Being "caught Up" To Christ Jesus

Many doctrines of men are being preached on what happens at Christ's second coming and our gathering to Him. Some are taught Christ is going to secretly 'rapture' us to Heaven before the tribulation, with leaving the rest of peoples on earth. Some believe only Gentile Christians are going to be raptured while Israel and the wicked are left on earth. Some who believe our gathering to Christ is after the tribulation also believe only His saints will be resurrected to Heaven while the unbelieving remain on earth in flesh bodies. Sincere Bible study on this matter reveals none of the above ideas are totally correct, but instead have pieces of God's Truth mixed in with the leaven doctrines of men.


1Thes 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

Some totally disregard Apostle Paul's teaching in 1 Cor.15 of what the resurrection is, and with what type of body it comes when covering this 1 Thess.4 Scripture. Both Scriptures must align and agree with each other though, for they both are about the same event, the raising of the dead at Christ's coming. In the 1 Thess.4 Scripture, Paul reveals that believers alive on earth shall not "prevent" (preceed per the Greek) those in Christ who have already died, those who sleep in Jesus. At the sound of the 'trump', Christ will bring the asleep saints with Him, and those saints who remain on earth still alive will then be gathered with them and The Lord.

The idea of Christ bringing those asleep saints with Him when He returns is specifically written by Apostle Paul...

1Thes 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
(KJV)

That begs the question then, just 'where' is He going to bring those alseep saints with Him to? That should immediately cause a warning flag with the doctrine of men that teaches our Lord Jesus stays where He is now at this event. Afterall, we were specifically told Christ will "descend from heaven" back at the 1 Thess.4:16 verse. But where to? Hold that thought.


1 Cor 15:51-53
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
(KJV)

In the 1 Corinthians 15 Scripture, Apostle Paul gave us more details of that event of Christ's second coming and our gathering to Him. Paul also covered the type of body that will manifest with that event of Christ's coming at the sound of the trumpet, the resurrection being about a change of those who remain on earth to a "spiritual body", a body of incorruption. And those who are dead being raised to that body of incorruption also. He also went to the depth of showing that all will put on the body of incorruption, but not all will put on immortality through Christ Jesus.

Will the wicked who are on earth at that event be changed also, but not gathered to Christ? Yes. The wicked will also go through that change at the twinkling of an eye Paul speaks of. Our Lord Jesus revealed it through His Apostle John...

John 5:26-29
26 For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself;
27 And hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man.
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(KJV)

The saints will be of the "resurrection of life", but the unjust will be of the "resurrection of damnation". That John 5 Scripture shows both groups will be raised at the same time when Christ comes, but with a separation of resurrection type. That aligns with what Paul was teaching in 1 Cor.15 that to be saved in Christ, one must go through both a change to a body of incorruption, AND a change of "this mortal" putting on "immortality". The first change is about our body. The second change is about our soul condition, for it also must be made alive through Christ, being "born again" by The Spirit.

Because there will be a "resurrection of damnation", that reveals the unjust or wicked will also be resurrected to the body of incorruption at Christ's coming, but their part that is "this mortal" will still be mortal, and liable to perish later at the end of Christ's thousand years reign in the "lake of fire" (Rev.20).


But where does our Lord Jesus return to, since Paul mentioned He will "descend from heaven", and bring the asleep saints with Him when He comes?

I have been very surprised in all Bible study groups I've attended that very few had even read the following prophecy from the Old Testament prophet Zechariah. It is about this timing of 1 Thess.4 and 1 Cor.15 about our Lord Jesus Christ's second coming, and the gathering of the saints to Him:

Zech 14:1-21
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle.

Apostles Paul and Peter especially covered this timing of the day of the LORD linking it to Christ's second coming (see 1 Thess.5; 2 Thess.2; and 2 Peter 3:10). Our Lord Jesus covered this event of armies surrounding Jerusalem in Luke 21. In Zephaniah 3, God said it is His intent to gather the nations together in order to pour out His wrath upon them. Per Ezekiel 38-39, and in Rev.16 & 19, a great army out of the northern quarters of the earth are to come upon the mountains of Israel on the last day of this present world, and God will rain down fire, brimstone, and great hail, to destroy them. This is that "battle" spoken of here in Zechariah 14. This is about Christ going forth to this earth, to earthly Jerusalem, for that battle.

4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

In Acts 1, Christ's Apostles saw Him ascend up into Heaven with clouds. After they saw it, two men (angels) asked them why they wondered, for Jesus is to come in like manner as they saw Him ascend into Heaven. They were upon the Mount of Olives; that's where our Lord Jesus ascended to Heaven from. And in Zechariah 14 we are given the manner of His return upon that same Mount of Olives on this earth.

When Christ's feet literally touch down upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem (on this earth), that mount is going to split in two parts. Half the mount will move to the north, and the other half will move to the south. It will form a great valley running east to west. Now we definitely know just where our Lord Jesus will descend from heaven to. It will be literally to the Mount of Olives which is just east of Jerusalem.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.

After that great valley of the mountains is formed by Christ's feet touching down there, that is when the saints shall flee to that spot, on earth. That is WHERE we shall be caught up to, to be with Christ Jesus forever more. But that great valley will be formed first, which will involve The Lord's wrath upon the armies gathered around Jerusalem. It involves the valley of Jehoshaphat spoken of in Joel 3:2, an area between the Temple Mount and the Mount of Olives.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

This is where our Lord Jesus was quoting from that no man knows the day of His coming, but The Father only.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and His name one.

This happens at Christ's return to this earth. He will return to earth in Person like how He ascended into Heaven. And HE only, shall be King over all the earth with no other gods. Those "living waters" is about the River of waters of Life mentioned in Ezekiel 47 and Revelation 22. That River is shown on this earth, both here in Zechariah 14, and in Ezekiel 47. It is NOT a myth, nor a spiritual slogan which doctrines of men have toyed with. It will be an actual River manifested on earth which will flow from the altar of God's House that will be there in Jerusalem with Christ's coming. It will flow east to the Dead Sea (former sea) and west to the Meditteranean Sea (hinder sea). The tree of life will manifest there with it, as per Ezekiel 47. This is not in Heaven; this is on earth, during Christ's future thousand years reign with His elect kings and priests (Rev.20).

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

That area of the "plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem" is not up in the clouds friends. It's on THIS earth we live on. When Christ comes, that area will be lifted up. Then those who dwell in Jerusalem with Christ The King will dwell in safety. Christ is coming to not only redeem His saints still alive on earth at the event, but also the Jerusalem that is upon this earth. These events reveal there will be some major earth changes in that area at Christ's return.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

This plague shall be upon all those who gather to fight against Jerusalem. God's consuming fire, the event Apostle Peter mentioned in 2 Peter 3:10 that will literally burn up the elements of man's works off this earth at the time of Christ's return, will also burn these inhabitants who fight against Jerusalem.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

When the dust has settled, all left of the nations after that event will be required to come up to Jerusalem to worship The KING Christ Jesus, and keep His feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

During Christ's Milennium reign, not all left of the nations will be willing to come up to keep the feast. This reveals there will still exist some that are rebellious in that time, given the option to obey or not to obey. It points to those outside the Holy City on earth, those who will be outside the "camp of the saints". Revelation 20:7-9 reveals that at the end of that thousand years, Satan will be loosed once more, and he will lead the rebellious upon the breadth of the earth to try and destroy the "camp of the saints" and "beloved city". Then fire from God in Heaven will rain down upon those, the beloved city being protected.

This reveals many left among the nations will still follow Satan at the end of that thousand years, and will perish with him.

What those Scriptures especially reveal, is that our Lord Jesus is coming back to this earth, even to the spot on earth where He ascended to Heaven from. And that is where our gathering to Him will be, but not in the type of bodies we have now, but in bodies of incorruption.

Here's more of what happens on that day of Christ's return.

Isa 25:6-9
6 And in this mountain shall the LORD of hosts make unto all people a feast of fat things, a feast of wines on the lees, of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined.
7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of His people shall He take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.
9 And it shall be said in that day, "Lo, this is our God; we have waited for Him, and He will save us: this is the LORD; we have waited for Him, we will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."
(KJV)

What "mountain" will The LORD make that feast? In Jerusalem, on earth. The Zechariah 14 Scripture covered that feast, the feast of tabernacles all nations that are left after His return that will be required to go up to Jerusalem from year to year and worship The KING, and keep the feast of tabernacles. It's going to be a fantastic gathering. That's when there will be true peace and righteousness on this earth.

What is that "face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations"? Notice that is associated with the next verse about, "He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces;".

1 Cor 15:54
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."
(KJV)

This Isaiah 25 Scripture is where Apostle Paul was quoting from about the "last trump" change at the "twinkling of an eye" when Christ's coming the resurrection happens.

When both our corruptible flesh body puts on incorruption (a "spiritual body), AND our "this mortal" part puts on "immortality" through Christ, then shall this Isaiah 25 event be fulfilled as written. The "face of the covering over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations" will then be removed at that time. Then death will be swallowed up in victory, as written.

Still today, that vail or covering has not yet been removed. It involves changes from our present existence on earth in the type bodies we have now. It involves the removal of a vail that divides the heavenly dimension and our present earthly dimension. That vail will be removed from all peoples, not just those in Christ Jesus. Both the just and the unjust will be changed and see Christ once that covering is removed. This reveals the Heavenly order being manifested upon this earth, in the same space and time.


Rev 7:15-17
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple: and He that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
(KJV)

We just read back in Zechariah 14 that "living waters shall go out from Jerusalem". Ezekiel 40 through 48 reveals a Temple there in Jerusalem from which those living waters will flow out from. That is God's House on earth during Christ's thousand years reign, in Jerusalem on earth. Isaiah 25:8 also mentions this time of Rev.7 when God will wipe away all tears from the eyes. Thus the Zech.14 timing is hard connected to the time when these things in Isaiah 25 and Rev.7:15-17 happen, which is right after Christ's return on the 7th trumpet (see Rev.11:15 to end of that chapter also).

So does Christ come to 'rapture' us away prior to the tribulation? No, for His coming involves a return to the Mount of Olives as written in Zech.14, and that's where our gathering to Him will be.

Are we 'raptured' up into Heaven off this earth when Christ comes, with all the wicked left-behind on earth still in flesh bodies? No, for as we learn in Zech.14, 1 Cor.15, 1 Thess.4, and in Isaiah 25, Christ's return to Jerusalem on earth will involve major changes on this earth, His River flowing out of Jerusalem, and His House being established on earth at Jerusalem. And the wicked that are left will be changed to bodies of incorruption also. We all will be in resurrection type bodies dwelling upon this earth in that time, and will be required to go up to Jerusalem year to year and worship The KING, and keep the feast of tabernacles.

Are only those in Christ Jesus resurrected at the time of His coming, with the wicked not living during His thousand years reign to be raised at the end of it? No, for as our Lord revealed in John 5, and Paul showed in 1 Cor.15, and in Acts 24:15, all shall go through the change to put on bodies of incorruption, which is the resurrection. Some will be of the "resurrection of life" through Christ ("first resurrection" of Rev.20), and the unjust will be of the "resurrection of damnation" living in shame during Christ's thousand years reign. After Christ's second coming, there will be no more death of the flesh body. The only death still existing after that will be the "second death" (Rev.20), which is those who refuse Christ having their resurrection body and still 'mortal' soul cast into the "lake of fire" at th end of the thousand years.

When the "lake of fire" event in Rev.20 is done, with death destroyed, then will come the full manifesting of the promised new heavens and a new earth.

I realize that's how many see that in Rev.20. However, our Lord Jesus showed in Scripture like John 5:29 that at the sound of His voice, ALL in the graves shall come forth (i.e., resurrected), some to the "resurrection of life", and others to the "resurrection of damnation". In Acts 24:15, Aposlte Paul said it was his "hope" there will be a resurrection of both the just, and the unjust. Why did Paul have that hope for the unjust too, if their fate was only to be resurrected at the end to be destroyed? In Matt.25 our Lord shows when He comes all nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate His sheep from the goats.

In Zechariah 14, we're given a picture of the nations being required to come up to Jerusalem to worship The KING, and keep the feast of tabernacles. Some of them won't do it. In Rev.3, our Lord said He will make those of the synagogue of Satan to come worship at the feet of His elect. In Rev.20:7-11, you should notice that the nations Satan leads upon the camp of the saints are already existing, and the great white throne judgment happens AFTER Satan leads those nations upon the beloved city.


Why all those Bible examples that seem to contradict the idea of Rev.20 you speak of? There truly is no contradiction there at all. The contradiction is with not understanding what it will mean to be "dead" in that future time.

How will those of the synagogue of Satan WORSHIP at the feet of Christ's elect, if they are only resurrected at the end of the thousand years to stand in judgment, and then immediately be thrown into the "lake of fire"?

Why did our Lord Jesus reveal the idea of those INSIDE the Holy City having right to the tree of life, WHILE the wicked are dwelling OUTSIDE the gates of the Holy City? (Rev.22:14-15). Does that align with how Satan will be able to lead the nations upon that Holy City at the end of the thousand years, per Rev.20:9? Yes.

Ezekiel 44 also shows a place of separation between the Zadok (the Just, Christ's saints), and the "dead", which actually is about their being SPIRITUALLY dead.


Luke 13:26-29
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in Thy presence, and Thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.
(KJV)

Where will those be thrust out to?? How will they "see" Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of God if they are literally still in graves?


Matt 22:11-13
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)

Matt 8:11-12
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)

If those still be literally dead in graves in that time, how can that happen?

The hope Apostle Paul had in Acts 24:15 for the resurrection of the unjust was not for their destruction, but hope that at least some of them might be saved.

Our Lord Jesus applied the idea of one who refuses Him being spiritually dead inside. And in the opposite, those who believe on The Father through Him have eternal life, and are born again of The Spirit.

The "first resurrection" of Rev.20 is about those resurrected that have eternal life through Christ Jesus, and can never be subject to the "second death". But the idea of the "dead" who live not again until the thousand years is over is about the resurrection of damnation that are still... dead inside. Because a "first resurrection" is stated, that implies at least another or second resurrection, OF THE SAME TYPE.

And again, what TYPE is the "first resurrection"? Being in Christ and not being subject to the second death, the soul putting on immortality through Christ Jesus.

In 1 Corinthians 15:53, Apostle Paul covered this idea when he revealed 2 conditions must be met to have eternal life through Christ.

1) "this corruptible must put on incorruption"

AND,

2) "this mortal must put on immortality"

Those were four separate Greek words Paul used there. The first change is our corruptible flesh body putting on incorruption. But there's another change most miss. It involves a change of "this mortal" to "immortality". That's about our soul or spiritual condition inside our self. If you are born again of The Spirit, what part of 'you' is that for, your flesh body or for your soul or spirit inside your flesh body? It is for your soul, your person, the real you that dwells inside your "earthly house" (2 Cor.5).

2 Cor 5:1-6
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Our "earthly house of this tabernacle" is about our flesh body. Paul made clear dividing lines between our spirit and our flesh body, even as the OT Scripture like Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 does, and our Lord Jesus did in John 4. The "house not made with hands" is about the body of incorruption Paul spoke of, a heavenly type house, the "spiritual body" he taught in 1 Cor.15. Now note the next distinction Paul is going to make...

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

In WHAT do "we" groan? In our earthly house. Paul makes a distinction between the "we" part of us, and the idea of a house that we groan in. That "we" is about our soul, our intellect, the real you. It is mortal (liable to die) until it puts on immortality through Christ Jesus. For those without Christ, it is still mortal, even after the change from their corruptible flesh body to incorruption. That is HOW the unjust are resurrected also, while still yet being "dead", and liable to perish in the lake of fire later.

That is how the wicked and unjust will see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, while they are thrust out into the outer darkness, outside the gates of the Holy City.

The picture that draws is those who remain in Christ will be resurrected and joined together with the asleep saints inside the "beloved city" and "camp of the saints", inside its gates, while the resurrected unjust will be in a place of separation outside the gates of the Holy City. Per Rev.20:9, that "beloved city" and "camp of the saints" is upon the breadth of the earth. Those outside that "beloved city" are those nations of Zechariah 14 that will be required to come up to Jerusalem from year to year to worship The KING (Jesus Christ), and keep the feast of tabernacles.

It's about our Lord Jesus literally ruling upon this earth with His elect kings and priests, from that Holy City on earth. All nations will be gathered around it. He only will be LORD over all the earth as written. When the events of Ezekiel 40 through 48 are understood along with that, His reign on earth then also will involve a temple in Jerusalem, and His River of the waters of life flowing out from His House on earth, to feed other waters upon the earth, with their being healed. That is about Christ putting all His enemies under His feet, and all knees will bow to Him as LORD. There won't be any misunderstanding of His Word in that time. All will understand, from the least to the greatest.

omnicopy said:

I think you have some things incorrect.

First of all, it doesn't say that those Jews who claim to be Jews but are not, people of the synagogue of satan, come and worship before Jesus' feet. Its says that they can come and worship before the true saints feet and confess that God really does love them. This is happening now. This isn't for some time in the future in the 1,000 years reign. This is just simply means that the false people in church who claim to be Christians (but aren't) can be made, by God, to come and really acknowledge that the real Christians are real. That's all. If God wants to make them do that, He can, He does, and He has already done this.

What is happening there in the 7 churches in Revelation isn't happening during the 1,000 year reign, that happens on earth before the 1,000 year reign.

Kim

Click to expand...

Rev 3:9-11
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
(KJV)

Sorry, I can't agree with you on that Kim, for the "synagogue of Satan" our Lord pointed to represents the seat of His enemies and our enemies, upon this earth, the servants of the devil. Our Lord was pointing to the "crept in unawares" of the Book of Jude, to the "tares" of Matthew 13. Those have not bowed in worship to Christ yet, and it won't happen until Christ returns to take complete reign over this earth, granted that even a tare can turn to Christ Jesus and believe on Him, and become a child of God again. As a whole, they have not bowed to Him yet, and that's part of what the thousand years is about.

Jude 1:4
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
(KJV)

As for what the 7 Churches represent, our Lord Jesus told us back at the end of Rev.1 the seven candlesticks are the seven churches. The candlesticks represent a Heavenly structure for Christ's Churches on earth. Our Lord's Messages to them in Revelation are also Messages for all Churches existing to the end of this world. Each Church today will fit one of those seven examples. That's why our Lord Jesus included in those Messages events about the end of this world leading up to His return, and that Message about Satan's servants, the "synagogue of Satan".

omnicopy said:

Rev. 3:9 Behold, I will make them of tte synagogoue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worhsip before THY feet, and to know the I have loved THEE.

This is talking about all the false christians today, that God does have the power of making them come to us and confess that we are truly of God after all their persecutions to us. I am not wrong. God can make the false chrisitians do this to us.

KIm

Click to expand...

I wish it were that simple. There are people in this world who hate God, literally hate Him. It's important to come to terms with that, because some will never turn to Him, and I'm not speaking of deceived Christian brethren at all.

There are wicked upon this earth today that literally worship the devil, and know the difference between Christ and Satan, and are accountable. The "workers of iniquity" is not about people that are deceived. They rebel against God of their own choice full knowing Who God and His Christ is.

That group will exist throughout Christ's future thousand years reign on earth too (which is what the synagogue of Satan bowing in worship per Rev.3 is about). At the end, many of them will still choose eternal damnation instead of allowing God and His Christ to have authority over them. They would rather perish, and will still choose rebellion. They will perish by their own choice.

It is my hope, like the hope Apostle Paul had, that there will be a resurrection of the unjust too when Christ comes (Acts 24:15). In that I see a time during Christ's thousand years reign when all confusion and deceit will be taken away, and even they will know the Truth, and at least some of them might possibly turn back to God.

Adstar said:

Oh well i did not really expect you to be moved veteran.

If one reads the chapter before Rev 20 they will see detailed the second coming of the Messiah Jesus, this happens before the things that are revealed in chapter 20.

This is the return of the Messiah Jesus and the battle of Armageddon.

Revelation 19
11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron.

(Now if he judges them and casts them all into the lake of fire at this time then He cannot be ruling them with a Rod of Iron. Unless you think Jesus is going to rule over the resurrected saints with an Iron Rod? No he will not rule over us with force as detailed in the OT, where it reveals that they will be forced to come to Jerusalem every year to worship and if the don't they will be hit with famine and a plague)

The day of the Messiah's return revealed in the OT:
Zechariah 14
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
6 It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish.
7 It shall be one day
Which is known to the LORD—
Neither day nor night.
But at evening time it shall happen
That it will be light.
8 And in that day it shall be
That living waters shall flow from Jerusalem,
Half of them toward the eastern sea
And half of them toward the western sea;
In both summer and winter it shall occur.
9 And the LORD shall be King over all the earth.
In that day it shall be—

“ The LORD is one,”
And His name one.

( Now we skip a few verses and go to verse 14 to hear what being ruled by an Iron Rod means)

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.


(Back to finish Revelation 19 and the second coming of the Messiah Jesus and the battle of Armageddon.

Revelation 19
He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.


17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great.”
19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

So Jesus has defeated the army of the beast and cast the beast and the false prophet into the eternal Lake of Fire.

Now we ship to the next battle mentioned . it is in Revelation 20 a battle after the battle of Armageddon

Revelation 20

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison

(satan is cast into the bottomless pit after the return of the Messiah Jesus now after 1000 years he is released )

Revelation 20
8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

(So satan leads the nations to invade the millennial kingdom of Jesus note the saints are near Jerusalem in their camp they have been there for 1000 years)

Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

(Note where it says that the beast and the false prophet are already in the lake of fire. They are still there 1000 years After the battle of Armageddon, Now we continue and see the actual final judgement. It is not at the return of the Messiah Jesus. But after 1000 years after satan is released from the bottomless pit to go out and deceive the nations who will be being ruled by Jesus and the saints with an Iron Rod. Very next verse )

Revelation 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.


The wonderful book of Revelation reveals what will happen in chronological order. Read it as it is written with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and you will see.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

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I agree with every bit of that. And I think if you go back and cover my earlier posts you'll see I'm actually giving a greater 'detail' picture of that order you've written. If I were to put it in a chronological list, it would be like this:

1- Christ's coming, Armageddon, and gathering of His saints to Jerusalem (on earth).
2- beast and false prophet destroyed; Satan locked in the pit.
3- Christ and His priests and kings rule from the Holy City in Jerusalem (on earth) over those left of the nations that came against Jerusalem (shows resurrection of the unjust happened at Christ's coming too)
4- After the thousand years, Satan is loosed to lead the rebellious of the nations of Gog and Magog against the "beloved city" and "camp of the saints", and they are destroyed by God's fire; devil cast into the lake of fire.
5- White throne judgment happens, a second resurrection for those who turn to Christ during the thousand years, but the rebellious cast into the lake of fire with death, and the abode of hell.

I believe the great white throne judgment time will manifest another group who's names will be found in the Book of Life, coming to Christ during the Milennium time. That is my hope in Christ Jesus.

Guess I have to repeat what our Lord Jesus said...

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
(KJV)

All of that will happen at the time of Christ's return. There is no addition of a thousand years written there in between that.

Being raised from the dead does NOT mean automatic Salvation in Christ. The idea of the resurrection at Christ's coming is not just about the saved in Christ Jesus. It's also about that "resurrection of damnation" at that same time too. Those do not wait it out in graves to the end of the thousand years, for that idea is not written there in John 5.

Zech.14:16 reveals that those left of the nations that came up against Jerusalem when Christ returns will be required from year to year DURING the thousand years to come up to Jerusalem and worship The KING, and keep the feast of tabernacles. There is no way they could do that at that time unless they also are resurrected at the time of Christ's coming. They too will be resurrected when Christ comes.

Our Lord Jesus also revealed this in His story of Lazarus and the rich man of Luke 16. Both, Lazarus and the rich man died. Lazarus was carried to one side of a great gulf fixed border in the Heavenly, and the rich man was carried to the pit of Hell. Per our Lord's account there BOTH were raised from the dead.

Just as there is an earthly prison that serves as a place of separation for the lawless, likewise there is a Heavenly prison (hell) that serves as a place of separation away from God in Heaven. During Christ's thousand years reign on earth, that prison pit of hell will still exist. The "outer darkness" is lined with that prison pit during Christ's Milennium reign on earth. Yet the "outer darkness" is simply outside the Holy City on earth where Christ and His elect will reign over them from.

That is how Satan, when he is loosed at the very end, will be able to lead the nations of Gog and Magog upon the "camp of the saints". Both will be on this earth existing at the same time.

So the idea of being raised from the dead does not mean automatic Salvation for all. Most Churches and traditions teach that the mere idea of being resurrected at Christ's coming means only the saved in Christ Jesus. The idea of the "first resurrection" in Rev.20 is about the Firstfruits resurrected unto Christ. It is a resurrection unto Salvation. The resurrection of damnation that happens at the start of the thousand years too is not.

Adstar said:

No that is not what you where preaching you said:

You said everyone will be raised from the dead and transformed into an eternal form upon the second coming of Jesus. So you where clearly saying there was no second resurrection.

But clearly The book of Revelation states about the first resurrection of the saints. Note the bolded and underlined part.

Revelation 20
Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a[a] thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.


So clearly stated only the saints will be resurrected upon the second coming of the Messiah Jesus but the rest of the dead will not live again until the thousand years have passed. And again all who take part in this first resurection are Blessed and Holy. Those who are damned are not blessed and holy.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

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That's right, I stated from John 5:28-29 that BOTH the just and the unjust are resurrected at Christ's coming, at the start of His thousand years reign. I don't see you trying to address that John 5 Scripture, but just keep quoting the Rev.20 Scripture. I know what the Rev.20 Scripture says, and I totally agree with it too.

Now it's your turn to explain what the John 5:28-29 Scripture is stating.

And also, explain the Zech.14:16 verse while you're at it please, for you agreed that Christ's rod of iron is not meant for those of the "first resurrection". Yet we're shown in Revelation that "rod of iron" Christ Himself will also give to His elect kings and priests to rule over the NATIONS with.

One cannot declare that "rod of iron" is upon the unsaved during the thousand years and also say the wicked are not resurrected until the end of the thousand years.


About the idea of a second resurrection, that is only about ANOTHER resurrection LIKE THE FIRST RESURRECTION. The "first resurrection" has nothing to do with those who will perish in the lake of fire. And nor does the implied second resurrection. Let me be clear, a second implied resurrection is about the unjust who turn to Christ DURING the thousand years. There's going to be at least one more resurrection unto eternal Life like the "first resurrection", and it will happen at the end of the thousand years.

teleiosis said:

With Him on the clouds: 1Th 3:13.

13 May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

This then begs the question: where from?

The answer is Paradise, a realm of Heaven, Abraham's bosom, a place of rest (not sleep): the first Heaven.

Mt 24:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

And I think you have mis-identified the first Resurrection in John 5. You missed this selective pair of verses:

Jn 5: 24 “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25 I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live.

The first Resurrection is only for the Living: Mt 22:32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’ ? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Where did Jesus go when He gave up His Life on the cross? Paradise (Lk 23:43).

Do we go directly to the third Heaven of God's presence when we die (Php 1;23) or do the dead in Christ have to be first resurrected as Paul taught in a more detailed tutorial in 1Co 15:42-50?

To be sure: both have us ultimately with Christ. However, after being on fire eschatologically with his first two sets of letters to the Thessalonians Paul learned not to try and feed babies meat and said so in his opeing to the Corinthians, however, it would appear he can't help himself and still talks about the "resurrection of the dead." Phillippians, written much later shows Paul has disciplined himself in teaching the young churches under his charge.

Here is what Jesus said:

Jn 14:1 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God ; trust also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Jesus says, like Paul did to the Corinthians and Thessalonians, that we are not with Him until He comes back for us.

This passage in John is indicative of another first-century Jewish custom: the wedding festival. In the many, layered events: Jesus performed His part of the Groom. He has paid the price for His Bride, and we are betrothed. However, we have not consummated the marriage. First the Groom would go back to His Father's House and make a place to live there; either a room, or an adjoining building. This is exactly the point that Jesus says he is about to do in John 14.

Then, when the time is up, usually a year, the Groom comes back for the Bride with a band of his fellows. They would come at night carrying torches and sounding trumpets. This was a big, festive affair! The Groom and His company would stop out in the street or road, and they would call out the Bride. The Bride would leave her father's house and join the band of people out in the street and she would go back with Her Groom to His Father's House! There would be a marriage ceremony, a banquet, and the "unveiling."

This second part is what we await!

Jesus will come back and meet those of us who are still alive and are left (1Th 4:17) more than halfway. He will come on the clouds and we who remain after the then-shortened Great Tribulation will be lifted up to join Jesus, the Angels, and all the Saints (Old and New Testament) whom He has resurrected from the "ends of Heaven." Then we will be taken back to Heaven where we show up as the Great Multitude. The unveiling happens after the one 'seven' is over when each of us has to give an account of our lives: Rev 11:18 ...The time has come ...for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great ...”

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Not bad, except for the point where you miss our Lord's destination per Zech.14 when He comes to gather us to Him.

And I prefer the KJV of those John 14 verses...

John 14:2-3
2 In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.
(KJV)

When Christ comes, where will He be? Zechariah 14 gives that answer, just as Paul did also in 1 Thess.4 about His descending from Heaven to the earth with clouds.

Question is, just 'where' is His destination going to be as written? What "house" was our Lord Jesus talking about there? And where is it to manifest during His thousand years reign?

The answer is: on earth, in the area of Jerusalem, for that is where Christ's Milennium Temple called a "house" in the Ezekiel 40 forward Scripture, will be located. THAT is where those many abodes for His elect will be after His return. I think there's an Appendix link on this Forum from Bullinger that gives the specific layout of all that in the future. If I recall, The area of the Holy City in total wlll cover something like 60 miles square in the area of Jerusalem.

Many totally miss that the vail is going to be cast off at Christ's coming, with the heavenly dimension revealed UPON this earth at His return, because of the twinkling of an eye change Paul taught. That doesn't mean the new heavens and a new earth timing yet, but only the start of it with the beginning of Christ's eternal reign on earth.

Adstar said:

Ok

John 5 28-29
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Where in this verse does it state a time? Where does it say at the second coming of the Messiah Jesus? It simply states that the hour is coming. And that hour is 1000 years after the second coming of the Messiah Jesus. Oh some may state well thats the judgement day that God will judge. Well we know Jesus and God are One.

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There's only one way to look at those John 5:28-29 verses, (and I include the point teleiosis made if he's reading this), and it's about the idea of the resurrection, and it's about both the "resurrection of life" and the "resurrection of damnation" happenning at the same time, for the time marker is that "hour" and when "all in the graves will hear His voice" and "come forth". Some believe (like teleiosis) that's about our Lord Jesus immediately after His Resurrection preaching to the "spirits in prison". I believe the John 5:25 verse only, could be pointing to Christ preaching to the spirits in prison. But not the John 5:28-29 verses, which are meant for the end of this world at Christ's coming. Our Lord did give another example of this event...

Matt 25:31-33
31 When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:
32 And before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
(KJV)

The time marker there is "When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him". That's about Christ's second coming, the time of His return. Then, as stated there, all nations (meaning all peoples) will be gathered before Him, and He shall separate His sheep (just) from the goats (unjust). That could not happen if that means the "goats" are not resurrected (changed) at that time too.

That particular time of the sound of "His voice" in John 5:28 is pointing to this...

1Thes 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

Yes, But not resurected people i did show you scriptures in that passage from Zech 14 here it is again.

Zechariah 14
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

So it is not Everyone other then the saints. It is Everyone who is left. Of the peoples of the nations that attacked Jerusalem in the army of the beast. Jesus is not going to exterminate the entire human race from the world during the Day of His return.

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You may not intend it, but that's part of what those on the Pre-trib "secret rapture" believe. That's like the "left-behind" idea, with some being changed at Christ's coming while others are left-behind in flesh bodies. If you believe that idea, you may as well also believe the false idea that Christ raptures His prior to the tribulation while everyone else is left-behind on earth.

Apostle Paul in 1 Cor.15 was pulling from Isaiah 25 about the time of Christ's coming and the twinkling of an eye event, and death being swallowed up in victory. He said all will not sleep, but all will be changed. Now note just how many Isaiah 25:7 is pointing to about that change...

Isa 25:7
7 And He will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations.
(KJV)

If there are still people left on earth in flesh bodies after that twinkling of an eye change, it would mean present world timing still. God has shown us many times in His Word how there is a veil existing between our earthly dimension and the heavenly dimension. He has even allowed man to 'see' angels walking upon this earth, their manifesting within our earthly dimension, and even eating man's food (Gen.18). He even gave His people to eat 'manna' from Heaven in the wilderness. That veil really shouldn't still be a mystery to God's people in our times, especially since we're fast approaching the time of Christ's return when that veil is going to be removed for all peoples and nations, to begin the thousand years, which is a heavenly type age.

Yes i can and do. It seems to me that the belief you have is based on a foundational belief that during the second coming Jesus will destroy all humanity on the earth.

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How is the coming change at a twinkling of an eye for all peoples on earth a destruction of humanity?

Well, because of what's written in both Old and New Testaments of events that will happen with the vail on that day when Christ comes, there's no way I can accept the idea you're talking about with only Christ's elect being changed at His coming while the rest of world continues in flesh bodies of this present day and world age. Comparing that idea with the Matt.25 example would mean His sheep appearing before Christ's Throne in resurrected bodies, and the goats appearing before His Throne still in flesh bodies. No, all peoples on this earth at Christ's return will be changed, like Paul showed in 1 Cor.15. And then the separation between Christ's sheep and the goats will happen. Those of Zech.14 left of the nations represent the goats.

If these people are resurrected to eternal live of condemnation at the first resurrection as you say. Then they will not die again before the second resurrection, correct.

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What's "eternal live (sic life) of condemnation"? No such thing, but there is a "resurrection of damnation" that is still a resurrection, but not unto Eternal Life through Christ. When Christ returns, and the vail cast over all nations is removed, the idea of flesh death will be over, for all. The only... type of death shown remaining after Christ's return is the "second death". Per Rev.20:15 that is the casting into the lake of fire at the end of the thousand years.

That's another matter I've covered you haven't been willing to address; the idea Paul showed in 1 Cor.15 that is linked to the "second death" idea, the matter that not only must our flesh body be change to heavenly incorruption, but our mortal soul must also put on immortality through Christ Jesus. The devil and his angels don't have flesh bodies; they have bodies of the heavenly order, yet we know they are already judged and sentenced to perish at the "second death". Why do you have such a problem in understanding the "resurrection of damnation" is only a change to the same heavenly body death state the devil and his angels are already in now?

Think about it. You cannot have a second resurrection from the dead if no one is in their graves because all have been resurrected at the first resurrection, some to eternal life and some to eternal damnation. If everyone is already resurrected at the beginning of the 1000 years then who are these dead people being resurrected 1000 years after the first resurrection.

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That's just it, it is popularly assumed... the implied second resurrection is about the unjust being raised at the end of Christ's Milennium reign. But there they are, appearing at the great white throne judgment, and they're STILL being called "the dead"...

Rev 20:12
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
(KJV)

They're STILL called "the dead" even when standing before God's Throne in judgment, because it's their soul state that is still dead, being without Christ. Their soul state is just like the devil's and his angels, which is why they go into the lake of fire. It doesn't mean they have to have flesh bodies to be in that dead soul state, even as the devil and his angels don't have flesh bodies.