Gifts Of The Spirit Are NOT Proof That You Have The Holy Spirit
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2nd Timothy Group
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Nancy
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This is true Pat, but I don't necessarily recognize a true Christian, no matter what sensational type gift they have as, they can have every one of them but, without Love...? I pray in the spirit in my own language, I walk in the spirit as a natural human being walks, I worship in the spirit with hands and voice raised but...I have no specific spiritual "gift" to prove to men that I am God's, EXCEPT for the "fruits" of the Spirit. If there is any gift from him, for myself, it would be the gift of "helps", giving, possibly discernment in recognizing red flags, and encouragement, nothing "sensational" and that's just fine with me as, we believe without seeing I thought...
So many focus on one or two things ALL. The. Time. If they are on, you can pretty much guess what thread they are going to be on.So, I know many on here now and in times past would call me un-saved and that is their prerogative to do so, I need to prove not a thing to men. Only to God
Amen!xxx
2nd Timothy Group
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I don't mind if I am tested by anyone. Being tested is an opportunity to share about the Power of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
In my humble opinion, my belief is that we should all desire to be tested. When there is nothing to hide, an innocent life is an amazing self-defense.
In my humble opinion, my belief is that we should all desire to be tested. When there is nothing to hide, an innocent life is an amazing self-defense.
The only proof that you share the same spirit as Jesus is if you accept and believe in his teachings without changing, manipulating or compromising them, apply them to your life and finally, teach others accurately, without compromise.
Luke 10:1, 9 & 17 – After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go…9 Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’…17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
At this point, the Holy Spirit had not yet come since Jesus had not been glorified (death and resurrection). However, these men were casting out demons and healing the sick.
Matthew 10:1-4, 7-8 – Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness.
2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him…7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.
Even Judas Iscariot was among those doing signs and wonders. This does not mean Judas had the Holy Spirit. These gifts are not proof of the Holy Spirit.
John 6:64, 70 & 71 – Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him…70 Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
Judas never believed in Jesus and Jesus knew from the beginning that he would betray him. Nonetheless, Judas was still sent out and had these spiritual gifts, even though he did not have the Holy Spirit.
John 13:10-11 – Jesus answered, “Those who have had a bath need only to wash their feet; their whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.” 11 For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not everyone was clean.
Spiritual gifts, even the greater ones, are not proof of the Holy Spirit.
Mark 6:7 – Calling the Twelve to him, he began to send them out two by two and gave them authority over impure spirits.
Luke 9:1-2 & 6 – When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2 and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick…6 So they set out and went from village to village, proclaiming the good news and healing people everywhere.
This is not proof of the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit had not come yet.
John 7:39 NIV – By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.
John 16:7 – But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.
The Holy Spirit is given to those who believe all of Jesus’ teachings without compromise or manipulation.
Acts 5:32 – We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Please show us from Scripture once the Holy Spirit was poured out at Pentecost any person with a "spiritual gift " that is not saved.
Regardless of the gift you have, according to the Bible, a spiritual gift is not proof that you have received the Holy Spirit. To determine whether or not you have the Holy Spirit, you must adhere to a certain set of beliefs which are the teachings of Jesus without compromising or manipulating them.
The gift of prophecy is the gift you should eagerly pursue, but this gift can put you in opposition with the established church and denomination (as it was with every prophet in the Old Testament, and in the New Testament with Jesus and the Apostles). The church also understands that if you haven’t developed any spiritual gifts as a result of their teachings, you may doubt the authenticity of their doctrinal teachings and find another church or change denominations. And so, the Pentecostal church pushes speaking in tongues as irrefutable proof of the Holy Spirit.
The Apostle Paul himself states that speaking in tongues is the least of all the gifts and that we should desire the greater gifts.
1 Corinthians 12:28 – And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.
1 Corinthians 12:31 – Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.
This is because the purpose of speaking in tongues does not usually benefit the people around, as it is more of a personal edification. Unless there is someone around who can interpret (which is rare precisely due to inauthentic tongues speakers), those around you who hear, cannot grasp what you are saying and you both become foreigners to each other. For these reasons, Paul encourages us to excel in gifts that build up the church.
So you are saying God can give the spiritual gifts below to non believers ?
That is an oxymoron.
There are actually three biblical lists of the “gifts of the Spirit,” also known as spiritual gifts. The three main passages describing the spiritual gifts are Romans 12:6–8; 1 Corinthians 12:4–11; and 1 Corinthians 12:28. We could also include Ephesians 4:11, but that is a list of offices within the church, not spiritual gifts, per se. The spiritual gifts identified in Romans 12 are prophesying, serving, teaching, encouraging, giving, leadership, and mercy. The list in 1 Corinthians 12:4–11 includes the word of wisdom, the word of knowledge, faith, healing, miraculous powers, prophecy, distinguishing between spirits, speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues. The list in 1 Corinthians 12:28 includes healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. A brief description of each gift follows:
Prophecy – The Greek word translated “prophecy” in both passages properly means “a speaking forth.” According to Thayer’s Greek Lexicon, the word refers to “discourse emanating from divine inspiration and declaring the purposes of God, whether by reproving and admonishing the wicked, or comforting the afflicted, or revealing things hidden; especially by foretelling future events.” To prophesy is to declare the divine will, to interpret the purposes of God, or to make known in any way the truth of God that is designed to influence people.
Serving – Also referred to as “ministering,” the Greek word diakonian, from which we get the English “deacon,” means service of any kind, the broad application of practical help to those in need.
Teaching – This gift involves the analysis and proclamation of the Word of God, explaining the meaning, context and application to the hearer’s life. The gifted teacher is one who has the unique ability to clearly instruct and communicate knowledge, specifically the doctrines of the faith.
Encouraging – Also called “exhortation,” this gift is evident in those who consistently call upon others to heed and follow God’s truth, which may involve correction or building others up by strengthening weak faith or comforting in trials.
Giving – Gifted givers are those who joyfully share what they have with others, whether it is financial, material, or the giving of personal time and attention. The giver is concerned for the needs of others and seeks opportunities to share goods, money, and time with them as needs arise.
Leadership – The gifted leader is one who rules, presides over, or has the management of other people in the church. The word literally means “guide” and carries with it the idea of one who steers a ship. One with the gift of leadership rules with wisdom and grace and exhibits the fruit of the Spirit in his life as he leads by example.
Mercy – Closely linked with the gift of encouragement, the gift of mercy is obvious in those who are compassionate toward others who are in distress, showing sympathy and sensitivity coupled with a desire and the resources to lessen their suffering in a kind and cheerful manner.
Word of wisdom – The fact that this gift is described as the “word” of wisdom indicates that it is one of the speaking gifts. This gift describes someone who can understand and speak forth biblical truth in such a way as to skillfully apply it to life situations with all discernment.
Word of knowledge – This is another speaking gift that involves understanding truth with an insight that only comes by revelation from God. Those with the gift of knowledge understand the deep things of God and the mysteries of His Word.
Faith – All believers possess faith in some measure because it is one of the gifts of the Spirit bestowed on all who come to Christ in faith (Galatians 5:22-23). The spiritual gift of faith is exhibited by one with a strong and unshakeable confidence in God, His Word, His promises, and the power of prayer to effect miracles.
Healing – Although God does still heal today, the ability of men to produce miraculous healings belonged to the apostles of the first century church to affirm that their message was from God. Christians today do not have the power to heal the sick or resurrect the dead. If they did, the hospitals and morgues would be full of these “gifted” people emptying beds and coffins everywhere.
Miraculous powers – Also known as the working of miracles, this is another temporary sign gift which involved performing supernatural events that could only be attributed to the power of God (Acts 2:22). This gift was exhibited by Paul (Acts 19:11-12), Peter (Acts 3:6), Stephen (Acts 6:8), and Phillip (Acts 8:6-7), among others.
Distinguishing (discerning) of spirits – Certain individuals possess the unique ability to determine the true message of God from that of the deceiver, Satan, whose methods include purveying deceptive and erroneous doctrine. Jesus said many would come in His name and would deceive many (Matthew 24:4-5), but the gift of discerning spirits is given to the Church to protect it from such as these.
Speaking in tongues – The gift of tongues is one of the temporary “sign gifts” given to the early Church to enable the gospel to be preached throughout the world to all nations and in all known languages. It involved the divine ability to speak in languages previously unknown to the speaker. This gift authenticated the message of the gospel and those who preached it as coming from God. The phrase “diversity of tongues” (KJV) or “different kinds of tongues” (NIV) effectively eliminates the idea of a “personal prayer language” as a spiritual gift.
Interpretation of tongues – A person with the gift of interpreting tongues could understand what a tongues-speaker was saying even though he did not know the language that was being spoken. The tongues interpreter would then communicate the message of the tongues speaker to everyone else, so all could understand.
Helps – Closely related to the gift of mercy is the gift of helps. Those with the gift of helps are those who can aid or render assistance to others in the church with compassion and grace. This has a broad range of possibilities for application. Most importantly, this is the unique ability to identify those who are struggling with doubt, fears, and other spiritual battles; to move toward those in spiritual need with a kind word, an understanding and compassionate demeanor; and to speak scriptural truth that is both convicting and loving.got?
Are you an active leader in a church and if so what denomination are you affiliated with ?
Thank you !
hope this helps !!!
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ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
I just went to your website and I noticed you do not have a statement of faith.
Regardless of the gift you have, according to the Bible, a spiritual gift is not proof that you have received the Holy Spirit. To determine whether or not you have the Holy Spirit, you must adhere to a certain set of beliefs which are the teachings of Jesus without compromising or manipulating them.
The gift of prophecy is the gift you should eagerly pursue, but this gift can put you in opposition with the established church and denomination (as it was with every prophet in the Old Testament, and in the New Testament with Jesus and the Apostles). The church also understands that if you haven’t developed any spiritual gifts as a result of their teachings, you may doubt the authenticity of their doctrinal teachings and find another church or change denominations. And so, the Pentecostal church pushes speaking in tongues as irrefutable proof of the Holy Spirit.
The Apostle Paul himself states that speaking in tongues is the least of all the gifts and that we should desire the greater gifts.
1 Corinthians 12:28 – And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.
1 Corinthians 12:31 – Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.
This is because the purpose of speaking in tongues does not usually benefit the people around, as it is more of a personal edification. Unless there is someone around who can interpret (which is rare precisely due to inauthentic tongues speakers), those around you who hear, cannot grasp what you are saying and you both become foreigners to each other. For these reasons, Paul encourages us to excel in gifts that build up the church.
So I have a question for you. Who is God, can you please define who God is and include Jesus in your statement so I know your position on the Son. I read your fathers/sons article and it appears from that article that only the Father is God. Is that correct ? yes or no.
Thank you !
Nancy
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"Who is God, can you please define who God is and include Jesus in your statement "
That is the question that could either set this post straight or on it's end...?
I don't mind if I am tested by anyone. Being tested is an opportunity to share about the Power of God and the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
In my humble opinion, my belief is that we should all desire to be tested. When there is nothing to hide, an innocent life is an amazing self-defense.
I hear you 2nd Tim! Used to be we had "accountability" partners. Now...no such thing since I've not even heard that term in ages!
All it really was, was that folks would chose a partner within the church to speak with throughout the week, between gatherings. Did not matter who called who but the idea was to share our struggles, pray for one another and to confess our sins to, so we are held accountable in this way. Some Christians realllly hold in an awful lot of stuff in fear of how they will be received, or...not? We chose ones we trusted and were comfortable enough around to be able to say these things to without fear of being rejected.
This is something that is, like gone! Do any of you here, who attend a church that still practices this?
Paul Christensen
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The point here is that having the physical presence of Jesus Himself make it unnecessary to have the Holy Spirit's presence at the same time. Jesus gave the disciples direct authority to cast out devils and heal the sick for the specific mission that He gave them to perform in the towns and villages. Jesus said later that He had to go away so that the Holy Spirit could come to them, because the Holy Spirit came to the church to represent Jesus - that having the Holy Spirit is the same as having Jesus. There is no need for a representative if the person is actually present. But when Jesus was ascended to sit at the right hand of the Father, this made the way open for the Holy Spirit to come to church and to continue the commission to go into all the world and make disciples.
2nd Timothy Group
Well-Known Member
Great post, Nancy! To be honest with you, I've been attending "church" my entire life (currently 53 years old) and not one of them resembles the church in Thessalonica. My experience is that I have yet to find any True Christian; I have yet to meet any True Christian that does what the Bible says a True Christian does. However, what I do find is a lot of people, even my old "family" who doesn't care at all if I was dead or alive. My Christian family is filled with missionaries, pastors, elders, preachers wives, elders wives, preachers kids . . . one of them even ran a mission in Seattle. None of them possess the actual Love of God within them. Bible is clear . . . anyone who possesses the Indwelling Holy Spirit . . . they [will be] Enabled and Cause to believe a certain way and act a certain way. What else can it mean to be "controlled by the Spirit?"
The way I see it is like this: this idea of the Holy Remnant being very, very small . . . it still is!
Romans 11:3-4 NLT - 3 "LORD, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me, too." 4 And do you remember God's reply? He said, "No, I have 7,000 others who have never bowed down to Baal!"
Paul reminds us of how alone Elijah actually was . . . there were only 7,000 who had received the same Blessings that Abraham and Sarah were given. Only 7,000 in the entire world who had been granted the same Faith as Abraham? This means that all of those who were worshipping throughout the world, nearly every single one of them were worshipping falsely. This means that nearly every person alive is blind and cannot see . . . this means that nearly every "christian" alive today is apostate. To be right with God, our Hearts must be made right with God; and this is a Work of the Holy Spirit. We must experience True Circumcision of the Heart; which is the same Faith that Abraham had!
Romans 2:28-29 NLT - "For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. 29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."
But your ears are open, Nancy. You have proven at least to me, that you desire the Truth. That cannot happen if you're still under the Curse of Adam and Eve. You have received the Promises and Blessings of Abraham! You have been Enabled to Believe, Repent, possess Hope and obey! All of these are the Work of Christ and His accompanying Holy Spirit. THAT is why I believe in you.
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Regardless of the gift you have, according to the Bible, a spiritual gift is not proof that you have received the Holy Spirit. To determine whether or not you have the Holy Spirit, you must adhere to a certain set of beliefs which are the teachings of Jesus without compromising or manipulating them.
The gift of prophecy is the gift you should eagerly pursue, but this gift can put you in opposition with the established church and denomination (as it was with every prophet in the Old Testament, and in the New Testament with Jesus and the Apostles). The church also understands that if you haven’t developed any spiritual gifts as a result of their teachings, you may doubt the authenticity of their doctrinal teachings and find another church or change denominations. And so, the Pentecostal church pushes speaking in tongues as irrefutable proof of the Holy Spirit.
The Apostle Paul himself states that speaking in tongues is the least of all the gifts and that we should desire the greater gifts.
1 Corinthians 12:28 – And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.
1 Corinthians 12:31 – Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.
This is because the purpose of speaking in tongues does not usually benefit the people around, as it is more of a personal edification. Unless there is someone around who can interpret (which is rare precisely due to inauthentic tongues speakers), those around you who hear, cannot grasp what you are saying and you both become foreigners to each other. For these reasons, Paul encourages us to excel in gifts that build up the church.
Wonderful post @Amos Ministries ,
sometimes there seems to be a disconnect with the gifts of the Spirit. I do know some who profess that if one doesn't have a "sign gift"...you know... the signs and wonders" kind of thing we "see" with our physical eyes, watch, and physical ears "hear", many go 'ooh and aah' but IMHO, really miss the mark where the whole being and Character of Jesus and of the Spirit of God...God's own Image, or imprint! and His fruits are concerned. These are what really make up a true church, IMHO! Love for one another, that shows our love for Him.
_____ <---- Sig. verse,
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
agree with your sign gift comments above unfortunately its true especially in charismatic circles.Wonderful post @Amos Ministries ,
sometimes there seems to be a disconnect with the gifts of the Spirit. I do know some who profess that if one doesn't have a "sign gift"...you know... the signs and wonders" kind of thing we "see" with our physical eyes, watch, and physical ears "hear", many go 'ooh and aah' but IMHO, really miss the mark where the whole being and Character of Jesus and of the Spirit of God...God's own Image, or imprint! and His fruits are concerned. These are what really make up a true church, IMHO! Love for one another, that shows our love for Him.
_____ <---- Sig. verse,
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Great post, Nancy! To be honest with you, I've been attending "church" my entire life (currently 53 years old) and not one of them resembles the church in Thessalonica. My experience is that I have yet to find any True Christian; I have yet to meet any True Christian that does what the Bible says a True Christian does. However, what I do find is a lot of people, even my old "family" who doesn't care at all if I was dead or alive. My Christian family is filled with missionaries, pastors, elders, preachers wives, elders wives, preachers kids . . . one of them even ran a mission in Seattle. None of them possess the actual Love of God within them. Bible is clear . . . anyone who possesses the Indwelling Holy Spirit . . . they [will be] Enabled and Cause to believe a certain way and act a certain way. What else can it mean to be "controlled by the Spirit?"
The way I see it is like this: this idea of the Holy Remnant being very, very small . . . it still is!
Romans 11:3-4 NLT - 3 "LORD, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me, too." 4 And do you remember God's reply? He said, "No, I have 7,000 others who have never bowed down to Baal!"
Paul reminds us of how alone Elijah actually was . . . there were only 7,000 who had received the same Blessings that Abraham and Sarah were given. Only 7,000 in the entire world who had been granted the same Faith as Abraham? This means that all of those who were worshipping throughout the world, nearly every single one of them were worshipping falsely. This means that nearly every person alive is blind and cannot see . . . this means that nearly every "christian" alive today is apostate. To be right with God, our Hearts must be made right with God; and this is a Work of the Holy Spirit. We must experience True Circumcision of the Heart; which is the same Faith that Abraham had!
Romans 2:28-29 NLT - "For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. 29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."
But your ears are open, Nancy. You have proven at least to me, that you desire the Truth. That cannot happen if you're still under the Curse of Adam and Eve. You have received the Promises and Blessings of Abraham! You have been Enabled to Believe, Repent, possess Hope and obey! All of these are the Work of Christ and His accompanying Holy Spirit. THAT is why I believe in you.
Thanks David!
"My experience is that I have yet to find any True Christian; I have yet to meet any True Christian that does what the Bible says a True Christian does."
Neither has anyone found this, I would imagine. I have not either. It's disturbing to say the least and, ... very few indeed!
I am sorry to hear of your family woes. Such tragedy, division and hatred in so many families. That is why I love to know if my earthly family let's me down? I always trust, hope and take comfort knowing that my "true" family, my "spiritual" forever family will always be there to help encourage and prayer, strength. it is different on a computer, sure yet...it still does fill a need for many of us on here.
"our Hearts must be made right with God; and this is a Work of the Holy Spirit. We must experience True Circumcision of the Heart; which is the same Faith that Abraham had!
"Amen brother, but...will He "find faith on the earth when He returns..."?
In my own life, probably the biggest prayer for growth is "faith". Yes, it does send us testing's and trials but it ALSO allows us to see how He was working all along in hindsight which, in turn will strengthen and grow our faith! Amen? He did it before, He will do it again kind of lesson? And, since God cannot be pleased without faith...isn't it an awesome thing to see how it grows us, seemingly pretty slow at times but, His timing is perfect so we can "rest in that faith"...His peace, so calming, nothing to describe it as there are no words as, it's a peace that surpasses knowledge! ... Philippians 4:7
So, "faith building" should be very important to all of us
"And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."
For sure bro! This is where many fall into sin. Pastors, teachers, priests, right along with us simple folk, lol... God can and DOES use the "simple"...So, there is a need to pray for all of them to be strong in "faith"...well, there that word goes again!!
"you desire the Truth. "
Yes I do.
"But your ears are open, Nancy. You have proven at least to me, that you desire the Truth. That cannot happen if you're still under the Curse of Adam and Eve. You have received the Promises and Blessings of Abraham! You have been Enabled to Believe, Repent, possess Hope and obey! All of these are the Work of Christ and His accompanying Holy Spirit. THAT is why I believe in you.
"Thank you my friend, so nice of you to say/type/think...lol. I now see what you meant when you said "I believe in you" in another post, or email? Hahaha..getting more and more forgetful!
God's blessings aplenty! And, prayers that He restore your family relations as..."Nothing is impossible for Him"
nancy
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Paul Christensen
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I think a word of caution is needed when it comes to looking at others in the church and judging them by their outward appearance. "I haven't yet met any real Christians" is an interesting comment, because neither have I, and I don't see a perfect Christian when looking in the mirror either! All I see is a sinner who needed Christ to die for me on the cross and for God to save me by His grace, giving me saving faith to embrace Christ.
The danger is becoming like the Pharisee who worshiped in the Temple and extolled his own virtues and how he kept the law, while he was thankful he was not like "that publican" who was an obvious sinner in his view. Of course the Pharisee did not see into the publican's heart and did not hear the publican's prayer 'God forgive me a sinner".
We can make the mistake of praising our own virtues: "I pray every day; read through the whole Bible at least once a year; have the victory over my besetting sins; rule my home and children well; have the ability to teach sound doctrine; am being invited to become an elder of the church; and my morality is second to none. I'm so thankful I don't have to get counselling for guilt over failings and shortcomings, I don't use cuss words like that fellow over there; I don't go drinking with the boys on Friday nights like some here; I'm careful with my diet, not like those fat guys in the second row. They must be gluttons to be as fat as they are. I've seen them hoeing into the food during our pot luck dinners. I don't gossip like those old bags on the back row; nor do I criticise and moan like some of the deacons. I have doubts that there are any real Christians, like me, in this church."
What one may not see are the many others in the church whose constant prayer is: "Lord, I know I should be a better Christian than I am at present, but, forgive me, a sinner, and don't give me up as a bad job, but keep me in the faith by your grace, and I trust that your Holy Spirit will give me greater strength to overcome my shortcomings and failures".
So, who do you think that God sees as a "real" Christian?
The danger is becoming like the Pharisee who worshiped in the Temple and extolled his own virtues and how he kept the law, while he was thankful he was not like "that publican" who was an obvious sinner in his view. Of course the Pharisee did not see into the publican's heart and did not hear the publican's prayer 'God forgive me a sinner".
We can make the mistake of praising our own virtues: "I pray every day; read through the whole Bible at least once a year; have the victory over my besetting sins; rule my home and children well; have the ability to teach sound doctrine; am being invited to become an elder of the church; and my morality is second to none. I'm so thankful I don't have to get counselling for guilt over failings and shortcomings, I don't use cuss words like that fellow over there; I don't go drinking with the boys on Friday nights like some here; I'm careful with my diet, not like those fat guys in the second row. They must be gluttons to be as fat as they are. I've seen them hoeing into the food during our pot luck dinners. I don't gossip like those old bags on the back row; nor do I criticise and moan like some of the deacons. I have doubts that there are any real Christians, like me, in this church."
What one may not see are the many others in the church whose constant prayer is: "Lord, I know I should be a better Christian than I am at present, but, forgive me, a sinner, and don't give me up as a bad job, but keep me in the faith by your grace, and I trust that your Holy Spirit will give me greater strength to overcome my shortcomings and failures".
So, who do you think that God sees as a "real" Christian?
@Christophany I very much agree; the conformity of a life and profession with Scripture is the read yardstick.
2nd Timothy Group
Well-Known Member
Easy . . .
Romans 2:28-29 NLT - "For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. 29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God's Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise from God, not from people."
I'm not saying that True Christians do not exist. I'm merely saying that in the circle, or perhaps type of churches I have attended, I haven't met anyone with a Transformed Heart, produced by God's Spirit, so as to grant them even a hint of a Romans 12:2 Transformation story.
Sorry that you find fault in what I wrote. However, if you've walked in my shoes . . .
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“ nobody can say “ Jesus is Lord” unless the have the Holy Spirit within them”
1Cor12:3
I heard about a guy that got water baptized because he thought it would help him “ get lucky” with a pretty girl in the church that he attended .....
One must be sincere when following the Ordinances Of God and Only God knows the heart.....
Btw......the “ guy” looking for a little “ action” was the Great Evangelist , Oliver Greene.....
Nancy
Well-Known Member
Hello Paul,
I'm sure 2ndTim did not actually mean that he is above others, and for sure, neither am I! I know where he is coming from as, I too, and many other folks have not seen the love of Christ in so many of our brothers and sisters. It all seems to be criticizing or judging "wrongly", shunning, not including, just plain cliquey. Of course no human on earth today is perfect and if they say they are, they are lying.
And yes indeed, we MUST be very, very careful when trying to take the splinter out of a bro or sis's eye...to be sure we ourselves do not have a whole forest sticking out of our own
So no, not judging in the way you are saying but YES, judging rightly when a brother or sister is not acting like one. We are not to EVER judge those "without" the church. But...within the Church?? What of the people who fall through the cracks and become ignored because they just do not "fit in" with the cliques? I should think the leaders of said church should be aware of these things but...to my knowledge, and experience, this is not so.So in a way, YES, we (or at least I) AM judging those within as, John 13:35 seems to be missing from their bibles...
The "gathering of the brethren" should include all congregants but the simple truth is that, it does not. Unless one is on the receiving end of the nastiness of MANY Christians, they have no clue nor idea of what it can be like so yes, I do judge them in that area. Pray for them? Of course, pray for the fullness of His "unity", all the time! Who knows, maybe if the church doors ever open again, congregations will have more of an appreciation for their bro's and sisters...ALL of them.
I'm not looking to argue, or even debate this further as, I know that I never, ever place myself above others but, cannot say that about all on here. There is more of God's love in the pinky fingertips of so many poor countries than whole congregations in the developed countries! Jesus COMMANDED us to love one another and, I do so hope one day to see it for real.
Sorry if I sound a bit sensitive with this subject of "loving" but that is because, well i am a sensitive person!
Love you bro!
ChristisGod
Well-Known Member
Indeed I'm reminded of 1 Corinthians 13This is true Pat, but I don't necessarily recognize a true Christian, no matter what sensational type gift they have as, they can have every one of them but, without Love...? I pray in the spirit in my own language, I walk in the spirit as a natural human being walks, I worship in the spirit with hands and voice raised but...I have no specific spiritual "gift" to prove to men that I am God's, EXCEPT for the "fruits" of the Spirit. If there is any gift from him, for myself, it would be the gift of "helps", giving, possibly discernment in recognizing red flags, and encouragement, nothing "sensational" and that's just fine with me as, we believe without seeing I thought...
So, I know many on here now and in times past would call me un-saved and that is their prerogative to do so, I need to prove not a thing to men. Only to God
xxx
If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.
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