How Could Have Satan Sinned?

quietthinker said:

we could extend this conversation considerably DNB but I don't see any progress doing so.

I notice that your justification for the three points I made hinge on highlighting punishment. I would ask respectfully that a look into the meaning of God's justice is a worthwhile exercise.

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Agreed, major digression that requires an entire thread of its own.
Thanks!

keithr said:

All Christians make a covenant of sacrifice (Psalms 50:5 - “Gather my saints together to me, those who have made a covenant with me by sacrifice”; Romans 12:1 - "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service"). Having been redeemed Christians could live forever as humans, but just as Jesus sacrificed his human life (and did not continue living as a human) so must Christians. Having committed to sacrificing our human bodies, we cannot then be resurrected as human again.

Romans 6:3-5 says, "don’t you know that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will also be part of his resurrection". Therefore all christians will be resurrected as spirit beings, confirmed also by John:

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." (1 John 3:2)


There is more than one tribal listing, as there were 14 members. Numbers 1 lists those able to go to war, i.e. excluding the Levites:

21) Reuben
22) Simeon
24) Gad
26) Judah
28) Issachar
30) Zebulun
32) Joseph, namely, of the children of Ephraim
34) Manasseh
36) Benjamin
38) Dan
40) Asher
42) Naphtali

Sometimes Ephraim and Manasseh, Joseph's two sons, are listed, or sometimes they're include with Joseph. I'm not sure there is a "usual" tribal listing.

The Rev 7 list excludes Dan and Ephraim, but Ephraim is included under Joseph. Manasseh is listed seperately because Dan is excluded. This is most likely because "The children of Dan set up for themselves the engraved image" (Judges 18:30) and "Cursed is the man who makes an engraved or molten image, an abomination to Yahweh" (Deuteronomy 27:15).


The passage is part of a description of things happening on the earth. John doesn't say that he was back in heaven again in his vision, so you have to assume that he is on the earth and seeing things happening there. He said, "I heard a sound from heaven" (Rev 14:2), or "I heard a voice out of the heaven"(Darby), therefore he was describing a scene on the earth. The Hebrew is "phone" and "ek", which translates to "voice or sound" "from or out of". Strong's Concordance for ek says:

a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; prep;

1) out of, from, by, away from​

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I disagree that, "the redeemed Christians could live forever as humans," that's not true. It's true that because they're the chosen or elect meaning they're the 144000 they sacrifice there human lives and will no more be humans after their resurrection because when resurrected from the dead they will have the same resurrection as Jesus who was not resurrected human but who was resurrected a immortal and incorruptible spiritual being which means so will all those who are of the 144000.
The scriptures show us that the anointed or elect are Jesus brothers at Hebrew 2:9-3:1; it is shown in 1Thessalonians 4:13-17 there are those of the anointed who are resurrected from the dead at the time of Jesus second prescence and that there are those of the anointed still alive at the time of Jesus second presence who will be resurrected during Jesus second presence. The scriptures show all Christians are sheep but in Matthew 25:31-46 this Scripture shows us that there is a distinction made here between Jesus brothers and the sheep although Jesus brothers are sheep too. The sheep in these scriptures, that help Jesus brothers, are the ones who will be the subjects of that kingdom that Jesus and his brothers will rule over. The time of this judging by Jesus of the sheep and the goats
will occur toward the end of the great tribulation which is in the future, even though today we're in the second presence of Jesus Christ so like I said there is some remaining ones of the 144000 on earth today. What is the reason why people will be judged as either sheep or goats? The outcome hinges on how they have treated the remaining 144000 who are Christ’s spirit-anointed brothers on earth.

keithr said:

I heard a sound from heaven, like the sound of many waters, and like the sound of a great thunder. The sound which I heard was like that of harpists playing on their harps.
They sing a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the one hundred forty-four thousand, those who had been redeemed out of the earth.​

They are still on the earth (Mount Zion), when they hear a sound from heaven, a sound like harpists playing ("the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one having a harp" - Rev 5:8), which is the resurrected church worshiping God with a new song. It then says that no one (on earth) could learn that new song except the 144,000.

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Whoops, it looks like I got that wrong! It doesn't say that the elders (church) sang the song (because it says "they sing ... before the ... elders"), it's the 144,000 only that sings the song, while the elders (church) played the music.

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

I disagree that, "the redeemed Christians could live forever as humans," that's not true. It's true that because they're the chosen or elect meaning they're the 144000 they sacrifice there human lives and will no more be humans after their resurrection because when resurrected from the dead they will have the same resurrection as Jesus who was not resurrected human but who was resurrected a immortal and incorruptible spiritual being which means so will all those who are of the 144000.

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There have been more than 144,000 baptised Christians during the last 1990 years. You seem to be implying that only 144,000 of the millions (or billions) of Christians "will also be part of his resurrection" (Rom 6:5), and the majority will be resurrected as humans, but Romans 6:3-5 says that all Christians will have a similar resurrection to Jesus'. Your interpretation is clearly going against what Paul taught. I trust and believe what it says in God's written word.

You say you don't believe that redeemed Christians could live forever as humans, and yet you later imply that the majority of Christians will be resurrected as humans and live forever as humans - err, that's contradicting yourself! When we become a Christian, from that moment we have been redeemed (our right to eternal life bought back) and therefore we could potentially live forever, just as Jesus, as a perfect and sinless human, could have lived forever as a human. But in God's plan Christians are not simply redeemed to live continually as humans, but they are chosen to become part of a new creation, and to be changed to be like how Jesus now is, and that applies to all true Christians.

it is shown in 1Thessalonians 4:13-17 there are those of the anointed who are resurrected from the dead at the time of Jesus second prescence and that there are those of the anointed still alive at the time of Jesus second presence who will be resurrected during Jesus second presence.

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Jesus has been present with the church for nearly 2,000 years (Mat 28:20 - "Behold, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."). Although the Greek word translated as "coming" is parousia, which could be translated as presence, clearly in this case translating it with its alternative meaning of coming or arrival is more appropriate. This is because the context declares "the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet", so it is a specific sudden event, a descending rather than a continual presence. Consider other uses of the word too, such as Philippians 1:

26) so that your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming [parousia] to you again.
27) Only let your conduct be as becomes the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come [erchomai] and see you, or else am absent, I may hear of your affairs, ...

So parousia shouldn't always be translated as presence. Otherwise I agree that at Jesus' return to gather his church, many will have been dead and some will be alive. Jesus promised he would return for them (John 14):

2) In my Father’s house are many homes [not just 144,000!]. If it weren’t so, I would have told you. I am going to prepare a place for you.
3) If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to myself; that where I am, you may be there also.

The scriptures show all Christians are sheep but in Matthew 25:31-46 this Scripture shows us that there is a distinction made here between Jesus brothers and the sheep although Jesus brothers are sheep too. The sheep in these scriptures, that help Jesus brothers, are the ones who will be the subjects of that kingdom that Jesus and his brothers will rule over. The time of this judging by Jesus of the sheep and the goats
will occur toward the end of the great tribulation which is in the future, even though today we're in the second presence of Jesus Christ so like I said there is some remaining ones of the 144000 on earth today. What is the reason why people will be judged as either sheep or goats? The outcome hinges on how they have treated the remaining 144000 who are Christ’s spirit-anointed brothers on earth.

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This passage is a description of the final judgement of "all the nations", at the end of the Millennial Age (when the final judgement of who is worthy of eternal life or eternal death is made). It's not describing a judgement at the beginning of the Millennial Age, after the great tribulation. During the Millenial Age everyone will have a knowledge of Jesus and God. The sheep are symbolic of all the "righteous" who are worthy of eternal life. There is no distinction between Jesus' brothers and people who are not Jesus' brothers. It simply refers to those judged as righteous as sheep, and those who are not as goats. The 144,000 Jewish servants are sealed well before this judgement takes place - around a 1,000 years before!

Rev 7:9-14 tells us that there will be a great multitude of people who will go to heaven, who are “those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb’s blood". These are those who come to faith as a result of the evangelising by the 144,000 Jews during the great tribulation, but because they missed the acceptable time of sacrifice (For He says, "In an acceptable time I heard you, and in a day of salvation, I helped you;" Behold, now is the accepted time. Behold, now is the day of salvation." - 2Cor 6:2), which ended at the rapture, instead of sitting on thrones, as kings and priests with Jesus, they instead will be "before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple" (Rev 7:15). Because they missed out on the greater glory of God's inheritance to Christ, they will be upset for a while, but "God will wipe away all tears from their eyes" (Rev 7:17).

soul man said:

Are you Jehovah witness?

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No!

Kiethr said:
There have been more than 144,000 baptised Christians during the last 1990 years. You seem to be implying that only 144,000 of the millions (or billions) of Christians "will also be part of his resurrection" (Rom 6:5), and the majority will be resurrected as humans, but Romans 6:3-5 says that all Christians will have a similar resurrection to Jesus'.[/Quote\]

Romans as all the other books of the new testament focuses on the brothers or the anointed some translations translates as saints.saints. Romans 1:7;1Corinthians 1:2; 2Corinthians 1:1; etc

After the first century ended an apostasy, which is a falling away of the truth about God, his Only Begotten Son and the true about what makes up the true Church started spreading like gangrene. The apostate church developed which most people today think is the true Church. So all those 1990 years that have passed that you're talking about, you may think all those people who were baptized were true christians, but I believe the majority of them belonged to the apostate church. So how many of those who were baptized during the 1990 years you're talking about were true christians, I certainly don't think the majority were true christians. Don't get me wrong there were those who were true christians who belonged to God during that 1990 years you're talking about but although I can't say how many were true christians during that 1990 years of time you're talking about, I do know their number during that 1990 years was a minority in comparison who were false Christians and members of the apostate church. [/Quote\]

Kiethr said:
You say you don't believe that redeemed Christians could live forever as humans, and yet you later imply that the majority of Christians will be resurrected as humans and live forever as humans - err, that's contradicting yourself[/Quote\]

I replied to what you said concerning the redeemed which you said: "Having been redeemed Christians could live forever as humans." I said that was a lie, because you're trying to imply or outright say that the redeemed are sinless people therefore will not grow old and die. Sin is the reason people grow old and die so for you to even imply that these redeemed don't grow old and die because of sin, your wrong. They grow old and die just like any other human, and that's because of sin, christians have no control over that.
Also in this wicked world or wicked system of things that Satan is ruler of, that christians have been living in for centuries, Jesus Christ never promised them, the 144000, eternal life as humans. He promised them immortal and incorruptible bodies in heaven.
The humans who will live forever as humans will do so not in this wicked world or wicked system of things that has Satan as it's ruler but in the new system of things that has Jesus Christ and the 144000 ruling over it.[/QUOTE\]

Keithr said:
Although the Greek word translated as "coming" is parousia, which could be translated as presence, clearly in this case translating it with its alternative meaning of coming or arrival is more appropriate. This is because the context declares "the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet", so it is a specific sudden event, a descending rather than a continual presence.[/Quote\]

I disagree that coming is appropriate translation of parousia. Jesus discussed the sign of his presence. (Matthew 24:3) If his presence were visible to human eyes, would a sign be needed? What I mean is, imagine that you are traveling to see the ocean. You may see road signs directing you along the way, but once you are at the shore, standing at the water’s edge with the vast expanse of water stretching out to the horizon, would you expect to see a sign with a big arrow pointing ahead, emblazoned with the word “Ocean”? Of course not! Why have a sign to point out what you can easily identify with your eyes?

Jesus described the sign of his presence, not to point out something that humans could see with their eyes, but to help them discern something that would occur in heaven. That's why Jesus said: “The kingdom of God is not coming with striking observableness.” (Luke 17:20) How, then, would the sign show those on earth that Christ’s presence had begun? Isn't it true that Jesus gave us a composite sign at: Matthew 24:7-12; Luke 21:10,11.What would cause all this misery? The Bible explains that Satan, “the ruler of this world,” is full of rage because he knows that his time is very short now that Christ’s presence as King has begun. (John 12:31; Revelation 12:9, 12) Such visible evidence of Satan’s rage and of Christ’s presence has been abundant in our time.
I agree many translations vary their renderings of this word. While translating pa·rou·siʹa as “presence” in some texts, they more frequently render it as “coming.” This has been the basis for the expression “second coming” or “second advent” Mt 24:3) with regard to Christ Jesus. While Jesus’ presence of necessity implies his arrival at the place where he is present, the translation of pa·rou·siʹa by “coming” places all the emphasis on the arrival and obscures the subsequent presence that follows the arrival. Though allowing for both “arrival” and “presence” as translations of pa·rou·siʹa, lexicographers generally acknowledge that the presence of the person is the principal idea conveyed by the word.
Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 1, pp. 208, 209) states: “PAROUSIA . . . denotes both an arrival and a consequent presence with.
Also Jesus said that his presence would be like “the days of Noah.” We know that God came to Noah and told Noah to build an ark and God was present there while Noah was building that ark. (Matthew 24:37-39) Noah was more than an ark builder; he was also “a preacher of righteousness.” (2 Peter 2:5) Noah warned people that a judgment from God was on its way. Jesus said that his followers on earth would be doing something similar during his presence. He prophesied: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”—Matthew 24:14.

BARNEY BRIGHT said:

Keithr said:
There have been more than 144,000 baptised Christians during the last 1990 years. You seem to be implying that only 144,000 of the millions (or billions) of Christians "will also be part of his resurrection" (Rom 6:5), and the majority will be resurrected as humans, but Romans 6:3-5 says that all Christians will have a similar resurrection to Jesus'.

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Romans as all the other books of the new testament focuses on the brothers or the anointed some translations translates as saints.saints. Romans 1:7;1Corinthians 1:2; 2Corinthians 1:1; etc

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The Greek word that's translated as saints is hagios and means holy or 'holy one'. It's referring to all Christians; all Christians are referred to as saints. The New World Translation translates Romans 1:6,7 as "among which [nations] you also are those called to belong to Jesus Christ - (7) to all those who are in Rome as God's beloved ones, called to be holy ones"

After the first century ended an apostasy, which is a falling away of the truth about God, his Only Begotten Son and the true about what makes up the true Church started spreading like gangrene. The apostate church developed which most people today think is the true Church. So all those 1990 years that have passed that you're talking about, you may think all those people who were baptized were true christians, but I believe the majority of them belonged to the apostate church. So how many of those who were baptized during the 1990 years you're talking about were true christians, I certainly don't think the majority were true christians. Don't get me wrong there were those who were true christians who belonged to God during that 1990 years you're talking about but although I can't say how many were true christians during that 1990 years of time you're talking about, I do know their number during that 1990 years was a minority in comparison who were false Christians and members of the apostate church.

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This is why Bible study is important. Just attending a church doesn't make you a Christian, but Jesus knows them that are his (2Tim 2:19 - 'God’s firm foundation stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let every one who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness.”'). As Jesus puts it, in a couple of parables, "For many are called, but few are chosen." (Mat 22:14).

However, if you have been baptised, fully understanding what that means, then I believe you are a true Christian. Your zeal may diminish, but you were still sealed, and if you maintain your faith and remain an overcomer until your death, then Jesus said, "He who overcomes, I will give to him to sit down with me on my throne, as I also overcame, and sat down with my Father on his throne" (Rev 3:21).

So what is important is our faith, although we may not fully understand all of God's word, as Paul said, "For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I will know fully, even as I was also fully known." (1 Cor 13:12).

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus" (Gal 3:26).

1 John 5:1-5 ASV -
1) Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2) Hereby we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and do his commandments.
3) For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
4) For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith.
5) And who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

I replied to what you said concerning the redeemed which you said: "Having been redeemed Christians could live forever as humans." I said that was a lie, because you're trying to imply or outright say that the redeemed are sinless people therefore will not grow old and die. Sin is the reason people grow old and die so for you to even imply that these redeemed don't grow old and die because of sin, your wrong.They grow old and die just like any other human, and that's because of sin, christians have no control over that.

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As Christians we have been redeemed and justified, and our sins have been forgiven - "giving thanks to the Father, who made us fit to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light; who delivered us out of the power of darkness, and translated us into the Kingdom of the Son of his love; in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins;" (Col 1:12-14). Being covered by the shed blood of Jesus, and having Jesus' righteousness imputed to us, God now reckons us as perfect and sinless, even though we are currently still living in imperfect bodies, which are sinful by nature.

1 John 1:
7) But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin.
8) If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Romans 7:17-20 -
17) So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me.
18) For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwells no good thing. For desire is present with me, but I don’t find it doing that which is good.
19) For the good which I desire, I don’t do; but the evil which I don’t desire, that I practice.
20) But if what I don’t desire, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwells in me.

(Rom 6:18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
(Rom 8:10) If Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

So as God reckons us, as new creatures in Christ, righteous and sinless, then God grants us eternal life. But we still die because we sacrifice that life with Jesus - "Do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized [immersed] into His death?" (Rom 6:3).

... Jesus Christ never promised them, the 144000, eternal life as humans. He promised them immortal and incorruptible bodies in heaven.

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Paul, speaking to Christians about our resurrection bodies, said (1 Cor 15:51-53):

"We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we will be changed. For this perishable body must become imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality."

Keithr said:
Although the Greek word translated as "coming" is parousia, which could be translated as presence, clearly in this case translating it with its alternative meaning of coming or arrival is more appropriate. This is because the context declares "the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God’s trumpet", so it is a specific sudden event, a descending rather than a continual presence.

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I disagree that coming is appropriate translation of parousia.

I agree many translations vary their renderings of this word. While translating pa·rou·siʹa as “presence” in some texts, they more frequently render it as “coming.” This has been the basis for the expression “second coming” or “second advent” Mt 24:3) with regard to Christ Jesus. ...

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However, the rapture passage that I quoted is not what is referred to as Jesus' second coming, which occurs at the end of the time of great tribulation, whereas the rapture occurs before the time of great tribulation. As I mentioned, the rapture is Jesus fulfilling his promise, "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and will receive you to myself; that where I am, you may be there also" (John 14:3). That return of Jesus, for the church, is a quick event. As Paul said, all Christians, dead and still alive, "will be changed" "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye", at the sound of "the last trumpet" (1Cor 15:52).

April_Rose said:

When he was in Heaven and there's no sin in Heaven? Also, would God forgive him if he repented?

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In short. Because he could. And no, because of where he was.

WaterSong said:

Another curious thing in the post war era is, why did God let Lucifer and those angels who obeyed him to live after they lost the war?
Only to let them vex humans on earth.

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If God had squashed Lucifer and his friends the moment he had rebelled or lost the war, what would the remaining angels have thought regarding God?

I haven't read through all the thread but he sinned on earth, He got cast out of Heaven

Backlit said:

If God had squashed Lucifer and his friends the moment he had rebelled or lost the war, what would the remaining angels have thought regarding God?

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You mean after those remaining angels fought Satan and 1/3 of their brothers who sided with him in that war in heaven?
Probably the same thing humans say about God when they try to validate all those God killed in the OT. "He's God! He can do what he wants with his creation. "

HisLife said:

I haven't read through all the thread but he sinned on earth, He got cast out of Heaven

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Love the frog!
Be advised there are some who believe Satan still resides in Heaven. He won't be cast out until the tribulation. (I'm not one of those people.)

Taken said:

The question was is hate a sin.
I said no.
Points;
•Hate is a strong dislike.
•I hate peas. A sin?
•I am in Christ.
•Who is my brother? Does the WILL of Father.
•Will of Father? Reasonable Service
...Believe in God
...Believe in Jesus the Christ
...Convert in Christ Jesus
...Present Body wholly/holy unto God


1 John 3:
[14] We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
[15] Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

Matt 12
[50] For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Rom 12:
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Question?
What if you strongly dislike (hate) one who is "not" a "brother"?
Is THAT a sin?

Isn't one who is not a "brother" / "brethren",
Against God?

It is not a matter of Love VS Hate.
It is a matter of "Liking" or "Not Liking"
Reasoning...
...an other who is with you or against you.
Enemy...
...one who is Against you
Love...
...your enemy.

IOW-
Love all period. (Friend and Enemy)
Do not Dislike/hate (a brother.)
A brother is (believer God/Christ Converted)
Enemy is Against, in Disagreement.
Disagreement of WHAT?
Right VS Wrong.

FollowHim for example...
...I have never heard his testimony of belief.
...a Brother? Don't know.
...Expressed hating him? No.
...Against him? Yes
...Disagree with him? Yes
...Disagree about what?
...Statements he makes About...
....Trump, Trump supporters, US legalities.
....Making claims, with his words, for others they did not say.
....Making Accusations, without evidence.
....His support of Force by man VS Freewill of man
....Right VS Wrong...God gives Freewill...Man Forces without Choice.
...He is my adversary, Enemy.

God loves All.
Yet some are Gods Enemies.

I love all.
Yet some are my enemies.

(Some Men try to sum this up as...
Love the man, hate the sin).

In the current climate of activities...

I believe my government is an entity limited by Constitutional Law. I believe my Representative is my Servant, to keep any other Servant (of an other, /State), from oppressing my rights.

My government, my Servant Representative IS NOT my Physician, Teacher, Necessities Provider, Prossessions Owner, etc.
Nor my Dictator.
When the Representatives ARE Corrupt BY Dictating and Forcing outside of the Limits of Constitutional Law...They Become the Enemy.
Those who promote and stand with Dictating and Force...Become my enemy.

When improprities are accused, evidence collected...and men Representing the People refuse to even hear or consider Evidence ...they are derelict in Duty ...and worthless to sit in an Honored seat.

Taking pleasure in/ standing with one who is derelict in Duty...well, it's like this...

Rom 1
[31]... covenant breakers...
[32] Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Every Representative "takes an oath" ...


Glory to God,
Taken

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God hates, don't forget.

WaterSong said:

You mean after those remaining angels fought Satan and 1/3 of their brothers who sided with him in that war in heaven?
Probably the same thing humans say about God when they try to validate all those God killed in the OT. "He's God! He can do what he wants with his creation. "

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Within the limits of His own righteousness and holiness yes. Satan has no such scruples. There are however I believe rules on engagement in the current warfare between Christ and Satan. We don't know precisely what they are, but we do have some clues in scripture that the devil is in some ways limited in his power. He would certainly destroy us all of he could.
But the principle of why God didn't squelch Lucifer right from the get-go as you asked, begins with freedom of choice. In heaven, Lucifer's rebellion was a rebellion against the government of God, and through lies, slander, and deceit, (the original Greek word used was what we derived the word polemics and politics) he managed to convince a full third of the angelic host to side with him against God. This obviously did not happen overnight, and you can be sure that God knew what was going on, yet allowed it to continue to play itself out . Why? Because Lucifer's rebellion was not one that involved swords and guns and weapons...it was a war of ideas. Of principles involving God's right to rule, and His system of government. It was, as with all rebellions, one against the laws and principles of the prevailing power. So whatever lies and injustices were involved in the charges that Lucifer was making against God, would very likely have been affirmed in the mind of all the angels if God had arbitrarily destroyed Lucifer at that time. Any doubts about God in the remaining 1/3, would have been confirmed. So destroying Lucifer, or Satan, at that time would not have solved the problem. What God had to do, and what He has done and is still in the processing of doing, is to destroy the ideas that Lucifer planted in the minds and hearts of men, because after having been turfed out from heaven, Satan continued his warfare here. (Note that Eve was deceived through polemics... Argument) And it has been extremely successful. The vast majority of mankind has the completely wrong idea about who God is, and His true character and nature. Even in the church, most have only a very vague conception as to the character of God....this was a major part of Jesus ministry...to reveal to mankind the love of the Father.
The trouble coming upon the world, the depth of evil that is even now beginning to develop, will, when fully matured, convince everyone that Satans ways...that is living in rejection to the laws of God as he successfully tempted Adam and Eve to do, is futile and is rebellion. Man will finally realize that God's laws are laws of love, kindness, and are not, nor ever have been. a burden or detrimental to the well-being of man. Then God's ways will be fully vindicated, and that knowledge and understanding among the redeemed, will be all they need to choose never to sin or offend again.

Like I said, Satan began an idea. An idea which has resulted in most of the world claiming God as a a hard task-master whose laws or commandments cannot be kept. Even other Christians on this forum believe God's commandments not only cannot be kept, but don't even need to be kept. Just like Satan said to Eve. You don't need to obey God in order to become like Him. You can eat of the tree and be gods. Yeah, right. Just like modern Christians believe we can become like Christ while actively disobeying God's commandments.
So yeah, God could have squashed Lucifer right at the start, but the idea, the philosophy that began in heaven and brought to this planet, that rebellion against God's commandments can bring you happiness, would never have been disproved. The spiritual warfare now being waged all around us is all about obedience...loyalty....worship. Satan's way is never mind God's government and form of rulership, do your own thing and you'll be fine. Yes, God could have destroyed Satan, but the ideas he implanted into the minds of angels and then men, would have not only remained, but been affirmed. The ideas and opinions that you hear today from those who choose not to follow Christ are the very same ideas that Satan began in heaven. Only the coming crisis of intense wickedness will finally convince men that God's ways are best...His commandments are indeed beneficial to mankind, and we will then worship and serve Him in love, and not fear.

Backlit said:

Within the limits of His own righteousness and holiness yes. Satan has no such scruples. There are however I believe rules on engagement in the current warfare between Christ and Satan. We don't know precisely what they are, but we do have some clues in scripture that the devil is in some ways limited in his power. He would certainly destroy us all of he could.
But the principle of why God didn't squelch Lucifer right from the get-go as you asked, begins with freedom of choice. In heaven, Lucifer's rebellion was a rebellion against the government of God, and through lies, slander, and deceit, (the original Greek word used was what we derived the word polemics and politics) he managed to convince a full third of the angelic host to side with him against God. This obviously did not happen overnight, and you can be sure that God knew what was going on, yet allowed it to continue to play itself out . Why? Because Lucifer's rebellion was not one that involved swords and guns and weapons...it was a war of ideas. Of principles involving God's right to rule, and His system of government. It was, as with all rebellions, one against the laws and principles of the prevailing power. So whatever lies and injustices were involved in the charges that Lucifer was making against God, would very likely have been affirmed in the mind of all the angels if God had arbitrarily destroyed Lucifer at that time. Any doubts about God in the remaining 1/3, would have been confirmed. So destroying Lucifer, or Satan, at that time would not have solved the problem. What God had to do, and what He has done and is still in the processing of doing, is to destroy the ideas that Lucifer planted in the minds and hearts of men, because after having been turfed out from heaven, Satan continued his warfare here. (Note that Eve was deceived through polemics... Argument) And it has been extremely successful. The vast majority of mankind has the completely wrong idea about who God is, and His true character and nature. Even in the church, most have only a very vague conception as to the character of God....this was a major part of Jesus ministry...to reveal to mankind the love of the Father.
The trouble coming upon the world, the depth of evil that is even now beginning to develop, will, when fully matured, convince everyone that Satans ways...that is living in rejection to the laws of God as he successfully tempted Adam and Eve to do, is futile and is rebellion. Man will finally realize that God's laws are laws of love, kindness, and are not, nor ever have been. a burden or detrimental to the well-being of man. Then God's ways will be fully vindicated, and that knowledge and understanding among the redeemed, will be all they need to choose never to sin or offend again.

Like I said, Satan began an idea. An idea which has resulted in most of the world claiming God as a a hard task-master whose laws or commandments cannot be kept. Even other Christians on this forum believe God's commandments not only cannot be kept, but don't even need to be kept. Just like Satan said to Eve. You don't need to obey God in order to become like Him. You can eat of the tree and be gods. Yeah, right. Just like modern Christians believe we can become like Christ while actively disobeying God's commandments.
So yeah, God could have squashed Lucifer right at the start, but the idea, the philosophy that began in heaven and brought to this planet, that rebellion against God's commandments can bring you happiness, would never have been disproved. The spiritual warfare now being waged all around us is all about obedience...loyalty....worship. Satan's way is never mind God's government and form of rulership, do your own thing and you'll be fine. Yes, God could have destroyed Satan, but the ideas he implanted into the minds of angels and then men, would have not only remained, but been affirmed. The ideas and opinions that you hear today from those who choose not to follow Christ are the very same ideas that Satan began in heaven. Only the coming crisis of intense wickedness will finally convince men that God's ways are best...His commandments are indeed beneficial to mankind, and we will then worship and serve Him in love, and not fear.

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Satan said this:Genesis 3 BSB
For God knows that in the day you eat of it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.

Interestingly, what many miss? Satan did not lie.
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil.

The other thing most miss? Without the knowledge of good and evil, obedience and disobedience, Eve nor Adam would be able to choose to obey or disobey God's command not to eat.
There would have been nothing to eat of had God not planted it there in the center of the garden. Which cannot be paradise if it contains a tree bearing the fruit of damnation.
When man and woman were made of God, therein were of and from God, what would be wrong with being like God in knowledge? God has that knowledge. What damned Adam and Eve wasn't the fruit. It was that they disobeyed his order not to eat of it. However, without knowledge of what it means to obey, they were not actually guilty of wilful disobedience because they did not know the difference.
What happened to them was akin to putting a weeks old baby in a playpen filled with toys. But having one toy be off limits. Then telling that newborn, don't touch that toy or else you'll be separated from mommy and daddy in another room forever.

The baby doesn't understand those orders. They're innocent. As was Adam and Eve. But the crafty wiser serpent was let into the garden to tempt those whom he knew would succumb due to their ignorance that was due to their innocence.

Why?

You as much as said it yourself. Without the fall people wouldn't find their way to God.
Which means God intended that.
But why?
When that makes God sound like an ego maniac. God knows he's God. He damns the entire human race so that we'll struggle to overcome the evil he let live on earth? So that we seek him out to save us from what he allowed to exist and that we belong to by God's will first?
Because when we're damned sinners first, that makes us to be in the domain of the adverse of God; Satan.