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DPMartin

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Be serious, he wouldn't even eat the king's food.

that's what was documented but not all of a life lived is. and Danial and his friend would have starved if he refused to eat what was provided and if my memory serves Daniel did agree to eat that which was given to everyone else there if it was a problem to receive what was requested. so no your wrong about your assumptions that the Lord is a flutter about His law. besides its now known (and always has been known by the faithful) that the righteousness of the law is acquired by faith not works.
 

Marymog

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Don’t you see how this lends a tremendous new spiritual dimension to the keeping of the Sabbath? It memorializes our personal salvation experience. It stands as a blessed weekly reminder of the continual rest from sin that we may have through Christ. No wonder the Sabbath “remains” for the people of God! Our Creator has made it a symbol of the sweetest spiritual blessings available to the human family.

We can understand why God did this when we pause to think how Sabbath-keeping parallels the salvation experience. What really makes something holy? In Isaiah 58:13 God calls the Sabbath “my holy day” and “a delight.” Listen! It is the presence of God in something which makes it holy. (Remember the burning bush?) God’s presence is in the Sabbath just as His presence is also manifest in the life of a genuine Christian. So why should not true Sabbath-keeping be made a memorial of true salvation in Christ?

It is no happenstance that the same Hebrew word, CHASID, is used in Isaiah 58:13 to describe the Sabbath (“my HOLY day”) and also in Leviticus 19:2 to describe God’s people (“Ye shall be HOLY”). He dwells in the Sabbath, and He dwells in His people as a sanctifying influence, hence both are called “holy.” This is why God made the Sabbath, from the beginning, a sign of sanctification. “Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the Lord that sanctify them” (Ezekiel 20:12). The New International Version says, “so they would know that I the Lord made them holy.”

Lest someone raise the stale argument that the Sabbath is only a sign of holiness for the Jews, let me hasten to add this inspired text: “if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Galatians 3:29). All born-again Christians are the true Israel today, and have been sanctified unto God. therefore, the Sabbath is for them.

This sign of sanctification has been reaffirmed in the New Testament by Paul’s dramatic statement in Hebrews 4:9, 10 that the keeping of the Sabbath remains for God’s people. Because we have entered into His spiritual rest of salvation (“Be ye holy”), he declares that we should ALSO rest from our works, “AS GOD DID FROM HIS” (“my holy day”).

Someone might suggest that after we enter into spiritual rest there would be no need to observe the memorial of it by keeping the Sabbath physically. But if that were true, we would have to also stop practicing water baptism. Immersion memorializes our death to the old man of sin. We experience that conversion BEFORE entering the water to be baptized. If the physical observance is unnecessary just because we have had the spiritual symbolism fulfilled in us, then we should abandon the physical custom.

Further, we would have to renounce the practice of celebrating the Lord’s Supper. It also memorializes an experience of the heart in receiving the sacrifice of our Lord by faith. But should we give up the physical observance of the communion just because we have already entered into the spiritual joy of what it represents? Of course not! Then why should anyone suggest that the Sabbath not be observed physically just because it is used as a memorial of union with Christ? Paul says that it REMAINS as a Sabbath rest for the people of God. In their monumental Commentary On the Whole Bible, Jamieson, Fausset and Brown make this comment on Hebrews 4:9, “This verse indirectly establishes the obligation of the Sabbath still” (page 449). It is most interesting that these Sunday-keeping theological scholars, with the highest of linguistic credentials, make such a statement. Yet the relationship of the spiritual rest of salvation and the physical Sabbathkeeping is undeniable in the context.

So how can we summarize our discoveries about the two laws? Surely it has been established that the Ten Commandments were in a different category than the temporary mosaic law of ordinances. That moral code, encased in the ark of testimony, like the rest of the wilderness sanctuary, was a copy of the true pattern in heaven. So we affirm that it not only was repeated and reinforced in the New Testament but was identified in John’s vision beneath the mercy seat in the heavenly sanctuary, from which Christ ministers His own blood for the transgression of that holy law. From that foundational position, it continues to be the basis for Christ’s intercessory ministry for us in the throne room of heaven. Therefore, it is established as the most unmovable and unchangeable of all God’s decrees.
So you follow the man Joe Crews? Or is it the SDA church you follow? Both?

Curious Mary
 

2nd Timothy Group

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People love to say this, and what they usually mean is that, until Sinai, we didn't know what sin is. I don't know exactly who "we" includes but the topic of "sin" is found throughout the book of Genesis and God's people at that time (long before Sinai) seemed to know what "sin" was, including Cain (Genesis 4:7), Joseph (Genesis 39:9), Jacob (Genesis 31:36), Abraham (Genesis 18:20-33), and even Abimelech, the heathen king of Gerar (Genesis 20:6-9).

Hey Barny!

You directed me to post #75, which this is. I'm not sure why, but I will say that it is True, that people of the Old Testament didn't fully know of all the ways that they could sin, which is why the Bible speaks of unintentional sinning. Also, I find it amazing that Judah was unaware that sleeping with a prostitute was a sin, which he thought he was doing when he attempted to pay for the sexual services of his daughter-in-law, Tamar. However, after causing her to become pregnant, a woman whom he fully believed was a straight up hooker, he called for her to be stoned to death. That is amazing! A woman cannot become pregnant without marriage, but he, Judah, a man who carries the Holy Seed of Christ, he did not know that hooking up with a prostitute was wrong. This, of course, is before the Law of Moses had been given.

Genesis 38:24-26 NLT - "About three months later, Judah was told, "Tamar, your daughter-in-law, has acted like a prostitute. And now, because of this, she's pregnant." "Bring her out, and let her be burned!" Judah demanded. 25 But as they were taking her out to kill her, she sent this message to her father-in-law: "The man who owns these things made me pregnant. Look closely. Whose seal and cord and walking stick are these?" 26 Judah recognized them immediately and said, "She is more righteous than I am, because I didn't arrange for her to marry my son Shelah." And Judah never slept with Tamar again."

The Book of Jubilees teaches us that it wasn't until after Judah had slept with Tamar that the command was given that a man could not have sex with a daughter-in-law . . . pretty scary (If you were Judah)! How much more, then, would it be wrong to sleep with a prostitute? Yes, slowly the Laws of God were being issued before the Laws of Moses were.

Jubilees 41:26 - "And do thou command the children of Israel that there be no uncleanness amongst them, for every one who lies with his daughter-in-law or with his mother-in-law hath wrought uncleanness; with fire let them burn the man who has lain with her, and likewise the woman, and He will turn away wrath and punishment from Israel."
 

Ronald David Bruno

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There is a strange belief on the part of many that the great God-written law of the Ten Commandments was actually a part of the ceremonial law of Moses which contained scores of specific regulations. They do not see the decalogue as being distinct and totally unique because of its divine authorship. Neither do they see the clear limitation which the Bible sets for this moral code by calling it the TEN Commandments.

It seems quite obvious that one would effectively do away with the “Ten Commandments” by mingling them with ninety or a hundred others and calling them “ordinances” instead of commandments. Such a radical effort has been made to dilute the force of the only words of the Bible which God wrote with His own hand. Furthermore, the claim has been advanced that since the Ten Commandments were a part of the mosaic law of ordinances which ended at the cross, we are no more obligated to obey the decalogue than we are to offer lambs in sacrifice.

Is there proof positive in the Scriptures that there was no such blending of the ceremonial and moral law into one? Can it be shown that the Ten Commandments were of a permanent, perpetual nature while the ceremonial law of statutes and ordinances came to an end when Jesus died? Indeed there is abundance of evidence to answer these questions with a resounding yes!

God made known this distinction to His servant Moses, and Moses explained it to the people at Mt. Horeb. “And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the Lord commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it” (Deuteronomy 4:13, 14).

Please notice how Moses clearly separated the Ten Commandments, which “he commanded you,” from the statutes which “he commanded me” to give the people. The big question now is whether those statutes and judgments, which Moses passed on to the people, were designated as a separate and distinct “law.”

God answers that important question in such a way that no doubt can remain. “Neither will I make the feet of Israel move any more out of the land which I gave their fathers; only if they will observe to do according to all that I have commanded them and according to all the law that my servant Moses commanded them” (2 Kings 21:8). Here we are assured that the statutes which Moses gave the people were called a “law.” Any child can discern that two different laws are being described. God speaks of the law “I commanded” and also the “law ... Moses commanded.” Unless this truth is understood properly, limitless confusion will result.
The Ten Commandments were the beginning, the foundation of the Law which amounted to 613 laws. The Law gives us an idea of what sin is and so the Ten Commandments aren't abolished, they remain there for the world to understand what sin is. As far as the other commandments in the Torah, they do not apply to Christians. There were "Thou shalt not ... laws" Thou shall ... laws, religious laws for ceremonies and Sabbaths, civil laws, family laws, slavery laws and international laws. They were grouped into codes and categorized. Sometimes the word "Law" refers to the entire Old Testament but mainly it meant the Torah, given by God through Moses. The Jews had a burden of trying to keep these laws to say the least but that was "the way" that they needed to conform to throughout that age. God gave them laws because He loved them. These morals, statutes and principles protected them from each other. They shined the light on sin. Jesus brought a "new way". Since man could not keep God's Law, and His Chosen Nation was the test for man and they failed, Jesus came and fulfilled the requirements of the Law. And btw, He is our Sabbath, the Lord of the Sabbath, in Whom we rest.
He gave us two commandments that all other laws fall under. We abide by these commandments, not that they save us, but because they are good for us. Jesus saves us, He died for us. He said, "Come to Me, all who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is comfortable, and My burden is light.” Matthew 11:28-30
His Yoke is easy, He took the burdens of all those laws.
God also gave a "thou shalt not" commandment that some seem to overlook: "Therefore, no one is to act as your judge in regard to food and drink, or in respect to a festival or a new moon, or a Sabbath day—" Col. 2:16

So Barney, we all recognize that the SDA is a denomination who chooses to keep the Sabbath on Saturday and so we do not judge you in this matter -- but don't judge us! We choose to worship God freely everyday, without burden. Besides a strict Jewish Sabbath keeper would be required to keep dozens of laws prohibiting any kind of work ... as many as 250 Sabbath laws all together. So if you think you are keeping the Sabbath, that is a futile thing, a burden that they could not keep, or rarely keep.
 

2nd Timothy Group

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Galatians 3:10 NLT - "But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, "Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God's Book of the Law."

This is why Paul wrote the following:

Colossians 2:16-17 NKJV - "So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ."

Why would Paul write the above passage? Because he realized through the Torah, that all Laws (all laws) are fading away, and that through Christ these Laws would become useless compared to the Indwelling Laws of the Holy Spirit. These Spiritual Laws manifest change within the Heart of believers, whereas the written Laws could not. Paul was simply quoting the Old Testament.

Hosea 2:11 NLT - "I will put an end to her annual festivals, her new moon celebrations, and her Sabbath days--all her appointed festivals."

Why would these laws come to an end? All we have to do is look at the verses before the Colossians 2:16-17 passages above. Col 2:9-15 tell us exactly why these Laws come to an end . . . and it is because of the Circumcision of Christ. When will we understand this?

Read any translation you like, but the KJV and the NLT express these ideas better than any others . . . especially if we look at them together.

Colossians 2:9-15 NKJV - "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. 11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. 15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it."
 

quietthinker

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Christ is the transition between living by the Law of Moses and living by the Effectual Laws of the Spirit of Life. The Law was only a temporary solution to guard and protect Israel.

Galatians 3:19 NLT - "Why, then, was the law given? It was given alongside the promise to show people their sins. But the law was designed to last only until the coming of the child who was promised. God gave his law through angels to Moses, who was the mediator between God and the people."

What comes after the written Law upon tablets of stone are Spiritual Laws that will be written upon the tablets of our Hearts. These Spiritual Laws are Effectual. The Indwelling Holy Spirit Causes a person to be a specific way. Therefore, the Laws are essentially the same . . . thou shalt not kill, etc. It's just the these Spiritual Laws have the Power to convict . . . the specific Laws are the Power to Save. This is the Work of Christ.

What makes these teachings exciting is that they all point back to the Spiritual Circumcision of Abraham, and how the Covenant made with Him is the same Covenant that if fulfilled in Christ, beginning with the Day of Pentecost, where the outpouring of the Spirit meant an end to the Written Law. Once Christ died and issued the Holy Spirit to the masses, the Law of Moses completed its purpose.
The bottom line is, the laws written in our hearts are not in conflict with the laws written on stone ie, for all who have been touched by God's Spirit. Objecting to keeping the 10 commandments written on stone while speaking favourably of the law of the Spirit ie, those written in the heart, reveals a problem.

It's really not a mystery. It is the ejection of the fourth Commandment which is at the centre of the attempted rational....why not just admit it instead of going around the block to try to cross the street? The detour is only persuasive for those who love the tradition of men on this matter.

If I am in error I must ask, does coveting have a cosy corner in your reality or maybe adultery or lying.....perhaps it's other gods in the form of money or the desire for popularity?....one could bring all of the 10 into the spotlight.

If I'm correct, why the deviousness in admitting where the issue lies?
 

GerhardEbersoehn

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Colossians 2:16-19

12 While dead in your sins God who raised Christ from the dead forgave you all trespasses having quickened you together with Him. Nailing it to the cross and removing it altogether, Christ blotted out the damning law against us; and putting off and ruining the rulers and the authorities [of darkness 1:13], He publicly held them up to shame, triumphing over them in it. [If ye then be raised with Christ 3:1], THEN THEREFORE, don’t you let yourselves be judged and condemned by anyone (of the world 2:8, 20) in your eating and drinking or with regard to your eating and drinking of feast, whether of month’s or of Sabbaths’—all which shadows forth what soon must be, the BODY and SUBSTANCE OF CHRIST!

Let no man not holding to the Head [but] puffed up by his fleshly mind, who conceitedly meddles in what he knows nothing about (the mystery which is Christ 1:28), with his pretentious humility and angelic worship beguile you (with enticing words 2:4) of your reward.

Because holding to the Head nourishment being ministered, all the Body (of Christ’s Own 1:18) by joints and bands [of faith 2:12 Hosea 11:4; peace Ephesians 4:3; and charity Colossians 3:14], and knit together (in love 2:2), will grow with the growth of God.

"Don't you let yourselves be judged by anyone in regard to your eating and drinking of Christ the Substance of Sabbaths' Feast either Lord's Supper of month's or Sabbaths' Feast, which are but the shadow of what imminently must come for you holding to the Head, the Body growing with the growth of God Christ being the Nourishment ministered."


Since having resurrected from the dead "on the Sabbath in fullness of day", "Jesus having entered into his Own Rest as God in his own, He gave them Rest, so that THEREFORE A KEEPING OF SABBATH REST DAY FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD REMAINS."
 

quietthinker

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Hi Barney:

Well teh Mosaic Law as handed down by god to MOses contains 613 commands, of which 10 were written in stone. he breakdown into moral, civil and ceremonial "laws" was done by man to break down which laws governed which part of Israeli life in the Promised Land. this division was not done by god but by man and simply to show which of Gods laws governed which part of Israeli life. Butto the Jews for the most part, when "the Law" is spoken of, it is the entire Mosaic Law in thought and not just the ten .

But as for the ten commandments written by the finger of God in stone. What dos the Inspired Apostle Paul say about them?

2 Corinthians 3:7-11
King James Version

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.

11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.


See the two things Paul says?

1. The commandments in stone are a ministry of death though they are glorious!
2. The commandments in stone are a ministry of condemnation and not life.
3. The commandments in stone are done away with, so that the ministry of righteousness remains (the Holy Spirit)

hope this helps.
You have muddled the context in order to give yourself permission to dismiss the Decalogue unaware or unwilling to be aware that the Laws written in the heart of the regenerate man are not in conflict with the Laws written on stone.

The regenerate man is desirous in keeping God's Commandments...not opposed to them!
 

mjrhealth

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Hi Folks,

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. (Revelation 20:13)
You must of felt so proud...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

you know that judgement you are so wanting to be judged for

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And this bit

Mat_5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

you know salvation

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

but men love to boast

for you have rejected His grace and His righteousness for your own...

you know another bit

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Pride, its a terrible thing when a man throws away his won salvation just because he thinks He can prove to God how good a man He is, and that his works are better than our Lords,

but you have your whole denomination joining you, you wont be alone
 
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mjrhealth

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that's your objective
No, I offer if men choose to receive their choice. Christ offered men grace by faith, but He too has being rejected for mens own works so they can boast,, something to do with that great falling away.
 

quietthinker

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No, I offer if men choose to receive their choice. Christ offered men grace by faith, but He too has being rejected for mens own works so they can boast,, something to do with that great falling away.
you fool yourself mjrhealth!
 

mjrhealth

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you fool yourself mjrhealth!
Rather be a fool for Christ than a fool for man..

1Co_1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
 

BarneyFife

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You must of felt so proud...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

you know that judgement you are so wanting to be judged for

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

And this bit

Mat_5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

you know salvation

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

but men love to boast

for you have rejected His grace and His righteousness for your own...

you know another bit

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Pride, its a terrible thing when a man throws away his won salvation just because he thinks He can prove to God how good a man He is, and that his works are better than our Lords,

but you have your whole denomination joining you, you wont be alone
I can't help it if you can't/won't tell the difference between being "judged by works" and being "saved by works." By the way, you're trolling, you know.
 

mjrhealth

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I can't help it if you can't/won't tell the difference between being "judged by works" and being "saved by works." By the way, you're trolling, you know.
Funny how the truth upsets so many..... Why would God need to judge you for your work if not to save you, or is it that men love to boast, stand their proudly before God with chest puffed out, Hey God look at me look at what I did. Or did you not read this bit.


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,

I guess you would rather be judged by your works.
 

2nd Timothy Group

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If I am in error I must ask, does coveting have a cosy corner in your reality or maybe adultery or lying.....perhaps it's other gods in the form of money or the desire for popularity?....one could bring all of the 10 into the spotlight.

If I'm correct, why the deviousness in admitting where the issue lies?

Sorry, but I have no idea of what this all means. You must be responding to someone other than myself. :)
 

BarneyFife

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Funny how the truth upsets so many..... Why would God need to judge you for your work if not to save you, or is it that men love to boast, stand their proudly before God with chest puffed out, Hey God look at me look at what I did. Or did you not read this bit.


Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,

I guess you would rather be judged by your works.
Do you really think that I'm stupid enough to believe that I can get to Heaven on the merit of my own works? Really? Really?
Really?