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Michiah-Imla

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And it also says that death and the grave are destroyed before people are cast into the lake of fire.

Rev. 20:

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Great observation!

And death came forth from sin.

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Barney,
It is acceptable and caring for you to share your view of the afterlife in Sheol, which btw is deeper than the grave and not Hell (The Lake of Fire); but you should state that this is Seventh Day Adventist Theology up front. They are an accepted denomination, with quite different views on several doctrines. Just tell everyone you are SDA and then they can decide to read what amounts to a book or not! Andy went to a different church, it's no wonder he was shaking his head all the time.
 

marks

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look at it like this; for ever and ever is as long as it is....life for the redeemed ongoing, no end forever to the full........destruction of sin and sinners forever. When something is destroyed it is destroyed....for ever
I understand this. I do have that question about "eternal torment". Not "eternal destruction", but "torment", the same torment that fear has. How can you know eternal torment if you cease to be?

Much love!
 

ChristisGod

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But one thing we can say with certainty-the wicked won't live in that fire throughout eternity.

The bible is very clear that there is eternal torment for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched
.'

Matthew 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matthew 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matthew 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:46

"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

2 Peter 2:1-9
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.


Jude 4-7, 12-13
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.


Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Revelation 19:20-21
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:12-15

12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:

Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone
The smoke of their torment
The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.

The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).

The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Got ?

hope this helps !!!
 

ChristisGod

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continued :

NT:166
"The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2 Cor 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., 'for a season,' and in Philem 15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, Rom 16:26; of His power, 1 Tim 6:16, and of His glory, 1 Peter 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Heb 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, Heb 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, 5:9, as well as of His future rule, 2 Peter 1:11, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, John 3:16, concerning whom He said, 'they shall never perish,' 10:28, and of the resurrection body, 2 Cor 5:1, elsewhere said to be 'immortal,' 1 Cor 15:53, in which that life will be finally realized, Matt 25:46; Titus 1:2.(from Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words, Copyright © 1985, Thomas Nelson Publishers.)

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 166: αἰώνιος

αἰώνιος, , and (in 2 Thessalonians 2:16; Hebrews 9:12; Numbers 25:13; Plato, Tim., p. 38 b. (see below); Diodorus 1:1; (cf. WHs Appendix, p. 157; Winers Grammar, 69 (67); Buttmann, 26 (23))) αἰώνιος, αἰώνια, αἰώνιον (αἰών);

1. without beginning or end, that which always has been and always will be: Θεός, Romans 16:26 (ὁ μόνος αἰώνιος, 2 Macc. 1:25); πνεῦμα, Hebrews 9:14.

2. without beginning: χρόνοις αἰωνίοις, Romans 16:25; πρό χρόνων αἰωνίων, 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; εὐαγγέλιον, a gospel whose subject-matter is eternal, i. e., the saving purpose of God adopted from eternity, Revelation 14:6.

3. without end, never to cease, everlasting: 2 Corinthians 4:18 (opposed to πρόσκαιρος); αἰώνιον αὐτόν, joined to thee forever as a sharer of the same eternal life, Philcmon 1:15; βάρος δόξης, 2 Corinthians 4:17; βασιλεία, 2 Peter 1:11; δόξα, 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Peter 5:10; ζωή (see ζωή, 2 b.); κληρονομία, Hebrews 9:15; λύτρωσις, Hebrews 9:12; παράκλησις, 2 Thessalonians 2:16; σκηναί, abodes to be occupied forever, Luke 16:9 (the habitations of the blessed in heaven are referred to, cf. John 14:2 (also,dabo eis tabernacula aeterna, quae praeparaveram illis, 4 Esdras (Fritzsche, 5 Esdr.) []); similarly Hades is called αἰώνιος τόπος, Tobit 3:6, cf. Ecclesiastes 12:5); σωτηρία, Hebrews 5:9; (so Mark 16 (WH) in the (rejected) 'Shorter Conclusion'). Opposite ideas are: κόλασις, Matthew 25:46;

hope this helps !!!
 

BarneyFife

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Same could be said of you!
No, I compare Scripture with Scripture. I'm not obsessed with an idea that goes contrary to the overwhelming preponderance of evidence contained in Scripture about God's loving character--that of a non-monster type. I'm sorry you're obsessed with an ultra-literal interpretation of 1 Corinthians 15:26. I hope you've got lots of time to type your proof texts because this is a hill I'm willing to die on. If your aim is to impugn the love of Jesus for the souls bought with His precious blood with a slanderous depiction of His heart of love, I'll be right here ready for you. Bring your friends, too.

When the wicked have once received their punishment, how enduring will be its effect?
"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment; but the righteous into life eternal." Matt. 25:46.

What is the punishment for sin?
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Rom. 6:23.
NOTE: This is the very opposite of eternal life. Everlasting punishment, then, is everlasting death, a death that lasts forever.

How many deaths are there for the wicked?
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murders, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death." Rev. 21:8.
NOTE: Good and bad men are alike subject to the first death, but this is a temporal death, which lasts only till the resurrection. After the cases of all men are settled in the judgment, the wicked then die the second death, which is eternal in its effects.

In this fire will there be torment? and how long will it last?
"He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever." Rev. 14:10, 11.
NOTE: The Greek term translated in this text "forever and ever," has different meanings; according to the connection in which it is used, such as, duration, finite or infinite; unlimited duration, past or future; time, age, lifetime; the world, universe. Greenfield.

How is the term understood in the case of certain Hebrew servants?
"His master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever." Ex. 21:6.
NOTE. - He could not serve his master longer than he lived.

For how long a time did Samuel's mother lend him to the Lord to serve in the temple?
"I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and there abide forever." "Therefore also I have lent him to the Lord; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord." 1 Sam. 1:22, 28.
NOTE. - In this case it is definitely stated to be ''as long as he liveth." Had Samuel lived only a week or a month, the "forever" would have been limited to a week or a month. It is evident that the term "forever" often means "limited duration."

How long was Jonah carried in the whale's belly through the depths?
"I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me forever." Jonah 2:6.
NOTE: In this case "forever" is limited to three days.

What is the nature of the fire into which the wicked will finally be cast?
"Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels." Matt. 25:41.

What is said of this fire in another place?
"He will thoroughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Matt. 3:12.
NOTE: The fire is said to be everlasting because it is not "quenched." If fire is quenched after taking hold upon a house, the structure is saved; but if the fire is unquenchable, it does for the house just what the last quoted text says it will do with the chaff (the wicked) namely burn it up. Such a fire is called "everlasting," because it lasts as long as there is anything for it to prey upon, and because its results are everlasting.

Has everlasting or eternal fire ever been visited upon men in the past?
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7.

What was the result of this eternal fire upon those cities?
"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly." 2 Peter 2:6.
NOTE: "Everlasting" fire converted these cities into ashes, and the apostle says they were made an ensample to those who should after live ungodly. We cannot for a moment suppose that those cities are now burning; for the saline waters of the Dead Sea rollover the very spot where they stood.

What will be the final effect of this fire on the wicked?
"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power." 2 Thess. 1:9.

Where must one go to escape from the presence of the Lord and the glory of His power?
"Whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven; thou art there: ...if I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there shall thy hand lead me." Ps. 139:7-10.
NOTE: A time is coming when the glory of the Lord shall fill the earth as the waters cover the sea (Hab. 2:14). That the wicked will have been punished (in the lake of fire surrounding and purifying our earth) "with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power," Then the righteous shall occupy the new earth, and shall "delight themselves in the abundance of peace." (Hab. 2:11; 2 Peter 3:10-13; Rev. 21:1, 5).
 

quietthinker

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Not in the least! Given teh rest of SCriptures from the fall of man and Jesus death and what it gained for all mankind (Jesus paid for the sins of everyone not just believers) through the end of revelation everyone shall live forever.

We are not immortal by nature while God is. We are all men and angels given immortality.

Before the lost are thrown into th elake of fire, death and the grave are first cast into it and destroyed. this is Jesus promise also in 1 Cor. 15:26

With death destroyed- people can no longer die!
what I see here is a convulsion to justify an imagined idea and an attempt to use scripture to justify it
 

quietthinker

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Barney,
It is acceptable and caring for you to share your view of the afterlife in Sheol, which btw is deeper than the grave and not Hell (The Lake of Fire); but you should state that this is Seventh Day Adventist Theology up front. They are an accepted denomination, with quite different views on several doctrines. Just tell everyone you are SDA and then they can decide to read what amounts to a book or not! Andy went to a different church, it's no wonder he was shaking his head all the time.
Truth is truth Ronald...it matters not who speaks it. Any attempt to malign it by using a label is the convenient way of ignoring the evidence and maintaining denial. Resorting to labelling or demonising as a means of getting the upper hand is an age old strategy used by cowards in every conceivable arena where truth and error clash.
 

quietthinker

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I understand this. I do have that question about "eternal torment". Not "eternal destruction", but "torment", the same torment that fear has. How can you know eternal torment if you cease to be?

Much love!
Being in the presence of God is an unspeakable privilege and honour. The words torment and eternal destruction are used for the same purpose of illustrating the final status of the wicked....gone....blown from existence. I think the weightiness of this is difficult for us to imagine and will only be seen in its true light in contrast with 'eternal glory' Even that term is beyond our comprehension, subsequently Jesus says this 'eye has not seen nor has ear heard nor has entered into the mind of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him'. Let this statement roll around in your mind.....savour it and rejoice!
 
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BarneyFife

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It is acceptable and caring for you to share your view of the afterlife in Sheol, which btw is deeper than the grave and not Hell (The Lake of Fire)
I'm glad you approve, but my view of the afterlife in Sheol is that there is unequivocally no such thing.
but you should state that this is Seventh Day Adventist Theology up front.
I think the cat of my affiliation is out of the bag, but thanks for your advice. :) By the way, the opposition of eternal torment is a position that is growing exponentially outside of the Adventist church. And it has never been exclusive to us.
They are an accepted denomination,
Accepted by whom? And what difference does would it make? To be approved of men is no prize to grasp.
with quite different views on several doctrines.
Different from what? Transubstantiation? Reincarnation? Predestination? Love feasts? Thetans? What's the standard that conversely defines "different?"
Just tell everyone you are SDA and then they can decide to read what amounts to a book or not!
You're a detective and, again, thanks for your advice on ethics, but I'm more interested in getting the truth about God's non-monstrous character out than showing off my name tags.
Andy went to a different church, it's no wonder he was shaking his head all the time.
With the serious content matter at hand, I'm not sure the Mayberry references are appropriate. Just my opinion.

Oh, and thanks for trying to derail the thread with your usual, half-clever distractions. Like attention much? :D
 

Enoch111

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I'm glad you approve, but my view of the afterlife in Sheol is that there is unequivocally no such thing.
When someone denies the reality of anything disclosed in Scripture, then that confirms that he or she does not really believe God. Sheol/Hades has been the region of departed souls and spirits since creation. And ever since the resurrection of Christ it is the abode of the lost. No one lives six feet under (other than worms and creatures which burrow).

Only God and Christ know what happens in the afterlife, and they have plainly revealed it in Scripture. While the bodies of the dead go into their graves, their spirits and souls go (1) either to Heaven to be with Christ (if they are children of God) or (2) Hades (if they are unbelievers, ungodly, unsaved, or plain wicked) to await their final judgment at the Great White Throne.

It is only the cults which seek to deny these Bible facts.
 

BarneyFife

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Isaiah 14
12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!


13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:


14I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.


15Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.


23“I will also make it a possession for the porcupine,
And marshes of muddy water;
I will sweep it with the broom of destruction,” says the Lord of hosts.


Ezekiel 28
13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.


14Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.


15Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

18Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.



19All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.


It's everywhere. The total destruction (not torture) of the wicked is everywhere in the Bible.
 

BarneyFife

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Only God and Christ know what happens in the afterlife, and they have plainly revealed it in Scripture.
This might be the most clumsy, self-contradicting statement I've ever seen.

Nah.

But it's a doosie, though.
 

Enoch111

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Now, see, I never make accusations like this. I assume that all Christian seekers of truth are just that, seekers of truth--not unbelievers. Away with your calumny.
How can you be a seeker after the truth when you deny the existence of Sheol/Hades and eternal Hell? Jesus Himself preached on both these regions, but you have refused to believe Him. That is not what sincere seekers of the truth do.
 

BarneyFife

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How can you be a seeker after the truth when you deny the existence of Sheol/Hades and eternal Hell? Jesus Himself preached on both these regions, but you have refused to believe Him. That is not what sincere seekers of the truth do.
Is that what He meant when He said this?

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Should it instead say:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not (descend into Sheol/hell), but have everlasting life (as well as those who descend into Sheol/hell).

?????????
 

BarneyFife

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@Enoch111
See, for me, this is not about ascribing motive to you and maligning your intentions--it's about correcting an error.
 

marks

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Being in the presence of God is an unspeakable privilege and honour. The words torment and eternal destruction are used for the same purpose of illustrating the final status of the wicked....gone....blown from existence. I think the weightiness of this is difficult for us to imagine and will only be seen in its true light in contrast with 'eternal glory' Even that term is beyond our comprehension, subsequently Jesus says this 'eye has not seen nor has ear heard nor has entered into the mind of man the things that God has prepared for those who love him'. Let this statement roll around in your mind.....savour it and rejoice!
Personally I think the words eternal torment are used to communicate exactly what they say.

On this part:

1 Corinthians 2:7-10
7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

The things which God has prepared for them that love Him, God has revealed to us by His Spirit. That Jesus would die for us. That we would live in Him. Who knew?!

Much love!
 

BarneyFife

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For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. (Malachi 4:1)
 
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