Parable Of Lazarus And The Richman

TheWarIs1 said:

The scripture that is inspired by God is the original text. The translations may have been inspired by men who believed in God and may have meant well but the translations deviate from the original then you must conclude that the original is correct and for some reason, may it be poor translation or poor knowledge of the old languages they were in fact corrupted to some extinct.

...
Gehenna Valley was a nasty garbage dump in Yeshua's day
Where the worm died not and the flames continued to burn and smolder and even the corpses of the poor and or criminals.
Leopards were outcast there until they died or got better.

....

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Which "original text" do you have?

I didn't know there were "leopards" in Israel.

tomwebster said:

Which "original text" do you have?

I didn't know there were "leopards" in Israel.

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Lepers too
Yes the Leopards hang out in the Zoo near the tigers.

A good concordance will show the words that the Greek translations were taken from.

I personally like the Aramaic Peshita NT which is believed to be the primacy by some today and used in the Eastern Orthodox churches.
While some so called scholars long ago jumped to conclude that a Greek version was the primacy of the NT scriptures the Peshitta was mostly hidden from circulation.
The Idioms and Aramaic expressions only work in the Peshitta and all meanings are mostly lost in translation.
.
Hell is never mentioned in Murdock version or even the Youngs literal translations and they don't belong in the bible.

Shlama

The original writings of the Bible, both the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly called the Old Testament) and Christian Greek Scriptures (commonly called the New Testament) were free of error. However, not long after the death of the last apostle John, apostasy began in earnest, with unauthorized changes being made to Greek manuscripts, such as the change of "who" at 1 Timothy 3:16 to an abbreviation for "God", and thus changing the reading of "who was made manifest in the flesh" to "God was made manifest in the flesh" in support of the trinity.

Additionally, in translating certain Hebrew and Greek words, the King James Bible has failed to properly render them consistently, such as the Hebrew word she’ohl´, which corresponds to the Greek word hai´des. In the King James Bible, the Hebrew word she’ohl´ is translated 31 times as "hell", 31 times as "grave", and 3 times as "pit". Only the English word "grave" closely conforms to the Hebrew word she’ohl´, not "hell" nor "pit", thus showing the inconsistency and inaccuracy of the King James Bible.

The Greek word hai´des is translated as "hell" 10 times in the King James Bible, and the Greek word tartaroo as "hell" at 2 Peter 2:4. Some Bibles only transliterate hai´des and tartaroo rather than attempt to place an improper rendering (as also with the Hebrew word she’ohl´). In the year 1611, when the King James Bible was released, the word "hell" did not have the meaning of a place of eternal torment. Rather, the word "hell" in archaic English meant, not roasting someone, but to "conceal" something, for Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005 says of "hell ": "Old English hel(l) . Ultimately from an Indo-European word meaning “to conceal,” which is also the ancestor of English conceal."

It is, in fact, because of the way that the word “hell” is understood today that it is such an unsatisfactory translation of these original Bible words. Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under “Hell” says: “fr[om] . . . helan to conceal.” The word “hell” thus originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a ‘covered over or concealed place.’ In the old English dialect the expression “helling potatoes” meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar.

However, because Jesus used another Greek word - Gehenna (at Matt 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9)- in which he associated fire with it, that many have a misplaced belief in eternal torment by God. At Matthew 10:28, Jesus does not say that a person is eternally tormented but "rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Greek Gehenna, King James Bible) Thus, the English word "hell" is here (incorrectly) translated from Gehenna (rather than hai´des) by the King James Bible, and says that a person is ' destroyed ' when thrown into Gehenna and not tormented.

Jesus used the Greek word apollumi, meaning "destroy fully" at Matthew 10:28 and which is the same word used by Matthew at Matthew 12:14 to say that "the Pharisees went out, and held a council against (Jesus), how they might destroy (Greek apollumi) him"(King James Bible) and is the same word used by the demon who entreated Jesus, saying: "Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy (Greek apollumi) us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God."(Mark 1:24, King James Bible)

Guestman said:

The original writings of the Bible, both the Hebrew Scriptures (commonly called the Old Testament) and Christian Greek Scriptures (commonly called the New Testament) were free of error. However, not long after the death of the last apostle John, apostasy began in earnest, with unauthorized changes being made to Greek manuscripts, such as the change of "who" at 1 Timothy 3:16 to an abbreviation for "God", and thus changing the reading of "who was made manifest in the flesh" to "God was made manifest in the flesh" in support of the trinity.

Additionally, in translating certain Hebrew and Greek words, the King James Bible has failed to properly render them consistently, such as the Hebrew word she’ohl´, which corresponds to the Greek word hai´des. In the King James Bible, the Hebrew word she’ohl´ is translated 31 times as "hell", 31 times as "grave", and 3 times as "pit". Only the English word "grave" closely conforms to the Hebrew word she’ohl´, not "hell" nor "pit", thus showing the inconsistency and inaccuracy of the King James Bible.

The Greek word hai´des is translated as "hell" 10 times in the King James Bible, and the Greek word tartaroo as "hell" at 2 Peter 2:4. Some Bibles only transliterate hai´des and tartaroo rather than attempt to place an improper rendering (as also with the Hebrew word she’ohl´). In the year 1611, when the King James Bible was released, the word "hell" did not have the meaning of a place of eternal torment. Rather, the word "hell" in archaic English meant, not roasting someone, but to "conceal" something, for Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005 says of "hell ": "Old English hel(l) . Ultimately from an Indo-European word meaning “to conceal,” which is also the ancestor of English conceal."

It is, in fact, because of the way that the word “hell” is understood today that it is such an unsatisfactory translation of these original Bible words. Webster’s Third New International Dictionary, unabridged, under “Hell” says: “fr[om] . . . helan to conceal.” The word “hell” thus originally conveyed no thought of heat or torment but simply of a ‘covered over or concealed place.’ In the old English dialect the expression “helling potatoes” meant, not to roast them, but simply to place the potatoes in the ground or in a cellar.

However, because Jesus used another Greek word - Gehenna (at Matt 5:22, 29, 30; 10:28; 18:9)- in which he associated fire with it, that many have a misplaced belief in eternal torment by God. At Matthew 10:28, Jesus does not say that a person is eternally tormented but "rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Greek Gehenna, King James Bible) Thus, the English word "hell" is here (incorrectly) translated from Gehenna (rather than hai´des) by the King James Bible, and says that a person is ' destroyed ' when thrown into Gehenna and not tormented.

Jesus used the Greek word apollumi, meaning "destroy fully" at Matthew 10:28 and which is the same word used by Matthew at Matthew 12:14 to say that "the Pharisees went out, and held a council against (Jesus), how they might destroy (Greek apollumi) him"(King James Bible) and is the same word used by the demon who entreated Jesus, saying: "Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy (Greek apollumi) us? I know thee who thou art, the Holy One of God."(Mark 1:24, King James Bible)

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I agree with most of your post here. but I strongly disagree that the Greek was free of errors.

Christ spoke in Aramaic as his native language. He may have spoke Greek but... The NT writings had several Aramaic Phrases recorded among the Greek translations.


If one was to research the Aramaic Peshi-tta they would likely discover that the book appears to be the primacy of the scripture instead of the Greek.
Several Greek translations have words that don't agree but tracing one word back to the Pehi-tta will often show the other word which was an ambiguous Aramaic word and was proves a mistranslation to Greek..

TheWarIs1 said:

I agree with most of your post here. but I strongly disagree that the Greek was free of errors.

Christ spoke in Aramaic as his native language. He may have spoke Greek but... The NT writings had several Aramaic Phrases recorded among the Greek translations.


If one was to research the Aramaic Peshi-tta they would likely discover that the book appears to be the primacy of the scripture instead of the Greek.
Several Greek translations have words that don't agree but tracing one word back to the Pehi-tta will often show the other word which was an ambiguous Aramaic word and was proves a mistranslation to Greek..

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Jesus spoke the language of the area of Israel during the 1st century, Koine or common Greek, along with perhaps a Galilean dialect of Aramaic.(Matt 27:46) Alexander the Great conquered Medo-Persian Empire in 331 B.C.E., and thus Greece became the 5th world power of Bible history (Dan 7:6), spreading the Grecian language. Though the apostle Matthew wrote his gospel originally in Hebrew and later translated in Greek, the last 26 books of the Bible were written in Koine Greek, the international language of the day.

In the following centuries, the Bible was translated into Coptic (with the Chester Beatty manuscript 813 containing the book of John in Sahidic Coptic), Aramaic (Syriac Pesh itta, 5th century C.E.) and Latin (Jerome's Latin Vulgate, 5th century C.E.). The Hebrew Scriptures (with a small part in Aramaic, a language related to Hebrew), commonly called the Old Testament, was translated into Koine Greek in the latter part of the third century B.C.E. and was called the Septuagint.

This was due to the fact that Koine Greek was now the language of the Grecian Empire, the lingua franca or international auxiliary language and had spread far and wide, including the land of Israel. Reportedly, work on it commenced in Egypt in the days of Ptolemy Philadelphus (285-246 B.C.E.), when, according to tradition, the Pentateuch thereof was translated into Greek by 72 Jewish scholars at Alexandria, Egypt.

That what the Bible writers wrote originally was free of errors is seen by the apostle Paul's words: "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."(2 Tim 3:16, 17) Peter wrote that "prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit."(2 Pet 1:21) David had written over a thousand years earlier: "The spirit of Jehovah it was that spoke by me, and his word was upon my tongue."(2 Sam 23:2)

Jesus assured his apostles that God’s spirit would help them, teaching, guiding, and recalling to their minds the things they had heard from him, as well as revealing to them future things. (John 14:26; 16:13) This assured the truthfulness and accuracy of their Gospel accounts, including many lengthy quotations of Jesus’ speeches, even though John’s Gospel account, for example, was written scores of years after the death of Jesus, with the Gospel of John, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John being written around 98 C.E.

Guestman said:

Jesus spoke the language of the area of Israel during the 1st century, Koine or common Greek, along with perhaps a Galilean dialect of Aramaic.(Matt 27:46) Alexander the Great conquered Medo-Persian Empire in 331 B.C.E., and thus Greece became the 5th world power of Bible history (Dan 7:6), spreading the Grecian language. Though the apostle Matthew wrote his gospel originally in Hebrew and later translated in Greek, the last 26 books of the Bible were written in Koine Greek, the international language of the day.

In the following centuries, the Bible was translated into Coptic (with the Chester Beatty manuscript 813 containing the book of John in Sahidic Coptic), Aramaic (Syriac Pesh itta, 5th century C.E.) and Latin (Jerome's Latin Vulgate, 5th century C.E.). The Hebrew Scriptures (with a small part in Aramaic, a language related to Hebrew), commonly called the Old Testament, was translated into Koine Greek in the latter part of the third century B.C.E. and was called the Septuagint.

This was due to the fact that Koine Greek was now the language of the Grecian Empire, the lingua franca or international auxiliary language and had spread far and wide, including the land of Israel. Reportedly, work on it commenced in Egypt in the days of Ptolemy Philadelphus (285-246 B.C.E.), when, according to tradition, the Pentateuch thereof was translated into Greek by 72 Jewish scholars at Alexandria, Egypt.

That what the Bible writers wrote originally was free of errors is seen by the apostle Paul's words: "All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work."(2 Tim 3:16, 17) Peter wrote that "prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit."(2 Pet 1:21) David had written over a thousand years earlier: "The spirit of Jehovah it was that spoke by me, and his word was upon my tongue."(2 Sam 23:2)

Jesus assured his apostles that God’s spirit would help them, teaching, guiding, and recalling to their minds the things they had heard from him, as well as revealing to them future things. (John 14:26; 16:13) This assured the truthfulness and accuracy of their Gospel accounts, including many lengthy quotations of Jesus’ speeches, even though John’s Gospel account, for example, was written scores of years after the death of Jesus, with the Gospel of John, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John being written around 98 C.E.

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While most English translations have omitted the book of Macrabees and others they were important and showed that the real Judeans fought the Hellenization of their culture.
They fought tooth and nail to keep Hebrew and Aramaic. It was Herod the Idumean who ended the power of the Judeans, the same Herod that attempted to kill all baby boys when Christ was born.

the disciples spoke their Native language mostly., The finding of the Dead Sea scrolls came about long after teh so-called scholars told the world that Greek was the primacy of scripture.
The enemy of Christ which were many including Romans and Jews at times tried to ban and burn all bibles of the NT.
Aramaic scripures may have mostly been burned but they did little good to those in Rome who preferred Greek.
It was advantageous for them to use and promote Greek scriptures.

There is much evidence to prove the Aramaic Peshi-tta was the Primacy of NT scripture though so-called modern scholars have little reason to investigate it.
the Peshi-tta means the Straight Word and makes for an interesting investigation.

The idioms the apostles used were written in Aramaic and lost to translation.
The idioms and Aramaic wordplays are proof of the Aramaic primacy.
There are Zero Idioms in Greek scriptures.

peshitta.org/forum/

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TheWarIs1 said:

...
There is much evidence to prove the Aramaic Peshi-tta was the Primacy of NT scripture though so-called modern scholars have little reason to investigate it.
the Peshi-tta means the Straight Word and makes for an interesting investigation.

....

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GOD can preserve HIS WORD the way HE wants to preserve it. You can read anything YOU want, I WILL DO THE SAME!.

I agree with Veteran. Whether or not it is a parable is not the issue. The issue is that it is the reality of how terrible hell is. The warning should be heeded. Warn others now about the horror that is hell before it is too late! God bless everyone for your comments. I really learned a lot reading everyone's perspective, and for this I am thankful.

AH but you miss the beauty of the parable in your attempt to condemn all sinners to eternal punishment.

No loving god would ever torment beings for eternity.


Yah already said in the book of Hosea that it never came in his mind to burn sons and daughters in "hinnom"(hell)

and you refuse to believe YAHWEH !!!
OH milk babe time to change your diet!


Get your mind off of eternal damnation and study the entire scripture how abouts it.

TheWarIs1 said:

AH but you miss the beauty of the parable in your attempt to condemn all sinners to eternal punishment.

No loving god would ever torment beings for eternity.


Yah already said in the book of Hosea that it never came in his mind to burn sons and daughters in "hinnom"(hell)

and you refuse to believe YAHWEH !!!
OH milk babe time to change your diet!


Get your mind off of eternal damnation and study the entire scripture how abouts it.

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[sup]24[/sup] “The rich man shouted, ‘Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. I am in anguish in these flames.’
[sup]25[/sup] “But Abraham said to him, ‘Son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish. [sup]26[/sup] And besides, there is a great chasm separating us. No one can cross over to you from here, and no one can cross over to us from there.’
[sup]27[/sup] “Then the rich man said, ‘Please, Father Abraham, at least send him to my father’s home. [sup]28[/sup] For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them so they don’t end up in this place of torment.’
[sup]29[/sup] “But Abraham said, ‘Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read what they wrote.’
[sup]30[/sup] “The rich man replied, ‘No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will repent of their sins and turn to God.’
[sup]31[/sup] “But Abraham said, ‘If they won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they won’t listen even if someone rises from the dead.’”



Where is the hope in the rich man's view? 2 Peter 2 speaks to the doom awaiting the unrighteous.

The real facts still are, words like "hell", "pit", "prison", "bottomless pit", etc., are used as symbols for a real place of separation in the Heavenly for the wicked angels, and wicked dead. Debates over the translation of geenha for hell, or Old English definitions for the word hell is not going to change that.


1 Pet 3:18-20
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also He went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
(KJV)

Christ being "quickened by the Spirit" after His death and resurrection was specifically how... He was able to go preach to those "spirits in prison". That prison is a Heavenly order prison, and not some hole in the ground.


Rev 20:7
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
(KJV)

Does God have prisons for the wicked here on earth today? Yep. Got a prison in the Heavenly also for the wicked after they die. It's associated with Satan's abode in the Heavenly.


Rev 20:2-3
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
(KJV)

Rev 17:8
8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
(KJV)

Rev 9:11
11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.
(KJV)

Those names for that angel of the bottomless pit mean 'The Destroyer', another title for Satan himself, since he is already sentenced to perish in the future lake of fire. If an 'angel' is associated with that idea of a "bottomless pit", that cannot mean some hole in the ground nor just a mythical place, but a real place in the Heavenly.


Jude 1:6
6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
(KJV)

2 Pet 2:4
4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
(KJV)

Use of the idea of 'chains' is about imprisonment. A literal place in the Heavenly for the wicked exists, like a prison, and that's what that idea of chains for those angels is in relation to.


Rev 12:7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
(KJV)

That Rev.12 Scripture was not history; it is yet to happen, for it's about the future when Satan and his host of angels are cast down to this earth a second time, for the coming tribulation. We know Satan is not locked in his pit prison yet, simply because Rev.20 tells us that will happen when Christ returns. Satan's original fall from Heaven did not limit his movement, for Job 1 & 2 reveals he still has ability to appear before God's Throne in Heaven to accuse us. Rev.9 & 11 reveal his home right now is still in the Heavenly spiritual dimension, for that's where the "bottomless pit" is located. Isaiah 42:7 suggests there's wicked locked inside the pit prison in Heaven, and also some in darkness who sit outside that prison house.


Zech 9:11
11 As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water.
(KJV)

Isa 42:6-7
6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;
7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.
(KJV)

That referred to Christ's first coming to bring people out of spiritual darkness that were in Satan's clutch, and to release people from literal prisons on earth (Acts 16:26), but also for those "spirits in prison" He preached to after His death and resurrection. That "spirits in prison" event did not take place upon this earth. It took place in the Heavenly dimension for the dead in a Heavenly pit, a place of separation in the Heavenly away from God, just like what our Lord Jesus was showing in the Luke 16 Scripture about Lazarus and the rich man.


Isa 24:19-23
19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly.
20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again.
21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before His ancients gloriously.
(KJV)

That above is about the time right after Christ's second coming, when Satan will be locked in his prison pit for a thousand years. Evidently, he's going to have company, with those above shut up in the prison along with him, and at the end of the thousand years, God is going to pay them a little visit. This is why at the end of Rev.20 we shown a literal place called 'hell' is destined to go into the "lake of fire", revealing a literal place of holding for the wicked in the Heavenly.

Paul said:

Luke does not label it as a parable so I believe is an account of what happens when a person dies. We are told in Eccl that the moment the cord is cut, meaning, when we die, we instantly return to the Father. The part that is added is that there is a gulf separating the believer and the non-believer over which one may not cross. The souls of the dead are not buried in some hole in the ground, but return to the Father.

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Hi Paul, good post...

Return means: “to go or come back; revert; bring, give, send, hit, put, or pay back; a going or coming back, a happening again.”

Ever thought about where these spirits came from that the word return refers to them after the death of their body?

Here are some more verses about this:

Job 1:21 - And Job said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb and naked shall I return thither.

Psalm 9:17 -
KJV - The wicked shall be turned into hell ...
NASV - The wicked shall return to Sheol ...
Kiel - Delitzsch(#16) - Yea, back to Hades must the wicked

KJV bias against returning shown here?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto GOD who gave it.

1 Peter 2:25 - For ye were as sheep going astray: but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

If we had no existence before being created in earthly bodies, then do we return to anhilation? Doesn't seem to be what is meant, does it? So what is meant?

God bless,

Ted

What Solomon thought in his writing of Ecclesiastes was what was known under the Old Covenant.When the word tells us that our spirit returns to God, it is merely saying that we will one day all have a personal reckoning with the Lord. The sinner's spirit is dead, and so it goes to Hades to await Judgment. The saint's spirit goes directly to God, later to have a reward ceremony with Jesus Christ, because we do not stand judgment.

The Bible does not teach us of a pre-existence.

Rev.20:

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Lively Stone said:

What Solomon thought in his writing of Ecclesiastes was what was known under the Old Covenant.When the word tells us that our spirit returns to God, it is merely saying that we will one day all have a personal reckoning with the Lord. The sinner's spirit is dead, and so it goes to Hades to await Judgment. The saint's spirit goes directly to God, later to have a reward ceremony with Jesus Christ, because we do not stand judgment.

The Bible does not teach us of a pre-existence.

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Can you show scripture where it says we do not stand judgment? According to scripture each person is judge on what they have done..

Saints will stand at the Judgment Seat of Christ, or the Bema Seat in order that we be evaluated for rewards, and to give an account of our lives lived for Christ to Christ. It is not a judgment to determine salvation. It is not to be confused with the Great White Throne Judgment, which happens at least 1000 years after the Church has already been rewarded and reigned with Jesus Christ in that Millennial period. (Revelation 20:11-15)

We are not judged as the sinner is judged because our sins are done away with.

Some people believe that the Bema Seat takes place upon death, while others believe it occurs immediately after the Rapture of the Church, where the Bride is taken by the Bridegroom and receives her crowns.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15
12 Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials—gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. 13 But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. 14 If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward. 15 But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.

In 2 Corinthians 5:10, Paul gives the Corinthian church an illustration of the Bema Seat, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad." Paul is teaching us that all Christians will stand before the Bema Seat of Christ. At the Bema Seat, Jesus Christ will bring to light every deed-good or bad-that each believer has done on earth since he or she became a Christian. Every Christian will be rewarded based on his words, deeds, and faithfulness.

Lively Stone said:

What Solomon thought in his writing of Ecclesiastes was what was known under the Old Covenant.When the word tells us that our spirit returns to God, it is merely saying that we will one day all have a personal reckoning with the Lord. The sinner's spirit is dead, and so it goes to Hades to await Judgment. The saint's spirit goes directly to God, later to have a reward ceremony with Jesus Christ, because we do not stand judgment.

The Bible does not teach us of a pre-existence.

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Yes "The sinner's spirit is dead, and so it goes to Hades to await Judgment. The saint's spirit goes directly to God, later to have a reward ceremony with Jesus Christ, because we do not stand judgment."

the spirits will all return there...so it plainly says in more places than Ecclesiastes. <shrug>

Blessings,

Ted

ttruscott said:

Yes "The sinner's spirit is dead, and so it goes to Hades to await Judgment. The saint's spirit goes directly to God, later to have a reward ceremony with Jesus Christ, because we do not stand judgment."

the spirits will all return there...so it plainly says in more places than Ecclesiastes. <shrug>

Blessings,

Ted

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Which all leads right back to what our Lord Jesus was revealing in Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man, and a place of separation in the heavenly. When Jesus taught about the "outer darkness" that will exist on earth after His return, that should have also been enough clue as to a place of separation between the just and the unjust per Luke 16, because the Heavenly is going to be revealed here on earth with Christ's coming.

ttruscott said:

Yes "The sinner's spirit is dead, and so it goes to Hades to await Judgment. The saint's spirit goes directly to God, later to have a reward ceremony with Jesus Christ, because we do not stand judgment."

the spirits will all return there...so it plainly says in more places than Ecclesiastes. <shrug>

Blessings,

Ted

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All spirits will see God, but not at the same time. The righteous dead go to God immediately, but the wicked dead do not. They are held in separation from God in Hades to be resurrected to stand before God at the end of all things. This is what God's word teaches.

Revelation 20:4-5
Then I saw thrones, and the people sitting on them had been given the authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony about Jesus and for proclaiming the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his statue, nor accepted his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They all came to life again, and they reigned with Christ for a thousand years. [sup]5[/sup] This is the first resurrection. (The rest of the dead did not come back to life until the thousand years had ended.)


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