Where does the Bible say...

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WaterSong

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And the perpetual virginity of Mary
Lk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
(This verse imply’s a vow of perpetual virginity, She refuses even the exalted dignity of mother of God and mother of our savior if it means violating Her vow)
That isn't a verse referring to Mary's perpetual virginity. She knew not a man at that moment because she was a virgin betrothed to Joseph.
That is therefore the verse pertaining to Mary's conversation with the angel of God that told her she was highly favored by God to bring the Messiah into the world.
Mary was married to Joseph. Jesus had half brothers. Mary wasn't a perpetual virgin or else Jesus half brothers were bastards beget upon Mary by other than Joseph. Which would have caused her to be stoned to death, and only one brother would have arrived by that sinful method. None of which occurred of course.
 

Truman

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You're told God inspired men to compile the Bible.
Which translation then do you choose to read?
I mainly used NIV, as well as NKJV, NASB, Amp, KJV, NLT, and something back in the 70s called, "The Good News." For my online purposes I use biblehub.com and biblegateway.com.
I always allow the Lord to speak to me through them. None of them are 100%...He is.
 

theefaith

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That isn't a verse referring to Mary's perpetual virginity. She knew not a man at that moment because she was a virgin betrothed to Joseph.
That is therefore the verse pertaining to Mary's conversation with the angel of God that told her she was highly favored by God to bring the Messiah into the world.
Mary was married to Joseph. Jesus had half brothers. Mary wasn't a perpetual virgin or else Jesus half brothers were bastards beget upon Mary by other than Joseph. Which would have caused her to be stoned to death, and only one brother would have arrived by that sinful method. None of which occurred of course.

never says anything about a point in time
 

WaterSong

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I mainly used NIV, as well as NKJV, NASB, Amp, KJV, NLT, and something back in the 70s called, "The Good News." For my online purposes I use biblehub.com and biblegateway.com.
I always allow the Lord to speak to me through them. None of them are 100%...He is.
I employ the NET mostly. I have The Book, from long ago as well. It's NIV based.
 

theefaith

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WaterSong

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that verse has no time period in it
It does not say until next week month or year it is final perpetual
No, her virginity was never perpetual.
The Birth of Jesus
Matthew 1:24 When Joseph woke up, he did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and embraced Mary as his wife. 25 But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a Son. And he gave Him the name Jesus.
 

theefaith

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until means he absolutely did after that???
Matthew was making a point, that’s all it says nothing happened after that

Perpetual Virginity of Mary!

Mary conceived "without any detriment to her virginity, which remained inviolate even after his birth" (apostolic Council of the Lateran, 649)

Perpetual Virginity of Mary!

The Bible never says anyone is a biological child of Mary accept for Jesus Christ!

And the Bible says Her child is holy! And Her child is God!

Is 7:14 God provides a sign, a Virgin shall conceive and bear a son! (Singular, one son)

Ezekiel 44:2 “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.”

Song of Solomon 4:12 A garden inclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.

(Mary had become the dwelling place of the Almighty, like the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament. Mary was a vessel consecrated to God alone?)

Matt 1:20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
(The Bible says only the Holy Ghost conceived in Mary)

Matt 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
(A son singular) (does James save his people?)

Lk 1:28 Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with thee!

Blessed art thou amongst all women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
(The fruit of Her womb is blessed and holy)

Lk 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
(A son, singular)

Lk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
(This verse imply’s a vow of perpetual virginity, She refuses even the exalted dignity of mother of God and mother of our savior if it means violating Her vow of perpetual virginity)

Lk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.
(Her son is God)

Matt 1:25 He knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

2 Samuel 6:23 tells us: Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child UNTIL the day of her death.

Are we to assume that Michal had children after she died?

Until only states that they had no relation up to that point, the Bible does not say they had sex ever, before or after that point!

First born does not imply a second born. An only child is still first born!

No where does say Joseph a just and therefore chaste man has gone into Mary where the Holy Spirit has conceived, 2 Sam 12:24 And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the Lord loved him.

Brothers and sisters of Jesus?

They are not the children of Mary!

Is 7:14 a virgin shall conceive and bear a son!
(One son, singular)

James is the son of zebedee, and the other James is the son of Alpheus not Joseph!
Matt 10:2-3

In Hebrew culture any close relative can be called brother or sister, lot was called Abraham’s brother but was his nephew.

Gen 12:5 and Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son..

Gen 13:8 And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdsmen and thy herdsmen; for we are Brothers.

The 12 sons of Jacob are brothers but all are not the children of Leah and all are not the children of Rachel! Tgey has 4 mother’s, These may be brothers and sisters but they are simply not the children of Blessed Mary ever Virgin mother of God!

Jose’s, Simon Salome are children of another Mary!

Mk 15:40 There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome;

Is Mary the mother of James?
If you mean the Blessed Virgin Mary then no. Her sister-in-law, Mary of Clopas, was the wife of Alphaeus (St. Joseph's brother), and mother of Simon, Joseph, and the apostles Judas Thaddeus, and James (the Less, brother of the Lord): Jesus' cousins.

The "sisters" of Jesus refer to women disciples.

Salome, or Mary Salome, was the wife of Zebedee, and mother of apostles John (the beloved), and James (the greater).


Regarding Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3, two of the four "brethren" are James and Judas of Alphaeus (cf. Mat. 10:2-3, Lk. 6:15-16, Act. 1:13). The third, Joseph, is identified in Mk. 15:40 as the brother of James of Alphaeus. The fourth, Simon, is identified in Mat. 13:55 and Mk. 6:3 as the brother of Joseph, James, and Judas of Alphaeus. Therefore, all four are were the sons of Alphaeus, not St. Joseph and the Blessed Virgin Mary.

“You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord’s body, that court of the eternal king” (ancient writer)

Martin Luther

It is an article of faith that Mary is Mother of the Lord and still a virgin. … Christ, we believe, came forth from a womb left perfectly intact. (Weimer’s The Works of Luther, English translation by Pelikan, Concordia, St. Louis, v. 11, pp. 319-320; v. 6. p. 510.)

John Calvin

(On the Heretic Helvidius) Helvidius displayed excessive ignorance in concluding that Mary must have had many sons, because Christ’s “brothers” are sometimes mentioned. (Harmony of Matthew, Mark and Luke, sec. 39 [Geneva, 1562], vol. 2 / From Calvin’s Commentaries, translated by William Pringle, Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 1949, p.215; on Matthew 13:55)

[On Matt 1:25:] The inference he [Helvidius] drew from it was, that Mary remained a virgin no longer than till her first birth, and that afterwards she had other children by her husband . . . No just and well-grounded inference can be drawn from these words . . . as to what took place after the birth of Christ. He is called “first-born”; but it is for the sole purpose of informing us that he was born of a virgin . . . What took place afterwards the historian does not inform us . . . No man will obstinately keep up the argument, except from an extreme fondness for disputation. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 107)

Under the word “brethren” the Hebrews include all cousins and other relations, whatever may be the degree of affinity. (Pringle, ibid., vol. I, p. 283 / Commentary on John, [7:3])

John Wesley

‘I believe that He [Jesus] was made man, joining the human nature with the divine in one person; being conceived by the singular operation of the Holy Ghost, and born of the blessed Virgin Mary, who, as well after as before she brought Him forth, continued a pure and unspotted virgin’ (‘Letter to a Roman Catholic’, The Works of Rev. John Wesley, vol 10, p. 81).


St Augustine, Sermons 186.1 (early 5th century):

“In being born of a Virgin who chose to remain a Virgin even before she knew who was to be born of her, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave” (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

“It was not the visible sun, but its invisible Creator who consecrated this day for us, when the Virgin Mother, fertile of womb and integral in her virginity, brought him forth, made visible for us, by whom, when he was invisible, she too was created. A Virgin conceiving, a Virgin bearing, a Virgin pregnant, a Virgin bringing forth, a Virgin perpetual. Why do you wonder at this, O man?” (Sermons 186:1 [A.D. 411]).

“Heretics called Antidicomarites are those who contradict the perpetual virginity of Mary and affirm that after Christ was born she was joined as one with her husband” (Heresies 56 [A.D. 428]).

St Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, III.28.3 (13th century):

"Without any hesitation we must abhor the error of Helvidius, who dared to assert that Christ's Mother, after His Birth, was carnally known by Joseph, and bore other children.
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For, in the first place, this is derogatory to Christ's perfection: for as He is in His Godhead the Only-Begotten of the Father, being thus His Son in every respect perfect, so it was becoming that He should be the Only-begotten son of His Mother, as being her perfect offspring.

“Secondly, this error is an insult to the Holy Ghost, whose "shrine" was the virginal womb, wherein He had formed the flesh of Christ: wherefore it was unbecoming that it should be desecrated by intercourse with man.

“Thirdly, this is derogatory to the dignity and holiness of God's Mother: for thus she would seem to be most ungrateful, were she not content with such a Son; and were she, of her own accord, by carnal intercourse to forfeit that virginity which had been miraculously preserved in her.

“Fourthly, it would be tantamount to an imputation of extreme presumption in Joseph, to assume that he attempted to violate her whom by the angel's revelation he knew to have conceived by the Holy Ghost.

“We must therefore simply assert that the Mother of God, as she was a virgin in conceiving Him and a virgin in giving Him birth, did she remain a virgin ever afterwards."

The blessed Mary mother of God, is a perpetual virgin to the glory of God!
 

Brakelite

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lk 1:49 immaculate conception of Mary & the miraculous conception of Jesus
KJV Luke 1:49
49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
As I said. Mental gymnastics that can make scripture mean anything you want.
The concept of the "immaculate conception" destroys one of the beauties of the gospel. The idea that Mary was miraculously delivered from "original sin"* in order to be "holy" enough to give birth to Jesus denies one of the wonders of the incarnation...that Jesus, as a human, was as one of us. He also was born with the same flesh because He was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. If He wasn't as one of us, then He cannot be our example because according to the doctrine of immaculate conception, He was born with a distinct advantage over us. What He did not have was the natural propensity to sin that is inherited through Adam. What He did have was the fleshly carnal nature of man which He had to contend with on a daily basis just as we do. Jesus proved that sin can be overcome by uniting with the divine. The immaculate conception theory makes the whole temptation event a farce. Jesus was different from His birth in that He was born with the divine nature from the beginning. We are born with the divine nature at our conversion. But we still must face temptation just as Jesus did, and we can still sin if we give in to temptation, just as Jesus could have if He had given in to temptation. There is no Biblical evidence that Mary was born different to anyone else. Yes, she was highly favored. She received that which every Jewish girl hoped for for centuries...to give birth to the Messiah. Mary was awesome also in that she raised her Son and taught Him the things of God from His youth. It was her training as a mother that set the foundation for His ministry.

*a concept I happen to disagree with because we are only judged for our own offenses, no-one else's...children are born innocent but with the human sin/flesh/carnal nature which means they have a powerful inevitability to sin that is attested to the first time they open their mouth.
 

Brakelite

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And the perpetual virginity of Mary
Lk 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
(This verse imply’s a vow of perpetual virginity, She refuses even the exalted dignity of mother of God and mother of our savior if it means violating Her vow)
I have no issue with Mary's virginity. The integrity of the church isn't damaged either way. Nor is prophecy. I personally believe Jesus had brothers and sisters... But they were Joseph's by a former marriage. They therefore were all older than Jesus and like the patriarch Joseph's brothers, (Isaac's soon) , his brothers at first resented Him.
 

theefaith

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KJV Luke 1:49
49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name.
As I said. Mental gymnastics that can make scripture mean anything you want.
The concept of the "immaculate conception" destroys one of the beauties of the gospel. The idea that Mary was miraculously delivered from "original sin"* in order to be "holy" enough to give birth to Jesus denies one of the wonders of the incarnation...that Jesus, as a human, was as one of us. He also was born with the same flesh because He was tempted in all points as we are, yet without sin. If He wasn't as one of us, then He cannot be our example because according to the doctrine of immaculate conception, He was born with a distinct advantage over us. What He did not have was the natural propensity to sin that is inherited through Adam. What He did have was the fleshly carnal nature of man which He had to contend with on a daily basis just as we do. Jesus proved that sin can be overcome by uniting with the divine. The immaculate conception theory makes the whole temptation event a farce. Jesus was different from His birth in that He was born with the divine nature from the beginning. We are born with the divine nature at our conversion. But we still must face temptation just as Jesus did, and we can still sin if we give in to temptation, just as Jesus could have if He had given in to temptation. There is no Biblical evidence that Mary was born different to anyone else. Yes, she was highly favored. She received that which every Jewish girl hoped for for centuries...to give birth to the Messiah. Mary was awesome also in that she raised her Son and taught Him the things of God from His youth. It was her training as a mother that set the foundation for His ministry.

*a concept I happen to disagree with because we are only judged for our own offenses, no-one else's...children are born innocent but with the human sin/flesh/carnal nature which means they have a powerful inevitability to sin that is attested to the first time they open their mouth.

explain Lk 1:28
Why is she greeted as a royal queen?
Why is she blessed?
 

theefaith

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I have no issue with Mary's virginity. The integrity of the church isn't damaged either way. Nor is prophecy. I personally believe Jesus had brothers and sisters... But they were Joseph's by a former marriage. They therefore were all older than Jesus and like the patriarch Joseph's brothers, (Isaac's soon) , his brothers at first resented Him.
That’s acceptable! Even the 12 sons of Jacob had four different mothers
Yet Rachel was considered the mother of them all spiritually as Mary is mother of all Christians spiritually
 

theefaith

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Now that's a very fanciful interpretation.

why is she declared blessed?
how did she find the favor of the grace of salvation lost by Adam Lk 1:30

show me any other such greeting in scripture?
And it is God who greets her thru His angel!

says she is of the house of david the king

and Jesus is the son of david Lk 1:32-33
And in the line of david including Solomon the mother of the king is queen
Jesus is king of heaven and Mary is queen of heaven
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Where does the Bible say the Bible is the final authority?

Basically you're asking people where does it say the True God is the final authority since the Bible is God word. The fact that the Bible is God's word and not mans word, should help all those who truly do serve the True God understand that the Bible is the final authority, why? Because God is the final authority and the Bible is God's word, not mans.
 

theefaith

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Basically you're asking people where does it say the True God is the final authority since the Bible is God word. The fact that the Bible is God's word and not mans word, should help all those who truly do serve the True God understand that the Bible is the final authority, why? Because God is the final authority and the Bible is God's word, not mans.

God is final authority but He founded a church and sent men to teach Matt 16:18 28:19
The Bible is the word of God but where does it say the Bible alone is the word of God?