Being "caught Up" To Christ Jesus

teleiosis said:

I didn't "miss it," it just wasn't germane to answering where Jesus will take the Saints He will resurrect from the ends of Heaven.

If you want to get into the sequence of events which transpire on the Day of the Lord, there are quite a few precursors which are given and which we can order logically. God's Word is logical going back to the wisdom of God, and He presents prophecy to us in linear narratives. The sixth Seal is one such narrative, and we can find many specific and unique events there with which to integrate other prophetic accounts.

Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. This describes a sequence of events which take place which can be depicted graphically like this:

- The first earthquake is foretold by Haggai 2:6, and this is backed up by the author of Hebrews 12:26-27.
- The sun/moon/star sign allows us know this is the Day of the Lord, and to integrate the Olivet Discourse's gathering of the Elect as a subsequent event to it.
- The second earthquake would equate to Zechariah 14:4. Interestingly enough, this also makes way for the Remnant Jews from Jerusalem in the following verse to join those from Judea who previously escaped into the wilderness when the King of the North invaded the Holy Land prior to his being ensconced as the talking image abomination which marks the midpoint of the one 'seven.'

Speaking of Jesus, yes, I wholeheartedly agree that He touches down on the Mount of Olives first when coming. This would fulfill what the Angels said in Acts 1:11 and it gives reason for the second earthquake of the sixth Seal which happens after the sun/moon/star event.

However, there are a couple of things He does before gathering the surviving Elect from the four corners of the earth onto the cloud upon which He rides with the Saints He has resurrected from Paradise.

1. He musters the 144,000. This can be seen in the parallel account to the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13) in the account of the one 'seven' in Revelation chapters 13-16 (inclusive).
We can see the result of Isaiah 13:5 being assembled on Mount Zion, which I think is the former Mount of Olives, now split in two. There is a lot more about the 144,000 which I will not cover here, but while they are being assembled and sealed, Jesus performs the second event.

2. The resurrection of the Elect from the grave. Graves do not have to open up either. The body that is buried is not the body that will be lifted up as Paul taught the Corinthians. The only thing that is needed is the soul, and that resides in place of rest in Heaven. Notice the distinction of John 14:2 and what Paul taught. While departed souls are in Paradise, they are not yet with Jesus until He comes back and gets them. True, captives followed Jesus to Heaven when He arose and went back to the Father as He told Mary in the garden that He must, and we can see "men wondered at" in Zechariah 3. I think these early arrivals are our 24 Elders. So if Paradise as Jesus taught in Luke 16 is a realm of Heaven, beyond this material world, and He, as the Son of God and part of the Trinity, is able to translate between Heaven and Earth - then He can go back to where He arose from, and with the keys He has, can selectively call out those who hear: Jn 5:25. It is then with this multitude of Saints that Jesus then comes back with on the clouds (1Th 3:13) to gather the surviving Elect from the face of the Earth, meeting us out in the street, so to speak, and having us join Him in an analogous fashion to the first-century Jewish wedding pattern.

3. Then Jesus gathers the Elect from the clouds as we see in Mt 24:31, 1Th 4:17, and Revelation 14:14-16. Those are three separate prophetic witnesses to the same event.

And in perfect harmony with Jesus' parable of the wheat and tares, 4. the Elect are then taken to the third Heaven (Paul's term for what I think is his description of where John went) (and yes, the two did meet as written in Acts in their time so John could have imparted his experience and knowledge to Paul) where we find in the sixth Seal account they are now in the presence of the Father - where Jesus has been all this time.

(If the presence of the Father is the third Heaven, what is the first and the second? Paradise where the Dead in Christ rest is the first, and the second would be under the Altar where the martyrs are sequestered until such time as their number is complete.)

But we do not have to have a strictly temporal address as you suggest. This is because as Paul teaches, that when this Age is fulfilled in the end-times, there is one Kingdom uniting Heaven and Earth. In the Millennium, I think we can see that many of the conditions and rules we have lived by will be obliterated by a complete paradigm shift; the rules change.

Eph 1:10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment —to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

The city of Jerusalem is referred to as the "camp" of God on Earth. I would suggest that there is a dimensional overlay of the Temple on Earth and the Temple of God in Heaven as is suggested by Ezekiel 43:8.

I would say that as Jesus has shown that He is fully capable of translating between Heaven and Earth as He did after His Resurrection and before His Ascension many times, and just as Angels are able to come to Earth from Heaven, and as we will be like Angels as Jesus says when we are in our new immortal bodies, that we too can go between Heaven and Earth - which are UNITED under Christ.

Therefore, our home can be in Heaven, where Jesus has built a place for us, and the two times that He will present Himself on the Earth according to the rules the latter chapters of Ezekiel spell out, that we can "camp out" so to speak on this earth. Scripture records prophetically where the Tribes will live in the Millennium, and it also speaks of other nations, but I can find no reference which shows mortal man interacting with, or living beside immortal, resurrected men. We will certainly rule the Earth as Jesus will as He gives us that authority to some of us as expressed to the Churches in Revelation chapters 2 & 3, but those that rule in His stead can then occupy the Temple on Earth and do so, and it may very well be on a revolving basis like the Priests took care of the Temple before Jesus' first Advent. We will, after all, be Priests of God after we are lifted up as is revealed to John in the final chapters of Revelation.

Click to expand...

That's interesting. And yes, I do see some of that, especially from the Ezekiel Scripture with Christ coming and going. That may answer why Rev.20:9 uses the title of "beloved city" instead of the Holy City or new Jerusalem, the new Jerusalem indeed waiting fulfillment until after the great white throne judgment.

But recall Ezekiel 47 which shows God's River flowing out of His "house" that's on the earth, and note areas like Engedi in the holy land are named. The tree of life is on earth with that River too.

About the sixth seal events, I only see one great earthquake happenning there, the events that follow it occurring as a result.

The "third heaven" Paul mentioned in 2 Cor.12, I believe is the future age of God's Eternity, after the great white throne judgment. I don't see it as level divisions, but as time divisions, there possibly existing a previous world age when Satan first rebelled against God in the beginning, then this present world from Adam to Christ's return and thousand years being the second, and then God's Eternity being the third.

I fear we've run off and left others with how profoundly deep this matter is.

teleiosis said:

I have no problem with much of what you post, so I'll just hone in on the different takes you and I have; discussing our differences helps me understand if I got something wrong.


I don't see that written; could you provide the verse?

All I see is: Eze 47:12 "Fruit trees of all kinds will grow on both banks of the river. Their leaves will not wither, nor will their fruit fail. Every month they will bear, because the water from the sanctuary flows to them. Their fruit will serve for food and their leaves for healing. ”

It doesn't say the tree of life. They are for healing though, and that is another aspect of prophecy for Israel... which I won't get into here now.

Click to expand...

I get it from this...

Rev 22:2
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
(KJV)

Rev.2:7 also reveals the tree of life is in the midst of the paradise of God. And in Rev.22:14-15 we're given a picture of Christ's Milennium with those who have right to the tree of life and my enter through the gates into the city, while outside the gates of the holy city are the wicked.

This I do see as an expanded bit of prophecy. One earthquake happens before the sun is darkened (at noon) and the second happens coincidentally or immediately with or after the celestial fireworks known as a meteor shower, or falling stars, which in turn heralds the scrolling back of the sky which happens at night. - and the second quake happens afterward, as Jesus touches down. So in my way of looking at things with addition of added prophecy, the two mentions of earthquakes are separated by some hours. I can provide a more detailed response later with various Bible verses, but I'll try to keep it short here.

Click to expand...

I understand you, but that's not how I look at all those sixth seal events, and the "great earthquake". Notice a great earthquake happens with the timing of the last trumpet and the last vial. The sixth seal is a bit tricky timewise, because most of those events on the sixth seal are linked with the seventh trumpet and seventh vial, which is the time of Christ's coming (Rev.11; Rev.16). But along with the event of the sixth seal stars of heaven falling to earth, the untimely figs metaphor is given along with it. That's about the idea of a winter fig, a fig that grows in the winter and is cast off in the spring, an early fig. It connects within our Lord's parable of the fig tree and events leading up to His return. It has a connection with the casting down of Satan and his host on the sixth trumpet - 2nd woe period, i.e., the tribulation time.

In context, Paul is speaking about someone who actually went to the third Heaven.

Now I know a lot of people think he went, but again in the context of the passage Paul is not going to boast of himself, but another.
Now I also know that Paul was in Jerusalem around the time that John was in Israel, so my conjecture is that they met.

There is nothing in 2Co 12 which allows me to say what that man saw there, but I believe what he could write about is contained in the book of Revelation.

Click to expand...

I believe Apostle Paul was actually talking about himself with the one caught up in 2 Cor.12, to keep from sounding like he was boasting. I believe it happened when he was once stoned and left for dead in Acts 14:19. Paul's spirit was caught up to the third heavenly age, is what I believe happenned. It's a pretty deep idea, but I believe per Eccl.12 what's called there the silver cord involves something that keeps our spirit and soul connected to our flesh body, and is severed (loosed) only at death. That's how I believe Paul's spirit was caught up to Paradise, yet his cord was not severed, meaning he didn't die. Whether or not Paul was speaking of himself we know that one did not die, but lived to tell about it.

teleiosis said:

Yes, but Rev 22:2 is part of the linear narrative which starts in chapter 19 just before the end of the one 'seven' with the battle at Armageddon and goes on from there.
Chapter 22 is describing what the New Heaven and New Earth is like.
That happens after the Millennium, and after the second Resurrection.

Click to expand...

A "linear narrative" is not really how I see our Lord Jesus layed out many of the events in His Revelation. Treating it as a type of linear narrative is how some wrongly derive support for their belief in a rapture prior to the great tribulation. As far as the events that happen in order we can be certain with the last three trumpets, because our Lord gave three woe periods along with those last three trumpets to show their events happen in order. The 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period reveals His return, the day of The Lord with His wrath upon the wicked, and rewards to His saints, and events of the Milennium timing.

You should also note that at the end of the seals there are lightnings, thunderings, voices, and an earthquake (Rev.8:5), as also at the end of the trumpets (Rev.11:19), and at the end of the vials (Rev.16:18). There's a great earthquake that reveals the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe, and a great earthquake on the 7th vial. Satan's host are shown still in operation on the 6th trumpet and the 6th vial. And per Rev.10 we're told when the seventh angel sounds (7th trumpet), the mystery God gave through His prophets should be finished. So what timing does all that reveal? It reveals the events of the 7th seal, 7th trumpet, and 7th vial all end at the same time.

Rev.22:14-15 we know is not new heavens and new earth timing, simply because it shows the wicked still existing outside the gates of the holy city. That's Milennium timing, although Milennium and new heavens and new earth events I believe are written together in both the Rev.21 and 22 chapters. Why is that?

Our Lord's Book of Revelation is written more like the Books of the OT prophets than like the NT Books. In the OT prophets we often see huge time jumps between verses. Sometimes even within a single verse (like Isaiah 61:2; first coming and second coming). We can not always treat the event order in Revelation chapters in a linear chronological fashion. Even within Rev.1 we're given events about Christ's second coming with every eye seeing His return. Yet that event of Christ's return is also covered in Rev.11, Rev.16, and Rev.19. Because of this, I look at the Revelation chapters progressively unfolding more and more, like peeling layers of an onion back, a little more revealed in each succeeding chapter. That requires us to pay more attention to the type of events given first, and then their proper order will be revealed. That's how many of the Books of the OT prophets are layed out also.

It is not germane to what I thought we were talking about which is the Temple in the Millennium, and the water flowing out from its foundation in a miraculous fashion (getting deeper as it goes) and supporting trees which help "bind" the wounds the Remnant and Meek who inherit the Earth after God's Desolations have utterly changed the whole face of the Earth.

Click to expand...

Yes, that's what I was speaking of too, even with the Rev.22 example, for we know by the Ezek.47 example that River is indeed upon the earth during Christ's Milennium reign to begin with. The many trees are indeed the tree of life.

1. The Great Tribulation is only defined by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse.

• It begins with the (midpoint) abomination
• It ends whenever the Day of the Lord begins.
• It is shortened; i.e., it cannot last the whole of the second half of the one 'seven.'
• In Revelation, we can see it as the test which is going to come upon the whole world in 3:10
• Again in Revelation we can see the source for why the Great Tribulation will affect only Christians in the two laws which come with the midpoint talking image abomination: worship or die, and/or - take the mark or don't be able to make transactions (get your paycheck, buy food, pay your utilities, etc.).

Click to expand...

The great tribulation events are especially mentioned in our Lord's Olivet Discourse, I agree. But that's not the only place in Scripture that gives the events of the tribulation. Rev.12:6-17 is about it, as is Rev.9 from the start of the 6th seal - 2nd woe through its end on the 7th trumpet of Rev.11:15. Even in Rev.16 on the 6th vial the tribulation hasn't ended at that point. Christ's return is what ends the tribulation upon God's people, His saints. 2 Thess.2 is also covering events of that just prior to Christ's return, as also in 1 Thess.5, and 2 Peter 3:10. Even Daniel 7 through 12 is covering some events during that tribulation period. And then there's the Book of Joel about the locust army God sends. There's actually quite a lot written throughout God's Word on the great tribulation our Lord Jesus mentioned. Maybe you just haven't discovered that yet?

The one 'seven' is never called the "Tribulation Time" in prophecy.

Click to expand...

2. Now, I do not think the sixth Seal is "tricky" timewise. It comes in sequential order.

The Seals must all be broken before any of the desolations (Dan 9:26) stored on the Scroll can go forward. Daniel 9:26 says that 2500 years ago, that God had ordained "desolations." Now where are those desolations stored? On the Scroll. That is the evidence in the Bible. John does NOT record any world-wide desolation happening with the first Seal opening. In fact, the figure called out by the first Living Creature can be likened to a false Christ, and there are many types of false Christs in the world. It is not THE anti-Christ... but a "white knight" which makes war possible, and I would say on a scale never seen before - so much so that Daniel has nightmares about the end-times visions he has seen of these wars.The time of Christ's coming CANNOT be known; even Jesus doesn't know the Day. So for any of us to say it comes on the last day of the one 'seven,' means that EVERYBODY will know THAT is THE Day!

Click to expand...

The last trump, or 7th of Rev.11:15 is about Christ's return. One only need to keep reading right after that Rev.11:15 verse to the end of the Rev.11 chapter to know that. You do realize that's the time of Christ gathering His saints to Him? That's the trump Apostle Paul was talking about in 1 Cor.15 and 1 Thess.4.

As for the rider on the white horse of the 1st seal, I see that as a type for the antichrist, especially since our Lord Jesus returns riding a white horse in Rev.19. The one on the 1st seal represents a fake Christ, the 'pseudo-Christ' our Lord Jesus was talking about in Matt.24:24 and Mark 13:22, translated as "false Christs" in the KJV. The Matt.24:23-28 verse context is actually about a singular false Christ working great signs and wonders on earth to cause the strong delusion Paul spoke of in 2 Thess.2. It's the same false one of the Book of Daniel, the "little horn" and "vile person". It's the "dragon" of Rev.13:11 forward who sets up an image of the beast for the whole world to worship.

No man knows the day or hour of Christ's coming, but per Paul in 1 Thess.5 we are to know the times and the seasons leading up to Christ's return. That's why Paul gave the "Peace and safety" event for the saints to watch. Rev.11 with God's two witnesses reveals an even smaller timeframe when to expect Christ's coming.

The "last day" that Jesus comes is the last day of the Church Age. It is whenever the Harvest is that gathers up the Elect remaining after the Great Tribulation has nearly wiped us out. It comes before God's Wrath begins on the second half of the Day of the Lord. Remember: the wheat is "led together" into the "barn" of Heaven, and THEN the tares are burned in the field, and there are THREE elements involved with OT Day of the Lord Wrath, and one of them is fire, and the another is blood: and both of those are supplied by the first Trumpet. In Revelation 14:17, we even see an Angel who assists in the blood shedding - woe to the occupying armies of the North in Israel.

Click to expand...

I believe all seven trumpets happen in order, the last one being Christ's coming. I agree Christ's return will end today's so-called Church age.

Concerning the tares being cast into the fire, like Matt.13 declares, that's about the end of Christ's thousand years reign with the "lake of fire" event. Christ's thousand years reign on earth is part of this second earth age we are in now. The new heavens and new earth timing won't begin until after that, with no more need for a temple.

With God's consuming fire that comes at Christ's return to end this present age, I believe that will literally destroy man's works off the earth, like 2 Pet.3:10 shows. I believe because of it we all will be changed at the twinkling of an eye. I don't believe it will destroy the souls of the wicked. Isaiah 24 reveals the wicked high ones on high will be gathered as prisoners in the pit, and shut up in prison, and after many days will be visited. They won't be destroyed until the "lake of fire" event. As of now, only Satan and his angels have already been judged and sentenced to perish in the lake of fire. No one else has been judged yet. All must bow to Christ Jesus during His thousand years reign.

3. Now as to the earthquakes.

• The first earthquake of the sixth Seal is Haggai 2:6, and it "shakes things up."
• It comes before noon, when the sun is darkened at its brightest time.
• The second earthquake happens after the "evening becomes light" which is the second miraculous sign that God puts on the Day of the Lord sun/moon/star sign to let the ungodly know that this is no ordinary Day.
• Thus, the second earthquake happens some hours (at least) after the first.
• The second earthquake displaces mountains and islands. This same effect was seen in both the Indian Ocean earthquake which produced the Christmas tsunami, and the Argentinian earthquake of the last year; every point on the earth changed relative to each other - AND - the rotation of the Earth actually sped up a few microseconds!
• When the final earthquake of the one 'seven' - found in Revelation 11:13; 11:19; and 16:18-20 hits - it flattens the earth! Islands, once "displaced" now disappear! Mountain ranges are no more!
• This final earthquake is accompanied by a hailstorm of no ordinary variety.
• This final earthquake also reconfigures the Earth so that rain is not dependent upon lifting action: deserts will no longer be a function of geography. Instead, rain will be dependent upon heartfelt worship of Jesus.

Click to expand...

I can't go with all that. I only see one "great earthquake" mentioned with Christ's return.

4. The sixth Trumpet follows the fifth, which follows the fourth, which follows the third, which follows the second, which follows the first - which follows the breaking of the seventh Seal.

Click to expand...

I mostly agree, but not with the untimely figs metaphor given within the sixth seal. But if you'll compare events between the seals, trumpets, and vials, you'll see something deeper.

THAT is the evidence IN the Bible. It is one linear narrative and it begins in chapter 5 when the Scroll with its Seals is introduced. The focus of Revelation chapters 4-11 is on the Scroll once it is introduced in the Heavenly scene (Rev ch 4-11 exclusive of the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses in 11:1-13).

Click to expand...

I think I've covered that point enough above. The 5th trumpet - 1st woe happen together; the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period happens together, and the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period happens together, in that order. That begins at the end of Rev.8 and flows through to the end of Rev.11. Rev.10 serves as a pause, with a specific timing given about the seventh trumpet. On the sixth seal, notice the events of God's wrath is an event on the 7th trumpet and 7th vial also.

What I see are three groups of events, the seven seals, seven trumpets, and seven vials. And they have 'event' connections between them. Our Lord's coming is shown on the 7th trumpet and on the 7th vial, and 6th seal if we admit the time of His wrath spoken of there. But in order to explain all that, the layout appears like a linear narrative. But in reality, it is finished when the 7th trumpet and 7th vial events end at the same time. The 6th trumpet - 2nd woe events point to tribulation timing, simply becuse Christ's coming is shown right after that on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe. The 6th vial shows Satan's host still in power on the earth, gathering the wicked for the coming battle of Armageddon. The 7th vial shows the time of wrath poured out upon them, which is also Christ coming to fight Armageddon with His angels, for that is the war of Rev.19:19.

The second Woe is NOT happening the same time as the sixth Seal... but happens months, and maybe even year or two afterward. It is separated by at least five months, and the second Woe can be read so as to understand that it lasts for just over thirteen months.

Click to expand...

Right, the 2nd woe happens the same time as the 6th TRUMPET. Didn't I say that? The 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period happens all the way up to Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe (events from Rev.9:12 through Rev.11:14). The start of the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe shows the locust army fully loosed upon the earth, coming to deceive (not Armageddon yet). I believe the 2nd woe - 6th trumpet is the 1260 day period of the last half of the "one week" of Dan.9:27. It's when God sends His two witnesses to prophesy in Jerusalem for 1260 days. It's the 42 months the dragon is given to work. That ends with Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe.

To keep it from sounding like he was boasting???

I take Paul at his word. He said he would not boast of himself.
Then he speaks of a man in the third person.

You can believe what you like, but the evidence in the Bible is that he is not speaking of himself. You have to twist everything Paul says around to reach your conclusion, and I will not join you in it. On this, and possibly many other things, we will have to disagree.

Click to expand...

Come on now, what did I say that set you off? Read the 2 Cor.12:7 verse. Paul admitted that to quell any possible high mindedness because of the deep revelations Christ had given him, he was given a thorn in the flesh. What Apostle Paul revealed in 2 Cor.12 was about someone who had a witness of Paradise, and lived to tell it. He did not name who it was. There is a possibility that Paul was that someone who was caught up to Paradise, and heard unspeakable words not lawful to utter. And the reason I think that is because Paul was once stoned and left for dead. Why does that scare you?

________________________________________________________

However, it is helpful to see how we each reach our various conclusions about what we can each read in the Bible.
It helps me to compare how a person comes up with their eschatology so I can evaluate the premises with which I come to my conclusions.

I have 5 main precepts which guide my exegesis:

1. The Bible is true, and figurative prophecy concerning Jesus' first Advent had a literal fulfillment, so I take a literal approach.
2. The Bible tells stories in linear narratives. When I can find major end-time prophecies, likewise they come in a linear order; this happens, and then that happens.
3. While there is nothing new under the sun as far as the nature of man is concerned - there are specific and unique events which are NEVER repeated like the Flood and the Cross.
4. Certain prophetic events are so important that we get multiple witnesses to them. This means multiple accounts can describe the same event like Mt 24:31, 1Th 4:17 and Rev 14:14-16.
5. The authors of the Bible use parallel construction to their linear narratives to give a broad overview and then focus in on a time of intense interest so as to add important detail. I discern the nature of parallel construction and parallel accounts when I see a change of scene and focus. One telling clue is the three repetitions of a specific and unique event like the final earthquake of the one 'seven' or the five repetitions of the half of the one 'seven' which happen in Revelation chapters 11-13.

Mark

Click to expand...

Yeah, I pretty much agree with that too, except I think you and I have different definitions for the idea of "linear narrative". Some chapters, especially in the OT prophets, can jump back and forth in time between verse sections so much it would be a mistake to think each part occurs in the order they are written. I think our LORD did this so we'd have to focus more on understanding the meaning of events to rightly divide their timelines. I see verses within the OT prophets that never happenned in history given in-between verses that were history. And I see some events that keep repeating in history, which also have a pointer for the last days. Because of this, some calle God's Word The Living Word. The Holy Spirit only can reveal that, and not through man's systems of exegesis, though some of it might help.

Strangelove said:

Veteran,

You use Zecharia 14 as proof that Christ comes and actually touches down on Earth at His second coming>>>

Is there any reason why Zecharia 14 cannot be talking about the first coming of Christ?

Click to expand...

Well, yes, there's many reasons given in Zech.14 that shows that's not about Christ's first coming. Those are literal events being given in Zech.14, a great earthquake, Mount of Olives split into two, God's River flowing from Jerusalem, the plague mentioned, and especially... there being only One King (our Lord) reiging upon the earth over all nations.

Jesus didn't come to reign with the "rod of iron" at His first coming. He came to be the Perfect Sacrifice for sin. Like He said then too in John 18, that His Kingdom was not of this world, for if it was, then His servants would fight to prevent His being delivered up for crucifixion. But His return is definitely about a literal fight, between Satan and his host at Armageddon, and then a literal de facto reign over the nations with a rod of iron.

Is there any other scripture apart from Zecharia 14 that mentions Christ setting foot on Earth at His second coming?

Regards...Doc.

Click to expand...

There's the example of Acts 1, which basically declares that, His return to be in the same manner as His Ascension into Heaven. He ascended up in clouds from the Mount of Olives with His disciples watching, per that Acts 1 example.

Acts 1:10-12
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven."
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
(KJV)

There are several Bible witnesses to our Lord's coming with clouds, and some of His return upon a white horse. But this detail is specific about His return upon the Mount of Olives where He ascended to Heaven from.

Micah 1:2-4
2 Hear, all ye people; hearken, O earth, and all that therein is: and let the Lord GOD be witness against you, the Lord from His holy temple.
3 For, behold, the LORD cometh forth out of His place, and will come down, and tread upon the high places of the earth.
4 And the mountains shall be molten under Him, and the valleys shall be cleft, as wax before the fire, and as the waters that are poured down a steep place.
(KJV)

Strangelove said:

Well. You state that Zech 14 is literal. But there is another possibility. Could Zech 14 be talking figuratively? About the first coming? Let’s test this theory and see if it works:::Just for kicks>>>

Lets remember this is an Old Testament prophesy written 494 years before Jesus was born and well over five hundred years before His feet did indeed stand on the Mount of Olives.

Click to expand...

Does't matter that it is written in the OT. Many prophecies written in the OT prophets have yet to come to pass today. Christ's feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives is about His descending from Heaven. It's not about His being born through Mary, and then later walking up to the Mount of Olives with His disciples.

First off., the word "mountain " is often used figuratively in the Bible. This is well known to Bible scholars. Mountain often figuratively refers to “kingdom”. Since Jesus’ 1st coming totally overturned the Old Testament system of the Jews and established His New Testament system wherein "whosoever will" was invited and there was "no respecter of persons", etc., it is perfectly sensible to conclude that this prophesy in Zechariah was fulfilled some 530 years after it was given rather than stretch it some 2500 years and counting....

Click to expand...

Yes, the word mountain is 'sometimes' used in a figurative sense in God's Word, but not in the case of the Mount of Olives, a literal area on earth. For it to be meant in the figurative sense, it would mean Christ didn't literally ascend to Heaven from the Mount of Olives either. Acts 1 is a verification against a figurative reading.

Let’s read Zech 14:4 again trying to look at it figuratively>>>>::

14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,
which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives
shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the
west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the
mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the
south.

So we can see that the mountain (kingdom) was split. This is what Jesus did when He came the 1st time. He split the kingdom into 2. He separated believers from those who clung to the traditions of men. So this prophecy is fulfilled by Christ’s first coming.

Click to expand...

Already the figurative reading you offer has left its own qualifying parameters, because Zech.14 shows it's the Mount of Olives itself that is split in two by Christ, not the kingdom of the Jews. So now you're making that event figurative too.

I'll stop right there, because you might as well make the whole Zech.14 chapter figurative, and the rest of The Bible too, since the theory you propose does not follow how The Bible gives a figurative sense in general. If the Mount of Olives in Zech.14 is not the real Mount of Olives that has existed east of Jerusalem throughout its history, and even today, then that's confusion. If Christ's Ascension per Acts 1 was not literal, then it would mean the false idea that He did not ascend into Heaven as written in many other Scriptures also.

God's Word easily lets us know when something is being given in the spiritual sense, and also in the literal sense. Concerning the river of the waters of Life, it is given both in the figurative and the literal sense. In the figurative because it has not manifested upon the earth yet, and many have not been given to understand it, but we're shown in Ezekiel 47 and Rev.22 that it will literally manifest upon this earth. Because of that, Christ has left no doubt He was speaking of literal waters all along, even when speaking figuratively about that River. The reason He compares that river to His Salvation, like with the woman at the well, is because that river will only manifest at the time of His return and the redemption.

Strangelove said:

We both agree this is a prophecy. If it was written before Christ’s 1st coming then that allows for the possibility that it could be describing his 1st coming. That’s my point, and I think it is valid and does matter.

Click to expand...

Just because it was written in the OT prophets does not have to mean it is already history, and that's my point.

So your saying a place name cant mean more than just the location? How about Babylon? And anyway, if this was indeed a prophecy about Christ’s crucifixion>>>Why wouldn’t it mention the exact name of the mountain involved? It just lends more accuracy to the prophecy. The word “mountain” is used in the same verse with mount of olives so they seem interchangeable in this verse.

Click to expand...

No, I'm saying that God's Word clearly instructs us when a figurative sense is being given. And His Word will also reveal if a figurative meaning also has a literal reality to it (like His River of Ezek.47). In John 3 when our Lord Jesus compared the wind to those born of The Spirit, that was a figurative comparison, and note a real object like the 'wind' was used as comparison.

For Zech.14 to be figurative, where's the literal objects of comparison? With Babylon in Revelation, that indeed is a figurative comparison, but also given with that are literal descriptions of why that harlot city is being compared to historical Babylon. So we don't have to guess whether or not the Babylon name is given in the figurative sense in our Lord's Revelation. We know our Lord was not talking about the literal area of Babylon with that. But with Zechariah 14 Mount of Olives, you'd have to guess, and that's what you're doing.

The Mount of Olives in Zech.14 is the real Mount of Olives. I’m not disputing that. It’s where Christ died on the cross. Theres a double meaning Zech.14. Its saying the mountain on which Christ died (Mount of Olives) figuratively cleaved in half. With half the people there (and in the whole kingdom) becoming believers and the other half not. I’m just saying it can all tie in quite neatly with the 1st coming.

Click to expand...

That's good, the Mount of Olives in Zech.14 is about the real Mount of Olives near today's Jerusalem. But I don't believe it's where our Lord Jesus died on the cross. I know there's been historical debate on that, simply because of the later destructions of Jerusalem after Christ's crucifixion. But it's not hard to figure out, because the garden of Gethsemane at the base of the Mount of Olives is where Christ's enemies arrested Him, but not where the Jews held crucifixions. Gethsemane at the Mount of Olives was a favorite resting spot by our Lord during His first coming. Not likely the process of executions was going on there.

Ok let’s stick to Rev 22 because we know that its describing end times::::

22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal,
proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was
there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and
yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for
the healing of the nations.

So your saying this river that comes from up in Heaven which has a tree of life in the middle of it and has leaves which were for the healing of nations is literal? It’s an actual river with a real tree?
Um….I may be wrong but that doesn’t sound right.

Click to expand...

The reason I say it's literal is because of the locations on earth shown in the Ezekiel 47 example. And because of it flowing out of God's Garden in Genesis 2 to feed four literal rivers upon the earth in the days of Adam and Eve.

I think the clincher for me is the fact that we're given a concise and detailed description of the Second Coming in Revelation. It never says anything about Christ coming down onto the surface of Earth. There’s not even a hint of Him getting anywhere near terra firma. Everything happens in the sky. Don’t you think that’s strange? Seeing as you’re so sure about it just from one or two OT prophecies which COULD easily describe the first coming.

Click to expand...

Well, we can heed what God says in all His Word and believe it as written, or we can listen to men's traditions which take only the parts of His Word they prefer, and then make up their own doctrines from those 'fragments'. To me, that is to be willfully ignorant. Acts 1 reveals Christ's return will be in the same manner as His Ascension to Heaven. And our Lord Jesus was standing upon the Mount of Olives when He ascended to Heaven in the clouds, with His disciples watching the event. Either you believe 'their' witness of that or you don't. But you'll never be correct in saying that Bible witness does not exist.

You also seemed to have missed out the following paragraph in my last post which I wouldn’t mind you commenting on:::::>>>

With regard to plagues, according to you this happens after Christ touches down on Earth correct? So these plagues will occur AFTER the second coming and therefore DURING His (supposed) millennial reign? How can this be? It’s supposed to be a BLISSFULL millennium?? Notice these other ill-fitting incongruities: there is tumult with neighbor fighting neighbor (v.13); Judah is fighting at Jerusalem (v.14); there are plagues on horses and mules and camels and asses and "all of the beasts"(v.15); drought is put on some who don’t come up to worship and others are killed (vs.17,18). That doesn’t sound too blissful to me. How do you account for this?

Click to expand...

Not exactly.

Zech 14:12
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
(KJV)

Zech 14:15
15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
(KJV)

That's in connection with the time of His wrath on the day of The LORD. It's Armageddon timing, Ezekiel 39 timing, when the great army out of the northern quarters comes upon Israel on the last day of this present world. That happens at the time of Christ's coming, and is part of what that splitting in two of the Mount of Olives is about. It's what God foretold about the "valley of slaughter", the "valley of Hamongog", the "valley of decision", the "valley of Jehoshaphat".

It appears you're trying to read every verse in Zech.14 chronologically, as if each event mentioned happens in progressive order. Zech.14:8-11 are events that occur right after the Mount of Olives is split in two, after His wrath, and right after Christ gathers His saints there in Jerusalem. That's when His Temple will be manifested in Jerusalem, the Temple of Ezekiel 40-47. The Zech.14:12-15 verses moves the timeline back within the Zech.14:1-7 timeframe of His coming to defeat His enemies on earth. Then the Zech.14:16-21 verses are for the same timing as the 8-11 verses.


Jer 31:35-40
35 Thus saith the LORD, Which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is His name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before Me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before Me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.
(KJV)

The "horse gate" and Kidron valley is on the east of Jerusalem, near Gethsemane and the Mount of Olives. That's why God is calling that area "the whole valley of the dead bodies", because He is coming with His angels to fight at Jerusalem in that area. That's also the area where Christ's feet touch down, upon the Mount of Olives. Per Zech.14, that Mount of Olives area is split in two, half moving to the north and half moving to the south, with a valley formed running east to west.

The "mansions" of John 14 will be on the earth in the beloved city where Christ's priests and kings will reign from.