Is The Soul Immortal?

"Bigape...you're correct...I believe Universalist are wrong but,
I do believe God will eventually save mankind." - logabe

-- No offense, but that is like saying, "I am not an Atheist, but I am of the opinion that God doesn't exist."





Paul says again in Rom.
10:9,
"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus
as Lord, and believe in your heart that God
raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved."

-- You do realize that this must happen BEFORE you die.....don't you?
No? See the following scripture...

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" - Heb. 9:27

-- But you seem to think either A.) A person can still seek forgiveness for their worldly sins even after they die, or B.) The 'judgement' will eventually not result in actual punishment. I don't think so






I would also point out:

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come." -- Matt. 12:32

-- But for you to be correct, God won't forgive the sin....but He will still deliver the person. Again, I don't think so.






"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matt 7:21

-- This scripture states flat out that not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven. But according to you this scripture is...what? wrong? misinterpreted? to be ignored? Please be specific.

Foreigner said:

"Bigape...you're correct...I believe Universalist are wrong but,
I do believe God will eventually save mankind." - logabe

-- No offense, but that is like saying, "I am not an Atheist, but I am of the opinion that God doesn't exist."





Paul says again in Rom.
10:9,
"that if you confess with your mouth Jesus
as Lord, and believe in your heart that God
raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved."

-- You do realize that this must happen BEFORE you die.....don't you?
No? See the following scripture...

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" - Heb. 9:27

-- But you seem to think either A.) A person can still seek forgiveness for their worldly sins even after they die, or B.) The 'judgement' will eventually not result in actual punishment. I don't think so






I would also point out:

"And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come." -- Matt. 12:32

-- But for you to be correct, God won't forgive the sin....but He will still deliver the person. Again, I don't think so.






"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matt 7:21

-- This scripture states flat out that not everyone will enter the kingdom of heaven.

But according to you this scripture is...what? wrong? misinterpreted? to be ignored?

Click to expand...

Please be specific.

Click to expand...

Foreigner...it's a matter of rightly dividing the "word of truth" and understanding
everyone will not be saved in this Age, But eventally, the unsaved will be raised
to be judged. Man's judgement and God's judgement is totally different. The flesh
"man" judges out of his carnal mind while God uses the Mind of Christ.

Jesus said that the wicked would be cast into "outer darkness" (Matt. 8:12). This
is the part of the earth that is outside the new Jerusalem, which is the kingdom
of Light. And so this "outer darkness" is comparable to the spiritual darkness in
the world today (Matt. 4:16).

There are many "nations" living outside the new Jerusalem (Rev. 21:24-27) who
will begin to walk in the light (that is, follow its laws in obedience to its King).
These "nations" are the unsaved peoples of the earth from all past ages. They
are not allowed to LIVE in the city, for this is reserved only for the citizens of the
Kingdom, who have been given bodies of "spiritual flesh." Yet there will be
people of these other nations who WILL have access to the city, for we read
in Rev. 21:26:

26 And they [the nations] shall bring the glory and the honor of the
nations into it [the new Jerusalem];

John also says in chapter 22:

14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may
have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates
into the city.

The citizens are already IN the city. The implication here is that the rest
of the people-those in the "outer darkness," or "the lake of fire"-may "enter"
the city from the outside, if they qualify.

When the people of these nations that are outside the new Jerusalem
see the blessings of God poured out upon others, they will want to learn
and obey the divine law. They will learn righteousness. And at the end
of that final Age, all of creation will be restored to God. All authority and
powers and kingdoms will be in obedience to Him, for He will put all
enemies under His feet. Only then will that last enemy (death) be
destroyed. Jesus will present the full Kingdom, all of creation, to His
Father, and God will be all in all.

Logabe

"There are many "nations" living outside the new Jerusalem (Rev. 21:24-27) who
will begin to walk in the light (that is, follow its laws in obedience to its King)." - logabe

-- Logabe, that scripture does NOT say that there will be many nations living outside the New Jerusalem.
It doesn't even imply it.



"Jesus said that the wicked would be cast into "outer darkness" (Matt. 8:12). This
is the part of the earth that is outside the new Jerusalem, which is the kingdom
of Light. And so this "outer darkness" is comparable to the spiritual darkness in
the world today (Matt. 4:16). - logabe

-- Logabe you are wrong on what both of these scriptures mean. I do not know who you have been listening to, but you are in for quite a surprise.



When the people of these nations that are outside the new Jerusalem
see the blessings of God poured out upon others, they will want to learn
and obey the divine law. They will learn righteousness. And at the end
of that final Age, all of creation will be restored to God. - logabe

-- Again, I do not know who is influencing you, but you are being led astray
You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. There is NOTHING scriptural to support what you are claiming. Nothing.


Please note actual scripture that refutes what you say:

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come." -- Matt. 12:32

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" - Heb. 9:27

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matt 7:21

-- And as far as the last verse goes, please don't even attempt to say they will be able to begin to "doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" after he dies. Hebrews 9:27 already shows that to be a lie.

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." - Matt: 25:41

-- And please spare me any the silliness about them eventually being yanked out of the eternal fire to be judged THEN given the option to follow Jesus and spend eternity with him in Heaven. There is nothing - No Thing - scripturally that supports that idea.

First we have the people here claiming that those who do not accept Jesus will be burned to a crisp in the Lake of Fire and spend eternity as nothing, then there are guys like you.

You know, sometimes.........juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust sometimes, scripture is accurate just as it is written.

Foreigner said:

"There are many "nations" living outside the new Jerusalem (Rev. 21:24-27) who
will begin to walk in the light (that is, follow its laws in obedience to its King)." - logabe

-- Logabe, that scripture does NOT say that there will be many nations living outside the New Jerusalem.
It doesn't even imply it.



"Jesus said that the wicked would be cast into "outer darkness" (Matt. 8:12). This
is the part of the earth that is outside the new Jerusalem, which is the kingdom
of Light. And so this "outer darkness" is comparable to the spiritual darkness in
the world today (Matt. 4:16). - logabe

-- Logabe you are wrong on what both of these scriptures mean. I do not know who you have been listening to, but you are in for quite a surprise.



When the people of these nations that are outside the new Jerusalem
see the blessings of God poured out upon others, they will want to learn
and obey the divine law. They will learn righteousness. And at the end
of that final Age, all of creation will be restored to God. - logabe

-- Again, I do not know who is influencing you, but you are being led astray
You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. There is NOTHING scriptural to support what you are claiming. Nothing.


Please note actual scripture that refutes what you say:

And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come." -- Matt. 12:32

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" - Heb. 9:27

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matt 7:21

-- And as far as the last verse goes, please don't even attempt to say they will be able to begin to "doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven" after he dies.

Hebrews 9:27 already shows that to be a lie.

Click to expand...

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." - Matt: 25:41

-- And please spare me any the silliness about them eventually being yanked out of the eternal fire to be judged THEN given the option to follow Jesus and spend eternity with him in Heaven. There is nothing - No Thing - scripturally that supports that idea.

First we have the people here claiming that those who do not accept Jesus will be burned to a crisp in the Lake of Fire and spend eternity as nothing, then there are guys like you.

You know, sometimes.........juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust sometimes, scripture is accurate just as it is written.

Click to expand...

Foreigner...I use to believe just what you are saying about these same
scriptures until God began to give me ears to hear what the SPIRIT was
saying and not what I assumed God was saying because I was taught it
by a man. So let's talk about Judgment a little bit.

The primary reason why people have not understood the judgment of
God is that they have assumed that the fire of God's judgment is a torture
pit. They have forgotten that the law itself is the fire (Deut. 33:2), and the
law never demands torture as payment for any sin. In assuming the “fire”
to be literal, they cannot conceive of any believer being subjected to such
fire. And so they cannot possibly understand how anyone can be saved
through the fire, as Paul says. Such a statement simply does not fit with
their preconceived idea of the nature of the fiery judgment.

Further, they take the statement in Heb. 9:27, “it is appointed for men to
die once, and after this comes judgment,” and force it to teach that there
can be no salvation after a person has died. Such a view presupposes
that the judgment is a final condition, rather than a means to an end. It
presumes that the judgment means endless torture, rather than an
eonian correction whose end is life.

These misunderstandings have caused theological havoc in the Church
for many centuries. It is time to adjust our thinking in order to put on the
mind of Christ. The mind of Christ does not dispose of all judgment, nor
does it set aside the law by which this judgment is imposed. But the
Cross did bring in a New Covenant, in which our salvation was no longer
based upon man's will but upon God's will (John 1:13).

The New Covenant established at the Cross by His blood made it
possible for God to save all mankind, for it put the whole plan under
God's responsibility. Man's will could not do the job, as demanded by
the Old Covenant, for no man had the will power to be perfect in all his
thoughts and deeds.

God's will, however, is strong and powerful enough to do the job. Though
He does not choose to reveal Himself to all men in their life time, He
certainly will reveal Himself to all men at the day of judgment. All will
confess Him at that day, and then all will serve Him according to the
judgment of the law.

The law demands restitution payment, but when such payment is not
possible, it demands that the sinner be put under authority as a servant
to one who pays his debt (his redeemer). He is to serve his redeemer
either until the debt is paid, or until the Year of Jubilee when all debt
is cancelled purely by grace.

During that interim, the sinner is made a bondservant of Jesus Christ,
even as Paul claimed to be in Rom. 1:1—and we ourselves are as well,
if we are obedient to our great Redeemer. The primary difference is that
as believers, we obtain immortality during the Age to come, whereas
most of the world will have to wait until the Creation Jubilee, for they
too must learn obedience, even as we do today. Isa. 26:9,

9 For when the earth experiences Thy judgments, the inhabitants
of the world will learn righteousness.

The ultimate purpose of the law's judgments is to correct and to teach
righteousness, not to destroy forever or to torture.

God says in Ezekiel 34:11,

11 For thus says the Lord God, “Behold, I Myself will search
for My sheep and seek them out...
16 I will seek the lost [abad], bring back the scattered, bind
up the broken, and strengthen the sick...”

In other words, just because Israel was “lost” did not mean they could
no longer be found. Jesus came to seek and find that which was lost,
or seemingly destroyed (Matt. 18:11). Being “lost” is not a permanent
condition, even if the lost one perishes. The resurrection of the dead is
designed to rescue people from death and to show that death and
separation from God is not a permanent condition.

And so even though God's enemies will be “destroyed,” they will be
raised for judgment at the Great White Throne and then cast into the
lake of “fire” in order to learn righteousness, as Isaiah tells us. Ultimately,
God destroys His enemies by making them His friends—people who are
in agreement with Him (Rev. 5:11-14).

Romans 8:19-22,

19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for
the revealing [“manifestation, or unveiling”] of the sons of
God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own
will, but because of Him who subjected it in hope
21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery
to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of
God.

Foreigner...do you know what the whole creation is? It's everybody.
Get excited and realize that God has done something we couldn't do.

Thus, whether God's enemies are pictured in the story of David
himself, or looks back to Jacob, or looks ahead to Christ, or to us
in the present time, the biblical solution is the manifestation of the
sons of God. This is how God deals with His enemies. He has
chosen the seed of Abraham to be a blessing to all families of the
earth (Gen. 12:4). He has chosen to bless His enemies, even as
He instructed us in Luke 6:27, 28,

27 But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to
those who hate you,
28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat
you.

This is how Jesus intends for us to treat our enemies. This manifests
His heart and His intention for all of His enemies on the earth. It is
His purpose to bless all families of the earth—not destroy them.

Likewise, it shows all aspiring overcomers how God trains them as
“Jacobites” so that they may overcome the flesh and qualify to rule
as “Israelites.” Like Jesus, a true Israelite learns obedience by the
things that he suffers. Love is his motive and source of divine
strength.

Logabe

"Foreigner...I use to believe just what you are saying about these same
scriptures until God began to give me ears to hear what the SPIRIT was
saying and not what I assumed God was saying because I was taught it
by a man. So let's talk about Judgment a little bit." - logabe

-- I am seeing a commen trend on this board. Those that cannot defend their position stating they have an advanced "insight" into the scripture. One that far outweighs those lifelong Christ-loving Spirit-filled Christians who have spend decades studying the word. (And no, I don't count myself among them.)


"Further, they take the statement in Heb. 9:27, “it is appointed for men to
die once, and after this comes judgment,” and force it to teach that there
can be no salvation after a person has died. Such a view presupposes
that the judgment is a final condition, rather than a means to an end. It
presumes that the judgment means endless torture, rather than an
eonian correction whose end is life." - logabe

-- "And force it to teach that there can be no salvation after a person has died."
You have shown absolutely nothing - No Thing - that indicates it should be read any differently.
Why? Because it is meant just as it is written. Nothing more, nothing less.
Scripture trumps your unsupported opinion every day of the week, I'm afraid





"The primary reason why people have not understood the judgment of
God is that they have assumed that the fire of God's judgment is a torture
pit. They have forgotten that the law itself is the fire (Deut. 33:2)," - logabe

-- That scripture has nothing to do with what you are implying. One has only to read the scripture before it to know so. Reading the whole chapter proves it even further. You are corrupting God's word. Nothing more.




"The primary difference is that
as believers, we obtain immortality during the Age to come, whereas
most of the world will have to wait until the Creation Jubilee, for they
too must learn obedience, even as we do today. Isa. 26:9,

9 For when the earth experiences Thy judgments, the inhabitants
of the world will learn righteousness." - logabe

-- If you do not realize that Isaiah is speaking about this world and not the next, then you really are lost on this subject.
Did you not even read the following two verses?

"Though grace is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness; even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil and regard not the majesty of the LORD. O LORD, your hand is lifted high, but they do not see it. Let them see your zeal for your people and be put to shame; let the fire reserved for your enemies consume them." - Isa 26: 10-11

You have put yourself in a quandry here. If Isaiah 26:9 is speaking about the afterlife, then what is said in Isaiah 26:11 must be, as well.

If Isaiah 26:11 is speaking of this life, then Isaiah 26:9 must be, as well.

You...can...not...have...it...both...ways.



"In other words, just because Israel was “lost” did not mean they could
no longer be found. Jesus came to seek and find that which was lost,
or seemingly destroyed (Matt. 18:11). Being “lost” is not a permanent
condition, even if the lost one perishes." - logabe

-- Now you are simply moving into the heretical.
Matt 18:11 ('For the Son of Man came to save the lost.') is talking about in THIS world so that they WON'T HAVE TO face the punishment of the next.
Your opinion basically says that Jesus died on the cross for no reason whatsoever.




27 But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to
those who hate you,
28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat
you.
This is how Jesus intends for us to treat our enemies. This manifests
His heart and His intention for all of His enemies on the earth. It is
His purpose to bless all families of the earth—not destroy them." - logabe

-- Yes, ON EARTH. This is supposed to happen BEFORE Christ returns. Then it is too late.
Your opinions are not only misleading, they are dangerous.




And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come." -- Matt. 12:32

-- You chose to ignore this scripture.
You pretty much had to, though, didn't you?



Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matt 7:21

-- He didn't say "not enter the Kingdom of Heaven FOR NOW but later they will."
That is why you ignored this scripture, as well, isn't it?



“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." - Matt: 25:41

-- Another scripture you chose to ignore. Probably because this is after the judgement they are being put in the Lake of Fire and nowhere - No Where - does it say they are ever coming out.




Between ignoring these scriptures and perversing Hebrews 9:27 you have shown that, whereever you are getting your information, it is not supported by, nor does it stand up to the Word of God.

Foreigner said:

"Foreigner...I use to believe just what you are saying about these same
scriptures until God began to give me ears to hear what the SPIRIT was
saying and not what I assumed God was saying because I was taught it
by a man. So let's talk about Judgment a little bit." - logabe

-- I am seeing a commen trend on this board.

Those that cannot defend their position stating they have an advanced "insight" into the scripture.

Click to expand...

One that far outweighs those lifelong Christ-loving Spirit-filled Christians who have spend decades studying the word. (And no, I don't count myself among them.)


"Further, they take the statement in Heb. 9:27, “it is appointed for men to
die once, and after this comes judgment,” and force it to teach that there
can be no salvation after a person has died. Such a view presupposes
that the judgment is a final condition, rather than a means to an end. It
presumes that the judgment means endless torture, rather than an
eonian correction whose end is life." - logabe

-- "And force it to teach that there can be no salvation after a person has died."
You have shown absolutely nothing - No Thing - that indicates it should be read any differently.
Why? Because it is meant just as it is written. Nothing more, nothing less.
Scripture trumps your unsupported opinion every day of the week, I'm afraid





"The primary reason why people have not understood the judgment of
God is that they have assumed that the fire of God's judgment is a torture
pit. They have forgotten that the law itself is the fire (Deut. 33:2)," - logabe

-- That scripture has nothing to do with what you are implying. One has only to read the scripture before it to know so. Reading the whole chapter proves it even further. You are corrupting God's word. Nothing more.




"The primary difference is that
as believers, we obtain immortality during the Age to come, whereas
most of the world will have to wait until the Creation Jubilee, for they
too must learn obedience, even as we do today. Isa. 26:9,

9 For when the earth experiences Thy judgments, the inhabitants
of the world will learn righteousness." - logabe

-- If you do not realize that Isaiah is speaking about this world and not the next, then you really are lost on this subject.
Did you not even read the following two verses?

"Though grace is shown to the wicked, they do not learn righteousness; even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil and regard not the majesty of the LORD. O LORD, your hand is lifted high, but they do not see it. Let them see your zeal for your people and be put to shame; let the fire reserved for your enemies consume them." - Isa 26: 10-11

You have put yourself in a quandry here. If Isaiah 26:9 is speaking about the afterlife, then what is said in Isaiah 26:11 must be, as well.

If Isaiah 26:11 is speaking of this life, then Isaiah 26:9 must be, as well.

You...can...not...have...it...both...ways.



"In other words, just because Israel was “lost” did not mean they could
no longer be found. Jesus came to seek and find that which was lost,
or seemingly destroyed (Matt. 18:11). Being “lost” is not a permanent
condition, even if the lost one perishes." - logabe

-- Now you are simply moving into the heretical.
Matt 18:11 ('For the Son of Man came to save the lost.') is talking about in THIS world so that they WON'T HAVE TO face the punishment of the next.
Your opinion basically says that Jesus died on the cross for no reason whatsoever.




27 But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to
those who hate you,
28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat
you.
This is how Jesus intends for us to treat our enemies. This manifests
His heart and His intention for all of His enemies on the earth. It is
His purpose to bless all families of the earth—not destroy them." - logabe

-- Yes, ON EARTH. This is supposed to happen BEFORE Christ returns. Then it is too late.
Your opinions are not only misleading, they are dangerous.




And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come." -- Matt. 12:32

-- You chose to ignore this scripture.
You pretty much had to, though, didn't you?



Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matt 7:21

-- He didn't say "not enter the Kingdom of Heaven FOR NOW but later they will."
That is why you ignored this scripture, as well, isn't it?



“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." - Matt: 25:41

-- Another scripture you chose to ignore. Probably because this is after the judgement they are being put in the Lake of Fire and nowhere - No Where - does it say they are ever coming out.




Between ignoring these scriptures and perversing Hebrews 9:27 you have shown that, whereever you are getting your information, it is not supported by, nor does it stand up to the Word of God.

Click to expand...

Foreigner...let me try to defend my position and advanced "insight" from
the scriptures.

The "fiery law" (Deut. 33:2) that He gave on Mount Horeb reflected His
character. No man saw God Himself, but only fire, which was the visible
expression of Himself (Deut. 4:12, 15). The verbal expression of God is
also fire, for Jer. 23:29 says, "Is not My Word like as a fire?" And so the
judgments of God, proceeding out from the throne (symbol of law), is
expressed as a fire in Daniel 7:9-11 as it flows upon the people who are
seen rising from the dead for judgment. The Concordant Literal
Translation of Daniel 7:11 reads,

11 ". . . thousand thousands are irradiating Him, and ten thousand
ten thousands are rising before Him. Adjudication sits, and the
scrolls are opened."

In other words, the smaller group, already transfigured with the glory of
God in the first resurrection, are seen standing with Him. The larger
group is seen rising from the dead for judgment. It is an Old Testament
picture of the general resurrection at the Great White Throne
(Rev. 20:11-15). The main difference is that Daniel pictures the fire as
a river flowing upon the people from the throne, whereas John sees the
after-effects of the river, when it has formed a lake.

The main point to understand is that a throne is a symbol of law, by
which a monarch rules and judges, and in this case the throne is a fire
and flame. It is the "fiery law" of Deut. 33:2.

Jesus showed in Luke 12:47-49 that an offence carried more liability
if the person knew the law and violated it willfully. Such a person would
receive "many stripes." Verse 49 then defines such judgment of the law
as "fire," saying,

49 "I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were
already kindled."

Jesus was NOT saying, "Oh, how I wish that the eternal torture were
now here! I can't wait for it to begin!" No, the "fire" in this case is the
"few stripes" or "many stripes" as prescribed in Deut. 25. Jesus was
looking forward to the day when all the dead would be held
accountable for their offences against their victims of injustice,
because this will begin the final process of the Restoration of All
Things (Acts 3:21).

Foreigner...What about "Torment"?

We are so used to the idea of torture in hell that we automatically
picture "torment" to be physical torture while being burned eternally.
But Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words tells us
something different.

The verb basanizo is translated "to torment" in Matt. 8:6, where it is
used of sickness causing some pain. Vine's, under "Torment," says
the noun form is basanismos and "is used of Divine judgments in
Rev. 9:5; 14:11; 18:7, 10, 15."

A "tormentor," says Vines, is from the word basanistes, "one who
elicits information by torture, is used of jailers, Matt. 18:34." Dr.
Bullinger enlarges on this in his notes on Matt. 18:34, saying,
"tormentors: or jailers. Gr. basanistes. Occurs only here.
Imprisonment was called in Roman law-books cruciatus corporis."

In other words, a tormentor was a euphemism for a jailer, not because
they always tortured people, but because they were often required to
do so to elicit information. When a Roman judge ordered beatings, as
when Paul and Silas were beaten in Acts 16:22, these were carried
out in the prison overseen by the warden--that is, the "tormentor."

Thus also, Vine's tells us that tumpanizo is the Greek word for "torture."
It says that the word "primarily denotes to beat a drum, a kettle-drum. . .
hence, to torture by beating, to beat to death, Heb. 11:35." Our English
word tympanum is the ear drum. So this shows that the biblical word for
"torture" is actually a reference to a beating--precisely what Jesus was
talking about in Luke 12. The only difference is that man's law had no
restrictions on the number of stripes that could be meted out on the
offender. Biblical law limited it to 40 stripes.

So when men are cast into the "lake of fire" (judged by the divine law)
to be "tormented" (imprisoned) and "tortured" (beaten like a drum), we
cannot assume that God is judging according to Roman law, but rather
He judges by His own "fiery law." The "fire" of that law is defined
throughout the law of Moses as restitution, few or many stripes, and
other ways of meting out justice. It is certainly not limited to inflicting
pain. And most important, it is designed to give restitution to the victims
while correcting and restoring the sinners. Rev. 14:10 says,

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of
God,which is poured out without mixture into the cup
of His indignation: and he shall be tormented with fire
and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and
in the presence of the LAMB:

We have to study to understand these types of words so we can have
the proper meaning. Thus, being able to rightly divide the word of truth
and bring God's wonderful plan to the proper climax.

Logabe

Logabe, I appreciate the efforts you put in...I am sorry to be the one to point out - again - that the scriptures you share do not negate the fact that once a person dies they can no longer influence where they spend eternity.

You seem to be trying to throw as much on the wall as possible, hoping that something will eventually stick.
It just is not happening. Please focus on your claim that eventually everyone will be with God.

I ask you again to please address these specific scriptures, which show that the point you are claiming is completely inaccurate.




“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." - Matt: 25:41

-- There is nothing - anywhere in the scriptures - that says this is a "for a period of time" event. To say otherwise is to say this scripture is incorrect. Neither you nor I are qualified to say that.





And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come." -- Matt. 12:32

-- Again, it says specifically "neither in this world, neither in the world to come." That does not leave any wiggle room. You have shown absolutely nothing that negates this. If you have something SPECIFIC that negates this specific scripture please provide it.





Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matt 7:21

-- It states flat out that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter into the Kingdom of heaven. It is quite explicit. You have not provided anything that shows this scripture to be incorrect. If you have something SPECIFIC that somehow negates this specific scripture please share it. Otherwise...

Foreigner said:

Logabe, I appreciate the efforts you put in...I am sorry to be the one to point out - again - that the scriptures you share do not negate the fact that once a person dies they can no longer influence where they spend eternity.

You seem to be trying to throw as much on the wall as possible, hoping that something will eventually stick.
It just is not happening. Please focus on your claim that eventually everyone will be with God.

I ask you again to please address these specific scriptures, which show that the point you are claiming is completely inaccurate.




“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." - Matt: 25:41

-- There is nothing - anywhere in the scriptures - that says this is a "for a period of time" event. To say otherwise is to say this scripture is incorrect. Neither you nor I are qualified to say that.





And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come." -- Matt. 12:32

-- Again, it says specifically "neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

That does not leave any wiggle room.

Click to expand...

You have shown absolutely nothing that negates this. If you have something SPECIFIC that negates this specific scripture please provide it.





Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matt 7:21

-- It states flat out that not everyone who says "Lord, Lord" will enter into the Kingdom of heaven. It is quite explicit. You have not provided anything that shows this scripture to be incorrect. If you have something SPECIFIC that somehow negates this specific scripture please share it. Otherwise...

Click to expand...

Foreigner...what you call room to wiggle out of...I call the Truth
of the matter. First we have take the time to understand what
Jesus is talking about.

The idea of blotting out people's names from the Book of Life
is first mentioned in Exodus 32:32, but it also appears in
Deuteronomy 29:20, Psalm 109:13, and Revelation 3:5.
The examples of Joram and Belshazzar shed light on Jesus'
comment about blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Matthew
12:22-32 reads, in part,

22 Then was brought unto Him one possessed with
a devil, blind, and dumb; and He healed him,
insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and
saw.
23 And all the people were amazed and said, Is not
this the son of David?
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This
fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the
prince of the devils.

Jesus' reply to this accusation is quite interesting.

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and
blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men; but the
blasphemy against the Holy Spirit shall not be
forgiven unto men.
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the
Son of man, it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever
speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be
forgiven him, neither in this world [age], neither in
the world [age] to come.

The Pharisees had attributed the works of Jesus to Beelzebub
("lord of the flies," the god of Ekron-2 Kings 1:2). This was, in
effect, bestowing the dedicated things of the Temple to Baalim,
and Jesus called it blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Like
Temple vessels, His works were dedicated to God. He said that
such sin would not be forgiven, either in this age (aion) or in the
age to come. That is, they would not find forgiveness in this
present age and would lose their inheritance in the First
Resurrection. Further, they would not be forgiven in the age to
come. Thus, they would not receive their inheritance in the
Second (general) Resurrection either. He must await the final
Creation Jubilee of which Paul spoke in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28.

The Pharisees were guilty of the same sin that had been attributed
to Joram many years earlier. The penalty was therefore identical.
The Pharisees who attributed the works of Jesus to Beelzebub
were blotted out from the Book of Life and were no longer
considered to be under God's covenant. While men may not have
realized this-and some still do not-it was a fact in the eyes of God.

Logabe

if the soul was not immortal then how could there be an afterlife that goes on forever. Also, if going to Hell means the soul dies then how come it experiences unimaginable torments. Does the soul have a soul?

Templar81 said:

if the soul was not immortal then how could there be an afterlife that goes on forever. Also, if going to Hell means the soul dies then how come it experiences unimaginable torments. Does the soul have a soul?

Click to expand...

Immortality is only about Salvation through Christ of the "first resurrection". God's Word defines the idea of immortality a bit differently than this world does.

There does exist a time of destruction of one's body (spiritual body) and soul at the "second death" (Matt.10:28; Luke 12:4-5). That destruction is what the "lake of fire" is about. The abode of 'hell' is a heavenly type prison, it is not the "lake of fire". We know that because Rev.20:14-15 reveals that hell will go into the lake of fire, along with death and the wicked. The word hell in the NT was translated differently in many passages. When it's the word 'gehenna' or 'geena, it's about the "lake of fire" event that will occur at the end of Christ's thousand years reign.

In Luke 16 about the "torments" the rich man experienced in hell, that word "torments" is basanos which means a 'touchstone'. A touchstone was a type of stone that was used to MEASURE the amount of gold within a piece of ore by rubbing it. The idea there is about great emotional shame, the rich man didn't measure up.

I really don't understand what people DON'T understand about this verse.

Gen 2:[sup]15[/sup] Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. [sup]16[/sup] And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; [sup]17[/sup] but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

He did not say torment you for eternity, He said you will die. To add insult to injury the concept that the soul is immortal first denys the Father and then further denys His Son.
If mans soul was immortal and all men would at some time come into salvation, be it in a humble state. IS NOTHING MORE THAN DENYING THE NEED FOR JESUS IN THE FIRST PLACE. He never had to come to over come death. If that were true, the bible would read very differently than it does today, it would be full of the virtues of being a good person to obtain a higher level of stature in presents of God, threw works, the efforts of your flesh. Instead of,

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, [sup]9[/sup] not of works, lest anyone should boast. [sup]10[/sup] For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

As you can see the bible teaches the opposite first you are saved then works are manifest, created in Christ Jesus for good works, that are acceptable to God, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them . Not the other way around. Thus the term bond servant. Bonded to Jesus threw the Spirit to do good works prepared by God beforehand.
If you want a works basted salvation you will be very comfortable in every other religion except the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Or perhaps one of the christian claiming religions that insist on a works basted salvation, or to stay in salvation.

Logabe, I have read and reread your post hoping there would be some sense in there. Sadly...

You have still shown nothing to negate these scriptures:


And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come." -- Matt. 12:32




Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." - Matt 7:21

The Hell you get for example in Dante's Divine comedy is ony a temporary place to punish evil does before the last judgement. THose who died before Jesus' time went there and when Jesus died he went down and took the virtuous there like Abraham, Moses, Solomon, David, Noah and Adam and Eve all up to Heaven.

Anyone who wasn't a kind of pre-Christian stayed there and will until the last judgement along with the evil and the unbeleivers that have died since Christ's death adn resurrection. They will be ressurected on the last day and then thrown into the lake of fire or maybe the realm they had been inhabitting will be thrown into the lake of fire. It does sound similar to Purgatory except that in Purgatory all the souls who enter know that they will get out and make it to Heaven eventually.

I don't know about spirit bodies but it sounds that the term "second death" is a figurative way of saying Dammed for all eternity, if a soul was dead then surely it wouldn't have any consiousness but in both the temporary Hell, Hades or Gehenna that veteran describes and the lake of fire described in Revelations the soul is tormented. So when we Christians talk about everlasting life with God we are talking about Heaven because that is what life is meant to be, that is the Christian definition of life, but it is figurative as Hell and the Lake of Fire do not actually destroy the soul because the soul continues to suffer. If the soul was mortal then it would die again from the torments. Think how long you would survive if you were thrown into a volvano. These souls have to endure that forever. So what I'm saying is if there is consiousness there must be a kind of life or perhaps one should call it anti-life since the soul does indeed endure.

I'm very surprised at this question I must say... Clearly the Bible says the soul is immortal and we go to Heaven if we follow the Word of Christ... Personally I don't think this should be a point of dispute nor should it be unclear.

That was my point as it stands to all reason that the soul is immortal, but should it live forever in bliss praising God or permenantly shut out from God and forced to endure everlasting torment.

Scripture is very clear.
The soul is immortal.
Whether it spends eternity in heaven praising God or eternity in hell in torment is based on the person's time here on earth.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" - Heb 9:27

Well said Foreigner! Thats sumbs things up i a nutshell.

Foreigner said:

Scripture is very clear.
The soul is immortal.
Whether it spends eternity in heaven praising God or eternity in hell in torment is based on the person's time here on earth.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" - Heb 9:27

Click to expand...

I agree that the soul is immortal. Our short life on earth is so precious because how we live our earthly life will God will determine whether we will spend eternity in Heaven or not.

Templar81 said:

That was my point as it stands to all reason that the soul is immortal, but should it live forever in bliss praising God or permenantly shut out from God and forced to endure everlasting torment.

Click to expand...

Foreigner said:

Scripture is very clear.
The soul is immortal.
Whether it spends eternity in heaven praising God or eternity in hell in torment is based on the person's time here on earth.

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" - Heb 9:27

Click to expand...

Templar81 said:

Well said Foreigner! Thats sumbs things up i a nutshell.

Click to expand...

Now I'm no genius but I'm nether a fool.
Looking at these three post in a row I would say that perhaps Templar81 and Foreigner may be one and the same poster.
Templar81 from the UK has a similar indicator in the nic Foreigner.

Templar81

• Advanced Member

• Group: Christians
• Posts: 173
• Joined: 14-April 10----------------------------same date joined as Foreigner
• LocationUK -----------------------------------Foreigner------UK

Foreigner

• Advanced Member

• Group: Christians
• Posts: 214
• Joined: 14-April 10-----------------------------same date joined as Templar

Oldest trick in the book on internet forums, supporting yourself with yourself, and in a Christian forum no less
I've seen some other member indicators but it's inconclusive, it's something I watch for.
After a while you start to realize that different members have a similar manor, I generally see this kind of thing on secular forums.
It's very common for the site owner operator to frequent topics as a ghost writer to protect his "unbiased " opinion.

Sorry t dissapoint you but I'm afraid we're not he same person, nor do we even know one another and we don't always agree.

I'm sure you could chekc with the admin or mods.

Pax Domini vobis cum