"How can an entity that ceases to exist know what the state of being "peaceful" is? If something no longer exists it is gone never to live again and never to know what "peacefulness" is." - RND
-- "No longer exists".....sounds pretty "peaceful" doesn't it?
Maybe to some. The picture painted of the pain endured when the wicked find the could have had heaven I think is torture enough. But to understand the notion of being at "peace" one would have to be able to consciously understand they are at "peace." This is a state that is impossible for some thing that no longer exists.
"Correct. The eternal damnation is "self imposed" and not God imposed." - RND
-- And it is 'self-imposed' only because God paid the price through his torture, death, and resurrection.
He did all the legwork. All we have to do is accept him as Savior to avoid eternal damnation.
Yes this is free choice and God allows those that choose not to choose Him to do so without the threat of torture or humiliation.
"So if God is love what does eternal torturing accomplish for say a short life of 70 or 80 years of physical life. In other words the punishing seems to be overkill and I don't believe love involves overkill. Frankly it sounds sadistic." - RND
-- Well, at least you got the "God is love" part right. You missed completely that He himself suffered sadistic torture, humiliation, and a brutal death and later rose again just so that we would NOT have to experience the toruture that you state would be sadistic.
Umm, I didn't miss this fact, I readily accept it. But now we get to the notion as to whether the punishment is intrinsic or imposed. Like most Christians you think the punishment of God is imposed whereas I think it is intrinsic.
Here's an example: If the Surgeon General's warning on a pack of cigarettes said, "I you smoke I'll hunt you down and kill you" then the punishment would be imposed. But God doesn't do that. He says if you do "A" the results will be death.
He paid the price, but if we don't accept him, the result is our fault, not his. The brutality of that is our fault, not his.
Exactly but is the brutality intrisic or imposed?
I would also point out that your opinion that judgement would be sadist doesn't void what scripture says in any way.
Oh, never said it did! You just have a different picture of what "judgment" is.
"And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where "'their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched.' - Mark 9:47-48
-- That whole "does not die, and the fire is not quenched" thing sure sounds like someone is wrong about burning to a crisp into nothingness. Just an observation...
Even if we should agree that unquenched means endlessly burning, we would not find it necessary to accept the doctrine that at death an immortal soul is freed from man and lives apart from the body. These texts do not speak of disembodied souls, or spirits, burning. The Bible paints a picture of literal, wicked men at the judgment day being “cast into the lake of fire.” (See Revelation 20.)
Christ speaks of the “whole body” being “cast into hell.” (Matthew 5:29-30.) If it be replied that the body would be destroyed by the flames, and therefore only the spirit would be left, we ask for the Bible proof that spirits, or souls, are impervious to fire. Christ declared we should “fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.” Matthew 10:28. If “destroy” means consume as regards the “body”, we demand very clear proof if we are expected to believe that “destroy” means to leave unconsumed as regards the “soul.” A failure to produce such proof really takes the whole point out of the objection based on Mark 9 and Isaiah 66.
In Mark 9:43-48 Christ quite evidently refers to the same judgment fires as those described in Isaiah 66:24, where we read: “They [the righteous] shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses [“dead bodies,” A.R.V.] of the men that have transgressed against me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched.” We are told in so many words that the agencies of “work” and “fire” are working, not upon disembodied spirits, but upon bodies, dead bodies.
The word “hell” used in Mark 9:43-48 is from the Greek word Gehenna. This term, as we have learned, is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word Hinnom, the name of a valley near Jerusalem, “used as a place to cast carcasses of animals and malefactors, which were consumed by fire constantly kept up.” (See Liddell and Scott’s Greek Lexicon.)
Christ here uses this valley of Hinnom to teach His hearers the fate that awaits the wicked. Certainly the Jews who heard His words could not possibly have obtained any idea of wicked, disembodied souls endlessly suffering. They saw in Hinnom dead bodies being devoured by flames, or if the flames did not reach them, then by worms, those ever-present agents of destruction and disintegration. The fact that the fires of Gehenna were ever kept burning, were “not quenched,” was the surest proof that whatever was cast into them would be entirely consumed. To declare that if a fire keeps ever burning, then whatever is cast into it keeps ever living, is to go contrary both to the evidence of our senses and to the testimony of Scripture.
The question may now be asked: If whatever is cast into this fire is completely consumed, why will the fire always be kept burning? The answer is, it will not. A city-wide conflagration once enveloped Chicago. If we should describe that fire by saying that the flames could not be quenched, would you conclude that Chicago was still burning? No, you would simply understand that the fire raged until it had devoured everything within reach. Common knowledge makes unnecessary the additional statement that the fire itself then died down.
It is this natural sense of the word “quench” that we find used in the Bible. The Lord through Jeremiah declared to the ancient Jews, “If you will not hearken unto me, … then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof [of Jerusalem], and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.” Jeremiah 17:27. (In the Septuagint the very same Greek root is here used for “quenched” as in Mark 9.) In 2 Chronicles 36:19-21 we read of the literal fulfillment of this prophecy when the Babylonians put the torch to the city. Is that fire still burning? Are those Jewish “palaces” ever consuming, but never quite consumed? How preposterous, you say. Then why should anyone wish to take Christ’s statement in Mark 9 and force from it the conclusion that the judgment fire will never end; and then build upon this conclusion that the wicked will ever be consuming, but never quite consumed; and then finally rear upon this the conclusion that therefore the wicked have immortal souls?
Each and every one of these conclusions is unwarranted by logic and contrary to Scripture. The Bible nowhere says that souls are immortal, but declares that “the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” Ezekiel 18:4. The Bible nowhere says that the wicked will ever be consuming; instead it declares that they will become “ashes.” Malachi 4:3. The Bible does not say that the judgment fires will burn endlessly, for we read that these fires are due to God’s setting ablaze this wicked earth, and that following this conflagration He creates “a new earth.” (See 2 Peter 3:7-13 and Revelation 20 and 21.) There must therefore be an end to the fire, else this earth could not be re-created. In other words, the very promise of God to give us a new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness is contingent upon there being an end to the judgment fires.
http://www.helltruth.com/q-a/their-worm-dieth-not.aspx
"And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." - Matt 13:42
-- Although according to you that "wailing and gnashing of teeth" will only last 2-3 seconds...
Depends on who is doing the wailing and gnashing of teeth.
"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched." - Mark 9:43-48
-- So the fire will never be quenched...even after - according to you - the devil and his followers and all sinner are burned to a crisp. Tell me why then it would be left to burn.
See above.
"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." - Luke 16:24
-- So according to scripture, the God who you say would never do this because that would be sadistic, is going to be sadistic to let this person burn in torment until the final judgement and THEN burn him to a crisp. Hmmmm....
Luke 16:19-31 is a parable and not a literal description of "hell" and in fact verses 14-18 help lead the way to this understanding. Seems the Pharisees had learned Greek paganism and had incorporated it in the belief system they had not the one they had from God in His word. That's why Jesus called them adulterers indirectly because they were two-timing God!
" And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night..." - Rev. 14:11
-- But according to you, "no rest day nor night" lasts only 2-3 seconds.
According to you then Jesus is watching the torture forever with the holy angels!
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and
he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beat and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." - Rev 20:10
-- This is where someone starts in with "Well, in the ancient Greek..." or "When you look at it in the Hebrew..." Experience on this site has shown that to be a last resort and in the majority of cases proven incorrect.
Well since you have your mind made up and closed to the truth but seriously look at the verse. The devil, beast and false prophet are tormented, not the wicked.
"Then they shall go forth and look on the corpses of the men who have transgressed against Me. For their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched; and they shall be an abhorrence to all mankind." - Isaiah 66:24
-- Pretty self-explanatory
See above.
