What We Can Tell From Zechariah 14:1-5

guysmith said:

What we can tell from Zechariah 14:1-5

Verse 1 is a proclaimation of the impending DOTL.

1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.

Verse 2's description suggest that the DOTL hasn't yet started (The gathering of the nations to Jerusalem and the women being raped implies that the DOTL has yet to start) at that time. Half of the city will go into exile, which raises several questions:

A. Who are "the rest of the people will not be taken from the city?"
B. Since they are in Jerusalem before the DOTL, when did they get there?
C. Do they have the Mark-of-the-Beast / are they Christian? (If they have the MOTB or they aren't, then why does Christ come to fight for them ((verse 3))? Also, why would Christ give "flee" instructions if they have the MOTB or they are not Christian((verse 3))? )

2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

Verse 3 and 4 is a grand description of the advent of Christ which clarifies that the DOTL will have started at this time.

3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle.
4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

Verse 5 is very interesting. The "flee" instructions are obviously for "the rest of the people will not be taken from the city" which will still be in Jerusalem at the time when Christ returns with those who are in the first resurrection ("the holy ones with him").

5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

The conclusion that I draw from this is that there will individuals without the MOTB (Christians)in Jerusalem prior to the prior to the DOTL.

Guy

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DOTL.????

MOTB????


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

guysmith said:

What we can tell from Zechariah 14:1-5

Verse 1 is a proclaimation of the impending DOTL.

1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.

Verse 2's description suggest that the DOTL hasn't yet started (The gathering of the nations to Jerusalem and the women being raped implies that the DOTL has yet to start) at that time. Half of the city will go into exile, which raises several questions:

A. Who are "the rest of the people will not be taken from the city?"
B. Since they are in Jerusalem before the DOTL, when did they get there?
C. Do they have the Mark-of-the-Beast / are they Christian? (If they have the MOTB or they aren't, then why does Christ come to fight for them ((verse 3))? Also, why would Christ give "flee" instructions if they have the MOTB or they are not Christian((verse 3))? )

2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.

Verse 3 and 4 is a grand description of the advent of Christ which clarifies that the DOTL will have started at this time.

3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle.
4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

Verse 5 is very interesting. The "flee" instructions are obviously for "the rest of the people will not be taken from the city" which will still be in Jerusalem at the time when Christ returns with those who are in the first resurrection ("the holy ones with him").

5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

The conclusion that I draw from this is that there will individuals without the MOTB (Christians)in Jerusalem prior to the prior to the DOTL.

Guy

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Yes, I too agree there will be a group of Christ's servants still in Jerusalem at that event. But that doesn't mean we can preach for all Christians in the nations to travel there before Christ returns.

guysmith said:

veteran,

You stated: Yes, I too agree there will be a group of Christ's servants still in Jerusalem at that event.

My response: Does the Bible describe another specific place (such as Denver or Berlin) where Christians will be alive at Christ's advent? Think about it. These Christians will have survived the 3 1/2 years of the GT without taking the MOTB. I believe this could only happen through divine intervention, unless you have another suggestion.

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Yes there is Scripture evidence of Christians remaining outside Jerusalem. I've quoted the following Scripture to you several times before on this matter, but you keep failing to address it...

Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
(KJV)

You stated: But that doesn't mean we can preach for all Christians in the nations to travel there before Christ returns.

My response: Matthew 24:14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

All Christians in the nations are not going to respond. Only the 144,000 (males) out of millions/billions of professing Christians will show up.

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What? I don't know where you're getting that idea. Don't forget the second group in Rev.7:9 to the end of the chapter, which also goes with those of Rev.15 that are before Christ's throne, from every peoples and nation.

Here's another pointer...

Rev 5:8-10
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by Thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
(KJV)

What time are the rewards to Christ's saints, before the tribulation, during the tribulation? No, after the tribulation and after the day of The LORD, after His return. Likewise that's the time of His saints as priests and kings reigning on earth, i.e., Milennium time. Note those are redeemed out of every kindred, tongue, people, and nation. It's impossible to say that only means those in Jerusalem at the time of Christ's coming.

These Scriptures are about the gathering to Christ at His coming...

Isa 43:1-7
1 But now thus saith the LORD That created thee, O Jacob, and He That formed thee, O Israel, Fear not: for I have redeemed thee, I have called thee by thy name; thou art Mine.
2 When thou passest through the waters, I will be with thee; and through the rivers, they shall not overflow thee: when thou walkest through the fire, thou shalt not be burned; neither shall the flame kindle upon thee.
3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.
4 Since thou wast precious in My sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.
5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring My sons from far, and My daughters from the ends of the earth;
7 Even every one that is called by My name: for I have created him for My glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.
(KJV)

There's several OT witnesses to that gathering event on the last day.


Isa 49:10-13
10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for He That hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall He guide them.
11 And I will make all My mountains a way, and My highways shall be exalted.
12 Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.
13 Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the LORD hath comforted His people, and will have mercy upon His afflicted.
(KJV)

The coming tribulation is going to be an affliction upon Christ's saints in all nations. Jerusalem is simply going to be the seat of the beast in control over it in all other nations. But don't listen to the Hal LIndsay doomsdayers out there, for not all Christians will be killed. The main test of the tribulation will be against deception in falling to worship the false messiah instead of waiting on Christ's later return. Satan's host would not be successful in that scheme if he went around murdering all Christians.

You should be noticing today how there is a global Christian Church movement designed to align with the coming socialist one world government system. Already in Red China and Russia there is a state controlled Christian Church that if you want to be Christian there, you're required to attend their state controlled Church. Christ's enemies have not been able to destroy Christ's true believers on this earth, so Satan is taking another route by creating his own version of Christianity, and requiring all Christians to become part of it.

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/globalchurch.htm

guysmith said:

Verse 5 is very interesting. The "flee" instructions are obviously for "the rest of the people will not be taken from the city" which will still be in Jerusalem at the time when Christ returns with those who are in the first resurrection ("the holy ones with him").

5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

The conclusion that I draw from this is that there will individuals without the MOTB (Christians)in Jerusalem prior to the prior to the DOTL.

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Your conclusion is wrong because the version of Zechariah 14:5 above is a mistranslation. The correct translation is found in the Septuagint (LXX):


The reason there are two very different versions of Zechariah 14:5 is because a verb that appears three times in this verse can be pronounced two different ways, which results in two very different meanings (to block, or to flee). The Masoretic Text has the "to flee" pronunciation, whereas the LXX translator(s)) obviously translated based on the "to block" pronunciation. Why is the LXX version right, and the other wrong? Because there is a lot of evidence supporting the validity of the LXX pronunciation, and none supporting the Masoretic Text.

guysmith said:

veteran,

You stated: Yes, I too agree there will be a group of Christ's servants still in Jerusalem at that event.

You also stated: Yes there is Scripture evidence of Christians remaining outside Jerusalem. I've quoted the following Scripture to you several times before on this matter, but you keep failing to address it...

Luke 21:20-22
20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
(KJV)

My response: I am addressing it. This is really very simple. I'll put it to you in a question. How can you have all Christians flee from Jerusalem and still have Christians in Jerusalem. Either they are going to be there or they aren't. If they are going to be there, then Lukes understanding of what Christ stated (Luke 21:20-22) could be in question.

Guy

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Whoever said that "all Christians" would be in Jerusalem at that time? The Luke 21:21 verse is solid proof not all Christians will be there, but still in the countries.


Luke 21:21
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
(KJV)

Why are you disregarding what Christ said in that verse about "let NOT them that are in the countries enter thereinto"? Just because that word "not" is in the first part of the phrase instead of front of "enter" doesn't mean the reverse like you're trying to infer.

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Your conclusion is wrong because the version of Zechariah 14:5 above is a mistranslation. The correct translation is found in the Septuagint (LXX):

The valley between the hills will be filled in, yes, it will be blocked as far as Jasol, it will be filled in as it was by the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Zechariah 14:5, New Jerusalem Bible​

The reason there are two very different versions of Zechariah 14:5 is because a verb that appears three times in this verse can be pronounced two different ways, which results in two very different meanings (to block, or to flee). The Masoretic Text has the "to flee" pronunciation, whereas the LXX translator(s)) obviously translated based on the "to block" pronunciation. Why is the LXX version right, and the other wrong? Because there is a lot of evidence supporting the validity of the LXX pronunciation, and none supporting the Masoretic Text.

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That still does not change the meaning in Zech.14:4 about the cleaving of the Mount of Olives to form a valley running east to west. The Septuagint has that same event as the Masoretic text does.

Christ's feet touch down there, which is what causes the forming of that great valley. The fleeing to it idea is more than a probability, since that event is to initiate the gathering to Christ with the saints He brings with Him. It specifically involves the "caught up" event for those in Christ still alive on earth there, and those still in the countries outside Jerusalem.

veteran said:

That still does not change the meaning in Zech.14:4 about the cleaving of the Mount of Olives to form a valley running east to west. The Septuagint has that same event as the Masoretic text does.

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Well it actually does change 14:4 because:

(1) the verb that is usually translated split or cleave, can also be translated rend or tear apart. This correlates perfectly with Josephus' account of the landslide in Uzziah's day tearing apart from the Mount of Olives;

(2) the landslide tore apart from the Mount of Olives' eastern half. The Hebrew in 14:4 literally says: “the mountain of olives will tear apart from his eastward half”

(3) the LXX has the word chaos (χαος) instead of valley. The translators could have easily used a Greek word for valley, but didn't. There is a reason for this;

(4) there is photographic evidence that the summit of the Mount of Olives where this landslide occurred has northward and southward aspects. Photos show large volumes of landslide rubble at the base of the mountain. That material was once at the top of the mountain. Therefore, we don't know how pronounced this northward/southward landform was in Zechariah's day.

So the idea of the Mount of Olives splitting into a large valley and moving north and south is not required. In fact, the idea of fleeing through a large valley is a ridiculous idea. There is already a road running through the middle of the mountain. It would be much easier to flee across a paved road than a rock-strewn chasm. This idea is a throwback to a distant time when someone tried to enhance Zechariah's prophecy with the Mosaic theme of people fleeing though the split Red Sea. All it takes is slight pronunciation change of a word to get this affect.

veteran said:

Christ's feet touch down there, which is what causes the forming of that great valley. The fleeing to it idea is more than a probability, since that event is to initiate the gathering to Christ with the saints He brings with Him. It specifically involves the "caught up" event for those in Christ still alive on earth there, and those still in the countries outside Jerusalem.

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Christ's feet "touched down there" nearly 2000 years ago. Paul said that the holy ones were to meet Christ in the air, not on the ground, much less the Mount of Olives. In fact the bible doesn't say anywhere that Christ will return to the Mount of Olives (unless of course one reads that into the text).

I forgot to mention that the Israelis have identifed Azal mentioned in Zechariah 14:5, to which the valley in the Mount of Olives is to supposedly extend. Unfortunately for that narrative, Azal lies due south of both Jerusalem and the Mount of Olives. That fact alone completely undermines the story of people fleeing east through the Mount of Olives to Azal.

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

So the idea of the Mount of Olives splitting into a large valley and moving north and south is not required. In fact, the idea of fleeing through a large valley is a ridiculous idea. There is already a road running through the middle of the mountain. It would be much easier to flee across a paved road than a rock-strewn chasm. This idea is a throwback to a distant time when someone tried to enhance Zechariah's prophecy with the Mosaic theme of people fleeing though the split Red Sea. All it takes is slight pronunciation change of a word to get this affect.

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Ah, so now we see the real purpose why some deny the Zechariah 14:1-5 events as written. Your short trek to the Septuagint isn't enough to declare the Masoretic texts inaccurate on this matter.

Here's it is folks, just below, showing what HRFTD was trying to infer all along...

Christ's feet "touched down there" nearly 2000 years ago. Paul said that the holy ones were to meet Christ in the air, not on the ground, much less the Mount of Olives. In fact the bible doesn't say anywhere that Christ will return to the Mount of Olives (unless of course one reads that into the text).

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Acts 1:9-12
9 And when He had spoken these things, while they beheld, He was taken up; and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven."
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.
(KJV)

HRFTD's attempt to dislodge the Zech.14 prophecy of HOW Christ's SECOND COMING will occur has been weighed and measured, and found lacking.

veteran said:

HRFTD's attempt to dislodge the Zech.14 prophecy of HOW Christ's SECOND COMING will occur has been weighed and measured, and found lacking.

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Acts 1:9-12 only states that Christ will return in the same manner he ascended, i.e. in clouds (cf. Revelation 1:7). It says nothing about where he will return. You are simply reading a return to the Mount of Olives into the text based on the needs of the narrative. I repeat, without reading it into the text, there is no verse in the bible that says Christ will return to the Mount of Olives. It is merely an assumption.

veteran said:

Your short trek to the Septuagint isn't enough to declare the Masoretic texts inaccurate on this matter.

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That's not even close to the truth. I have a mountain of evidence that the LXX is correct. What evidence do you have that the Masoretic Text version is correct?

Would you care to comment on my last post before this that indicates the location of Azal as identified by the Israelis completely destroys the fleeing-east-through-the-Mount-of-Olives-to-Azal narrative?

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Acts 1:9-12 only states that Christ will return in the same manner he ascended, i.e. in clouds (cf. Revelation 1:7). It says nothing about where he will return. You are simply reading a return to the Mount of Olives into the text based on the needs of the narrative. I repeat, without reading it into the text, there is no verse in the bible that says Christ will return to the Mount of Olives. It is merely an assumption.

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Maybe for those like yourself, you need some other... Scripture to plainly say, 'Jesus will return back to the Mount Olives where He ascended to Heaven from.'? Well, I declare it then. It's called the Zechariah 14 Scripture for one. Acts 1 is pointing to that very truth.

But oh yeah, you've been caught trying to say the Zech.14 Scripture already... happened, back at Christ's FIRST coming! And that idea is of course a falsehood per the Zech.14 Scripture, including per the Septuagint version of Zech.14!

That's not even close to the truth. I have a mountain of evidence that the LXX is correct. What evidence do you have that the Masoretic Text version is correct?

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Because the KJV from the Masoretic text declares the event of where Christ Jesus returns according to all other Scripture examples, which is Jerusalem on earth.


Zech 9:9-10
9 Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass.
10 And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem, and the battle bow shall be cut off: and he shall speak peace unto the heathen: and his dominion shall be from sea even to sea, and from the river even to the ends of the earth.
(KJV)

Verse 9 = Christ's first coming to die on the cross; verse 10 = Christ's second coming per Revelation to rule with a rod of iron.


Ps 2:6-9
6 Yet have I set My king upon My holy hill of Zion.
7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art My Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of Me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
(KJV)

That's the time of Christ's Millennium reign of Rev.20 over all nations, FROM.. Mount Zion in Jerusalem on earth.



Ps 50:2-5
2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God hath shined.
3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before Him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about Him.
4 He shall call to the heavens from above, and to the earth, that He may judge His people.
5 Gather My saints together unto Me; those that have made a covenant with Me by sacrifice.
(KJV)


Zech 14:5
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
(KJV)

Christ's return to the Mount of Olives, with His saints from Heaven. The Rev.19 and Ezek.39 events.


Isa 40:9-10
9 O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings, lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!
10 Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and His arm shall rule for Him: behold, His reward is with Him, and His work before Him.
(KJV)

Upon the high mountain of where? Of Jerusalem.


Ps 110:1-2
1 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at My right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2 The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
(KJV)

The time of Christ's de facto reign on earth from Mount Zion in Jerusalem, reigning over His enemies with a rod of iron.



Rev 20:4
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(KJV)

The elect saints will not just rule with Jesus, but live... with Him, which points to His being on earth at Jerusalem in that time.

Would you care to comment on my last post before this that indicates the location of Azal as identified by the Israelis completely destroys the fleeing-east-through-the-Mount-of-Olives-to-Azal narrative?

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The only time the Mount of Olives will see that kind of literal destruction will be with Christ's second coming there, as written in Zechariah 14. It won't be something that man will be able to do.

Well I understand that's how you see it, Would you like to comment on the fact that the Israelis have identified the location of Azal that completely invalidates the fleeing-east-through-the-Mount-of-Olives-to-Azal narrative?

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Well I understand that's how you see it, Would you like to comment on the fact that the Israelis have identified the location of Azal that completely invalidates the fleeing-east-through-the-Mount-of-Olives-to-Azal narrative?

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You mean orthodox Jews? Those who still refuse Christ Jesus as God's Promised Saviour? Some of them have once claimed having found the ark of the covenant also, and they depend upon the building of another temple in Jerusalem for their salvation, so why should a believing Christian not take what they would say about the location of Azal with a grain of salt?

veteran said:

You mean orthodox Jews? Those who still refuse Christ Jesus as God's Promised Saviour? Some of them have once claimed having found the ark of the covenant also, and they depend upon the building of another temple in Jerusalem for their salvation, so why should a believing Christian not take what they would say about the location of Azal with a grain of salt?

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No, I'm not talking about orthodox Jews. Do you even want to know the truth? Or is this just all a game so you won't have to examine your beliefs?

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

No, I'm not talking about orthodox Jews. Do you even want to know the truth? Or is this just all a game so you won't have to examine your beliefs?

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Why should a Bible-believing Christian like myself heed what you say, since you've already revealed your false belief that the Zechariah 14 event of Christ's future coming was already history back 2,000 years ago? You made your own false bed, and need to sleep in it for a while until you repent. Otherwise, you aren't to be trusted with The Scriptures.