Parable Of Lazarus And The Richman

RND said:

Is the story of Lazarus and the richman a parable oran accurate account of what happens when one passes away? My belief is that this is a parable based on so many of the verses have alluisions to ther aspects of the Bible. For example this parable talks about "crums that fall from the maste's table." Is this any different than what the Canaanite woman recounts in Matthew 15?

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Luke does not label it as a parable so I believe is an account of what happens when a person dies. We are told in Eccl that the moment the cord is cut, meaning, when we die, we instantly return to the Father. The part that is added is that there is a gulf separating the believer and the non-believer over which one may not cross. The souls of the dead are not buried in some hole in the ground, but return to the Father.

Call it a parable or a story. Whether our Lord Jesus was giving a fictional account or a true event that happenned doesn't change the objects He described within it.

Likewise with all His parables, the objects He used were about real existing things.

So if that Luke 16 example is a parable, then the objects described must be real.

And when our Lord Jesus taught about the idea of "hell" (haides), when was He ever not serious about hell being a real place?

Veteran the key to understanding this parable is understanding the context especially the set-up of verses 14-18. Jesus was calling the Pharisees adulterers for giving up on the truth of the Torah in favor of Greek mythology. No where in the Torah/Tanakh is "burning in hell" taught. Its a pagan invention. Christ was calling the Pharisees on this.

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What? The real 'key' to understanding what our Lord Jesus was teaching there in Luke 16 was how there IS a real place of separation in the heavenly prepared for the wicked. And eventually, that abode of the pit of hell is itself going to go into the "lake of fire" at the end of Christ's Milennium reign, per Rev.20:14-15.


You're trying to say the idea of a pit of hell originates from ancient pagan belief, which is obviously wrong.

Isa 30:33
33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.
(KJV)

That's a reference to the "lake of fire" event of Rev.20:15. Jesus even used Hinnom as a symbolic name for that "lake of fire" event in Matt.10:28

Deut 32:22
22 For a fire is kindled in Mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
(KJV)

Ps 37:20
20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
(KJV)

Isa 10:16-19
16 Therefore shall the Lord, the Lord of hosts, send among his fat ones leanness; and under His glory He shall kindle a burning like the burning of a fire.
17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and His Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;
18 And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, both soul and body: and they shall be as when a standardbearer fainteth.
19 And the rest of the trees of his forest shall be few, that a child may write them.
(KJV)

Matt 13:38-42
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
(KJV)

In that Matt.13 example, Christ was EXPLAINING the parable of the tares of the field. That means the revealing of direct Truth.


It's occultists and atheists that are the main ones today who refuse to believe that Biblical Truth about the existence of a place called hell, and it's future casting into the lake of fire. No TRUE Christian would ever try to claim the abode of hell is nothing but myth!

I don't interpret the "lake of fire" destruction as being about eternal torment. When Satan and the wicked in hell are cast into the lake of fire, they will be gone. That's what the Psalms 37 event is about.

But there is a literal place in the heavenly that is a separation from God.

2 Pet 2:4
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell (tartaroo-Greek Tartaros), and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
(KJV)

That's about angels there. And as far as I know, no angel has been born of woman. Just because the common Greek of the people was used by those llike Apostle Paul does not mean they believed what the Greek pagans believed about haides. But the fact that tartaroo is used about a place where God has reserved those angels in chains until judgment does reveal a literal place of separation in the heavenly dimension. In 1 Peter 3 and in Rev.20:2, 3, & 7, and even in Isaiah 24:22, it is the idea of a heavenly prison. That's the point some here has said is a myth from Greek paganism, simply because of the usage of those Greek words in the New Testament.

Some will also argue about the fact that the NT Greek word 'theos' used for our Heavenly Father shows pagan influence, but the matter is that Paul used the common Greek of the people to preach to the Gentiles, which also meant using the only available Greek words they knew for spiritual matters. Paul went into great detail with them to make sure they understood the difference between their familiar pagan gods, and The God of The Bible. Even in Acts 17:28 Paul in agreement even used some of the ideas of what their Greek poets said about their "UKNOWN GOD" in order to preach The Father and His Christ. Many do not understand the most dangerous pagan ideas are not from all the crazies and wierdos that believe really wild incoherent beliefs that are simple to discern, but ideas that mimic God's Truth very closely but are based on superstition and ignorance, i.e., half-truths.

Rev 20:14
14 And death and hell (haides) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
(KJV)


Isa 30:30-33
30 And the LORD shall cause His glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of His arm, with the indignation of His anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.
31 For through the voice of the LORD shall the Assyrian be beaten down, which smote with a rod.
32 And in every place where the grounded staff shall pass, which the LORD shall lay upon him, it shall be with tabrets and harps: and in battles of shaking will He fight with it.
33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; He hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.
(KJV)

The events spoken of in Isaiah 30:30-33 (not Isaiah 33), with Tophet, is a reference to the future "lake of fire" event. God used Tophet as a symbol for it, because Tophet was in the valley of Hinnom, a place of pagan worship where pagans taught Israel to sacrifice their children in fire. That's the idea of geena translated to "hell" in the KJV New Testament in several places.

God uses "the Assyrian" as a type for Satan, as He did in the Isaiah 14 Scripture. And that's who He is talking about in those Isaiah 30-31-33 verses. That reveals the "lake of fire" event has been reserved for Satan since times of old.

Clearly, the "lake of fire" mentioned in Rev.20:15 is NOT the same event of God's consuming fire burning man's works off this earth, which the Dan.3 event of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego cast into the firey furnace represents. Their coming out untouched represents that Isaiah 33 Scripture about the righteous being able to dwell within God's consuming fire and be untouched, for as written, God is a consuming fire (Heb.12).

RND said:

Is the story of Lazarus and the richman a parable oran accurate account of what happens when one passes away? ...

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No, the scriptures clealy teach that when you die your soul is asleep not tormented.
This is a parable, the specific details mentioned show it to be a kingdom parable rather than one of personal salvation.

Abraham's bosom is the Abrahamic Covenant, Lazarus represents the house of Israel . . .

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
(the house of Judah which enjoyed all God's blessings and the full ministry of the temple in Jerusalem)
And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
(Ephraim / Israel, fallen into idolatry)
And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came
and licked his sores. (and taken captive by the gentiles who treated them better than Judah did)
And it came to pass, that the beggar died
(the dispersion of the northern 10 tribes after being taken away by the Assyrians),
and was carried by the angels ("on eagles wings" - Ex19:4, Rev.12:4)
into Abraham's bosom: (becoming a "great nation" - USA, and a "company of nations" - the British Commonwealth
- Gen.18:18, 2 Sam. 7:10)
the rich man also died, (destruction of the Jewish nation, AD70)
and was buried; (perpetually broken as a shattered pot - Jer. 19:11)
And in hell (hades - national death) he lift up his eyes, being in torments, (Jewish persecutions)
and seeth Abraham afar off, (the fulfilment of the Abrahamic Covenant)
and Lazarus in his bosom (enjoying the national blessings)
And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus,
that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
But Abraham said, Son, (Judah was a descendant of Abraham)
remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, (having "obtained mercy" - Hosea 1:7)
and likewise Lazarus evil things: (having "not obtained mercy" - Hosea 1:6) but now he is comforted,
(Hosea 2:23) and thou art tormented.
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed:
(the new Covenant which the Jews generally did not accept)
so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
For I have five brethren; (Judah had 5 brethren by Leah - Gen.35:23)
that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded,
though one rose from the dead. (Jesus and the apostles showed that many Jews didn't even hear the
scriptures they claimed to believe in, so they reject their fulfilment)

RND said:

Is the story of Lazarus and the richman a parable oran accurate account of what happens when one passes away? My belief is that this is a parable based on so many of the verses have alluisions to ther aspects of the Bible. For example this parable talks about "crums that fall from the maste's table." Is this any different than what the Canaanite woman recounts in Matthew 15?

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During the course of his 3 1/2 year ministry, Jesus gave many parables or illustrations to teach his audience vital Scriptural truths. Being known as "teacher"(Matt 17:24; 19:16), he fulfilled Psalms 78:2, which says: "In a proverbial saying I will open my mouth; I will cause riddles of long ago to bubble forth."(Matt 13:34) He gave illustrations to expose the religious leaders for what they were, as hypocrites.(Matt 23:13, 15, 25, 27, 29) Jesus did not have to identify what he said as an illustration, but used common everyday things and situations to explain Scriptural truths or moral attitudes that causes individuals to stumble.(Matt 5:29, 30)

In leading up to "Lazarus and the rich man", Jesus had already given illustrations concerning "one sinner that repents" (Luke 15:7), a "woman with ten drachma coins (who) loses one drachman coin"(Luke 15:8-10), the "prodigal son"(Luke 15:11-32), and the "unrighteous steward" (Luke 16:1-8). Upon completion of the "unrighteous steward" illustration", in which Jesus says to "make friends for yourselves by means of the unrighteous riches, so that, when such fail, they may receive you into the everlasting dwelling places", he then says: "No house servant can be a slave to two masters; for, either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to the one and despise the other. You cannot be slaves to God and to riches.”(Luke 16:13)

However, who were in the audience ? "Now the Pharisees, who were money lovers, were listening to all these things, and they began to sneer at him."(Luke 16:14) Thus, when Jesus said "You cannot be slaves to God and to riches", the Pharisees reacted by sneering or scorning Jesus, turning their noses up at him, for these "were money lovers". So in order to expose these Pharisees as to their wicked heart attitude, lacking any love for God and their subsequent dismissal from any so-called service to God, Jesus gave an illustration, using "Lazarus and the rich man" as a backdrop.

The tables are to be turned on the religious leaders, pictured by the "rich man", who are rich in worldly goods, political power, and religious control and influence. They are to be put down. However, the people who recognize their spiritual need, the "Lazarus" class, are to be lifted up. Jesus uses the "rich man" to represent the Jewish religious leaders, including not only the Pharisees and the scribes but the Sadducees and the chief priests as well. They are rich in spiritual privileges and opportunities, and they conduct themselves as the "rich man" did. Their clothing of royal purple represents their favored position, and the white linen pictures their self-righteousness.

This proud and haughty rich-man class views the poor, common people with utter contempt, calling them ‛am ha·’a´rets, or people of the earth. The beggar Lazarus thus represents these people to whom the religious leaders deny proper spiritual nourishment and privileges, feeding them only spiritual "crumbs". Hence, like Lazarus covered with ulcers, the common people are looked down upon as spiritually diseased and fit only to associate with dogs. Yet, those of the Lazarus class hunger and thirst for spiritual nourishment and so are at the gate, seeking to receive whatever meager morsels of spiritual food may drop from the rich man’s table. Jesus now goes on to describe changes in the condition of the rich man and Lazarus.

“Now in course of time,” Jesus says, “the beggar died and he was carried off by the angels to the bosom position of Abraham. Also, the rich man died and was buried. And in Hades ("hell", King James Bible) he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw Abraham afar off and Lazarus in the bosom position with him.”

Since the rich man and Lazarus are not literal persons but symbolize classes of people, their deaths are also symbolic. What do their deaths symbolize, or represent ? Jesus had just finished pointing to a change in circumstances by saying that ‘the Law and the Prophets were until John the Baptizer, but from then on the kingdom of God is being declared.’ (Luke 16:16) Hence, it is with the preaching of John and Jesus Christ that both the rich man and Lazarus die to their former circumstances, or condition.

Those of the humble, repentant Lazarus class die to their former spiritually deprived condition and come into a position of divine favor. Whereas they had earlier looked to the religious leaders for what little dropped from the spiritual table, "crumbs", now the Scriptural truths imparted by Jesus are filling their needs. They are thus brought into the bosom, or favored position, of the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God.

On the other hand, those who make up the rich-man class come under divine disfavor because of persistently refusing to accept the Kingdom message taught by Jesus. They thereby die to their former position of seeming favor. In fact, they are spoken of as being in figurative torment. The "rich man" now speaks:

“Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this blazing fire.” God’s fiery judgment messages proclaimed by Jesus’ disciples are what torment individuals of the rich-man class. They want the disciples to let up on declaring these messages, thus providing them some measure of relief from their torments.

“But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you received in full your good things in your lifetime, but Lazarus correspondingly the injurious things. Now, however, he is having comfort here but you are in anguish. And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you people, so that those wanting to go over from here to you people cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us.’”

How just and appropriate that such a dramatic reversal take place between the Lazarus class or ‛am ha·’a´rets and the rich-man class ! The change in conditions is accomplished a few months later at Pentecost 33 C.E., when the old Law covenant is replaced by the new covenant. It then becomes unmistakably clear that the disciples, not the Pharisees and other religious leaders, are favored by God. The “great chasm” that separates the symbolic rich man from Jesus’ disciples therefore represents God’s unchangeable, righteous judgment.

The rich man next requests “father Abraham”: “Send [Lazarus] to the house of my father, for I have five brothers.” The rich man thus confesses he has a closer relationship to another father, who is actually Satan the Devil. The rich man requests that Lazarus water down God’s judgment messages so as not to put his “five brothers,” his religious allies, in “this place of torment.”

“But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to these.’” Yes, if the “five brothers” would escape torment, all they have to do is heed the writings of Moses and the Prophets that identify Jesus as the Messiah and then become his disciples. But the rich man objects: “No, indeed, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them they will repent.”

However, he is told: “If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.” God will not provide special signs or miracles to convince people. They must read and apply the Scriptures if they would obtain his favor. (Luke 16:14-31)

There's no reason to doubt that Luke 16 isn't a literal account. Was Lazarus real? Of course. The rich man was literally in torment in fire. No reason whatsoever to doubt it.

Luke 16:24 (NKJV)
[sup]24 [/sup]Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.'

The rich man was miserable and desperate and burning without end.

The idea of a "hellfire" is indeed pagan ideology, originating in ancient Babylon many centuries before Christendom came into existence. About 2,000 years before the birth of Jesus, the Sumerians and the Babylonians believed in an underworld that they called the Land of No Return. This ancient belief is reflected in the Sumerian and the Akkadian poems known as “The Epic of Gilgamesh” and the “Descent of Ishtar to the Underworld.” They describe this abode of the dead as a house of darkness, “the house which none leave who have entered it.” As to the conditions prevailing there, an ancient neo-Assyrian text, Vision of the Netherworld, states that “the nether world was filled with terror.”

It should be of great interest to sincere Bible students how the word "hell" is used in various Bibles, such as the King James Bible. Because orthodox "Christianity" has for centuries taught that anyone who goes to "hell" are there eterally to be tormented, the course of wisdom is to carefully reexamine one's beliefs. For example, consider what David said to God at Psalms 86:13 according to the King James Bible: "For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell." Or of the admonition by God at Proverbs 23:13: "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell." (King James Bible)

That even righteous individuals go to "hell" is seen that Jesus himself went there, for at Acts 2:25-27, the apostle Peter says of Jesus, quoting from Psalms 16:10: "For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."(King James Bible)

Thus, upon a critical examination of the word "hell", what can be seen ? That anyone who goes there can get out of it and that it is not a place of eternal torment. Only in pagan beliefs is "hell" a place of torment, not in the Bible. This is further found at Revelation 20:13, which says: "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."(King James Bible)

According to the churches, anyone who goes to "hell" has already been judged by what he did before his death. However, the Bible says that a person can get out of "hell" and then be judged by their "works" after their resurrection from the dead, during the Millennial Reign of Christ Jesus in the near future. This agrees with John 5:28, 29, in which Jesus said: "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves (Greek hai´des) shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."(King James Bible)

In Hebrew, the word "hell" is rendered by the King James Bible from she’ohl´ and in Greek hai´des. Unfortunately, so-called "Christianity" borrowed and absorbed the belief of a tormenting "hell" from pagan sources, and placing as if it were true. Jesus used two different Greek words, hai´des and ge´en·na, and their meanings are not the same. Jesus use of hai´des, as at Matthew 11:23, 16:18, and Luke 16:23, means mankind's common grave and his use of ge´en·na, as at Matthew 5:22, 29, 30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15, 33, and Mark 9:43, 45, 47, means everlasting destruction, not torment. It needs to be grasped that the pagan "hell" is not the same as the Bible "hell".

In addition, for "hell" to maintain support, the soul has to be immortal, never dying. Is it immortal ? Contrary to popular belief, the soul is not immortal, but can die or mortal. Rather than the soul be "something" that God placed within us, it is us, for at Genesis 2:7, it says of Adam: "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."(King James Bible) At Ezekiel 18:4, 20, it says: "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die....The soul that sinneth, it shall die."(King James Bible) Hence, the soul is mortal, not immortal, as the churches have taught for centuries, for we are all sinners.(Rom 3:23) Indeed, with just little study, even this simple "truth" can be discerned.

Punishment in the fire is taught several times in the NT. Are you saying our NT is pagan?

Matthew 13:49-50 (NKJV)
[sup]49 [/sup]So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,[sup]50 [/sup]and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

No doubt, there will be MANY who don't believe in Hell in Hell forever.

veteran said:

Call it a parable or a story. Whether our Lord Jesus was giving a fictional account or a true event that happenned doesn't change the objects He described within it.

Likewise with all His parables, the objects He used were about real existing things.

So if that Luke 16 example is a parable, then the objects described must be real.

And when our Lord Jesus taught about the idea of "hell" (haides), when was He ever not serious about hell being a real place?

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I don't consider the account of Lazarus and the rich man fictional because Jesus said,

"There was a certain rich man..."

Either there was or there was not. Jesus said the was!

Duckybill said:

Punishment in the fire is taught several times in the NT. Are you saying our NT is pagan?

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Sounds exactly like what he's saying. But just because the ancient pagan Sumerians have the oldest writings about the idea of hell does not mean they originated the concept. They also have the oldest written creation account too, but it's masked in pagan symbolism, whereas God's Word makes it very plain.

The ancient Sumerians mentioned a Semite that appeared among them named Sargon, that he built their first city and gave them knowledge of agriculture and science, and pagan idol worship (a metal mask of Sargon's face is in the British Museum). Per the Assyriologist Sayce, he admitted his original translation of Sargon coming to ancient Sumer was around 3800 B.C. Per OT chronology of begats from our Lord Jesus back to Adam, 4004 B.C. was when God formed Adam in His Garden. So we're talking about only 204 years difference between the time of Adam and Sargon.

That's one reason I believe Sargon was actually Cain, and was after God had booted Cain east of Eden to the land of Nod. I believe ancient Sumer was the land of Nod where Cain went. That would explain how the ancient Sumerians wound up with ancient writings with a creation account and the place of darkness called hell, and being the founders of pagan idol worship. A look at the various beliefs the pagans had about hell shows a vain attempt to sort of glorify it, like how the ancient Egyptians did within the Book of The Dead. Leave it to them to glorify hell, since that's exactly where pagan rebellion against God leads to. Notice that God's Word does not glorify the concept of hell like the pagans did.


Scripture at the end of Isaiah 30 reveals the lake of fire event has been ordained of old for Satan and his angels that rebelled, as our Lord Jesus showed that also...

Matt 25:41
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"
(KJV)

We still have to separate the idea of the abode for the wicked called 'hell' in many Biblical cases from the "lake of fire" event of Rev.20. The abode of hell where the rich man went to is destined to go into the future "lake of fire", making the lake of fire of Rev.20 a one time event. The KJV translators did not always make distinctions in their translation at times between the pit of hell vs. the lake of fire. They simply translated most all of them as hell.

Continued Bible study and historical research reveals how Satan's servants take truths from God's Word and exploit them for their own aims. The original meanings of the Zodiac star constellations is another case in point. The Christian scholar E.W. Bullinger did an excellent documented study in his travels to discover the original meanings behind the Zodiac star constellations. Paganism has corrupted their original meanings, which is what he researched in his travels. The Zodiac's original meanings align with God's Word, not with pagan astrology, etc.

It is interesting to see these days some Christians blame pagan influences in Christian thinking or the Bible. I am talking about Hell fire being suggested it was incorporated in the Bible because of the pagans believed in the same thing.

First of ALL if you think the Devil managed to slip some untruths past the Holy Spirit who inspired the Bible you then cannot Believe the whole Bible is True and you start to have many troubles there. The Word of God is not compromised. We know it is authored by the Lord Himself and the Lord only speaks the Truth. However that is something each person has to make up his or her mind about. Is the Bible completely God's Truth.

I believe it is so.

The second thing is that pagans could have come to many beliefs that are from God. You see the best lie is wrapped in the Truth and I am sure Satan steals or plagiarizes if you will much material from God. After all the Devil doesn't have much of his own material to work with.

So why don't we immediately think when we hear of the Greek mythology and the place called Hades a place of fire and where the dead go could be based on God's Word and not the other way around? Because we do not believe the Word of God is completely True.

So the problem is not that the Pagans believe in a place of Hell fire a place of the Dead and so proving the Bible is compromised.

Remember the Lord has constantly spoken to all mankind for many years. Yes God didn't just speak to Abraham and his decendants. God kept on reaching out to all people on this Earth. Unfortunately many were not willing to listen. However some of what God communicated to mankind is certainly reflected in many Pagan religions in bits and pieces. Unfortunately what the Pagans heard from God got mixed up in their darkened minds by the Devil and they mixed it up and gave homage to their own gods or idols. You will be amazed at many clear Christian teachings in some Pagan religions that are quite Biblical concepts.

We don't dismiss marriage between men & women just because many Pagan religions practice the same thing do we? This is just one example I can think of at the top of my head. Yet in the case of an Eternal Lake of Fire where the dead who are judged will be thrown in after the Devil and his close followers is easily dismissed by some as Pagan ideas having inflitrated God's Written Truth?

2TI 3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

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It doesn't say only some scripture is from the Lord but ALL scripture. So you either believe that or you don't. However, if you don't believe ALL scripture is from the Lord then you open yourself to the Devil having a heyday with your faith.

Surely if the Bible tells us that God gave us the complete written Word we have today then the concept of Eternal Hell fire is given to us by God and not just a pagan influence on the writters of the New Testament.

Amazing Grace said:

It is interesting to see these days some Christians blame pagan influences in Christian thinking or the Bible. I am talking about Hell fire being suggested it was incorporated in the Bible because of the pagans believed in the same thing.

First of ALL if you think the Devil managed to slip some untruths past the Holy Spirit who inspired the Bible you then cannot Believe the whole Bible is True and you start to have many troubles there. The Word of God is not compromised. We know it is authored by the Lord Himself and the Lord only speaks the Truth. However that is something each person has to make up his or her mind about. Is the Bible completely God's Truth.

I believe it is so.

The second thing is that pagans could have come to many beliefs that are from God. You see the best lie is wrapped in the Truth and I am sure Satan steals or plagiarizes if you will much material from God. After all the Devil doesn't have much of his own material to work with.

So why don't we immediately think when we hear of the Greek mythology and the place called Hades a place of fire and where the dead go could be based on God's Word and not the other way around? Because we do not believe the Word of God is completely True.

So the problem is not that the Pagans believe in a place of Hell fire a place of the Dead and so proving the Bible is compromised.

Remember the Lord has constantly spoken to all mankind for many years. Yes God didn't just speak to Abraham and his decendants. God kept on reaching out to all people on this Earth. Unfortunately many were not willing to listen. However some of what God communicated to mankind is certainly reflected in many Pagan religions in bits and pieces. Unfortunately what the Pagans heard from God got mixed up in their darkened minds by the Devil and they mixed it up and gave homage to their own gods or idols. You will be amazed at many clear Christian teachings in some Pagan religions that are quite Biblical concepts.

We don't dismiss marriage between men & women just because many Pagan religions practice the same thing do we? This is just one example I can think of at the top of my head. Yet in the case of an Eternal Lake of Fire where the dead who are judged will be thrown in after the Devil and his close followers is easily dismissed by some as Pagan ideas having inflitrated God's Written Truth?



It doesn't say only some scripture is from the Lord but ALL scripture. So you either believe that or you don't. However, if you don't believe ALL scripture is from the Lord then you open yourself to the Devil having a heyday with your faith.

Surely if the Bible tells us that God gave us the complete written Word we have today then the concept of Eternal Hell fire is given to us by God and not just a pagan influence on the writters of the New Testament.

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The scripture that is inspired by God is the original text. The translations may have been inspired by men who believed in God and may have meant well but the translations deviate from the original then you must conclude that the original is correct and for some reason, may it be poor translation or poor knowledge of the old languages they were in fact corrupted to some extinct.

He the word "hell" was derived from Old English or Saxon and means "To cover" and was used as "the ground"
Old English farmers used to say "I'm going to bury my tators in hell"

Jonah we're told was swallowed up by a Huge fish, A whale? And he said he was in HELL. or Did he?
NO he did not according to the original scripture.


The Messiach spoke of Gehenna which was falsely translated as "HeLL"

Here is a modern image of Gehenna Valley that Yashua spoke of and the only other apostle to mention Gehenna was James which had nothing to do with punishment.

Where it the eternal Fires of HELL?
Hell will also be thrown in the Lake of Fire and be destroyed with death itself we are told in Hosea..

It was a parable and HELL was not an Aramaic word which should be sufficient proof of a improper translation or deviation form the original text.

Words translated as HELL:
Tartaros
The PIt
The Grave
Sheol
Hades
Belly of a huge fish
Gehenna
Gehenna Fire

If preaching the fear of eternal HELLFIRE was so important then most NT writers wold have spoke on it yes?
Only Yeshua mentioned Gehenna and Gehenna Fire as a place of eternal torment.

Gehenna Valley was a nasty garbage dump in Yeshua's day
Where the worm died not and the flames continued to burn and smolder and even the corpses of the poor and or criminals.
Leopards were outcast there until they died or got better.

Jas 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of Gehenna.

The Gehenna Valley runs south of the City of David and southeast into the Lake of Fire, a physical location in Israel a.k.a the Dead Sea.


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