Unfallen angels in Gen. 6 were lured away from God by sexual desire.
So they somehow had a free will to choose to sin or not sin. But it seems that after these two tests, Angels were "locked into their choices".
Just like we will be locked in after we get to heaven.
But you're again ignoring what the Bible says (Rev 7:4-8 WEB):
4) I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:
5) of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand, of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand,
6) of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand,
7) of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand,
8) of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
That's 5 verses making it very clear that all 144,000 are all Jewish, and are all from the twelve tribes mentioned (none from the tribe of Dan).
You're also ignoring that the Book of Revelation describes a sequence of events, and that the church has already been completed and resurrected and are in heaven prior to the point when the angel with the seal of God tells the four angels which are holding the four winds of the earth, to withhold the destructive winds until the 144,000 have been sealed.
The only other mention of the 144,000 is later on in the sequence of events (Rev 14:1-3):
I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him a number, one hundred forty-four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.
I heard a sound from heaven, like the sound of many waters, and like the sound of a great thunder. The sound which I heard was like that of harpists playing on their harps.
They sing a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the one hundred forty-four thousand, those who had been redeemed out of the earth.
I heard a sound from heaven, like the sound of many waters, and like the sound of a great thunder. The sound which I heard was like that of harpists playing on their harps.
They sing a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the one hundred forty-four thousand, those who had been redeemed out of the earth.
They are still on the earth (Mount Zion), when they hear a sound from heaven, a sound like harpists playing ("the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having a harp" - Rev 5:8), which is the resurrected church worshiping God with a new song. It then says that no one (on earth) could learn that new song except the 144,000. They are separate from the church and they are Jews living on the earth, the first to be redeemed from among mankind, they were "redeemed by Jesus from among men, the first fruits to God and to the Lamb" (Rev 14:4). They are not part of the new creation, the body of Christ, they are eternally human, living on the earth. They will be the earthly part of God's kingdom on the earth during the Millennial Age:
(Isa 2:2) It shall happen in the latter days, that the mountain of Yahweh’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be raised above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it.
(Isa 2:3) Many peoples shall go and say, “Come, let’s go up to the mountain of Yahweh, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion the law shall go out, and Yahweh’s word from Jerusalem.
Sorry QT, many false predicates?
'Justice fundamentally means liberation from oppression'
Not at all, it means a myriad of other things too - the exactment of punishment - which often leads to the incarceration, or oppression, of the transgressor.
'Can human beings think in terms of Justice without overt arbitrary punishment?'
Of course, turning the other cheek heaps burning coals on one's head, figure that one out? Plus, since when is it arbitrary - let the punishment fit the crime.
'When we hear 'God's wrath' we relate our own tendency for revenge with it.'
Not at all. God expresses His wrath in no compromising or ambiguous terms. And, He describes it in detail, and historically and Biblically, He has exacted it specifically and precisely as He had ordained it.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
There are Christians that are Jews and Gentiles who are the anointed, which means God chose these to be his Spiritual sons.These are those who are the elect and will be kings, and priests with Jesus in that heavenly Messianic kingdom that Jesus is king of, they will number 144000.These who are the anointed will be given immortality and inherit incorruption when they're resurrected, they will be in heaven ruling over mankind.
The servants of the true God who lived and died before Jesus came to mankind and those who are Christians from the time Jesus came to mankind but who have not been chosen to be of the 144000 will be the subjects of God kingdom and will live on paradise earth, these are the ones Jesus and 144000 will rule over. On paradise earth, God will do away with all illness and desease. He will do away with death that Adam caused to come into existence. Wars will be done away with, so will hunger and homelessness. Every tear will be wiped from Mankind.
I disagree the 144000 are Jews and Gentiles. It's you who are ignoring scripture. This not a reference to literal, fleshly Israel. Revelation 7:4-8 diverges from the usual tribal listing.
Also the mount zion that Jesus and the 144000 are on is in heaven. The sound you're trying to say "they" heard from heaven" doesn't say that, it says, " I heard a sound out of heaven" meaning the Apostle John heard a sound out of heaven.
All Christians make a covenant of sacrifice (Psalms 50:5 - “Gather my saints together to me, those who have made a covenant with me by sacrifice”; Romans 12:1 - "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service"). Having been redeemed Christians could live forever as humans, but just as Jesus sacrificed his human life (and did not continue living as a human) so must Christians. Having committed to sacrificing our human bodies, we cannot then be resurrected as human again.
Romans 6:3-5 says, "don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection". Therefore all christians will be resurrected as spirit beings, confirmed also by John:
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)
There is more than one tribal listing, as there were 14 members. Numbers 1 lists those able to go to war, i.e. excluding the Levites:
21) Reuben
22) Simeon
24) Gad
26) Judah
28) Issachar
30) Zebulun
32) Joseph, namely, of the children of Ephraim
34) Manasseh
36) Benjamin
38) Dan
40) Asher
42) Naphtali
Sometimes Ephraim and Manasseh, Joseph's two sons, are listed, or sometimes they're included with Joseph. I'm not sure there is a "usual" tribal listing.
The Rev 7 list excludes Dan and Ephraim, but Ephraim is included under Joseph. Manasseh is listed seperately because Dan is excluded. This is most likely because "The children of Dan set up for themselves the engraved image" (Judges 18:30) and "Cursed is the man who makes an engraved or molten image, an abomination to Yahweh" (Deuteronomy 27:15).
The passage is part of a description of things happening on the earth. John doesn't say that he was back in heaven again in his vision, so you have to assume that he is on the earth and seeing things happening there. He said, "I heard a sound from heaven" (Rev 14:2), or "I heard a voice out of the heaven"(Darby), therefore he was describing a scene on the earth. The Greek is "phone" and "ek", which translates to "voice or sound" "from or out of". Strong's Concordance for ek says:
a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; prep;
1) out of, from, by, away from
1) out of, from, by, away from
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quietthinker
Well-Known Member
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