Raising Minimum Wage

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Cristo Rei

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Nike shoes are made by child slave labor in China.
China has a competitive school system. Meaning that each higher grade has fewer seats available than the previous one. And if you aren't smarter than some of your peers you are out and immediately going to work.
Coal mines, shoe sewing or other menial tasks that you either complete your quota or try peeling garlic in prison for a bowl of rice...and if you don't meet quota there you don't get the rice.

How sad... So immoral is our society... U know why they use kids for shoes...
Cos their little hands can better fit inside little shoes to sew them up...
South America is a hell hole too isn't it?
 

JohnDB

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That sounds better... Its a difficult balance to strike i think... Has the min always been so low?



$30p/h is about average for the factory trades here... Site trades like plumbing and electrician get closer to 40

The dollar here goes much farther than there...10/13 dollar difference.
And for $40/hr aussie dollars I don't get out of bed...I'm one of them high skilled electricians...I'm going to ask for more and do half the work because you won't be able to get it done without me.
Anybody can install this stuff...but if you want it to work properly you gotta have me. And that's why I get fired a lot. I'm expensive. Too old, grumpy, and expensive to do bull work anymore. But I solve the most complicated problems for people.
 

JohnDB

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How sad... So immoral is our society... U know why they use kids for shoes...
Cos their little hands can better fit inside little shoes to sew them up...
South America is a hell hole too isn't it?

Most of Africa is a hell hole. From sub saharan to the Southern tip...there's problems the second you are on the South side of the Mediterranean.
 

Cristo Rei

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The dollar here goes much farther than there...10/13 dollar difference.
And for $40/hr aussie dollars I don't get out of bed...I'm one of them high skilled electricians...I'm going to ask for more and do half the work because you won't be able to get it done without me.
Anybody can install this stuff...but if you want it to work properly you gotta have me. And that's why I get fired a lot. I'm expensive. Too old, grumpy, and expensive to do bull work anymore. But I solve the most complicated problems for people.

Ye i caught on at the end. 40 here is 30 there...
But most sparkies here are subcontractors and earn over $70 p/h though they have a lot more expenses to pay...

Most of Africa is a hell hole. From sub saharan to the Southern tip...there's problems the second you are on the South side of the Mediterranean.

Ye i don't even associate Africa with work, maybe just South Africa...

So your old, grumpy and overpaid... ;)... How old are you?
 

JohnDB

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How sad... So immoral is our society... U know why they use kids for shoes...
Cos their little hands can better fit inside little shoes to sew them up...
South America is a hell hole too isn't it?

I used to buy redwing boots for work because they were the most comfortable and made in America. $300 per pair that lasts me around a year or two depending on the jobs and then get them re-soled and go on for a year.
That's almost $400 aussie dollars per pair. (Good boots though)

They shipped the last boot to be made in usa to either mexico or south America to be made there.
Dropped the price $25 at the same time instead of raising the price...I asked what was up with the cheaper price and the shop owner clued me in.
 

JohnDB

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Ye i caught on at the end. 40 here is 30 there...
But most sparkies here are subcontractors and earn over $70 p/h though they have a lot more expenses to pay...



Ye i don't even associate Africa with work, maybe just South Africa...

So your old, grumpy and overpaid... ;)... How old are you?
Mid 50's...

Let's put it this way...
If I get a call (to someone I don't know anything about) to come do sparky work...

I get $200 to show up and say, "You are right, it is broken and you need an electrician to fix it"
Anything I do after that is more $. Time + materials (profit on materials too) @ $75/hr. For just me...if I have to call for assistance...it's a lot more $$$ no matter what but some things are more expensive than others.

I'm easy....just not cheap.
 

JohnDB

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South America is diverse.
Brazil is beautiful. They are also very independent.
Not as rich as American society but they do just fine.
$30/day is a highly paid worker...I can hire engineers for that sort of wages in Brazil.

Bolivia?
You do good to not get robbed.
Banana republic is a term that applies. Same with Columbia and Peru. Venezuela has gone dictatorship... everyone is upset about it but nobody is upset enough to do anything about it. Soon enough they will fall into poverty and not be able to buy rice and beans anymore.

Mexico? Not a good place either to go unless you already know your way around.

Still have to worry about gangs and thugs.

Honduras is a cesspool. Everything and everyone there is out to get you. From the beaches to the interior areas. Even the mango trees will burn you. Very inhospitable place.
 
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Gideons300

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Joe Biden has promised to raise minimum wage as soon as he is in office. (If he can)

Why does he care so much about this?
It's artificial pricing for labor...will absolutely cause inflation and many jobs and businesses will go overseas because of it as labor is much cheaper there.

And where Joe (as does any Democrat) refuses to admit this is the goal...it very much is the goal. He is sending jobs overseas or at least over the border.

Also it gives labor unions another boost in the arm as they usually have contracts for labor that are based on the minimum wage.

The average family household in America runs off of two salaries making @ $45,000 US. for a total income of about $90K. But in certain areas there exists very low skill jobs like furniture manufacturing or assembly line type jobs...
Usually these low skill jobs are also environmentally unfriendly. (Leather tanning)
These jobs evaporate when minimum wage gets raised. Because if a widget costs $80 each to make in America it only will cost $11 each with overseas manufacture.
Of course these widgets will sell for the exact same price as always...And somebody else's front yard gets all the sludge from making it.
But also...the "somebody else" gets a job building it.
Much of the world $9,000-$12,000 US is a year's salary...they don't purchase as many commodities (consistent price around the world) as Americans on a consumer level. Because wages are so much lower. And where $9-12K won't buy luxury food and lifestyle...75% of the world lives on rice and beans of some sort...and is happy to have the job.
When there aren't any jobs the gangs rule the streets. Having to pay a bunch of thugs for the "privilege" to pick through garbage for anything of value to sell...

Now here in America the service jobs suffer the most. Automated Ordering and online ordering for fast food or retail goods help cut costs immensely.
If Amazon could get a robot to deliver your purchases...it would.

Concerts roadies and hotel cleaning staff suffer...so does the quality of service because higher forced pay doesn't equate to better service. A high paid moron is still a moron.

But the higher wages makes shipping go up, foreign policy becomes much easier too.
All your reasoning from a monetary standpoint may be well and good, other than the fact that the average household median income is not $90,000 per year but $65,000. This is after averaging in the 12 states where it is much higher.

According to the U.S. census info, it is closer to less than $55,000 for the vast majority of households. And at the bottom end of the scale, millions making minimum wage struggle to pay their rent, put food on the table and clothe their children. If both a man and wife each make $10 per hour, after taxes and SS, combined, they bring home about $30,000 per year. Not $90,000. $30,000.

You have looked at this as a 'business' decision but are we not supposed to look at it more as a decision affecting human beings that Jesus loves? Are we not to look at things just as God does? And if so, what does the Bible tell us God's opinion is on the matter?

"Whoever oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God."

Proverbs 14:31

"Whoever is kind to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will reward them for what they have done."

Proverbs 19:7

"Whoever shuts their ears to the cry of the poor will also cry out and not be answered."

Proverbs 21:13

"The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern."

Proverbs 29:7

"Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—when you see the naked, to clothe them, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?

Isaiah 58:6-10

Why do you crush My people and grind the faces of the poor?” declares the Lord GOD of Hosts

Isaiah 3:15

And what did Jesus Himself have to say on this matter?

"If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth."

John 3:17-18

The middle class is slowly disappearing. A few are getting mega-rich while more and more fall through the cracks. Homelessness is about to take a huge jump, and it will not be drug addicts and alcoholics, or "thugs" and "morons" as you called them. They will be families, who love their children just like we love ours.

Make no mistake. Our Christianity is about to be tested as to whether we truly have the love of God shed abroad in our hearts.

So, what will we do when members of our own fellowships are homeless, and their kids are hungry? We had best think on this, for that day is fast approaching.

blessings,

Gids
 

Cristo Rei

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Mid 50's...

Oh ok... I thought u were close to 70 for some reason...

I used to buy redwing boots for work because they were the most comfortable and made in America. $300 per pair that lasts me around a year or two depending on the jobs and then get them re-soled and go on for a year.
That's almost $400 aussie dollars per pair. (Good boots though)

They shipped the last boot to be made in usa to either mexico or south America to be made there.
Dropped the price $25 at the same time instead of raising the price...I asked what was up with the cheaper price and the shop owner clued me in.

America still has some quality companies but many have sold out. Vise grip comes to mind, their clamps used to be the best now their Chinese.

Miller and Lincoln still build top range welding machines. The old Miller transformers were the best by far about 15 years ago i reckon but the Euro machines overtook the American ones with their inverters...

Similar story in aviation, America used to dominate. Airbus was nothing. Now the European company has the bigger share of the market and Boeing is in all sorts of trouble with their 737 max saga
 
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JohnDB

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All your reasoning from a monetary standpoint may be well and good, other than the fact that the average household median income is not $90,000 per year but $65,000. This is after averaging in the 12 states where it is much higher.

According to the U.S. census info, it is closer to less than $55,000 for the vast majority of households. And at the bottom end of the scale, millions making minimum wage struggle to pay their rent, put food on the table and clothe their children. If both a man and wife each make $10 per hour, after taxes and SS, combined, they bring home about $30,000 per year. Not $90,000. $30,000.

You have looked at this as a 'business' decision but are we not supposed to look at it more as a decision affecting human beings that Jesus loves? Are we not to look at things just as God does? And if so, what does the Bible tell us God's opinion is on the matter?

"Whoever oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God."

Proverbs 14:31

"Whoever is kind to the poor lends to the Lord, and he will reward them for what they have done."

Proverbs 19:7

"Whoever shuts their ears to the cry of the poor will also cry out and not be answered."

Proverbs 21:13

"The righteous care about justice for the poor, but the wicked have no such concern."

Proverbs 29:7

"Is not this the kind of fasting I have chosen: to loose the chains of injustice and untie the cords of the yoke, to set the oppressed free and break every yoke? Is it not to share your food with the hungry and to provide the poor wanderer with shelter—when you see the naked, to clothe them, and not to turn away from your own flesh and blood?

Isaiah 58:6-10

Why do you crush My people and grind the faces of the poor?” declares the Lord GOD of Hosts

Isaiah 3:15

And what did Jesus Himself have to say on this matter?

"If anyone has material possessions and sees a brother or sister in need but has no pity on them, how can the love of God be in that person? Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth."

John 3:17-18

The middle class is slowly disappearing. A few are getting mega-rich while more and more fall through the cracks. Homelessness is about to take a huge jump, and it will not be drug addicts and alcoholics, or "thugs" and "morons" as you called them. They will be families, who love their children just like we love ours.

Make no mistake. Our Christianity is about to be tested as to whether we truly have the love of God shed abroad in our hearts.

So, what will we do when members of our own fellowships are homeless, and their kids are hungry? We had best think on this, for that day is fast approaching.

blessings,

Gids

Your income average results are skewed with all retirees and SS and welfare recipients included in the mix.
And I'm discussing average, nuclear families.

Average single parent households do usually have around a 60,000/yr average income that is NOT adjusted for child support payments. (Meaning that child support payments make it even higher)

There are a couple of sectors that these low wage jobs exist...

Service sectors... like retirement and nursing homes. Fast food and restaurants and retail including Amazon.

Food production (non farm)
These are your processing plants that butcher/process meats and vegetables.

Otherwise the constant political volatility in minimum wage has actually removed these jobs before they ever started in America anymore.

Service Sectors jobs exist because of market pricing. And the quality and productivity of these jobs has taken drastic hits over the years in America. What used to require only one individual now requires 1.5-1.75 people.

A waiter used to get 5 tables and paid $5 per shift. (It covered uniform and meal and the jobs were highly fought for...a line of 200+ waiting for the day you quit or got fired) Now waiters get paid a reduced minimum wage and only 3 tables...and the restaurant begs you to come in to work for scheduled shifts.

So...I don't believe that things are exactly like what you are claiming.

Also...most of the more industrial, factory food production jobs are usually ones the new immigrants work. Not the people who have been here for a while.

Just saying...I've worked with Venezuelans that won't touch minimum wage.
 

JohnDB

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Oh ok... I thought u were close to 70 for some reason...



America still has some quality companies but many have sold out. Vise grip comes to mind, their clamps used to be the best now their Chinese.

Miller and Lincoln still build top range welding machines. The old Miller transformers were the best by far about 15 years ago i reckon but the Euro machines overtook the American ones with their inverters...

Similar story in aviation, America used to dominate. Airbus was nothing. Now the European company has the bigger share of the market and Boeing is in all sorts of trouble with their 737 max saga

I was wiring up a new miller plasma cutter...

That thing was sexy as all get out. I tried it out and man oh man can I get creative with that thing. Works nothing like the older models.
I heard their new mig welders are the same way...a whole group of electronics that takes all the craftsmanship voodoo and magic out of the game.
I learned on the huge units that were just an adjustable transformer and set of diodes.

Things have changed a lot.
 

Gideons300

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Your income average results are skewed with all retirees and SS and welfare recipients included in the mix.
And I'm discussing average, nuclear families.

Average single parent households do usually have around a 60,000/yr average income that is NOT adjusted for child support payments. (Meaning that child support payments make it even higher)

There are a couple of sectors that these low wage jobs exist...

Service sectors... like retirement and nursing homes. Fast food and restaurants and retail including Amazon.

Food production (non farm)
These are your processing plants that butcher/process meats and vegetables.

Otherwise the constant political volatility in minimum wage has actually removed these jobs before they ever started in America anymore.

Service Sectors jobs exist because of market pricing. And the quality and productivity of these jobs has taken drastic hits over the years in America. What used to require only one individual now requires 1.5-1.75 people.

A waiter used to get 5 tables and paid $5 per shift. (It covered uniform and meal and the jobs were highly fought for...a line of 200+ waiting for the day you quit or got fired) Now waiters get paid a reduced minimum wage and only 3 tables...and the restaurant begs you to come in to work for scheduled shifts.

So...I don't believe that things are exactly like what you are claiming.

Also...most of the more industrial, factory food production jobs are usually ones the new immigrants work. Not the people who have been here for a while.

Just saying...I've worked with Venezuelans that won't touch minimum wage.
According to the U.S. census, the average median TWO parent family's income is $65,000. Where are you coming up with your numbers?

I was hoping you would address the scriptures provided and comment on them.

blessings,

Gideon

p.s. Just out of curiosity, have you been around people that work minimum wage jobs a lot? I have and my heart hurts for the struggles they endure.
 

JohnDB

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According to the U.S. census, the average median TWO parent family's income is $65,000. Where are you coming up with your numbers?

I was hoping you would address the scriptures provided and comment on them.

blessings,

Gideon

p.s. Just out of curiosity, have you been around people that work minimum wage jobs a lot? I have and my heart hurts for the struggles they endure.

Here in Nashville TN if you tried to offer employment at minimum wage the only ones that would show up to work would be crickets.

We have long since not paid those little wages.
There are a few earning those wages but they are in high school still living with their parents.
So...no... don't know many people actually accepting work for those wages.
 

Gideons300

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Here in Nashville TN if you tried to offer employment at minimum wage the only ones that would show up to work would be crickets.

We have long since not paid those little wages.
There are a few earning those wages but they are in high school still living with their parents.
So...no... don't know many people actually accepting work for those wages.
If that is the case, why is it even an issue about the minimum wage going up to $15 per hour? I am confused.

thanks,

Gideon
 

JohnDB

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If that is the case, why is it even an issue about the minimum wage going up to $15 per hour? I am confused.

thanks,

Gideon

The unintended consequences of raising the minimum wage.
Sure I understand about the benefits to other countries... somewhat.

But the increased costs is what is really going to put a pinch on those who can afford it the least...such as retirement centers and elderly care centers.

They pay a fixed amount from a fixed income. An increased cost for the services they require any is not doable for many of them.

Daycare also is another one of those areas that usually pays minimum wage. Again those costs are going to be passed in to young, working families. They are already struggling with daycare expenses. Single parent families are especially going to get shafted on this. There is usually a shortage of available daycares now.

The increased prices for food processing is also going to be detrimental to those nations we ship food to.
America may only have 330 million people but it feeds 5 Billion people in the world.

Yes, the tennis shoes will be a little cheaper...but not for long.
 

Cristo Rei

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I was wiring up a new miller plasma cutter...

That thing was sexy as all get out. I tried it out and man oh man can I get creative with that thing. Works nothing like the older models.
I heard their new mig welders are the same way...a whole group of electronics that takes all the craftsmanship voodoo and magic out of the game.
I learned on the huge units that were just an adjustable transformer and set of diodes.

Things have changed a lot.

Best plasma i ever used was a Lincoln... I forget exactly but it must of had at least 100, maybe 150 amps. One inch plate was so quick to cut

I learnt on the old pizza ovens as well. One of these Miller Synchrowaves... More reliable than inverters, u can run them hot, all day and their cheaper to service... They were the best TIG machines back then i reckon, heaps of features for its age...

Miller-Syncrowave-350-AC-DC-CC-Welder-with-Pulser.jpg

Its true that the new machines are full of electronics but i wouldn't say it takes all the skill away...

The trickiest part is adjusting the machine to suit the application.
An old MIG just has two knobs so its actually much easier to set up then a panel full of switches, buttons and/or knobs...

Once you have it set up then u could say that the machine does a lot of the work... Materials, welds and positions that were difficult such as Aluminum, uphill are much easier on new machines. They can do things that are impossible with old machines.

So on one hand i could set up a machine for anyone to use and he'll produce acceptable welds within 10 minutes
But on the other hand if i just put that guy on the job we will spend over 40 minutes tuning it in
 
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JohnDB

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Best plasma i ever used was a Lincoln... I forget exactly but it must of had at least 100, maybe 150 amps. One inch plate was so quick to cut

I learnt on the old pizza ovens as well. One of these Miller Synchrowaves... More reliable than inverters, u can run them hot, all day and their cheaper to service... They were the best TIG machines back then i reckon, heaps of features for its age...

View attachment 12561

Its true that the new machines are full of electronics but i wouldn't say it takes all the skill away...

The trickiest part is adjusting the machine to suit the application.
An old MIG just has two knobs so its actually much easier to set up then a panel full of switches, buttons and/or knobs...

Once you have it set up then u could say that the machine does a lot of the work... Materials, welds and positions that were difficult such as Aluminum, uphill are much easier on new machines. They can do things that are impossible with old machines.

So on one hand i could set up a machine for anyone to use and he'll produce acceptable welds within 10 minutes
But on the other hand if i just put that guy on the job we will spend over 40 minutes tuning it in

Some of the newer ones don't even have the settings you are talking about.
You set it for the type of metal you are welding and that's it...auto sensors do the rest.
And not that expensive either. I was amazed at how inexpensive the portables were anymore. The filler wire and gasses weren't cheap...but the unit itself was.
 

friend of

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I mean, on the plus side, it may help people struggling to make a living.
 

JohnDB

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I mean, on the plus side, it may help people struggling to make a living.
Maybe...
But the economy is very different than it was before when it would work...I'm not so sure that it will anymore.