Only 2 Comings by Lord Jesus, Not 3

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Timtofly

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The description of the resurrection of the dead in Christ and the catching up of those in Christ still alive in 1 Thessalonians is not a description of an extra coming again of Christ. Paul does not teach that Christ actually comes to the world at that time. He teaches that those who are in Christ, alive and dead will caught up to meet Christ "in the air", wherever that is. Because Paul would have had no real conception of the cosmos, "in the air" could mean either in space just above the earth, or somewhere beyond the known universe. But what he does teach is that rather than Christ coming to earth at that time, the church of true believers is taken up and transported to where Christ is. I believe that Christ comes nowhere near the earth at that time.

What proposes a problem to post-tribulation theologians is that the Scripture says that when Jesus comes back to earth He comes with tens of thousands of His saints (ie: the true believers in Christ). So, if true believers are still on earth when Christ comes again, where do the glorified believers who are with him come from, if they weren't taken up previously to meet Him somewhere in space?

The reason why post-tribulation theologians convenient ignore Paul's teaching to the Thessalonians, is that it does not fit their theology, and they have no real answer to it, because Paul teaches that at some time in human history, those in Christ who have died, and those still living will suddenly disappear from the world. Post Tribulation theologians can't tell us exactly when that will happen, because it doesn't fit with their time line of events. This is because when Christ comes again, He comes to intervene in the attempted destruction of Israel by defeating and destroying the armies of the AntiChrist, and then sets up His thousand year reign on earth. So, Paul's teaching of a rapture of the dead and living in Christ doesn't fit, so they deny that such a rapture is going to take place. Yet Paul clearly teaches that a rapture will take place, so they have to either say that Paul is mistaken or his teaching is so obscure that we cannot be understood.

The Second Coming is not at Armageddon. Armageddon is the clean up at the end of Satan's 42 months. The clean up should take the place of a "secret" rapture. By that I mean Christ is coming for the final harvest, not just mopping up after 42 months. The main event is not at the end. Move the main event to before the Trumpets and it works out. If you have not been chosen, by the last Trumpet, the 7th Trumpet, you have to have your head cut off. The 7th Trumpet is the end of the Second Coming, not the first Trumpet itself. The Second Coming includes the 6 Trumpets, because they are the time of the final harvest. The final harvest is the years leading up to the 42 months. Armageddon is just the "last stand" of those with the mark and who worship Satan. Christ is not coming back to rescue any at Armageddon. He is here to kill the last of Adam's flesh and blood.

The restoration is not before Satan's time, but a lot of destruction happens years before Satan's 42 months.
 

Paul Christensen

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The Second Coming is not at Armageddon. Armageddon is the clean up at the end of Satan's 42 months. The clean up should take the place of a "secret" rapture. By that I mean Christ is coming for the final harvest, not just mopping up after 42 months. The main event is not at the end. Move the main event to before the Trumpets and it works out. If you have not been chosen, by the last Trumpet, the 7th Trumpet, you have to have your head cut off. The 7th Trumpet is the end of the Second Coming, not the first Trumpet itself. The Second Coming includes the 6 Trumpets, because they are the time of the final harvest. The final harvest is the years leading up to the 42 months. Armageddon is just the "last stand" of those with the mark and who worship Satan. Christ is not coming back to rescue any at Armageddon. He is here to kill the last of Adam's flesh and blood.

The restoration is not before Satan's time, but a lot of destruction happens years before Satan's 42 months.
The characteristic thing about apocalyptic literature is that events are not necessarily in chronological order. What people forget is that many of the events in Revelation take place in heaven, which is outside of the world's time frame of past, present, and future. In heaven there is no past or future. Everything is in the present. So, we can't guarantee that any of the events are restricted to the future, because most of them are happening all the time throughout the history of mankind. As the Apostle John said, "The spirit of antichrist is already in the world". This blurs the percepts of what the mark of the beast actually is. It may not be some digital "tattoo", but it may more accurately describe those who are reprobate rebels against Christ. Therefore, every sinner who is not born again has the mark of the beast.

Many have tried to interpret the events in the book of Revelation and have failed because they have not caught on to the difference between time and eternity. The reason why John was given the revelation was to encourage the severely persecuted believers of his time under Roman domination and emperor worship, that no matter what will happen to them, Christ will be supremely victorious, and that believers can die only once, and then be resurrected to glory and joy in the Lord. Therefore Revelation is not a book of doctrine, but a revealing of the risen and glorified Christ as overall victor - that believers in Christ will come to a joyful outcome with Christ, and unregenerate sinners will come to a sticky, fiery end along with the devil and his angels.
 
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Timtofly

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The characteristic thing about apocalyptic literature is that events are not necessarily in chronological order. What people forget is that many of the events in Revelation take place in heaven, which is outside of the world's time frame of past, present, and future. In heaven there is no past or future. Everything is in the present. So, we can't guarantee that any of the events are restricted to the future, because most of them are happening all the time throughout the history of mankind. As the Apostle John said, "The spirit of antichrist is already in the world". This blurs the percepts of what the mark of the beast actually is. It may not be some digital "tattoo", but it may more accurately describe those who are reprobate rebels against Christ. Therefore, every sinner who is not born again has the mark of the beast.

Many have tried to interpret the events in the book of Revelation and have failed because they have not caught on to the difference between time and eternity. The reason why John was given the revelation was to encourage the severely persecuted believers of his time under Roman domination and emperor worship, that no matter what will happen to them, Christ will be supremely victorious, and that believers can die only once, and then be resurrected to glory and joy in the Lord. Therefore Revelation is not a book of doctrine, but a revealing of the risen and glorified Christ as overall victor - that believers in Christ will come to a joyful outcome with Christ, and unregenerate sinners will come to a sticky, fiery end along with the devil and his angels.
Can you list 5 things that happen in heaven?
 

Davy

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@Davy



And who is to determine that it is properly aligned but God Himself? You and me in our carnal flesh are too blind to see it...


That of course is nothing but a show of doubt, because Jesus promised His The Holy Spirit Comforter, and that He would show His servants all things. The Word of God written down came through holy men as they were moved by The Holy Spirit according to Apostle Peter, so those who doubt that none can know God's intentions and will for us are only doubting His Word, and show they have not The Holy Spirit as Guide.
 

Davy

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The Second Coming is not at Armageddon. Armageddon is the clean up at the end of Satan's 42 months. The clean up should take the place of a "secret" rapture. By that I mean Christ is coming for the final harvest, not just mopping up after 42 months. The main event is not at the end. Move the main event to before the Trumpets and it works out. If you have not been chosen, by the last Trumpet, the 7th Trumpet, you have to have your head cut off. The 7th Trumpet is the end of the Second Coming, not the first Trumpet itself. The Second Coming includes the 6 Trumpets, because they are the time of the final harvest. The final harvest is the years leading up to the 42 months. Armageddon is just the "last stand" of those with the mark and who worship Satan. Christ is not coming back to rescue any at Armageddon. He is here to kill the last of Adam's flesh and blood.

The restoration is not before Satan's time, but a lot of destruction happens years before Satan's 42 months.

The 2nd and only... coming of Lord Jesus back to this earth to gather His Church includes the timing of the battle of Armageddon on the 7th Vial.

The 7th Vial is poured out into the "air", not on the earth. That should be considered carefully as to why it's poured out into the "air"...

Rev 16:17-21
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."


18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
KJV


That is the "sudden destruction" Apostle Paul taught of on the "day of the Lord" per 1 Thess.5.

That is the battle of Zech.14 on the "day of the Lord" with Jesus' return to the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, with His saints.

That is the day of God's consuming fire upon the earth that will end this present world, per Peter in 2 Peter 3:10.

That is the "day of Christ" that Paul pointed to with Christ's coming and gathering of His Church.

That is the LAST DAY when Jesus promised to resurrect all His.

That is the day when Christ descends from Heaven, bringing the asleep resurrected saints with Him, and catching up His saints still alive on earth.

That is the day when the wicked and deceived will wish for the hills and mountains to fall on them because of seeing Christ coming in the clouds, and they appear in shame.

That is the day when the northern armies coming out of the northern quarters of Gog/Magog are destroyed by God's consuming fire and those hailstones weighing from 70-120 lbs.

That is the day when Christ's future Millennium temple of Ezekiel 40 thru 47 will be established here on earth, God's River returned to this earth.

That is the day when ALL... peoples will have their flesh bodies cast off, with their "spiritual body" revealed, even those of the "resurrection of damnation" of John 5:28-29.

That is the first day of Christ's future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20 with His elect saints.
 

Davy

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The characteristic thing about apocalyptic literature is that events are not necessarily in chronological order. What people forget is that many of the events in Revelation take place in heaven, which is outside of the world's time frame of past, present, and future. In heaven there is no past or future. Everything is in the present. So, we can't guarantee that any of the events are restricted to the future, because most of them are happening all the time throughout the history of mankind. As the Apostle John said, "The spirit of antichrist is already in the world". This blurs the percepts of what the mark of the beast actually is. It may not be some digital "tattoo", but it may more accurately describe those who are reprobate rebels against Christ. Therefore, every sinner who is not born again has the mark of the beast.

That is man's philosophy, even from those whom God did not call. That's why even events given regarding the heavenly is a mystery to them. Even the events regarding the heavenly have a certain timeline they hold to per God's Word. Those who don't know that show they need more Bible study and ask our Heavenly Father to open it up to their understanding.


Many have tried to interpret the events in the book of Revelation and have failed because they have not caught on to the difference between time and eternity. The reason why John was given the revelation was to encourage the severely persecuted believers of his time under Roman domination and emperor worship, that no matter what will happen to them, Christ will be supremely victorious, and that believers can die only once, and then be resurrected to glory and joy in the Lord. Therefore Revelation is not a book of doctrine, but a revealing of the risen and glorified Christ as overall victor - that believers in Christ will come to a joyful outcome with Christ, and unregenerate sinners will come to a sticky, fiery end along with the devil and his angels.

That's really just an excuse not to discipline oneself in all of God's Word, which is what is required to understand Lord Jesus' Book of Revelation, along with asking The Father through Jesus for it. Because of how today's public education systems have crippled many people's thinking, they rely on men they think are educated to show them. It must always start with The Father and His Son first. One can be a student of the most Biblically learned man on the planet, and if God does not give one "ears to hear, and eyes to see", then they won't understand it.

The way God gives us understanding in His Word is by asking Him for it, and by how Apostle Paul told Timothy to discipline himself in it...

2 Tim 2:15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
KJV


We show ourselves approved unto God by study in His Word??? Yes! Absolutely!

We are to become a "workman" in His Word. That means a working knowledge in His Word.

We are to rightly divide it. That means note the timelines given in it by the events. There will always be more than one Bible witness for a timeline event.
 

amadeus

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That of course is nothing but a show of doubt, because Jesus promised His The Holy Spirit Comforter, and that He would show His servants all things. The Word of God written down came through holy men as they were moved by The Holy Spirit according to Apostle Peter, so those who doubt that none can know God's intentions and will for us are only doubting His Word, and show they have not The Holy Spirit as Guide.
And who among us now already has a clearer vision than the Apostle Paul when God inspired him to write these words?

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

Did not Paul refer to himself also in the "we" and the "I"?

We, all of us need to grow and we need to have our vision improved, do we not?

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25

If a man who has the Holy Spirit regularly quenches the Holy Spirit, who then is his guide?
 
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Paul Christensen

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That is man's philosophy, even from those whom God did not call. That's why even events given regarding the heavenly is a mystery to them. Even the events regarding the heavenly have a certain timeline they hold to per God's Word. Those who don't know that show they need more Bible study and ask our Heavenly Father to open it up to their understanding.




That's really just an excuse not to discipline oneself in all of God's Word, which is what is required to understand Lord Jesus' Book of Revelation, along with asking The Father through Jesus for it. Because of how today's public education systems have crippled many people's thinking, they rely on men they think are educated to show them. It must always start with The Father and His Son first. One can be a student of the most Biblically learned man on the planet, and if God does not give one "ears to hear, and eyes to see", then they won't understand it.

The way God gives us understanding in His Word is by asking Him for it, and by how Apostle Paul told Timothy to discipline himself in it...

2 Tim 2:15
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
KJV


We show ourselves approved unto God by study in His Word??? Yes! Absolutely!

We are to become a "workman" in His Word. That means a working knowledge in His Word.

We are to rightly divide it. That means note the timelines given in it by the events. There will always be more than one Bible witness for a timeline event.
The problem with modern interpretation of the book of Revelation is that it was written for a First Century readership who were under intense persecution from emperor-worshiping pagan Romans. Plain language couldn't be used because it would have been suicide to do so. Therefore apocalyptic language was used which would have been a mystery to the pagans, but not to the Christian believers who knew the keys for interpreting the symbolic terminology.

2,000 years later, the keys to the terminology code have been lost and to be able to interpret the book, for modern scholars, involves much guesswork. That is why there are scores of different interpretations for the symbolism. Each generation has made interpretation to try and show that the second coming of Christ is going to happen in their time, and some have attempted to put a date on it. The JWs did that, and as each date came and went, they had to revise their dating of the Second Coming, proving that their reckoning was nonsense.

We had a speaker come to our church in the 1970s saying that Henry Kissinger could be the AntiChrist. It was also significant that the post-trib theology of the speaker resulted in many of our young people being terrified of the Tribulation and needed intensive counselling. That, to me, was the fruit of that man's ministry. I concluded that the man's teaching was based on pure guesswork, and rejected it. Actually, the 1970s were a time when End Time teaching was all the rage and many preachers got on the bandwagon. Most of the teaching was nonsense, of course, suited more to the itching ears of the over-curious. Several movies were made depicting what things could be like when the Tribulation happened and the AntiChrist takes power. They were more like End-Time horror movies to scare people into getting religion.
 

Davy

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And who among us now already has a clearer vision than the Apostle Paul when God inspired him to write these words?

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

Did not Paul refer to himself also in the "we" and the "I"?

We, all of us need to grow and we need to have our vision improved, do we not?

"And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man." Luke 2:52

"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25

If a man who has the Holy Spirit regularly quenches the Holy Spirit, who then is his guide?

Who among us has a clearer vision than Apostle Paul about the endtimes? Our LORD Jesus Christ, that is Who.

No wonder someone goes into confusion and doubt as to what God's Word teaches when they heed all sorts of doctrines of men instead of staying in the simplicity that is God's Word. Metaphors, allegory, parable, idiom, etc., aren't that difficult in God's Word either, because all languages use those things to get a point across. And there's always at least one or more Bible witness for a matter, which is why study in all of God's written Word is important. But of course, that study with understanding won't happen until one asks our Heavenly Father for it first, through His Son.
 

Davy

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The problem with modern interpretation of the book of Revelation is that it was written for a First Century readership who were under intense persecution from emperor-worshiping pagan Romans. ...

There you go again trying to apply men's philosophy on literature limitations to God's Holy Writ.

God well knows how to get around all that, as His Word has Holy Spirit markings that no other known literature of man has.

As for who Christ's Book of Revelation was written for, only those who believe on The Father through His Son Jesus Christ will know.
 

amadeus

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Who among us has a clearer vision than Apostle Paul about the endtimes? Our LORD Jesus Christ, that is Who.

Indeed, but neither you nor I is Jesus. Our vision is based on faith, which is ... "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Only when we have arrived at the "face to face" vision which the hope consist of evidence seen clearly, no longer through a glass darkly.

Be careful about claiming to have something that you do not have.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2


No wonder someone goes into confusion and doubt as to what God's Word teaches when they heed all sorts of doctrines of men instead of staying in the simplicity that is God's Word. Metaphors, allegory, parable, idiom, etc., aren't that difficult in God's Word either, because all languages use those things to get a point across. And there's always at least one or more Bible witness for a matter, which is why study in all of God's written Word is important. But of course, that study with understanding won't happen until one asks our Heavenly Father for it first, through His Son.
Study alone will get us to a weariness of the flesh.

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

Study of the scriptures without the Holy Spirit is little better than study of the Encyclopedia Britannica!

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26
 
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Davy

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Indeed, but neither you nor I is Jesus. ...


There we go back to my previous answer, that Jesus promised His servants The Holy Spirit Comforter, and He would show us all things...

1 John 2:20
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
KJV

John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
KJV


The only thing that can get in the way of that process is IF... we choose to listen to man and the world instead.
 

amadeus

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There we go back to my previous answer, that Jesus promised His servants The Holy Spirit Comforter, and He would show us all things...

1 John 2:20
20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
KJV

John 14:26
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
KJV


The only thing that can get in the way of that process is IF... we choose to listen to man and the world instead.
Well you the man have decided! Who am I to change you?

"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:6-7
 
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Davy

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Well you the man have decided! Who am I to change you?

"I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:6-7

I have decided that those in Christ like myself can... come to know God's Will for us through His Word, and even about the events to occur leading up to Christ's 2nd coming? Yes, of course I have decided, and it's easy, for He shows those of His that listen to Him in His Word and not man's word.
 

amadeus

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I have decided that those in Christ like myself can... come to know God's Will for us through His Word, and even about the events to occur leading up to Christ's 2nd coming? Yes, of course I have decided, and it's easy, for He shows those of His that listen to Him in His Word and not man's word.
I guess there is nothing to discuss. Why even put it on a discussion forum instead of a blog?
Give God the glory!
 

Davy

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You really don't know? How long have you been serving God and visiting Christian forums?

So your self-pride has been hurt huh? And now you have to resort to some kind of stupid idiotic slur, just because I called your great big full of words bluff about Bible Scripture. Go on, God is watching, dig yourself deeper in a hole.