Rome's 7 0F 10 Hills

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popeye

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I'm not sure what part of history you may have studied, but the trade routes to the Far East were not opened until ~200 B.C. Did you think that Tigers were being imported in ~500 B.C.?
What does the history of the tiger in Babylon have to do with what Daniel saw, 'Scribe? Daniel recorded a leopard as shown to him by an angel. John recorded a leopard as shown to him by another angel. Unless you were an eyewitness with Daniel in his dream, how can you know what Daniel REALLY saw vs what he recorded. On the same note, how do you know John saw a tiger, but recorded a leopard to keep consistent with Daniel? Did John tell you he did that ? Nowhere does it say that John based his prophecies on Daniel's. John recorded what he saw, as he was directed by the angel. Period.


And finally, do you think that GOD is unable to convey HIS Divine Purpose to HIS creation? -- Maybe things are so simple that all we have to do is perceive the Daniel 2:45 FIVE World Empires (for which the FIFTH is "divided", and the Daniel 7 four beasts which represent the three-superpowers and the fourth one-world-government. And having this knowledge, that Revelation 13 should confirm these as concurrent superpowers which have an association for the Lion as the Head; the Leopard as the Body; and the Bear as the Feet.


And then again, I've already asked why each of the beasts are depicted as the specific body regions, -- but you have thus far been unable to provide that more than simple assessment. Maybe any such significance is ~inconsequential~
.

Careful now.....sez nothing about the head of a lion. It says "as the mouth of a lion", "as the feet of a bear" and "like unto a leopard". Frankly, I think the lord is simply saying the ET's beast has remnants of those three superpowers within it's membership, and / or controls those 3 superpowers. Nothing more, nothing less. Question is: Does it also have the wings of two of those three beasts as well?

The ET's beast is nothing more than a composite of all the nations AC controls.
 

BibleScribe

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What does the history of the tiger in Babylon have to do with what Daniel saw, 'Scribe? Daniel recorded a leopard as shown to him by an angel. John recorded a leopard as shown to him by another angel. Unless you were an eyewitness with Daniel in his dream, how can you know what Daniel REALLY saw vs what he recorded. On the same note, how do you know John saw a tiger, but recorded a leopard to keep consistent with Daniel? Did John tell you he did that ? Nowhere does it say that John based his prophecies on Daniel's. John recorded what he saw, as he was directed by the angel. Period.

Presume what you want, but the three beasts of Revelation 13 are the same three beasts of Daniel 7.

Careful now.....sez nothing about the head of a lion. It says "as the mouth of a lion", "as the feet of a bear" and "like unto a leopard". Frankly, I think the lord is simply saying the ET's beast has remnants of those three superpowers within it's membership, and / or controls those 3 superpowers. Nothing more, nothing less. Question is: Does it also have the wings of two of those three beasts as well?

The ET's beast is nothing more than a composite of all the nations AC controls.

Once again, you apparently are unable to cite why the Revelation 13 beasts are assigned to the different physiology.


BibleScribe
 

BibleScribe

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To All,

Apparently GOD is not reliable. HE told us we would have a "divided" empire after the Roman empire ceased to exist, (typical of the three-superpowers), and we don't believe HIM. HE told us this FIFTH empire would have some attribute from the Roman Empire, (typical of the Roman Representative Republic), and we don't believe HIM. HE told us that the "divided" empire would consist of a Lion/Eagle (typical of the U.K./U.S.); a Bear with three-ribs between it's teeth (typical of Russia, and the three recognized violations of international law); and a Leopard which has four heads and four wings (typical of China, which has Four branches of government, and Four Modernizations) and we don't believe HIM.

We would rather disbelievet both GOD's Word, and recorded World History, and make fables from our own imaginations.


Is it any wonder that GOD calls people one of the stupidest animals ever created, -- sheep?

BibleScribe
 

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The seat of Satans power is in Pergamon, Turkey. See Rev 2:12-13.

The future actions of the anti-Christ will begin there.
For detailed explanations of who will be involved in the final alliances of nations against God and His people, please refer to my previous posts.

There are presently a large number of well organized individuals in the middle east who are dedicated to rebuilding the Islamic Imperial caliphate in Turkey.
The present government there is viewed as moderate by western leaders even though the president of Turkey has publicly said that isn't true.

Why don't our leaders pay attention to clear distinct signals?

Recently there was a coup in Turkey. The events there are far from certain, but they do bear scrutiny.
Here are news stories about the strange things happening in the leadership of Turkey today - with a hint of possible future repercussions.

Once again I caution you all......

WATCH TURKEY
-------------------------------
Turkish government set to reshape armyFont Size: Larger|Smaller

Sunday, July 31, 2011
SERKAN DEMIRTAS
ANKARA - Hürriyet Daily News

Turkey’s Supreme Military Council, or YAS, will begin its annual four-day meetings Monday with many question marks after the military brass’ unprecedented resignations Friday put the shape of the new command structure in serious doubt.

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and acting Chief of General Staff Gen. Necdet Özel will co-chair the meetings which will meet in the absence of the land, air, naval and gendarmerie force commanders for the first time in history. YAS member and Commander of War Academies Gen. Bilgin Balanli will also be absent from the meeting after he was arrested in May on charges of trying to topple the government, meaning that the council will convene with only 11 of the required 16 members.


ALJAZEERA
July 30, 2011

Turkey's secular society, enshrined in the constitution and fiercely protected by the military, is one of the things that defines the country.

But tension between Turkey's government and military has been brewing for years. And the apparent war of words between the military and the ruling AK Party got worse when Turkey's four top military commanders submitted their retirement letters.

It looms large over all of Turkish life: the Turkish military, the guardians of the secular constitution. But what happens when Turkey's four top military men all want out? Is a showdown between government and army edging closer? And how does it impact the military's political role? Is the military's power dwindling?
 

popeye

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Presume what you want, but the three beasts of Revelation 13 are the same three beasts of Daniel 7.
I never said they weren't the same beasts. In fact, I believe as you, that they are the same beasts. A little defensive aren't we?

Once again, you apparently are unable to cite why the Revelation 13 beasts are assigned to the different physiology.
Enlighten us....
 

popeye

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To All,
HE told us that the "divided" empire would consist of a Lion/Eagle (typical of the U.K./U.S.); a Bear with three-ribs between it's teeth (typical of Russia, and the three recognized violations of international law); and a Leopard which has four heads and four wings (typical of China, which has Four branches of government, and Four Modernizations) and we don't believe HIM.
He never told us that. He told us that the divided kingdom would have two feet and ten toes. That's it. You are the one who is trying to convince us that the three superpowers are somehow related to the composite of the 7-headed beast of Rev 12 & 13. Fact is - and mark this well - the beast of Daniel 7:20 has 10 horns coming out of ONE HEAD, and it exists simultaneously with the other three superpower beasts. People miss this little clue / detail.

Capping then, the beast of Rev 12 & 13 shows 7 heads ( all existed prior to Babylon ). Six of the heads are whoever ( I believe fallen spirits ) the 7th head has 10 horns, 3 of whom are "plucked-up by the roots", leaving 7 horns and the eighth little horn.

So there are 7 heads, one head with 8 horns, on a body of a leopard, with feet of a bear. And the head holding the 8 horns, speaks with the mouth of a lion ( roars ), having great IRON teeth ( Roman Empire vestige ). And the "little horn" WAS one of the original 7 head / kings ( Rev 12 ), but is also the eighth ( Rev 18 )...

Is it any wonder that GOD calls people one of the stupidest animals ever created, -- sheep?
Yeah, but we make good sweaters!:lol:
 

BibleScribe

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...
Enlighten us....


It's as significant as the Daniel 2:45 ~4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE; it's as significant as the Daniel 2:39 definition of the Grecian Empire which is characterized as "all the earth"; it's as significant as the Daniel 1:21 instruction that Daniel ~DIED~ in the first year of King Cyrus (versus the flawed assumption that Daniel 10:1 places Daniel in the third year of King Cyrus); it's as significant as Daniel 5:31 where Darius was made the LAST Babylonian King; it's as significant as Daniel 6:28 where the sequence of Empires is validated from the Babylonian to the Medo/Persian; it's as significant as the Daniel 9:2 "perceived" which is not the simple shama, but the Solomon wisdom biyn; it's as significant as the Daniel 9:24 use of the inconcise Masculine Gender shibiym/shabuwa (plural/singular); it's as significant as the Daniel 11:2 sequence of World Empires, -- arriving to WwI; and the list could go on and on for which you apparently cannot answer any correctly.

So you as me to "enlighten" you? Maybe you could start with Daniel 2:45, and then proceed from there.


BibleScribe
 

popeye

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So you as me to "enlighten" you? Maybe you could start with Daniel 2:45, and then proceed from there.

BibleScribe
Look, we've been all over that. Please tell us in plain speak, why the physiology of the composite beast of Rev 13 is as it is.
There is no need to justify your answer with any scripture. Just be plain in your answer.

Why is the head having the mouth of a lion, and why is the lion not the body / feet?

Same with the leopard / tiger

Same with the bear....
 

BibleScribe

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He never told us that. He told us that the divided kingdom would have two feet and ten toes. ...


LOLOLOL

Ummmmm, yeah, the Legs aren't "divided" but the Feet are?

And it's not obvious that the toes aren't just one, but there are actually TEN?!?!?!


Wow, GOD certainly is smarter that me, I always thought the Feet had one toe. :rolleyes:



LOLOLOLOL
 

BibleScribe

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Look, we've been all over that. Please tell us in plain speak, why the physiology of the composite beast of Rev 13 is as it is.
...



In the words of Jack Nicholson, -- "you can't handle it".

Popeye, if you were interested in the TRUTH of Scripture you'd start at the beginning and work to the end. But you want to compare your house without a foundation against my house with a foundation, by examining the gingerbread on the soffits.

And so I will maintain every aspect as identified in Post #207 (plus MORE), which I would propose you cannot resolve, and include this one on top of it.


BibleScribe
 

popeye

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In the words of Jack Nicholson, -- "you can't handle it".

Popeye, if you were interested in the TRUTH of Scripture you'd start at the beginning and work to the end. But you want to compare your house without a foundation against my house with a foundation, by examining the gingerbread on the soffits.

BibleScribe

And Jack Nicholson's character was GUILTY of withholding information from the jury. Just as you're doing with the physiology of the lion, tiger and bear, oh my!
My guess? You don't know either why they are placed on the beast where they are. Otherwise you'd tell us....and you would stop beating-around the bush.

I like others here, don't want a bible study series professored by BibleScribe over the course of 15 lessons. Tell us clearly, and plainly.
If you want your POV known so that it may help others, then tell us, or I, for one, will opt out of this conversation and start a topic that doesn't concern Daniel.

And no, I don't want to compare what I believe concerning their placement upon the beast, with yours. Frankly, I really don't know why they are where they are. That's
why I want to pick your mind for a possible reasonable interpretation. But, if you're going to play hide n' seek with The Truth, I'm not game partner.
 

BibleScribe

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...
Tell us clearly, and plainly.
...

Did you think that "no" means "yes? Can I be anymore clear as to the value of Scripture and the significance of that foundation, as assessed against the truth of History?


Your agenda has apparently muddled your mind, and no amount of information can rectify your thoughts. You believe what you want, and argue what you believe, independent of reality. So why worry what Scripture says, and History fulfills. You already have your own answer.


BibleScribe
 

popeye

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Did you think that "no" means "yes? Can I be anymore clear as to the value of Scripture and the significance of that foundation, as assessed against the truth of History?


Your agenda has apparently muddled your mind, and no amount of information can rectify your thoughts. You believe what you want, and argue what you believe, independent of reality. So why worry what Scripture says, and History fulfills. You already have your own answer.


BibleScribe

You sound somewhat irritated, 'Scribe :unsure: Was it something I said?:p
 

BibleScribe

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... the beast of Rev 12 & 13 shows 7 heads ( all existed prior to Babylon ). Six of the heads are whoever ( I believe fallen spirits ) ...

I once asked the Pastor and assistant Pastor of my church exactly who the Revelation 13:2 beast seven-heads represented. The Pastor couldn't answer the question, but he was smart enough to keep his mouth shut. The assistant Pastor volunteered that the seventh was the a/c, and the remaining six represented people who hated the Jews, throughout world history.

And a series of questions could arise in anyone's mind: -- There's only six people who hated the Jews? That's what you want me to believe? I knew I was ugly, but did you think I was stupid. Do you think I am both? Or better yet, are you both.


But of such are the makings of religion. It's a "belief" system, which requires no intellect, no criticism, and no TRUTH. All it needs is blind obedience. -- Fortunately wisdom suggests:

When someone demands blind obedience, you'd be a fool not to peek. - Jim Fiebig.



But who has wisdom?

BibleScribe
 

popeye

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I once asked the Pastor and assistant Pastor of my church exactly who the Revelation 13:2 beast seven-heads represented. The Pastor couldn't answer the question, but he was smart enough to keep his mouth shut. The assistant Pastor volunteered that the seventh was the a/c, and the remaining six represented people who hated the Jews, throughout world history.

And a series of questions could arise in anyone's mind: -- There's only six people who hated the Jews? That's what you want me to believe? I knew I was ugly, but did you think I was stupid. Do you think I am both? Or better yet, are you both.


But of such are the makings of religion. It's a "belief" system, which requires no intellect, no criticism, and no TRUTH. All it needs is blind obedience. -- Fortunately wisdom suggests:

When someone demands blind obedience, you'd be a fool not to peek. - Jim Fiebig.



But who has wisdom?

BibleScribe
You hit the nail on the head with your last question, 'Scribe. Wisdom is another word for understanding ( as opposed to knowledge ).
Obviously your assistant pastor should have followed his teacher's example. Like the quote!

Just as the Antichrist is opposed to Christ, and he copies God ( with Him as The Father, and AC, as The Son, and the False Prophet, as the HS ) so too does he try to imitate the seven spirits of God ( see Rev 1:4, Rev 3:1, and Rev 4:5 ) with the seven headed beast. I also believe these seven heads are 7of his highest ranking fallen spirits who have possessed leaders of the past. This is also why I believe it is possible for the AC's spirit to be "one of the seven, but also the eighth". Do I know for sure this is the answer? Of course not. But, it's the only way I can justify Rev 17:11. The 7 heads could also be symbolic for nations, or land masses, such as Latin America, Canada, USA....EU....Russia, Australia, Africa.

Food for thought...
 

BibleScribe

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... The 7 heads could also be symbolic for nations, or land masses, such as Latin America, Canada, USA....EU....Russia, Australia, Africa.
...

I would agree that any uninformed individual can assign different significance to the seven heads. But there is only ONE interpretation:

2 Peter 1:20
knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.



The TRUTH of the Revelation 13:1-3 Beast's seven heads is not found in guessing. It has an absolute fulfillment which is quite obvious. But it ain't seven people who hate the Jews; seven continents; seven Roman emperors; seven ancient empires (starting with Assyria, etc.); seven Catholic Popes; etc.


... or we can continue guessing.



BibleScribe
 

popeye

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2 Peter 1:20
knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.


BibleScribe

I know alot of people quote this scripture when they perceive that someone they are debating is citing supposition to support their interpretations. However, the scripture is indicating - to me anyways - that Peter is saying that anything related to prophecy, that is recorded in the Holy Scriptures, came from God, and NOT one of those authors attributed to the writing of the prophecy. In other words, prophetic scripture came from God, and NOT the author. And that is all he's saying.... Peter is NOT saying that those, like us, who try and interpret the prophecies, can't make supposition on the prophecies that were given by God. Obviously many good and righteous men over the course of Christian history have tried to interpret the prophecies and have failed. The Holy Spirit will reveal the correct interpretation to an individual, when it is time to....and not before. In the meantime, you and I can attempt to try and understand these things, as we were instructed to. And there is no shame in doing this....even if we hypothesize, theorize and even guess at times.:)
 

BibleScribe

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... In other words, prophetic scripture came from God, and NOT the author. And that is all he's saying.... ... The Holy Spirit will reveal the correct interpretation ...

Hi Popeye,

We may be saying the same thing, -- in that one individual's view regarding ~ the sequence of Roman Emperors; ~the definition of a "hill"; ~ the number of continents; etc. are NOT all correct. There is ONE interpretation and it does NOT come by any individual, whether the Pastor, or Scholar, -- it comes by fulfillment (either past, present, or future) according to the concise intent of the AUTHOR.

And as you suggest, a postulation is the methodology by which we investigate both the merit of Scripture (i.e., understanding the literal text, -- as appropriate); and the merit of History (i.e., discounting a false rendering of history by dishonest commentators).



So the question remains: Who are the seven heads, and why are all these aspects presented in a consolidation which is NOT a world empire, -- but rather a one-world-government entity which has NO geography, NO populous, and NO army of it's own? And of course, this consolidation MUST have a leader, who is described in Rev. 13:11-18.


BibleScribe
 

revturmoil

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Revelation 13:1 ¶And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

We may all have different ideas who or what this beast is.

This is a complete endtime entity. It's not a sucession of empires. Neither is it a global empire or one world government.

I know that most of you are opposed to using bible study resourcs to gain a better understanding of the author and original text. Word studies in the original text is only the beginning of a good hermeneutic. Good study books are also helpful. You can't interpret the bible in English to get the full meaning of it. In end-time prophecy you usually get the incorrect understanding of it. There are hundred of examples where the definition of words in the original text are not at all like the English translation.

John sees this beast rise up out from the sea. The words, "out from" indicate to me that this beast is a complete end-time figure. It emerges all at once in the last days.

OUT FROM IS...A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative.

Rev. 13 is a great chapter to show you how words really do need to be observed in the original taext. Especially small 3 letter words like "ALL."

In verse 3... and 2532 all 3650 the world 1093 wondered

V.3 the word all means the entire world. Wouldn't the entire world will marvel if they see Saddam or bin Laden return?

In verse 8 another word for all is used. And 2532 ALL 3956 that dwell 2730 upon 1909 the earth. This word means individually. In verse three the word world is used in verse 8 the word earth is used. Any idea why? Without a word study into these things I doubt that anyone can achieved a correct interpretation. And without a good hermeneutic, people can go off into all sorts of directions and make anything fit into bible prophecy.

The word all and earth in verse 8 is better understood as "all within his authority, region, and religion." They shall worship the beast indicating these things to be specfic to him. All or 'pas' doesn't indicate a global empire. If that were the intended meaning the author, he would have used the word 'holos' which does mean all encompassing instead of the word "pas" which indicate those individual things are specific only to the beast religion and kingdom. 'Pas' implies all things within something.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Muslim's are not written in the book of life, and verse 10 is a perfect description of the cruel and oppressive nature of Islam. Islam often speaks about "The swod of Allah" or converting by the sword. Beheading is mentioned in Revelation as one method of persecution and Muslim's seem to be the only ones doing these things these days. And their abominations are often directed against the saints and all infidels with global dominance as their goal.

I'm kind of discouraged to discuss these things with you guys. You're too much into your own heads and you simply don't study these things objectively or hermeneutically.
The only religion on earth who gets on their knees and bows toward Mecca with forehead to the ground are Muslim's and they do it 5 times a day. The anti-christ will change Islamic law. Muslim's will worship the beast and this could be directed to the Dome of the Rock where the man of sin will become the abomination.