Can God Be Eternal And Begotten

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Simpleman

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Hi everyone Simpleman here and this is my first post. As a keen student of the bible I like to get definitive answers to difficult questions, especially doctrine. So here's my first question and its on the trinity.

John 3:16 states “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only [Or his only begotten] Son” NIV

Ps 90:2 states
“Before the mountains were born
or you brought forth the earth and the world,
from everlasting to everlasting you are God”

If Jesus is God and eternal how can he at the same time be begotten?

According to Barns notes (can be found on e-sword) describes God as a parent in a father and son relationship

His only-begotten Son ... This is the highest expression of love of which we can conceive. A parent who should give up his only son to die for others who are guilty if this could or might be done - would show higher love than could be manifested in any other way. So it shows the depth of the love of God, that he was willing. to give his only Son into the hands of sinful men that he might be slain, and thus redeem them from eternal sorrow.

The term only begotten suggests a uniqueness between a father and son, I for example am begotten of my father, he is my begetter. However even though I share the same gene pool as my father I am not in actual fact him we are two separate beings.

We know from PS92:2 God is eternal and not begotten, so how do you equate these two passages of text.

I also find it interesting some translations leave the word begotten out such as the NIV and insert it as a footnote as quoted above.

So what’s it to be eternal or begotten?
 

Doppleganger

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Well, without quoting to much scripture. Were all God's children. Since before Adam's fall God had a plan of redemption. Christians believe in a divine birth from God through Mary that produced a son Jesus. They Believe in fallen Angels mating with Womankind. Yet, they can't believe Satan impregnated Eve. Mythology is full of these types of examples and Other Messiah's.

"The suffering and death of Osiris," says Sir G. Wilkinson, "were the great mystery of the Egyptian religion, and some traces of it are perceptible among other people of antiquity. His being the divine goodness, and the abstract idea of good; his manifestation upon earth, his death and resurrection, and his office as judge of the dead in a future state, look like the early revelation of a future manifestation of the Deity, converted into a mythological fable."

Obviously, these people weren't the promised Seed. God worked through humanity to bring his own nature here. And the Messiah, was the man the BRANCH, or Immanuel or "God with Us". Because he fulfilled those divine qualifications. Some philosophers argue that God can't be Omnipotent, Omniscience & Omnipresent at the same time ... Since the Israelis chose a King, God gave em One. Many other religions refer to a Creator God, A Sustainer God and Vengeful Redeeming God. Brahma, Vishnu & Shiva would be one example.

God won't have his plan passed down to those who wont receive or those who mess with it or change it. The perfect Creator God cannot be made flesh, which is totally inferior to the spirit. God chose Christ long ago because he was always there .. with him.

God use to speak through specific people prophets that had his authority to speak for him. Christ was the last of those. So that the Comforter ( the Sacrifice of Christ) may fall on all people, eventually for good or evil, I suppose. God breathed his spirit into Man and he received it back in Christ. And anyone one else who choses his spirit.

Just a few thoughts!
 

brionne

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May 31, 2010
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So what’s it to be eternal or begotten?

God is eternal because he had no beginning. Jesus though was begotten by God as you rightly state and therefore he is not eternal because he had a beginning.

This should be enough for some to realise that Jesus is not God and God is not Jesus. They are two separate beings...one being the Almighty and Eternal God the Father and the other being his 'firstborn and only begotten son'

The trinity is a false doctrine, plain and simple....its not a biblical teaching but stems from pagan religions.
 

Selene

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Hi everyone Simpleman here and this is my first post. As a keen student of the bible I like to get definitive answers to difficult questions, especially doctrine. So here's my first question and its on the trinity.

John 3:16 states “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only [Or his only begotten] Son” NIV

Ps 90:2 states
“Before the mountains were born
or you brought forth the earth and the world,
from everlasting to everlasting you are God”

If Jesus is God and eternal how can he at the same time be begotten?

According to Barns notes (can be found on e-sword) describes God as a parent in a father and son relationship



The term only begotten suggests a uniqueness between a father and son, I for example am begotten of my father, he is my begetter. However even though I share the same gene pool as my father I am not in actual fact him we are two separate beings.

We know from PS92:2 God is eternal and not begotten, so how do you equate these two passages of text.

I also find it interesting some translations leave the word begotten out such as the NIV and insert it as a footnote as quoted above.

So what’s it to be eternal or begotten?

The Father and the Son are the same and yet different. That is the mystery that is difficult to the human mind to comprehend. Both the Father and the Son is the eternal God; but they are also different because only the Son has both a human and divine nature whereas the Father and the Holy Spirit has only a divine nature.

The best way to understand it is to look at water. Water can exist in three forms: liquid, solid ice, and water vapor. All three have exactly the same composition. All three consist of two atoms of hydrogen and one atom of oxygen regardless of what form they are in. However, they are also different because all three have different densities. Ice has a higher density than liquid water, which explains why ice floats in liquid water. Water vapor has an even higher density. Science has also shown that liquid water, ice, and water vapor can co-exist as one. This is what science calls the "Triple point of Water." The triple point of any substance is that temperature and pressure at which the material can coexist in all three phases (solid, liquid and gas) in equilibrium. Specifically the triple point of water is 273.16 K at 611.2 Pa. All creation is a reflection of God's goodness, beauty, etc. So, even in nature, God shows a reflection of His true Self. He is three persons in One. The Holy Trinity exists.

In Christ,
Selene
 
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fivesense

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God use to speak through specific people prophets that had his authority to speak for him. Christ was the last of those. So that the Comforter ( the Sacrifice of Christ) may fall on all people, eventually for good or evil, I suppose. God breathed his spirit into Man and he received it back in Christ. And anyone one else who choses his spirit.

Just a few thoughts!
I think you may want to reconsider that. Paul the Apostle spoke prophetic utterances and changed radically the gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul was also a priest to the nations. The Lord was The Prophet, but not the last one.

fivesense

Hi everyone Simpleman here and this is my first post. As a keen student of the bible I like to get definitive answers to difficult questions, especially doctrine. So here's my first question and its on the trinity.

John 3:16 states “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only [Or his only begotten] Son” NIV

Ps 90:2 states
“Before the mountains were born
or you brought forth the earth and the world,
from everlasting to everlasting you are God”

If Jesus is God and eternal how can he at the same time be begotten?

According to Barns notes (can be found on e-sword) describes God as a parent in a father and son relationship



The term only begotten suggests a uniqueness between a father and son, I for example am begotten of my father, he is my begetter. However even though I share the same gene pool as my father I am not in actual fact him we are two separate beings.

We know from PS92:2 God is eternal and not begotten, so how do you equate these two passages of text.

I also find it interesting some translations leave the word begotten out such as the NIV and insert it as a footnote as quoted above.

So what’s it to be eternal or begotten?

So, what is your answer? Or, do you have none as a keen student of the Scriptures, and are looking to find someone keener than you? Is it light you are looking for, in order to become more conformed to the image of Christ? Is knowledge what you seek? Tell me, what do the Scriptures say about the Christ of God? Do you know, or are you reliant upon others for that, or don't really know what they say? Would you believe them if they stared out at you right back in your face, or would you dismiss them as not fitting your theology, even though it is the direct and clear revealed word of God?

Just wondering....

fivesense
 

pastorlesofm

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I think you may want to reconsider that. Paul the Apostle spoke prophetic utterances and changed radically the gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul was also a priest to the nations. The Lord was The Prophet, but not the last one.

fivesense



So, what is your answer? Or, do you have none as a keen student of the Scriptures, and are looking to find someone keener than you? Is it light you are looking for, in order to become more conformed to the image of Christ? Is knowledge what you seek? Tell me, what do the Scriptures say about the Christ of God? Do you know, or are you reliant upon others for that, or don't really know what they say? Would you believe them if they stared out at you right back in your face, or would you dismiss them as not fitting your theology, even though it is the direct and clear revealed word of God?

Just wondering....

fivesense


Let's not for get John speaking in the Book of Revelation, also. There are people today who the Lord speaks through also. I hope the sermon from your Pastors on Sundays have a sermon directly from the Throne of God, right,beloved? The Holy Spirit gifts are still all around us and in us. He has not been removed from us yet, at least I hope He hasn't, we would be in trouble with out His convicting power.
 

veteran

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No need to confuse the issue with leaven doctrines of men.

Heb 2:9
9 But we see Jesus, Who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
(KJV)

The idea of Jesus (Immanuel - God with us) being The Only Begotten Son is about God come in the flesh for the sufferring of death, to become the Perfect Sacrifice for sin, for one and all time.
 

veteran

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Let's not for get John speaking in the Book of Revelation, also. There are people today who the Lord speaks through also. I hope the sermon from your Pastors on Sundays have a sermon directly from the Throne of God, right,beloved? The Holy Spirit gifts are still all around us and in us. He has not been removed from us yet, at least I hope He hasn't, we would be in trouble with out His convicting power.

True that a pastor teaching in the pulpit should be with a God-inspired preaching by The Holy Spirit. But that should always align with what's written in God's Holy Writ, for His Word was given through The Holy Spirit. If someone in the congregation doesn't really know what God's written Word teaches, then a pastor could teach many other things and they possibly wouldn't recognize it.

Thus Holy Writ is still The Measure in all of Christ's Churches today. Someone claiming to be a prophet is to be measured by that Holy Writ too. And truly, what new news can one claiming to be a prophet today bring that God has not already given us in His Holy Writ? If someone receives an inkling by The Holy Spirit meant for a particular congregation, that may be termed as a prophecy, but it does not place the person giving it in the same category as God's called prophets which He gave us His Holy Writ through, Which Holy Writ is for all believers everywhere, and not just one congregation.
 

fivesense

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True that a pastor teaching in the pulpit should be with a God-inspired preaching by The Holy Spirit. But that should always align with what's written in God's Holy Writ, for His Word was given through The Holy Spirit. If someone in the congregation doesn't really know what God's written Word teaches, then a pastor could teach many other things and they possibly wouldn't recognize it.

Thus Holy Writ is still The Measure in all of Christ's Churches today. Someone claiming to be a prophet is to be measured by that Holy Writ too. And truly, what new news can one claiming to be a prophet today bring that God has not already given us in His Holy Writ? If someone receives an inkling by The Holy Spirit meant for a particular congregation, that may be termed as a prophecy, but it does not place the person giving it in the same category as God's called prophets which He gave us His Holy Writ through, Which Holy Writ is for all believers everywhere, and not just one congregation.
This is well put, and worthy of all acceptation. Paul completed the word of God to us:

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

The dispensation of the grace and justification of the ungodly sinner can only be found in the writings of Paul, and it is the latest and final word to us, the nations. Those who would attempt to persuade others that they have a "prophecy from God" are liars and deceivers, ignorant of their darkness within. As you say, tested according to what is revealed in the Writings is what determines whether what has been spoken is, or isn't, of God.

While it is easy to dismiss others as teaching "doctrines of men", it must be remembered that no one is uneffected by the vast pool of theology that has submerged the ecclesia in the quicksand of deception. All are susceptible by reason of human weakness. It is only by grace and faith in God, and the mercy of His hand to open the blind eye, that anyone is able to correctly teach out of the word of God. We should remember this when dealing with others who seem to be contrary, for even we ourselves, are subject to this weakness, regardless of the quantity of our knowledge of the Scriptures.

fivesense
 

Doppleganger

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God use to speak through specific people prophets that had his authority to speak for him. Christ was the last of those. So that the Comforter ( the Sacrifice of Christ) may fall on all people, eventually for good or evil, I suppose. God breathed his spirit into Man and he received it back in Christ. And anyone one else who choses his spirit.

I think you may want to reconsider that. ...

Fivesense ... I was only speaking, in reference to the way Old Testestament prophets were commissioned, by proxy ... as opposed to the New Testament apostles, who had the Comforter that came as the Holy Spirit that could fall on anyone. Gentile or Jew. There is no Divine Revelation by specific prophets to a specific people, since pentecost. Even this was limited to a short time period, soon after Christ's death. Not that the Spirit of God doesn't speak to people.

The Prophets of Old had specific missions and duty's, Whereas since the New Testament, its a general fulfillment, to man in general. This is mentioned somewhere in the NT. Which is off the subject for this post.

Heb 1:1&2a ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son ...

Even Paul was speaking through the Spirit Of Christ, not by divine revelation (per say) through God.
 

fivesense

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Fivesense ... I was only speaking, in reference to the way Old Testestament prophets were commissioned, by proxy ... as opposed to the New Testament apostles, who had the Comforter that came as the Holy Spirit that could fall on anyone. Gentile or Jew. There is no Divine Revelation by specific prophets to a specific people, since pentecost. Even this was limited to a short time period, soon after Christ's death. Not that the Spirit of God doesn't speak to people.

The Prophets of Old had specific missions and duty's, Whereas since the New Testament, its a general fulfillment, to man in general. This is mentioned somewhere in the NT. Which is off the subject for this post.

Heb 1:1&2a ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son ...

Even Paul was speaking through the Spirit Of Christ, not by divine revelation (per say) through God.



I understand what you are saying, and it is off topic-technically. Paul was commissioned directly by the glorified Christ from heaven. He received it after the Pentecostal outpouring, and it was completely prophetic. His knowledge of the future concerning the Body and God's plan for the ages was never revealed to anyone else. No other "New Testament" writer comes close to his prophetic utterances.

Paul's writings and letters were and are prophetic, foretelling of the things to come, and the Father and Son both revealed the secrets to Him. They are in one accord and the Lord would never speak a thing unless His Father told Him to. God is invisible, inaudible, and Spirit. His Son is the visible image of the Father. Christ Jesus is the channel of all things that come out of God. It is impossible to say that Paul's secrets were" not by divine revelation through God".

Ro 16:25-26 . Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets (literally, writings prophetic), according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

None of the Twelve knew of these secrets, they were even hidden from the O.T. Prophets. They were revealed to Paul, written down and circulated among the Gentiles. They were and are prophetic and powerful unto salvation.

fivesense
 

Simpleman

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I’ve read all the comments; none however answer the question. The trinity and the illustration of water is no more than that an illustration, an attempt to say the three are one. In fact nowhere in scripture does it say the three are one. And even though Jesus says the Father and I are one (that doesn’t prove the trinity, it just shows the unity of two beings that have oneness of mind, a oneness of purpose) nowhere does it say God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are one.



Look at the word begotten, Isaac was begotten of Abraham, and of the same gene pool - monogenes. Abraham had a unique and close relationship with his son to the point of sacrificing him, even though he was prevented from doing so at the last minute. God the Father (interestingly nowhere does it use the term in scripture God the Son) “ gave is only begotten” as did Abraham (even though begotten of Sarah). Abraham begot Isaac as did the Father with his only begotten son. Thus Jesus and the Father have a special relationship (monogenes) that connect to the only child (as is the case of Abraham and Isaac) and through that Son God created all things. The simple fact is Jesus had a beginning, “in the beginning was the word”, God on the other hand had no beginning, so when was the beginning if God is eternal and has been here forever? Jesus was and is an exact representation of his father and reflects the father’s qualities, but sits at Gods right hand. If your son sat at your right hand would he be you and you him? Think about it.
 

KatP

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I’ve read all the comments; none however answer the question. The trinity and the illustration of water is no more than that an illustration, an attempt to say the three are one. In fact nowhere in scripture does it say the three are one. And even though Jesus says the Father and I are one (that doesn’t prove the trinity, it just shows the unity of two beings that have oneness of mind, a oneness of purpose) nowhere does it say God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are one.



Look at the word begotten, Isaac was begotten of Abraham, and of the same gene pool - monogenes. Abraham had a unique and close relationship with his son to the point of sacrificing him, even though he was prevented from doing so at the last minute. God the Father (interestingly nowhere does it use the term in scripture God the Son) “ gave is only begotten” as did Abraham (even though begotten of Sarah). Abraham begot Isaac as did the Father with his only begotten son. Thus Jesus and the Father have a special relationship (monogenes) that connect to the only child (as is the case of Abraham and Isaac) and through that Son God created all things. The simple fact is Jesus had a beginning, “in the beginning was the word”, God on the other hand had no beginning, so when was the beginning if God is eternal and has been here forever? Jesus was and is an exact representation of his father and reflects the father’s qualities, but sits at Gods right hand. If your son sat at your right hand would he be you and you him? Think about it.
It is usually all about Jesus if the three were co-equal then each God would be worshiped equally, the holy spirit is usually forgotten and never mentioned.

It really is Jesus worship.
 

Selene

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I’ve read all the comments; none however answer the question. The trinity and the illustration of water is no more than that an illustration, an attempt to say the three are one. In fact nowhere in scripture does it say the three are one. And even though Jesus says the Father and I are one (that doesn’t prove the trinity, it just shows the unity of two beings that have oneness of mind, a oneness of purpose) nowhere does it say God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are one.



Look at the word begotten, Isaac was begotten of Abraham, and of the same gene pool - monogenes. Abraham had a unique and close relationship with his son to the point of sacrificing him, even though he was prevented from doing so at the last minute. God the Father (interestingly nowhere does it use the term in scripture God the Son) “ gave is only begotten” as did Abraham (even though begotten of Sarah). Abraham begot Isaac as did the Father with his only begotten son. Thus Jesus and the Father have a special relationship (monogenes) that connect to the only child (as is the case of Abraham and Isaac) and through that Son God created all things. The simple fact is Jesus had a beginning, “in the beginning was the word”, God on the other hand had no beginning, so when was the beginning if God is eternal and has been here forever? Jesus was and is an exact representation of his father and reflects the father’s qualities, but sits at Gods right hand. If your son sat at your right hand would he be you and you him? Think about it.

Hello Simpleman,

Christ is the ONLY BEGOTTEN Son of God (John 1:18, 3:16-18; Hebrews 11:17; and 1 John 4:9). Adam did not have a human father nor a human mother. He was created by God, but Adam was never called the "only begotten son of God." Only Jesus holds this title.

The Church Fathers who wrote the creeds had a different view of what it means by "only begotten Son of God." They recognized that the Bible depicts the Son as having His identity as the Son before His incarnation. In 1 John 4:9 we read, that "the love of God was made manifest among us [in] that God sent His only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him." Thus, the second person of the Trinity was already the Son when He was sent into the world.

The same truth is taught under a different analogy in John 1:1,14 where we read, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . . . And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us." Here the Word (i.e., the second person of the Trinity) is pictured as having His identity as the Word from all eternity. Thus, from all eternity the Word of God proceeded from God, just as speech proceeds from a speaker; similarly, a Son proceeds from His Father. Under both analogies, whether as the Son of God or the Word of God, the second person of the Trinity is depicted as eternally proceeding from the first person of the Trinity.

In the Church, one God is preached, one God who is above all things and through all things and in all things (Ephesians 4:6).

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all

God is above all things as Father, for He is principle and source; He is through all things through the Word; and He is in all things in the Holy Spirit. This is also St. Paul's teaching in his second letter to the Corinthians: The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. For grace and the gift of the Trinity are given by the Father through the Son in the Holy Spirit. And so, Christ sent His Apostles out into the world to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19). He did not say to baptize all nations only in the name of the Father.

In Christ,
Selene
 

fivesense

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Hello Simpleman,
... In 1 John 4:9 we read, that "the love of God was made manifest among us [in] that God sent His only Son into the world, so that we might live through Him." Thus, the second person of the Trinity was already the Son when He was sent into the world.
John 1:1,14 where we read, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. . . . And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us."

In the Church, one God is preached, one God who is above all things and through all things and in all things (Ephesians 4:6).

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all

In Christ,
Selene

If you would believe the last two scriptures you posted, you would not try to impress error upon us, for there truly is only One God, out of Whom all is.

1 John 4:9 make no mention of the pre-incarnated Logos. It is speaking of the reason why He begat a Son in the earth, for life and light to be manifested through Him. This is an inference on your part, that Christ was the Son of God prior to His incarnation, which is the fruit of human reasoning and not divine revelation.

In John 1:1, the syntax of the Greek, and the exact wording of the Original Manuscripts reads, " In beginning was the logos, and the logos was TOWARDS God, and God was the logos." It does not say "with God", it says "towards God". It also does not say "the word was God", it says," God was the logos". The differences are major and critical to proper understanding of God.

Jesus always pointed the way to the Father, and refused to be worshipped in the same way as that which is due the Supreme One, Who cannot be divided into three, without blaspheming. Christ is the Creator of all things, and through Him the Father expresses Himself. Christ is the visible image of the invisible One true God. He is the Firstborn of all creation, the Alpha and Omega, The First and the Last. He is not God the Father. He is the Son of God, Who is greater than the Christ.
Jn 14:28 ... because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

This is the testimony of Scripture.

There is no Greek word "eternity". That is an interpretation from the Latin language, and is not a concept found in the Holy Writings. It comes from theological gymnastics wherein the truth revealed is not acceptable to inferior minds of men, and has to be refuted or made to fit human reasoning.

As you pointed out, your surmisings are derived from the creeds of men, the "Church Fathers" as you affectionately call them. It is pitiable that they could not embrace the truth as it was written by the Author, and had to add to what He graciously gave to us by His servants. But, this too is the wisdom of God.

fivesense
 

Selene

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If you would believe the last two scriptures you posted, you would not try to impress error upon us, for there truly is only One God, out of Whom all is.

1 John 4:9 make no mention of the pre-incarnated Logos. It is speaking of the reason why He begat a Son in the earth, for life and light to be manifested through Him. This is an inference on your part, that Christ was the Son of God prior to His incarnation, which is the fruit of human reasoning and not divine revelation.

Hello Fivesense,

St. John was speaking of Christ as being the Word of God because the Word became flesh and dwelt among them (John 1:14).

In John 1:1, the syntax of the Greek, and the exact wording of the Original Manuscripts reads, " In beginning was the logos, and the logos was TOWARDS God, and God was the logos." It does not say "with God", it says "towards God". It also does not say "the word was God", it says," God was the logos". The differences are major and critical to proper understanding of God.

The Greek word "pros" ALSO means "with." St. John says that this "logos" became flesh and dwelt among them. Therefore, in the beginning was this logos that became flesh and this logos that became flesh was with God, and God was this logos that became flesh. So, I agree....God was this logos that came in the flesh and dwelt among us. God is Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is God because Christ did consider Himself EQUAL with God.

Philippians 2:5-6 For let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God

Jesus always pointed the way to the Father, and refused to be worshipped in the same way as that which is due the Supreme One, Who cannot be divided into three, without blaspheming

My brother, as I pointed out to you, Christ considered HImself also equal with God (Philippians 2:5-6) and that everything on earth, and under the earth and in the Heavens shall bow to Jesus' name (Phiippians 2:10)

Philippians 2:10 That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

If Christ refused to be worshipped as you say, then why should every knee.....and I mean "EVERY KNEE" on the earth, under the earth, and even in the Heavens bow to Him? Shouldn't they bow only to God and to God alone?

Christ is the Creator of all things, and through Him the Father expresses Himself. Christ is the visible image of the invisible One true God. He is the Firstborn of all creation, the Alpha and Omega, The First and the Last. He is not God the Father. He is the Son of God, Who is greater than the Christ.
Jn 14:28 ... because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

My brother, when Christ says "for my Father is greater than I" He was speaking of Himself here as He was made MAN. The Bible does not contradict itself. In Philippians, Christ is called "equal with God" because He is God, but in John 14:28, Christ says that the Father is greater than He because He speaks of HImself as a man.

If you had read my previous post, I stated that the Father and the Son are the SAME, but ALSO DIFFERENT. That is the mystery. I tried explaining it by using the analogy of water. See my previous post.


As you pointed out, your surmisings are derived from the creeds of men, the "Church Fathers" as you affectionately call them. It is pitiable that they could not embrace the turth as it was written by the Author, and had to add to what He graciously gave to us by His servants. But this too is the wisdom of God.

My brother, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of Truth to the Church Fathers because the Holy Spirit dwells in His Church with Christ as Her Head. What I wrote in my post came from St. Athanasius who lived in the 4th century and from St. Irenaeus who lived in the 2nd century. We baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit just as Jesus told His Apostles. He did not say to baptize in the name of the Father ONLY.

In Christ,
Selene



 

Strangelove

New Member
Aug 29, 2010
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LOLZ>>>

OK. this is one of those Trinity Vs Oneness discussions. I've seen threads like this run to over 2,000 posts. With proponents of both sides calling the other heretics.

There is only one God. the Lord is one.

From what we see in scripture, the bible describes 3 major aspects/persons/manifestations/forms whatever you wanna call it of the one God.

I'm not saying that it's pointless talking about it. But its clearly THEOSOPHY. It's a personal viewpoint. We obviously cannot understand the exact mechanics by which God works.

When a talk like this involves people saying that an opposite viewpoint is "false doctrine" then I just think thats really harsh. It's not clear from scripture one way or the other.

Just my thoughts.

Doc.
 

Simpleman

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Aug 27, 2010
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OK let's reword this, if Jesus is God he would have no beginning.
John 1:1 says “In the beginning was the word”
When was that, when was the beginning?
At what point did Jesus become Gods only begotten?
 

fivesense

New Member
Mar 7, 2010
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WI
LOLZ>>>
OK. this is one of those Trinity Vs Oneness discussions. I've seen threads like this run to over 2,000 posts. With proponents of both sides calling the other heretics.
There is only one God. the Lord is one.
From what we see in scripture, the bible describes 3 major aspects/persons/manifestations/forms whatever you wanna call it of the one God.
I'm not saying that it's pointless talking about it. But its clearly THEOSOPHY. It's a personal viewpoint. We obviously cannot understand the exact mechanics by which God works.
When a talk like this involves people saying that an opposite viewpoint is "false doctrine" then I just think thats really harsh. It's not clear from scripture one way or the other.
Just my thoughts.
Doc.
Strangelove, I am certain that a proper understanding of this subject, in accord with the declarations of God, can resolve any conflict about it. It is the failure to believe God that is the cause of obscurity, not the clash of viewpoints. You render the matter settled with believing there is only One God. And such is the mass of evidence provided by God through His word. You are blessed for believing so. Others are not in a position to enjoy that assurance of faith, being restrained by ignorance and traditional constructs of theology. It is my hope to aid those who are truly seeking God for truth to find the mind of God, and not rely on their reasonings above what is written by the Author. I am not seeking my own. I realize that not all want this knowledge, but for those who are seeking, the channel should be made accessible and those who are qualified should submit themselves to it. I do appreciate your testimonies, and the grace you are walking in towards all.

fivesense
 

Strangelove

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Aug 29, 2010
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Strangelove, I am certain that a proper understanding of this subject, in accord with the declarations of God, can resolve any conflict about it. It is the failure to believe God that is the cause of obscurity, not the clash of viewpoints. You render the matter settled with believing there is only One God. And such is the mass of evidence provided by God through His word. You are blessed for believing so. Others are not in a position to enjoy that assurance of faith, being restrained by ignorance and traditional constructs of theology. It is my hope to aid those who are truly seeking God for truth to find the mind of God, and not rely on their reasonings above what is written by the Author. I am not seeking my own. I realize that not all want this knowledge, but for those who are seeking, the channel should be made accessible and those who are qualified should submit themselves to it. I do appreciate your testimonies, and the grace you are walking in towards all.

fivesense

'Preciate your gracious comments fivesense. And I've enjoyed reading all your posts so far in the short time I've been here. Like I say, I got no problem with the subject matter per se. And if someone comes along and says that God is actually 3 completely seperate persons distinct from one another then...yeah...they deserve to be pulled up on that. Thing is, most peeps are not that extreme. Most people who talk about a trinity are simply saying that the one God manifests Himself in 3 major ways. Which is fine far as I'm concerned. If they want to label God as being Triune then its not a big deal from where I sit. I mean I wouldnt bite their head off for saying Trinity which is perhaps what a lot of people at the other end of the spectrum seem to do a little to readily...like Trinity is a dirty word or something. Not saying that your doing this but on another forum I was at this started happening and suddenly people are trying to prove exactly how God works which from my point of view is not really within our grasp to do. We'll see how this fledgling thread goes though.