Is pre-tribulation rapture a doctrine of demons?

Mantis said:

I am really starting to wonder if the pre-tribulation rapture is a doctrine of demons. It sounds wonderful but in reality I think it is a stretch to conclude that there will be a pre-trib rapture from scripture. Yet it is taught with confidence that it is truth. If it is a false teaching that Timothy warns about, many people will be devastated when they are not raptured before the poop hits the fan. I am not worried as I am sure God will protect us but if I spend my days attending a church that teaches this am I just itching my ears? I want truth, I can handle the truth.

Click to expand...

1. If a person has a relationship with Jesus, IF (for those who reject pre-trib) the rapture does not occur pre trib, people will be disappointed, but pick up and move on. It is the Lord who gives strength, not believing in a timeframe for the rapture.

2. the Bible has no specific statement as to when the rapture will occur, in that it will occur before the 70th week of Daniel, during the 70th week of Daniel or right before the Lords return.

3. by knowing the reason for the tribulation, and the names the bible gives to the tribulation, we can know with great certainty that the rapture has to happen before the tribulation.

Billy Evmur said:

Paul gives the order of events

Ist comes the great rebellion
then the man of rebellion is revealed
then he sets himself against everything god and all objects of worship
then he makes his claim that he is himself God
then the Lord descends from heaven with a shout and destroys him.

When the man of sin sets himself against everything called god this denotes an attempt to stamp out all religion, it is the great end-time persecution or the great tribulation.

Click to expand...

Yes that is the second half of Daniels' 70th week which Jesus called teh great tribulation. Technically, the great tribulation is not all 7 years, but the last 3 1/2 years, though colloquially many call the whole last 7 years ans the Great Tribulation.

Mantis said:

I am really starting to wonder if the pre-tribulation rapture is a doctrine of demons. It sounds wonderful but in reality I think it is a stretch to conclude that there will be a pre-trib rapture from scripture. Yet it is taught with confidence that it is truth. If it is a false teaching that Timothy warns about, many people will be devastated when they are not raptured before the poop hits the fan. I am not worried as I am sure God will protect us but if I spend my days attending a church that teaches this am I just itching my ears? I want truth, I can handle the truth.

Click to expand...

Pre trib rapture is the truth.

No Christian would even want to go near the wrath of God on earth per Rev 6 alone.

Talk is cheap.

Folks better beg God to take them before the Great Tribulation, or they would mostly backslide and take the mark.

Truther said:

No Christian would even want to go near the wrath of God on earth per Rev 6 alone.

Talk is cheap.

Folks better beg God to take them before the Great Tribulation, or they would mostly backslide and take the mark.

Click to expand...

I see you're your normal cheerful self... LOL .... Happy New Year.

Michiah-Imla said:

The Pre-Tribulation teaching is so obviously a false teaching that it never ceases to amaze me how many believe this stuff.

These other false teachings prevail a lot as well:

• Once Saved Always Saved/Eternal Security.
• Loss of rewards for sins.
• Believers Continue to Sin.
• Women Pastors/Leaders.
• Immediate Appearance In heaven upon death.
• Tithing Still Mandated.

Click to expand...

If nearly everyone dies as spoken in the Tribulation(as the days must be shortened), will Christians have a divine force field around them to shield them from the wrath of almighty God?

Who shall be able to stand?

Adoration said:

I see you're your normal cheerful self... LOL .... Happy New Year.

Click to expand...

Hahaha...happy new year to you also my friend.

Truther said:

If nearly everyone dies as spoken in the Tribulation(as the days must be shortened), will Christians have a divine force field around them to shield them from the wrath of almighty God?

Who shall be able to stand?

Click to expand...

Christians will be taken up from the earth at a blink of the eye to meet the Lord in air at the last trumpet before the wrath of God is poured out (1 Corinthians 15:52; Revelation 11:15; Revelation 14:15; Revelation 15:1-2),

Ronald Nolette said:

1. If a person has a relationship with Jesus, IF (for those who reject pre-trib) the rapture does not occur pre trib, people will be disappointed, but pick up and move on. It is the Lord who gives strength, not believing in a timeframe for the rapture.

Click to expand...

I wish you'd study your Bible more, especially the Signs of the end that our Lord Jesus gave us, so you will not be deceived in our near future by the coming pseudo-Christ. That deception is the main danger for the end we are to be watching against, and not fall away to. So things are more serious than just picking up and moving on if a rapture prior to the trib doesn't happen.

2. the Bible has no specific statement as to when the rapture will occur, in that it will occur before the 70th week of Daniel, during the 70th week of Daniel or right before the Lords return.

Click to expand...

You're wrong. In Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Lord Jesus gave the 'specific' timing of His coming and gathering of His saints in relation to the "great tribulation". So He did give the SPECIFIC time via a direct statement.

3. by knowing the reason for the tribulation, and the names the bible gives to the tribulation, we can know with great certainty that the rapture has to happen before the tribulation.

Click to expand...

That certainly is a wild statement, and has no bearing whatsoever in God's written Word. No label for the tribulation at the end of this world gives the timing of Christ's return to gather His Church. Only the event specifically declared by Lord Jesus, as I pointed to above, and by His Apostles, like Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9, show the time of Christ's coming and gathering of His saints. Metaphorical statements like He said He will come "as a thief" also define the timing of His coming to gather His saints (Revelation 16:15-17; 2 Peter 3:10).

Billy Evmur said:

Noah also experience persecution during the building of the ark and this tribulation must have intensified toward the end.

Click to expand...

Welcome to the forums Billy

Michiah-Imla said:

Christians will be taken up from the earth at a blink of the eye to meet the Lord in air at the last trumpet before the wrath of God is poured out (1 Corinthians 15:52; Revelation 11:15; Revelation 14:15; Revelation 15:1-2),

Click to expand...

They will be taken up before any of the wrath of God is poured out on mankind.

Ronald Nolette said:

1. If a person has a relationship with Jesus, IF (for those who reject pre-trib) the rapture does not occur pre trib, people will be disappointed, but pick up and move on. It is the Lord who gives strength, not believing in a timeframe for the rapture.

2. the Bible has no specific statement as to when the rapture will occur, in that it will occur before the 70th week of Daniel, during the 70th week of Daniel or right before the Lords return.

3. by knowing the reason for the tribulation, and the names the bible gives to the tribulation, we can know with great certainty that the rapture has to happen before the tribulation.

Click to expand...

Hello brother Ron!
"1. If a person has a relationship with Jesus, IF (for those who reject pre-trib) the rapture does not occur pre trib, people will be disappointed, but pick up and move on. It is the Lord who gives strength, not believing in a timeframe for the rapture."

What you say here has caught my eye because, if a Christian is putting so much hope in the re-Trib Rapture, being so totally "certain" that it is the only truth out there concerning the issue then, It might not be so easy to "Pick up and move on."
They believed AND taught this doctrine as Truth. And some even say that if you do not BELEIVE IN this "timing type" doctrine that, we are not saved and left behind for the "vultures"...if read thoroughly, one will find this doctrine is backwards IMHO.

"It is the Lord who gives strength, not believing in a timeframe for the rapture."

Amen and agreed.

Nancy said:

Welcome to the forums Billy

Click to expand...

yo ... nice to meet you

Ronald Nolette said:

Yes that is the second half of Daniels' 70th week which Jesus called teh great tribulation. Technically, the great tribulation is not all 7 years, but the last 3 1/2 years, though colloquially many call the whole last 7 years ans the Great Tribulation.

Click to expand...

For the elect the 7 years will be cut short to 3 1/2 years [by means of Antichrist invading Israel]

Truther said:

They will be taken up before any of the wrath of God is poured out on mankind.

Click to expand...

We are says Paul saved from the wrath of God...

.... but through great tribulation. says he. must we enter the kingdom.

Jesus tells us that tribulation comes from the world.

Truther said:

They will be taken up before any of the wrath of God is poured out on mankind.

Click to expand...

Correct. Wrath is reserved for (a) the unbelieving, (b) the ungodly, (c) the unrighteous, (d) the wicked, and (e) all the enemies of God, Christ, and Christians.

Both the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation (spreading over the better part of seven years) are expressions of God's wrath. The sixth and seventh seal judgments correspond to this time period. But the first 3 1/2 years also include the wrath of Satan against the people of God. And just as God saved Noah and Lot from His wrath, and translated Enoch before the Flood, Christ will come for His saints at the Resurrection/Rapture and remove them from the earth so that the Restrainer of Satan (the Holy Spirit) is "taken out of the way".

It is only then that God will pour out His judgments upon the earth. It is interesting to note that even the 144,000 believing Jews will be sealed and raptured during the Tribulation. And the two witnesses (Moses & Elijah) will be killed by the Antichrist at the end of 3 1/2 years, but resurrected and raptured immediately.

Randy Kluth said:

I'll add this. I've in the past written letters to Oral Roberts, Zola Levitt and other notables who were blatantly Pretrib. I tried to answer every claim they made from Scriptures--every one! Levitt had an associate write me on the subject, and he suggested I read Dwight Pentecost's book on the subject--a large, theological work that undoubtedly reiterates all the same Pretrib materials, because he undoubtedly reiterates Darby's beliefs and provided justification for more of the current Pretrib arguments.

I've literally tried to argue every single point made on the subject, and would love to answer every single possible argument that Pretribbers would make. The trouble is, arguments never get resolved by arguing alone. There has to be *revelation received,* along with the arguments. Reason must be coupled with a right spirit--one willing to receive what God has to say, and not necessarily what we want to believe.

When the Scriptures state in 2 Thes 2 that Jesus can't come for his Church until after the revelation--and destruction--of the Antichrist, we must have receptive spirits, and believe what is being reasonably communicated. But if we choose not to be receptive, we will always make justification for what we want to believe.

You can never get a Pretribber to give up his belief for any number of reasonable arguments if he doesn't want to believe, or if he has a stake in not believing it. May God give us all humble spirits, and obedient spirits, to incline not to our own wishes, but only to what God wishes!

We may not want to believe that Satan defeats us, or that Antichrist is given by God to defeat the saints. But quite frankly, that is what Revelation teaches, that for short duration, the Antichrist will be given to defeat the Church--not spiritually, but physically. Many of us will be martyred.

So you can see why Christians don't want to believe this. Right?

Click to expand...

I read 2 Thessalonians 2, and I don't see that Paul said that Christ cannot come for His church until the AntiChrist has been dealt with. He talks about the Day of the Lord, which is the second coming of Christ. But he mentions nothing about the church at all. To build a post-trib doctrine on 2 Thessalonians 2 is very risky and to use it to say that pre-trib is a doctrine of the devil is just pure nonsense.

Nothing in 2 Thessalonians 2 contradicts 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. Actually, Paul did not write the 1 Thessalonians passage to establish a particular doctrine of when Christ will come for His church. If we read all of the chapter carefully (consistency, thou art a jewel!!) Paul wrote the description because some of the Thessalonian believers were apprehensive about what would happen to those who died before the coming of the Lord. In those days, the second coming of the Lord was expected in their lifetimes, and some were afraid that those who had already died were going to miss out in some way. That is why Paul assured them that when the Lord descends from heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel, the dead in Christ will rise first, before those who are alive.

There is a difficult inference for post-trib people. Paul says that the dead in Christ will rise first. In fact there will be two resurrections of the dead. Those in Christ to be forever with the Lord, and those outside of Christ who will rise to face the Judgment and a Christless eternity. But Paul does not mention the resurrection of the Christless dead when the Lord will descend from heaven. He says only the dead in Christ will rise out of their graves. So, when will the Christless dead be resurrected? Paul does not say that both resurrections are going to happen at the same time.

So, when will the marriage supper of the Lamb take place, and when will those in Christ appear before the judgment seat of Christ to receive their rewards and crowns? And who are those who will be with Christ when He comes physically to the world to deal with the AntiChrist and rescue Israel, and then set up His thousand year millennial reign?

These are questions that need to be fully answered before any substantive pre- or post-trib doctrine is secured, and before either side accuses the other of false doctrine.

As for me, in a few years time, none of it will make any difference because I will be in the grave awaiting the resurrection of those in Christ whenever that is going to happen.

Enoch111 said:

Correct. Wrath is reserved for (a) the unbelieving, (b) the ungodly, (c) the unrighteous, (d) the wicked, and (e) all the enemies of God, Christ, and Christians.

Both the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation (spreading over the better part of seven years) are expressions of God's wrath. The sixth and seventh seal judgments correspond to this time period. But the first 3 1/2 years also include the wrath of Satan against the people of God. And just as God saved Noah and Lot from His wrath, and translated Enoch before the Flood, Christ will come for His saints at the Resurrection/Rapture and remove them from the earth so that the Restrainer of Satan (the Holy Spirit) is "taken out of the way".

It is only then that God will pour out His judgments upon the earth. It is interesting to note that even the 144,000 believing Jews will be sealed and raptured during the Tribulation. And the two witnesses (Moses & Elijah) will be killed by the Antichrist at the end of 3 1/2 years, but resurrected and raptured immediately.

Click to expand...

not saying that you are right or wrong, but consider this, God will not destroy the earth again with water, but FIRE. and we have a good example of this in the bible. the fiery furnace. what happen? the three Hebrew boys Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego was bound and cast into the fiery furnace. but what happen? Daniel 3:27 "And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them."
what happen? just as it will be in the coming wrath. our Lord did not rapture them out of the fire, but delievered them from the fire, from within fire. what do I mean. scripture, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:". the resurrection change us, from mortal to immortal. and if we're change, what need to remove us? for just as the fire had no affect on the bound Hebrews boys, nor will nature fire have any affect on a change to a IMMORTAL BODY. Just as the flood was the instrument of Salvation, the same instrument was their salvation, likewise the instrument of their salvation, the fire, was the instrutment of God's destruction on the wicket. scripture, Daniel 3:22 "Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego."Daniel 3:23 "And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.". but was "RAISE" up by Christ himself, Daniel 3:24 "Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king."Daniel 3:25 "He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God."

so when the warth comes, as the parable of the sower states, Matthew 13:30 "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

so those who go first,is bound just as the Hebrew boys was, and the wicked/evil tares persons, are BURNED, but the wheat/righteous have no hurt, or as 1 Thessalonians 1:10 states, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." why? 1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Paul Christensen said:

I read 2 Thessalonians 2, and I don't see that Paul said that Christ cannot come for His church until the AntiChrist has been dealt with. He talks about the Day of the Lord, which is the second coming of Christ. But he mentions nothing about the church at all. To build a post-trib doctrine on 2 Thessalonians 2 is very risky and to use it to say that pre-trib is a doctrine of the devil is just pure nonsense.

Nothing in 2 Thessalonians 2 contradicts 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. Actually, Paul did not write the 1 Thessalonians passage to establish a particular doctrine of when Christ will come for His church. If we read all of the chapter carefully (consistency, thou art a jewel!!) Paul wrote the description because some of the Thessalonian believers were apprehensive about what would happen to those who died before the coming of the Lord. In those days, the second coming of the Lord was expected in their lifetimes, and some were afraid that those who had already died were going to miss out in some way. That is why Paul assured them that when the Lord descends from heaven with a shout and the voice of the archangel, the dead in Christ will rise first, before those who are alive.

There is a difficult inference for post-trib people. Paul says that the dead in Christ will rise first. In fact there will be two resurrections of the dead. Those in Christ to be forever with the Lord, and those outside of Christ who will rise to face the Judgment and a Christless eternity. But Paul does not mention the resurrection of the Christless dead when the Lord will descend from heaven. He says only the dead in Christ will rise out of their graves. So, when will the Christless dead be resurrected? Paul does not say that both resurrections are going to happen at the same time.

So, when will the marriage supper of the Lamb take place, and when will those in Christ appear before the judgment seat of Christ to receive their rewards and crowns? And who are those who will be with Christ when He comes physically to the world to deal with the AntiChrist and rescue Israel, and then set up His thousand year millennial reign?

These are questions that need to be fully answered before any substantive pre- or post-trib doctrine is secured, and before either side accuses the other of false doctrine.

As for me, in a few years time, none of it will make any difference because I will be in the grave awaiting the resurrection of those in Christ whenever that is going to happen.

Click to expand...

I'm getting old too, but let's not worry about anything. God loves us simply because we love His Son--not because we hold to a particular eschatology. Most of my Christian friends are Pretrib--I just feel compelled to share what I know. You don't have to believe it--I just have to say it.

So I'll answer your questions. I've answered them many times before--at least since the 70s. I'll try to answer your points in order.
1) You say Paul doesn't reference the Church at all in 2 Thes 2. How ridiculous is that?

2 Thes 2.Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

In bold above, the following points are made.
a. The Church is being gathered to Jesus at his coming.
b. The Church cannot be gathered on the day of Jesus' Coming until after the Antichrist is revealed.
c. The Church cannot be gathered on the day of Jesus' Coming until the Antichrist is destroyed.

2) Postribbers do not base their argument on any supposed contradiction between 1 Thes 4 and 2 Thes 2--they refer to the same event, the day of Jesus' Coming for the Church, which must be preceded by the defeat of the Antichrist.

3) Yes, Christians were concerned about what would happen to the dead saints when Jesus appears with his Kingdom. This in no way means that Paul would omit mention of the fact Antichrist murders Christians before that day. Indeed, Paul meets their concerns by ensuring, in 1 Thes 4, that the dead saints would join the living saints in a simultaneous transformation into immortality on that day.

4) I have no idea whether Christians in Paul's day normally expected Christ to come in their lifetime. We know that Jesus expected this, and made anticipation of *when* he will return something *not* to do. Preparation is by living a godly life--not by expectation of *when* it will take place.

So a claim that Christians generally had an imminent expectation is not really Christian. They knew that the need for preparation was immediate, but knowing *when* it would happen was not to be our attitude. Paul was indeed dealing with false Christian expectation in 2 Thes 2, and assured them that Christ's Kingdom was not yet arriving because Antichrist had yet to appear and be destroyed.

We are to expect opposition, and sometimes even martyrdom, before Christ returns. We are to "endure to the end." That is the purpose of these exhortations.

5) The marriage supper takes place after the coming of Christ, and after his defeat of Antichrist. The rewards take place at that time, when the Kingdom comes.

The judgment of the wicked is evident in the destruction of Antichrist, and his place in the Lake of Fire. Judgment for the wicked at the end of the Millennium judges mankind in the Millennium. Those in the present age will be judged at Jesus' 2nd Coming.

Those who come back with Jesus at his 2nd Coming are those who will be resuscitated, together, with the living saints, and in a second of time receive glorified bodies. As such, they are caught up to Jesus together to participate immediately in his return on that day. The Church will receive dominion on earth in Jesus' Kingdom, when he establishes it upon the earth on that day.

In Revelation 3:10 we find that those who are overcomers in Philadelphia, who keep the word of Jesus' patience, will be kept from the hour of trial that will come upon the whole earth.

This would indicate a pre-tribulation rapture for at least this people group; unless the Philadelphia spirit dies out when Laodicea comes in; in which case those of Philadelphia would simply pass on before all of the events in the book of Revelation begin to unfold.

justbyfaith said:

In Revelation 3:10 we find that those who are overcomers in Philadelphia, who keep the word of Jesus' patience, will be kept from the hour of trial that will come upon the whole earth.

This would indicate a pre-tribulation rapture for at least this people group; unless the Philadelphia spirit dies out when Laodicea comes in; in which case those of Philadelphia would simply pass on before all of the events in the book of Revelation begin to unfold.

Click to expand...

Pretribbers believe this, but the facts do not indicate this. These were 7 historic churches in Asia Minor in the time of the Apostle John. We *know* this to be true. So the believers in the church at Philadelphia *were not Raptured.*

We know this to be true. That they escaped from a particularly bad time in their region of the world we also know to be true. Their escape, however, was not by Rapture! They simply escaped a particular trial that others had to go through.

In the same way Christian Jews were able to escape the 70 AD judgment God visited upon Israel for their sins. Christians were given to escape this because God's wrath was not being poured out upon them.

And yet, in other cases, Christians did have to suffer a variety of trials. There is no question about this. Jesus suffered on the cross. And Christians likewise bear their own crosses, as God sees fit.