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BarneyFife

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Personally I think the words eternal torment are used to communicate exactly what they say.

On this part:

1 Corinthians 2:7-10
7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9) But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10) But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

The things which God has prepared for them that love Him, God has revealed to us by His Spirit. That Jesus would die for us. That we would live in Him. Who knew?!

Much love!
It is not necessary to search deep for the hidden wisdom of the doctrine of eternal torment. It is the de facto, default, pagan-influenced and (unfortunately) traditional Christian standard. Fear of eternal torment is counterbalanced by the doctrine of eternal security. They go hand in hand. But not for long. The truth is coming out. God is love--real, voluntary love--not captivism and unspeakable cruelty and malice.
 
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marks

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It is not necessary to search deep for the hidden wisdom of the doctrine of eternal torment. It is the de facto, default, pagan-influenced and (unfortunately) traditional Christian standard.
Regardless of any of that, it's what I find in the Bible. And it is what the Jewish people understood as well. If I knew nothing else, and only what is written in the Bible, again, that's what I find.

While this may seem to some that it would mean God to be a monster of some sort, I don't agree, and I realize that God's ways are not always able to be understood by man.

What IF in fact the man's soul were created to last forever? That for some unknown to us wisdom of God, that this was the good way? What if we didn't undermine the seriousness of plainly stated words, because we don't understand how that could be?

Much love!
 

BarneyFife

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What if we didn't undermine the seriousness of plainly stated words
But it's okay to undermine the seriousness of plainly stated words such as these?

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matthew 10:28)

“The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

“Sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death” (James 1:15).

“The cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death” (Revelation 21:8).

Genesis 3
22Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

“They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them” (Revelation 20:9).

“The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up” (2 Peter 3:10).

“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work” (Revelation 22:12).

“He will reward each according to his works” (Matthew 16:27).

“That servant who knew his master’s will, and did not ... do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few” (Luke 12:47, 48).

“Behold, they shall be as stubble, the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame; it shall not be a coal to be warmed by, nor a fire to sit before!” (Isaiah 47:14).

“I saw a new heaven and a new earth. ... And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away” (Revelation 21:1, 4).

“ ‘Behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up ... that will leave them neither root nor branch. ... You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,’ says the Lord of hosts” (Malachi 4:1, 3).

For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. (Psalm 37:10)

But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. (Psalm 37:20)

“The soul who sins shall die” (Ezekiel 18:20).

“The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire” (Revelation 20:10).
“I turned you to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all who saw you. … You … shall be no more forever” (Ezekiel 28:18, 19).

“ ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die?’ ” (Ezekiel 33:11).

“The Son of Man did not come to destroy men’s lives but to save them” (Luke 9:56).






The word “hell” is used 54 times in the Bible (KJV), and in only 12 cases does it refer to “a place of burning.”


The word "hell" is translated from several different words with various meanings, as indicated below:

IN THE OLD TESTAMENT
31 times from "Sheol," which means the grave."

IN THE NEW TESTAMENT
10 times from "Hades," which means "the grave."
12 times from "Gehenna," which means "the place of burning."
1 time from "Tartarus," which means "a place of darkness."
54 TIMES TOTAL




1. Doesn’t the Bible speak of “eternal torment”?

No—the phrase “eternal torment” does not appear in the Bible.

2. Then why does the Bible say that the wicked will be destroyed with unquenchable fire?

Unquenchable fire is fire that cannot be put out, but which goes out when it has turned everything to ashes. Jeremiah 17:27 says Jerusalem was to be destroyed with unquenchable fire, and in 2 Chronicles 36:19–21 the Bible says this fire burned the city “to fulfill the word of the Lord by the mouth of Jeremiah” and left it desolate. Yet we know this fire went out, because Jerusalem
is not burning today.

3. Doesn’t Matthew 25:46 say the wicked will receive “everlasting punishment”?

Notice the word is punishment, not punishing. Punishing would be continuous, while punishment is one act. The punishment of the wicked is death, and this death is everlasting.

4. Can you explain Matthew 10:28: “Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul”?

The word “soul” has three meanings in the Bible: (1) a living being, Genesis 2:7—(2) the mind, Psalm 139:14—and (3) life, 1 Samuel 18:1. Also, Matthew 10:28 refers to the soul as the eternal life that God guarantees to all who accept it. No one can take this away.

5. Matthew 25:41 speaks of “everlasting fire” for the wicked. Does it go out?

Yes. According to the Bible, it does. We must let the Bible explain itself. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with everlasting, or eternal, fire (Jude 1:7), and that fire turned them “into ashes” as a warning to “those who afterward would live ungodly” (2 Peter 2:6). These cities are not burning today. The fire went out after everything was burned up. Likewise, everlasting fire will go out after it has turned the wicked to ashes (Malachi 4:3). The effects of the fire are everlasting, but not the burning itself.

6. Doesn’t the story of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke16:19-31 teach an eternal hell of torment?

No! It is a parable Jesus used to emphasize a certain spiritual lesson. The point of the story is found in verse 31. Parables should not be taken literally—otherwise, we would believe that trees talk! (See Judges 9:8–15.) Here are some facts making it clear that Luke 16:19–31 is a parable:

A. Abraham’s bosom is not heaven (Hebrews 11:8–10, 16).


B. People in hell can’t talk to those in heaven (Isaiah 65:17).


C. The dead are in their graves (Job 17:13; John 5:28, 29). The rich man was in bodily form with eyes, a tongue, etc., yet we know that the body does not go to hell at death but remains in the grave, as the Bible says.


D. People are rewarded at Christ’s second coming, not at death (Revelation 22:12).


E. The lost are cast into hell at the end of the world, not when they die (Matthew 13:40–42).

7. But the Bible speaks of the wicked being tormented "forever," doesn't it?

The term forever is used 56 times in the King James Bible in connection with things that have already ended.* It is like the word “tall,” which means something different in describing men, trees, or mountains. In Jonah 2:6, “forever” means “three days and nights.” In Deuteronomy 23:3, it means 10 generations. In the case of mankind, it means “as long as he lives” or “until death.” (See 1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14.) So the wicked will burn in the fire as long as they live, or until death. This fiery punishment for sin will vary according to the degree of sins for each individual, but after the punishment, the fire will go out. The unbiblical teaching of eternal torment has done more to drive people to atheism than any other invention of the devil. It is slander upon the loving character of a gracious heavenly Father and has done untold harm to the Christian cause.

*To check in a concordance, look up the word “ever.”
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Truth is truth Ronald...it matters not who speaks it. Any attempt to malign it by using a label is the convenient way of ignoring the evidence and maintaining denial. Resorting to labelling or demonising as a means of getting the upper hand is an age old strategy used by cowards in every conceivable arena where truth and error clash.
SDA are by themselves a
Truth is truth Ronald...it matters not who speaks it. Any attempt to malign it by using a label is the convenient way of ignoring the evidence and maintaining denial. Resorting to labelling or demonising as a means of getting the upper hand is an age old strategy used by cowards in every conceivable arena where truth and error clash.
Truth is truth ... and with all the disagreements on this forum on just about any topic, it gets kind of hidden, little morsels here and there that you have to sift through. "This one is right on this issue", then opps, "that comment isn't" ... and who can judge? We often disagree, go back and forth, rebuttal after rebuttal as others look on and sometimes it's evident that everyone has been disagreeing with this one guy, on every side he gets boxed in a corner, with no way out, so he takes a defensive posture, unwilling to learn, insistent and prideful of his knowledge, start's getting mean, calling people names and saying their doctrine is from the pit of hell ... or they are like their father, full of lies, Satan ... lol.
Truth is truth. SDA know the basics, the essentials, but on certain non-essential doctrines, like this one, most denominations disagree, even Catholics do. All I'm saying is, spare us the long lengthy chapters by identifying where this doctrine came from so that we don't have to sift through volumes and labor over hours of dialogue. "Hi, I would to share with everyone a doctrine from my church, SDA, about Hades, Hell, soul sleep, punishment, when, where, why and how ..." That's all I need, I won't bother, because I know what they believe, I've studied their view already and there is no need to go there again. It will save everyone a lot of time. If someone started a topic about the Trinity and slowly presented their case by being illusive and beating around the bush just to lure you in, by presenting scripture after scripture, building their case; but people sensed this guy had a sneaky agenda, so they joined in, were curious. They went back and forth with rebuttals, and it just wore people out and after a few hundred posts everyone realized, "This guy is a Jehovah Witness". The thread quickly ended. Why, shouldn't they try to convince him? You can, it's your time, but most of them are not interested in what you think, because they have the truth only! Why not just save everyone the time and come out and say where you got this doctrine. Unless of course you have an interpretation that is your own, non-traditional, rare, similar to other doctrines but unique; then you really couldn't spare them, they would have to sift through it and decide for themselves.
 
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marks

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But it's okay to undermine the seriousness of plainly stated words such as these?
No, of course not. Everything must be in context, and everything must harmonize.

3. Doesn’t Matthew 25:46 say the wicked will receive “everlasting punishment”?

Notice the word is punishment, not punishing. Punishing would be continuous, while punishment is one act. The punishment of the wicked is death, and this death is everlasting.

This isn't correct. Punishment is not the correct translation. This passage teaches that the wicked will be in torment forever.

And . . . check the meaning of death. Cessation of existance does not fit where death is used. For instance, that we were dead in sin did not mean we did not exist. John "saw the dead, great and small". These were dead, but they none the less stood before the judgment throne.

IF eternal life is to know God, what is eternal death, but not knowing God?

Much love!
 

BarneyFife

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SDA are by themselves a

Truth is truth ... and with all the disagreements on this forum on just about any topic, it gets kind of hidden, little morsels here and there that you have to sift through. "This one is right on this issue", then opps, "that comment isn't" ... and who can judge? We often disagree, go back and forth, rebuttal after rebuttal as others look on and sometimes it's evident that everyone has been disagreeing with this one guy, on every side he gets boxed in a corner, with no way out, so he takes a defensive posture, unwilling to learn, insistent and prideful of his knowledge, start's getting mean, calling people names and saying their doctrine is from the pit of hell ... or they are like their father, full of lies, Satan ... lol.
Truth is truth. SDA know the basics, the essentials, but on certain non-essential doctrines, like this one, most denominations disagree, even Catholics do. All I'm saying is, spare us the long lengthy chapters by identifying where this doctrine came from so that we don't have to sift through volumes and labor over hours of dialogue. "Hi, I would to share with everyone a doctrine from my church, SDA, about Hades, Hell, soul sleep, punishment, when, where, why and how ..." That's all I need, I won't bother, because I know what they believe, I've studied their view already and there is no need to go there again. It will save everyone a lot of time. If someone started a topic about the Trinity and slowly presented their case by being illusive and beating around the bush just to lure you in, by presenting scripture after scripture, building their case; but people sensed this guy had a sneaky agenda, so they joined in, were curious. They went back and forth with rebuttals, and it just wore people out and after a few hundred posts everyone realized, "This guy is a Jehovah Witness". The thread quickly ended. Why, shouldn't they try to convince him? You can, it's your time, but most of them are not interested in what you think, because they have the truth only! Why not just save everyone the time and come out and say where you got this doctrine. Unless of course you have an interpretation that is your own, non-traditional, rare, similar to other doctrines but unique; then you really couldn't spare them, they would have to sift through it and decide for themselves.
You are free to read or not read whatever you choose. Stop whining, please. Seventh-day Adventism was not a hard sell for me. It was like feasting after a 26-year fast in another denomination. The reason I don't wear a denominational name tag is that it invites prejudice. I am not ashamed to be a Seventh-day Adventist, but I'm not recruiting. I'm interested in the truth as it is in Jesus. So sue me and see how that goes. We have freedom of religion here where I am. And you're not a mod, so you can't dictate new rules. If you're spending too much time on the forum, curb it.
 
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quietthinker

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SDA are by themselves a

Truth is truth ... and with all the disagreements on this forum on just about any topic, it gets kind of hidden, little morsels here and there that you have to sift through. "This one is right on this issue", then opps, "that comment isn't" ... and who can judge? We often disagree, go back and forth, rebuttal after rebuttal as others look on and sometimes it's evident that everyone has been disagreeing with this one guy, on every side he gets boxed in a corner, with no way out, so he takes a defensive posture, unwilling to learn, insistent and prideful of his knowledge, start's getting mean, calling people names and saying their doctrine is from the pit of hell ... or they are like their father, full of lies, Satan ... lol.
Truth is truth. SDA know the basics, the essentials, but on certain non-essential doctrines, like this one, most denominations disagree, even Catholics do. All I'm saying is, spare us the long lengthy chapters by identifying where this doctrine came from so that we don't have to sift through volumes and labor over hours of dialogue. "Hi, I would to share with everyone a doctrine from my church, SDA, about Hades, Hell, soul sleep, punishment, when, where, why and how ..." That's all I need, I won't bother, because I know what they believe, I've studied their view already and there is no need to go there again. It will save everyone a lot of time. If someone started a topic about the Trinity and slowly presented their case by being illusive and beating around the bush just to lure you in, by presenting scripture after scripture, building their case; but people sensed this guy had a sneaky agenda, so they joined in, were curious. They went back and forth with rebuttals, and it just wore people out and after a few hundred posts everyone realized, "This guy is a Jehovah Witness". The thread quickly ended. Why, shouldn't they try to convince him? You can, it's your time, but most of them are not interested in what you think, because they have the truth only! Why not just save everyone the time and come out and say where you got this doctrine. Unless of course you have an interpretation that is your own, non-traditional, rare, similar to other doctrines but unique; then you really couldn't spare them, they would have to sift through it and decide for themselves.
one of the tactics of error is to stir up the water with irrelevancies.
 

BarneyFife

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No, of course not. Everything must be in context, and everything must harmonize.
Well, then, we have a serious problem defending eternal torment, don't we?
This isn't correct. Punishment is not the correct translation. This passage teaches that the wicked will be in torment forever.
punishment,
κόλασιν (kolasin)
Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 2851: Chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation. From kolazo; penal infliction.

All of these translators chose the word "punishment" in the rendering of Matthew 25:46:

New International Version
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

New Living Translation
“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”

English Standard Version
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Berean Study Bible
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Berean Literal Bible
And these will go away into eternal punishment; but the righteous into eternal life."

King James Bible
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

New King James Version
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

New American Standard Bible
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

NASB 1995
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

NASB 1977
“And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Amplified Bible
Then these [unbelieving people] will go away into eternal (unending) punishment, but those who are righteous and in right standing with God [will go, by His remarkable grace] into eternal (unending) life.”

Christian Standard Bible
“And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Holman Christian Standard Bible
"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

American Standard Version
And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

Contemporary English Version
Then Jesus said, "Those people will be punished forever. But the ones who pleased God will have eternal life."

Douay-Rheims Bible
And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

English Revised Version
And these shall go away into eternal punishment: but the righteous into eternal life.

Good News Translation
These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life."

GOD'S WORD® Translation
"These people will go away into eternal punishment, but those with God's approval will go into eternal life."

International Standard Version
These people will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life."

Literal Standard Version
And these will go away into continuous punishment, but the righteous into continuous life.”

NET Bible
And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

New Heart English Bible
These will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life."

Weymouth New Testament
"And these shall go away into the Punishment of the Ages, but the righteous into the Life of the Ages."

World English Bible
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Young's Literal Translation
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'



And . . . check the meaning of death. Cessation of existance does not fit where death is used.
Yeah, it most always does. Established hermeneutics dictate literal interpretation, unless symbolic is evident.
For instance, that we were dead in sin did not mean we did not exist.
It is fairly obvious when "death" is being used metaphorically. Especially with Paul.
John "saw the dead, great and small". These were dead, but they none the less stood before the judgment throne.
These are resurrected dead.

“The hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation” (John 5:28, 29).
IF eternal life is to know God, what is eternal death, but not knowing God?
Hard to know anything when you're dead.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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I'm glad you approve, but my view of the afterlife in Sheol is that there is unequivocally no such thing.
Actually your church translates the Hebrew word, Sheol as grave. Most theologians translate it as Hades, the underworld, netherworld, plaYou do say people just go in the grave when they die, right? You must know that many Christians believe you have a soul/spirit that is conscious when you die and either goes to be with the Lord or to Hades (the Greek word for Sheol). Sheol is the grave, but much deeper. Sheol comes from the root "shaol", which means to ask, demand or require. Hades is therefore asking, demanding and requiring souls. Where did it emerge in scripture? Job is probably the oldest book. Follow these passages.
"Before I go -- and I shall not return - To the land of darkness and deep shadow, The land of utter gloom as darkness itself ..."Job 10:21, 22
This is not describing a six foot deep grave.
"Can you discover the depths of God? Can you discover the limits of the Almighty? They are high as the heavens, what can you do? Deeper than Sheol, what can you know? Job 11:7, 8
Sheol is viewed by having depth, much deeper than six feet.
"The departed spirits tremble Under the waters and their inhabitants, Naked is Sheol before Him, And Abaddon has no covering." Job 26:5, 6
Here we have departed spirits that are trembling ... Wait a minute, I thought Barney said they were sleeping?

"Even after my skin is destroyed,
Yet from my flesh I shall see God." Job 19:26

So here Job confirms that when he dies, he goes to the Lord as Stephen claimed as he was being stoned to death. Paul said, To be absent the body is to be present with the Lord. "Have the gates of death been revealed to you, or have you seen the gates of the deep darkness?" Job 38:17
Let me ask you, what gates is this passage referring to?
How about the story of God's judgment against 250 rebellious men in the congregation?
"As he finished speaking all these words, the ground that was under split open; and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, and their households, and all the men who belonged to Korah with their possessions. So they and all that belonged to them went down alive to Sheol; and the earth closed over them, and they perished from the midst of the assembly. All Israel who were around them fled at their outcry, for they said, ' The earth may swallow us up!' Fire also came forth from the Lord and consumed the two hundred and fifty men who were offering the incense." Numbers 16:31-35
Apparently, fire consumed them that came out of Sheol. I guess they didn't have to wait for Judgment Day?
"For the fire is kindled in My anger, And burns to the lowest part of Sheol, and consumes the earth with its yield, And sets on fire the foundations of the mountains." Deut. 32:22
This verse literally describes fire that comes from inside the earth and out of volcanoes.

"I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it." Matt. 16:18


I think the cat of my affiliation is out of the bag, but thanks for your advice. :) By the way, the opposition of eternal torment is a position that is growing exponentially outside of the Adventist church. And it has never been exclusive to us.
I agree, I don't believe in eternal torture either, which is what inspired me to write a book about it. "Hell ... If I Know"

Different from what? Transubstantiation? Reincarnation? Predestination? Love feasts? Thetans? What's the standard that conversely defines "different?"
Barney, all the things you argue about, the Sabbath, soul sleep and Hell, whatever is contrary to what you have learned in your church. SDA has different doctrines.

Oh, and thanks for trying to derail the thread with your usual, half-clever distractions. Like attention much? :D
Not trying to derail it. I'm not your enemy, even though you've said some mean things in the past, I forgive you. And I will exit, because as our last dialogue ended in futility, no need for us to waste time. Just offered some others some scriptures and perspective about Hades - a little different than yours!
 

Brakelite

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SDA are by themselves a

Truth is truth ... and with all the disagreements on this forum on just about any topic, it gets kind of hidden, little morsels here and there that you have to sift through. "This one is right on this issue", then opps, "that comment isn't" ... and who can judge? We often disagree, go back and forth, rebuttal after rebuttal as others look on and sometimes it's evident that everyone has been disagreeing with this one guy, on every side he gets boxed in a corner, with no way out, so he takes a defensive posture, unwilling to learn, insistent and prideful of his knowledge, start's getting mean, calling people names and saying their doctrine is from the pit of hell ... or they are like their father, full of lies, Satan ... lol.
Truth is truth. SDA know the basics, the essentials, but on certain non-essential doctrines, like this one, most denominations disagree, even Catholics do. All I'm saying is, spare us the long lengthy chapters by identifying where this doctrine came from so that we don't have to sift through volumes and labor over hours of dialogue. "Hi, I would to share with everyone a doctrine from my church, SDA, about Hades, Hell, soul sleep, punishment, when, where, why and how ..." That's all I need, I won't bother, because I know what they believe, I've studied their view already and there is no need to go there again. It will save everyone a lot of time. If someone started a topic about the Trinity and slowly presented their case by being illusive and beating around the bush just to lure you in, by presenting scripture after scripture, building their case; but people sensed this guy had a sneaky agenda, so they joined in, were curious. They went back and forth with rebuttals, and it just wore people out and after a few hundred posts everyone realized, "This guy is a Jehovah Witness". The thread quickly ended. Why, shouldn't they try to convince him? You can, it's your time, but most of them are not interested in what you think, because they have the truth only! Why not just save everyone the time and come out and say where you got this doctrine. Unless of course you have an interpretation that is your own, non-traditional, rare, similar to other doctrines but unique; then you really couldn't spare them, they would have to sift through it and decide for themselves.
Wow. You said yourself, he quoted scripture after scripture. And then you demand he tells you where his doctrine comes from???? What kind of cognitive dissonance is this?
 

BarneyFife

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Actually your church translates the Hebrew word, Sheol as grave.
(And here we go with the typical, prejudiced "Your church...")

Uh, no, actually, the Bible does that, 31 out of the 66 times it is used in the Old Testament. The Seventh-day Adventist church wasn't formed until 1863. The King James Bible was produced 252 years before that.

Strong's Hebrew: 7585. שְׁאוֹל (sheol or sheol) — 66 Occurrences

Genesis 37:35
KJV: For I will go down into the grave unto my son

Genesis 42:38
KJV: with sorrow to the grave.

Genesis 44:29
KJV: with sorrow to the grave.

Genesis 44:31
KJV: our father with sorrow to the grave.

1 Samuel 2:6
KJV: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.

1 Kings 2:6
KJV: go down to the grave in peace.

1 Kings 2:9
KJV: bring thou down to the grave with blood.

Job 7:9
KJV: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up

Job 14:13
KJV: thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret,

Job 17:13
KJV: If I wait, the grave [is] mine house:

Job 21:13
KJV: and in a moment go down to the grave.

Job 24:19
KJV: waters: [so doth] the grave [those which] have sinned.

Psalm 6:5
KJV: [there is] no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalm 30:3
KJV: my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive,

Psalm 31:17
KJV: [and] let them be silent in the grave.

Psalm 49:14
KJV: they are laid in the grave; death

Psalm 49:14
KJV: shall consume in the grave from their dwelling.

Psalm 49:15
KJV: from the power of the grave: for he shall receive

Psalm 88:3

KJV: draweth nigh unto the grave.

Psalm 89:48

KJV: from the hand of the grave? Selah.

Psalm 141:7

KJV: are scattered at the grave's mouth,

Proverbs 1:12
KJV: alive as the grave; and whole,

Proverbs 30:16

KJV: The grave; and the barren womb;

Ecclesiastes 9:10
KJV: nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Songs 8:6
KJV: [is] cruel as the grave: the coals

Isaiah 14:11

KJV: is brought down to the grave, [and] the noise

Isaiah 38:10

KJV: to the gates of the grave: I am deprived

Isaiah 38:18
KJV: For the grave cannot praise

Ezekiel 31:15

KJV: when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning:

Hosea 13:14

KJV: them from the power of the grave; I will redeem

Hosea 13:14
KJV: be thy plagues; O grave, I will


If you'd like to use another version of the scriptures we can do that, but I feel it's only fair to warn you that eternal torment is even harder to defend from a non-KJV Bible.

I'm not your enemy
I never said you were (or even hinted at it), but your tendency to inject confusion into a discussion is extremely annoying. :(:mad:

I will exit
We'll see.
Talk about irrelevant, I just watched Australia, one of favorite movies - must have seen it 20 times.
I thought you were exiting.
 
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BarneyFife

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The Wicked Dead: Are They Now Being Punished? THIS is a question of awful solemnity, and should not be treated as a matter of speculation and idle curiosity. By far the larger part of mankind live in neglect of the great duties of religion, if not in open contempt of its most solemn commands. Such has ever been the fact with our fallen race. This vast throng of sinful men, for long ages have been pouring through the gates of death, and its dark portals hide them from our further view. What is the condition of this innumerable multitude of impenitent dead? Where are they, and what now is their real state?

To this question two answers are returned: 1. They are now suffering the torments of the damned. This is the answer of all the self-styled orthodox creeds. 2. They are now sleeping in the dust of the earth, awaiting the resurrection to damnation. This answer is believed by Seventh-day Adventists to be the harmonious teaching of the Scriptures on this subject. Which of these two answers is the true and proper one?

1. There is no statement in the Bible relating to the wicked dead in general, where they are in any way represented as in a state or place of torment. Nor is there any instance in the Bible where men are threatened that they shall, if wicked, enter an abode of misery at death. Even the warning of Jesus in Matthew 10:28, which is thought to contain the strongest proof of the soul’s immortality that can be found in all the Bible, says not one word concerning the suffering of the soul in hades, the place of the dead, but relates wholly to what shall be inflicted upon “both soul and body in gehenna,” the place of punishment for the resurrected wicked.

2. There being no general statement in the Bible representing the wicked dead as now in torment, and no instance in which the living wicked are threatened with consignment to the furnace of fire till after the judgment, we now search out the particular cases which may be thought to teach such fact. There are just two of these cases which may be cited as proving that some of the wicked dead are now in torment, and from these if at all, the torment of the wicked dead in general must be deduced. These cases are the Sodomites, “set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire” [Jude 7]; and the rich man lifting up his eyes in torment. Luke 16:22, 23. These are the only cases that can be cited from the Scriptures in proof that the wicked dead are now undergoing the punishment of their sins.

3. The case of the Sodomites then claims our attention. The text reads thus: “Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire,” Jude 7. Does the apostle mean to say that the Sodomites are now in the flames of eternal fire? The clause “suffering the vengeance of eternal fire,” is modified by the words “set forth for an example,” which immediately precede it. In fact the real meaning of the apostle in what he says of the sufferings of the Sodomites can only be determined by giving this phrase, “set forth for an example,” its proper bearing. To be “set forth for an example” to wicked men “suffering the vengeance of eternal fire,” one of two things must be true: 1. They must now be in a state of suffering in plain view of the inhabitants of the earth; or 2. They must be somewhere in the Scriptures set forth in the very act of suffering the vengeance of fire from heaven. If the first of these views be correct, then the Sodomites are indeed now in torment. But that view is not correct; for the very place where Sodom was burned is now covered by the Dead Sea.

That the second view is correct, is manifest from Genesis 19:24-28. “Then the Lord rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven; and he overthrew those cities, and all the plain, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and that which grew upon the ground. But his wife looked back from behind him, and she became a pillar of salt. And Abraham gat up early in the morning to the place where he stood before the Lord. And he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain, and beheld, and lo, the smoke of the country went up as the smoke of a furnace.”

Here the Sodomites are set forth for an example in the very act of suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Are they to this day in that fire? Peter bears testimony, and it is the more valuable in this case, because the chapter containing it is almost an exact parallel to the epistle of Jude. Thus he says: “Turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah INTO ASHES condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly.” 2 Peter 2:6. Peter thus shows that the fire did its proper office upon the men of Sodom, and that they were not in his day alive in its flames. Their case is an example of what God will do to all the wicked after the resurrection to damnation, when fire shall descend out of heaven upon them and the whole earth become a lake of fire. Revelation 20; 2 Peter 3; Malachi 4.

The testimony of Jeremiah which represents the punishment of Sodom as comparatively brief, must complete this evidence: “For the punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, that was overthrown as in a moment, and no hands stayed on her.” Lamentations 4:6.
 

BarneyFife

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4. The language of Jude concerning the Sodomites has therefore no relation to their condition in death, and cannot be made to furnish evidence that the wicked dead are now in a state of torment. There remains therefore, the case of a single individual — the rich man — out of which to deduce the doctrine that the wicked dead are now in the lake of fire. This is certainly a fact worthy of note.

5. The account of the rich man stands at the conclusion of a discourse made up of parables. Thus Luke 20, presents us with the parable of the lost sheep, the ten pieces of silver and the prodigal son. The sixteenth chapter is made up of two parables, the unjust steward, and the rich man and Lazarus. It is true that the account of the rich man and Lazarus is not called a parable by the sacred penman; but the fact is the same with respect to the two cases which precede this; and the three are introduced in the same manner: “A certain man had two sons;” “There was a certain rich man which had a steward;” “There was a certain rich man which was clothed in purple and fine linen.”

6. It is generally admitted that a parable cannot be made the foundation of any doctrine, or be used to disprove doctrines established by plain and literal testimony. But the doctrine of the present punishment of the wicked dead, rests upon a single parable, and that parable the case of a single individual.

7. The proper interpretation of any portion of the Sacred Record will show that it is in divine harmony with the general tenor and plain facts of the whole book.

8. Three of the dead are here introduced, Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man, and all represented as in hades. “In hell (Greek, hades) he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.” Hades is the place of all the dead, the righteous as well as the wicked. Thus at the resurrection of the just, they shout victory over death and hades from whose power they are then delivered. “O death where is thy sting? O grave (Greek, hades), where is thy victory?” 1 Corinthians 15:55. The wicked dead are in hades; for at the resurrection to damnation hades delivers them up. Revelation 20:13. The resurrection of Christ did not leave his soul in hades; i.e., he then came forth from the place of the dead. Hades therefore is the common receptacle of the dead. Those who are in hades are not alive but dead. “DEATH and HADES delivered up the DEAD which were in them.” Even the language of Abraham implies that all the party were then dead. To Dives he says, Thou in thy lifetime [now passed] receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things, but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.” Classing himself with dead Lazarus he adds: “Between us and you there is a great gulf fixed.” The rich man then begs that Lazarus may be sent to his brethren, declaring that if one went unto them from the dead they will repent. And Abraham denying his request said that they would not be persuaded “though one rose from the dead.” This scene transpires in hades, the place of the dead, and those who act in it are three dead persons.

9. Here is found a clew to the proper interpretation of this parable. “They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.” If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead.” This language directs the living to Moses and the prophets for instruction concerning man’s condition in hades. In their testimony will be found adequate warning to the living wicked, and facts of great importance bearing upon the proper interpretation of this peculiar passage.

10. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew, and the New Testament in Greek. Here an important fact is to be noticed. The Old Testament uses the word sheol to designate that place which in the New Testament is called hades. Thus the sixteenth Psalm, written in Hebrew says, “Thou wilt not leave my soul in sheol.” The New Testament quoting this text and expressing the words in Greek says, “Thou wilt not leave my soul in hades.” Acts 2:27. The Hebrew term sheol as used in the Old Testament is therefore the same in meaning with the Greek word hades as used in the New. In other words the hades of Christ and the apostles is the sheol of Moses and the prophets.

11. It is well here to observe that the Hebrew word sheol is used in the Old Testament sixty-five times. It is rendered grave thirty-one times. Genesis 37:35; 42:38; 44:29, 31; 1 Samuel 2:6; 1 Kings 2:6, 9; Job 7:9; 14:13; 17:13; 21:13; 24:19; Psalm 6:5; 30:3; 31:17; 49:14, 15; 87:3; 89:48; 141:7; Proverbs 1:12; 30:16; Ecclesiastes 9:10; Cant.viii,6; Isaiah 14:11; 38:10, 18; Hosea 13:14; Ezekiel 31:15. It is rendered pit three times as follows: Numbers 16:30, 33; Job 17:16. It is also rendered hell in thirty-one instances as follows: Deuteronomy 32:22; 1 Samuel 22:6; Job 11:8; 26:6; Psalm 9:17; 16:10; 18:5; 55:15; 86:13; 116:3; 139:8; Proverbs 5:5; 7:27; 9:18; 15:11, 24; 22:14; 27:20; Isaiah 5:14; 14:9, 15; 28:13, 18; 57:9; Ezekiel 31:16, 17; 32:21, 27; Amos 9:2; Jonah 2:2; Habakkuk 2:5. Hades, the New Testament term for the sheol of the Old Testament, is used eleven times, and in ten of these it is rendered hell. Matthew 11:23; 16:18; Luke 10:15; 16:23; Acts 2:27, 31; Revelation 1:18; 6:8; 20:13, 14. It is once rendered grave. 1 Corinthians 15:55.
 

BarneyFife

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12. Moses and the prophets were indeed divinely inspired on every point concerning which they wrote; but on the point respecting which we seek light, they have the special endorsement of our Lord. We may therefore confide in their teaching concerning hades or sheol, assured that the great facts revealed through them by the Spirit of God, will be found in divine harmony with the teaching of Christ and the apostles.

13. The texts quoted above, relating to hades or sheol, reveal to us many important facts. We learn that sheol is the common receptacle of the dead whether they are righteous or wicked. Thus Jacob expressed his faith in what should be his state in death when he said, “I will go down into sheol unto my son mourning.” Genesis 37:35; 42:38; 44:29, 31. Korah and his company went down into sheol. Numbers 16:30, 33. Joab went down into sheol. 1 Kings 2:6, 9. Job was to be hid in sheol and wait there till the resurrection. Job 14:13; 17:13. All the wicked go into sheol. Psalm 9:17; 31:17; 49:14. All mankind go there. Psalm 89:48; Ecclesiastes 9:10.

14. Sheol or hades receives the whole man at death. Jacob expected to go down with his gray hairs to sheol. Genesis 42:38. Korah, Dathan and Abiram went into sheol bodily. Numbers 16:30, 33. The soul of the Saviour left sheol at his resurrection. Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:27, 31. The Psalmist being restored from dangerous sickness testified that his soul was saved from going into sheol. Thus he says, “O Lord my God I cried unto thee, and thou hast healed me. O Lord thou hast brought up my soul from the grave [Heb. sheol], thou hast kept me alive that I should not go down to the pit.” Psalm 30:2, 3; See also 136:13; Proverbs 23:14. He also shows that all men must die, and that no one can deliver his soul from sheol. Psalm 89:48.

15. The sorrows of hell, three times mentioned by the Psalmist, are, as shown by the connection, the pangs which precede or lead to death. 1 Samuel 22:5-7; Psalm 18:4-6; 116:1-9. They are in each case experienced by the righteous. The cruelty of sheol is the remorseless power with which it swallows up all mankind. Cant.viii,6; Psalm 89:48.

16. Those who go down to sheol must remain there till their resurrection. At the coming of Christ all the righteous are delivered from sheol. All the living wicked are then “turned into sheol,” and for one thousand years sheol holds all wicked men in its dread embrace. Then death and sheol or hades deliver up the wicked dead, and the judgment is executed upon them in the lake of fire. Compare Job 7:9, 10; 14:12-14; 17:13; 19:25-27; Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Corinthians 15:51-55; Psalm 9:17; Revelation 20:11-15.

17. Sheol, the invisible place or state of the dead is IN THE EARTH BENEATH. Though it is rendered grave thirty-one times, it is not the word usually so rendered in the Old Testament; for it embraces in its meaning not only the locality of the dead, but also their state or condition. All the passages which speak of the location of sheol or hades, represent it as beneath. It is always in the bosom of the earth, sometimes it is in the nethermost parts of the earth. Numbers 16:30, 33; Psalm 141:7; Isaiah 5:14; Isaiah 14:9-20; Ezekiel 31:15-18; 32:18-32. Referring to the fire now burning in the heart of the earth which shall at the last day swallow up the earth in its fiery gulf, Moses represents the Almighty as saying: “For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest sheol, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundation of the mountains.” Deuteronomy 32:22. Jonah went down into sheol, when, in the belly of the whale, he descended into the depths of the mighty waters, where none but dead men had ever been. Jonah 1; 2. Korah and his company went into sheol alive; that is, the earth swallowed them up while yet alive. Numbers 16.

18. The righteous do not praise God in sheol. Thus David testifies: “In death there is no remembrance of thee; in sheol who shall give thee thanks?” Psalm 6:5. And Hezekiah when delivered from death in answer to prayer expresses the same great truth: “I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of sheol: I am deprived of the residue of my years...Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my SOUL delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. For sheol cannot praise thee, death cannot celebrate thee; they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth. The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day; the father to the children shall make known thy truth.” Isaiah 37:10-19; Psalm 115:17; 146:1-4.

19. The wicked in sheol are silent in death. Thus David prays: “Let the wicked be ashamed and let them be silent in sheol.” Psalm 31:17. See also 1 Samuel 2:9; Psalm 115:17, last clause.
20. Sheol is a place of silence, secrecy, sleep, rest, darkness, corruption and worms. “So man lieth down and riseth not; till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake nor be raised out of their sleep. Oh that thou wouldst hide me in sheol, that thou wouldst keep me secret till thy wrath be past, that thou wouldst appoint me a set time, and remember me. If a man die, shall he live again? All the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come. Thou shalt call and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.” Job 14:12-15. “If I wait sheol is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness. I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother and my sister. And where is now my hope? As for my hope who shall see it? They shall go down to the bars of sheol, when our rest together is in the dust.” Job 17:13-16; 4:11-19; Psalm 88:10-12.

21. There is no knowledge in sheol. Thus writes the wise man, the Spirit of inspiration bearing testimony through him: “Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might: for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in sheol whither thou goest.” Ecclesiastes 9:4-6, 10.
 

BarneyFife

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23. Pharaoh and his army slaughtered in battle with the king of Babylon, are set forth in this same manner. The slain upon the field of battle being buried indiscriminately, and friend and foe cast down together into pits, into the nether parts of the earth,” into sheol, “the strong among the mighty speak to him out of the midst of sheol.” And this sheol in the nether parts of the earth full of the dead, is contrasted with “the land of the living.” These slaughtered soldiers went down to sheol with their weapons of war, and their swords they “laid under their heads.” Pharaoh, lying among them, and seeing the multitude of his enemies that were slain, is “comforted” at the sight. See this remarkable prophecy, Ezekiel 32:17-32; 31:15-18.

24. Perhaps the case of Rachel is even more remarkable than these. Long ages after her decease and entrance into sheol, a dreadful slaughter of her posterity takes place. Upon this, Rachel breaks forth into lamentation and bitter weeping, and refuses to be comforted, because her children are not. Then the Lord says to her, “Refrain thy voice from weeping and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded saith the Lord.” Jeremiah 31:15-17; Matthew 2:17, 18; Genesis 35:18-20.

25. That Rachel did literally weep and shed bitter tears at the murder of her children nearly 2000 years after her entrance into sheol, no one will assert. Nor will it be maintained that the slaughtered Egyptians and Chaldeans lying in sheol with their swords under their heads, were able to converse together in the nether parts of the earth; and that one was literally “comforted” or the other literally “ashamed.” Equally difficult is it to believe that the kings who had been overthrown by the king of Babylon were literally seated on thrones in sheol deep in the earth, and that when he was cast down to sheol they arose from their thrones and mocked him, declaring that he was now become weak as they. Please compare the following texts on the king of Babylon. Jeremiah 51:39, 57; Daniel 5:1-4, 30; Isaiah 14:4-30.

26. Taking our leave of “Moses and the prophets,” whose testimony on this subject has the direct endorsement of our Lord, let us now return to the case of Dives and Lazarus. Luke 16:19-31. Lazarus lived in the deepest poverty; too helpless to walk, or even to stand, he was laid at the rich man’s gate; he had no other food than the crumbs, perhaps grudgingly bestowed from the table of the rich man; and no other nurses than the dogs which licked his sores. In process of time, death comes to his relief; but his burial is not mentioned, though that of the rich man, who died soon after, is distinctly named. It is likely that the dead beggar covered with sores, was disposed of with as little trouble as possible; in the sight of man, he had the burial of a dog; but this poor man, forsaken of all earthly friends, and apparently unnoticed of Heaven, had, unseen to mortal eye, such a burial as the wealth of the whole world could not command. The angels of God took part as his bearers to that quiet resting place from which, by and by, when hades gives up the righteous dead, at the sound of the last trumpet, they shall take him up through the air, to meet his triumphant Redeemer. Till that time, we leave him asleep in Jesus, resting in hope, with Abraham, the father of the faithful, and all the ancient worthies who have not yet received the promises. Hebrews 11:8-16, 39, 40.

27. The rich man lived in luxury, faring sumptuously every day. To the eye of all beholders his lot was to be envied, and that of the beggar to be despised. But he dies also, and of him it is recorded that he was buried. All that wealth could purchase, all that pride could exhibit of earthly pomp and grandeur were no doubt displayed at his funeral. But there were, no doubt, no angels of God to participate in it. He had lived for himself, neglecting the great preparation for the future. He goes down to hades a lost man, waiting the resurrection to damnation. As the Douay Bible reads, “he was buried in hell,” i.e., in hades or sheol. Here he lifted up his eyes being in torment, and seeth Abraham afar off and Lazarus in his bosom. Then as though calling to mind the littleness of the favors he had bestowed on Lazarus, he asks a favor at the hands of the despised beggar — the smallest indeed that he could ask — that Lazarus should dip the tip of his finger in water and cool his tongue. This being denied, he asks that Lazarus may be sent to warn his brethren. And this also was refused because they had Moses and the prophets whose testimony was sufficient.

28. This scene transpires in hades or sheol, which, as we have seen, is in the nether parts of the earth. The place is one of darkness and silence, where there is neither wisdom nor knowledge. It is the place of the dead, and those who are therein are called “the congregation of the dead.” Proverbs 21:16. In the utter darkness of hades, how can men see each other? “In the land of forgetfulness,” how can they remember the events of their past lives? In a place where there is no knowledge, how could Dives know Abraham whom he had never seen? Where there is no work nor device, how could he devise a plan to warn his wicked brethren? And in hades where there is no wisdom, how could Abraham give such wise answers? In hades where the wicked are silent in death, how could Dives converse? As the righteous cannot praise God in hades, and do not even remember his name, how does it happen that they can so well understand and converse on every thing else?
 

BarneyFife

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29. We answer these questions precisely as we do those which arise from the testimony of “Moses and the prophets,” to which we are in this parable referred. When Rachel long dead, is represented as shedding tears and lamenting the murder of her children; when the mighty dead converse with Pharaoh in hades, and he is “comforted” with what he sees in the nether parts of the earth; and when the king of Babylon is mocked by dead kings who rise up from their thrones in hades and taunt him with his overthrow; when we read all this of that place where all is darkness, silence, secrecy and death, — a place within the earth itself, and when we consider that this parable relates to this very place, and cites us to these very testimonies for information on the subject, it becomes evident that one common answer pertains to all these questions.

30. The dead are personified and made to speak and act in reference to the facts of their respective cases as though they were alive. Why should not the Spirit of God do this when it has seen fit to personify every kind of inanimate thing? Thus the blood of Abel cried to God. Genesis 4. The stone by the sanctuary heard all the words of Israel. Joshua 24. The trees held an election and made speeches. Judges 9. The thistle proposes a matrimonial alliance with the cedar. 2 Kings 14; 2 Chronicles 25. All the trees sing out at the presence of God. 1 Chronicles 16. The stone cries out of the wall, and the beam answers it. Habakkuk 2. The hire of the laborers kept back by fraud, cries to God. James v. Dead Abel yet speaketh. Heb.xi. The souls under the altar slain for their testimony and who do not live till the first resurrection, cry to God for vengeance, Revelation 6; 20. And finally death and hades are both personified, — the one riding a pale horse, the other following, and both cutting down mankind. And this personification is still further carried out, when both, as though living enemies, are at last cast into the fire of gehenna. Revelation 6; Revelation 20; 1 Corinthians 15; Hosea 13:14.

31. The apostle Paul has given us the key to all this, when he says of God, that he “quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not, as though they were.” Romans 4:17. And our Lord, in that remarkable discussion with the Sadducees, in which he proved the resurrection of the dead by the fact that God spoke of dead Abraham as though he were alive, gives us this same key thus: “For all live unto him.” Luke 20:38. Abraham though dead, is spoken of as alive, because in the purpose of God he is to live again.

32. By this parable our Lord illustrates several great truths. 1. The folly and vanity of riches. 2. The worth of true piety, though attended by the deepest poverty. 3. The importance of that great lesson inculcated in the previous parable, to make friends of the mammon of unrighteousness. Luke 16:9; 1 Timothy 6:17-19. The rich man had neglected this, wasting all on himself, though wretched, suffering Lazarus lay at his gate. The folly of this criminal neglect is shown in that part of this parable in which the rich man in his distress, as if remembering the past, is represented as asking of Lazarus the water that could be brought on the tip of his finger, and even this is denied. 4. The certainty of future recompense, and the great contrast that it will make with the present state of things. 5. The sufficiency of the Scriptures to instruct and warn mankind. 6. But to make this text teach that the righteous dead are now recompensed, would be to array a parable against our Lord’s plain statement that the recompense of the righteous is at the resurrection of the just. Luke 14:14. 7. Or to make the passage teach that the wicked dead are now in the lake of fire, is to make one of the Saviour’s parables conflict in its teaching with his own grand description of the final judgment, in which the wicked enter the everlasting fire at the dreadful mandate, “Depart from me ye cursed.” Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:11-15.

33. Lazarus died a beggar. But he rests in hope, an heir to the inheritance promised Abraham. Eternal life and endless felicity are his, and by personification it is said that he is “comforted.” Dives lives in the greatest splendor, and dies an impenitent man. The lake of fire is to be his portion. By personification he is represented as in it already. This is in accordance with the teaching of Paul, when he says of God that he calleth things that be not, as though they were. That is, God speaks of things that exist only in his purpose just as though they had a present existence; because they shall surely exist; even as he called Abraham the father of many nations, when as yet he had no son. Gen.xvii; Romans 4:16, 17. This is the more clearly seen when we consider that to Lazarus in the silence of hades there will not be a moment between his death, in the grounds of the rich man, and his resurrection to eternal life. And not a moment to the rich man between the closing of his eyes in death, and his opening them in the resurrection to damnation.

34. That we have done right in hearing the testimony of “Moses and the prophets” on this subject we have the authority of the parable itself. And we have this further evidence of the truth of this exposition that without doing violence to a single text we have a divine harmony on the subject of the dead in hades, in all that is said by Moses and the prophets, and by Christ and the apostles.
 

BarneyFife

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Christian
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United States
That those who conversed together are not disembodied spirits, but personified dead men, is further proved by the following facts: 1. Not one word is said of the spirit of any person named. 2. This conversation takes place in hades which the sacred writers affirm to be in the depths of the earth. 3. The persons named are men that had lived, the one clothed in purple, the other covered with sores, and both were then dead. But these dead men have bodily organs, as eyes, fingers, tongues, etc. 4. But the truth on this point is sealed by the fact that Lazarus could only return to warn the rich man’s brethren by being raised from the dead. “Neither will they be persuaded though one rose from the dead.” Greek, ean tis ek nekron anaste.

It was not whether the spirit of Lazarus should descend from the third Heaven, but whether Lazarus himself should be raised from among the dead ones. This shows that the conversation did not relate to the coming back of a disembodied spirit; and in fact that they were not disembodied spirits that here conversed. The parable of Dives and Lazarus, does not therefore teach the present punishment of the wicked dead. And as there is nothing else on which to rest the doctrine, it must be given up as having no foundation in the Bible. The testimony shows that the wicked dead are asleep in sheol where they await the resurrection to damnation. The following texts show that the resurrection and judgment of the wicked take place before they are punished; a doctrine in the highest degree reasonable and sustained by many plain testimonies.

1. “The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to RESERVE the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.” 2 Peter 2:9. The day of judgment must arrive before the retribution of the ungodly.

2. “The heavens and the earth which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.” 2 Peter 3:7. The perdition of ungodly men comes at the judgment.

3. “The wicked is RESERVED unto the day of destruction they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.” Job 21:30. The next scripture will explain this.

4. “Marvel not at this; for the hour is coming in the which all that are in their graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation.” John 5:28, 29.

5. “The wicked dead are raised and judged, then cast into the lake of fire.” Revelation 20:11-15.

6. “Vengeance is taken upon all the ungodly together, AFTER the second advent.” Jude 14, 15.

7. The wicked are cast into the furnace of fire at the end, and not before. Matthew 13:30, 39-43, 49, 50.

8. The burning day is the time when the wicked meet their fate. Malachi 4; Psalm 21:9.

9. The wrath of God waits till the day of wrath. Romans 2:5-9.

10. Tribulation to the ungodly comes after the advent. 2 Thessalonians 1.

11. The wicked dead are not punished till after the seventh trumpet. Revelation 11:15, 18.

12. The judge says, “Depart from me ye cursed,” and then, for the first time, the ungodly enter the furnace of fire.