Who Is It That Jesus Baptizes?

whirlwind said:

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and His disciples into the land of Judaea; and there He tarried with them, and baptized.
Who are those He baptized/baptizes? Those that were "with them," His disciples, those that follow Him both in that time and today4:1-3 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus Himself baptized not, but His disciples,) He left Judaea, and departed again into Galilee. The only ones Jesus baptizes are "His disciples." It is easier understood if the above comma wasn't placed in the sentence highlighted in blue and is read...."Jesus Himself baptized not but His disciples," for that is what is being said. He only baptizes His disciples. John the Baptist said to Jesus when He presented Himself to be baptized.... Matthew 3:14-15 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest Thou to me? And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered Him. John was right. He, as a disciple of Christ, was one that could be baptized by the Savior. But, the time wasn't right. At that time the dove had not yet descended. It was after that event that Jesus "baptized His disciples," with the Holy Spirit and fire.
Again, John said....
Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire
So there are two types of baptism. That of John...water baptism/unto repentance and that of Jesus Christ...of the Holy Spirit and fire.Acts 19:3-5 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on Him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ
They are His disciples for only His disciples are baptized by Christ.

Click to expand...

Impressive study whirlwind. It is interesting how a little comma placed where it shouldn't be can ruin a good thing. I enjoyed this alot.
fivesense

Here is another example of where to place a comma.

[sup]43[/sup] And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

[sup]43[/sup] And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”

bud02 said:

Here is another example of where to place a comma.

[sup]43[/sup] And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”

[sup]43[/sup] And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”

Click to expand...

With your expertise in Scripture and the languages, tell me, which is it?

Paul said:

With your expertise in Scripture and the languages, tell me, which is it?

Click to expand...

Im don't claim to be an expert myself, but in cases like this and others I have to search for verses that ether support or disprove it. Scripture does not contradict its self. If in your mind it does there is something the Lord wishes to teach you.
Next I look for strongs definitions, then if need be I will search for people that are experts in Greek ect.

The disagreement still goes on for many people. One point is, does paradise mean heaven?
Second It is clear that Jesus did not go to heaven or the Fathers presents that day. He told Mary not to cling to Him 3 days after He arose, because He had not accened to the Father yet, So for me that settles that part of the interpretation. In my mind this leave the 2 compartment "Abraham's bossism" in the parable of the rich man and Lazareth. Was this the holding place for those that were God had already chosen like David Jacob ect. The place they rested until Jesus rescued them from death? This brings us back to the question of soul sleep or a state of awareness outside our bodies.

But as some linguist say the phrase " I say to you this day," comma,,, is very common in the original language, Jesus is recorded to have used this phrase in other places.

Its an important verse, simply because it is used often as evidence of going immediately into the presents of the Lord at death. The old testament indicates sleep, 2 thes says the dead shall rise first. The only other event in our bibles that had more impact on every human besides Jesus rising and being seated at the right hand of the Father, is Adam and Eves fall. Sleep in the old testament I can understand. It would be impossible for God the Father to justify or over ride death. There was not yet the perfect atonement., Jesus confirmed this by asking that this cup be taken from Him if any way else excised. If God could have brought people into His presants pre Jesus, the Jesus never needed to come. I' not saying God could not do it, but He has very high standers for Himself as well.

I hope I have given you something to ponder. You can now understand my concerns about interpreting Danial 9:27 as the antichrist or Jesus Christ as Tim Lahaye and other 7 year trib theologians do. A simple comma can change the whole meaning let alone supplementing the AC for Jesus.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

As I mentioned to you in the other thread Matthew Henry is also one of my first choices, simply because in 1708, when he releast his work, he had not been contaminated with all the interpretations available today. He started his work shortly after the reformation. Very little was written before that time, I place the previous writings as the bible its self, and any interpretations were exclusively the catholic church. If you want the commentary from the deaths of the Apostles to say 1530s simply study the catholic church. If you want commentary from Martin Luther to today start with Matthew Henry and work forward.

Like I said in Rev 12 the woman "church" fled into the wilderness for 1260 years not days. you do the math. year 1530 from - 1260 years makes it about 370 AD when did Rome fall? The only vestige of Rome to survive was the catholic church, she inherited the Roma empire. Just some more things to consider.

If you do sum home work you will find that in 537 AD after the wars from the vandals and the other 9 parts of the old empire were over that 3 were over come and The Pope / leader of what was left of Rome received a letter from the eastern leg of Rome / Constantinople giving all authority to the Pope. 1260 years latter 1798 Napoleon's general Berthier removed Pope Pius VII. ending the consecutive line of Popes.

The second article concentrates on the Justinian date when, after the Ostrogothic withdrawal to Ravenna, the army of Belisarius approached Rome, which opened its gates to the Roman general in December, 537; tracing the transfer of the Roman emperor to Constantinople, and then the shift of the Goths to Ravenna, the pope is left, "as it were, the governor and principal at Rome.

1798 Berthier came to the capitol escorted by a military band, received the acclaim of the great concourse, and gave formal recognition to the Roman Republic and its provisional government.[19] He then ordered the papal arms and insignia everywhere removed. Thus the change was effected without bloodshed. Later when the Sacred Congregation of Propaganda was suppressed, their College at Rome was closed and the building used as a warehouse for confiscated property, and their printing presses and type were sent to France.[20] Vatican Palace was stripped of its valuables, and the sacerdotal vestments of the pontifical chapels were burned for the gold and silver of the embroidery.

Rev 13: [sup]1[/sup] Then I[sup][a][/sup] stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns,[sup][b][/sup] and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. [sup]2[/sup] Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. [sup]3[/sup] And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. [sup]4[/sup] So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”
[sup]5[/sup] And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue[sup][c][/sup] for forty-two months. [sup]6[/sup] Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. [sup]7[/sup] It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe,[sup][d][/sup] tongue, and nation. [sup]8[/sup] All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
[sup]9[/sup] If anyone has an ear, let him hear. [sup]10[/sup] He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

I have to leave now, but as you can see the dragon from chapter 12 gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 1798 a deadly wound,
Verse 5 goes into greater detail about the beast from the sea, and his 42 month rage.

bud02 said:

Im don't claim to be an expert myself, ... Just some more things to consider.

Click to expand...

Well, we are not going to agree. so be it!

Paul said:

With your expertise in Scripture and the languages, tell me, which is it?

Click to expand...

It would be the first one. The good thief who repented was dying on the cross. Jesus is a merciful God. He is not going to say to a dying man, "I say this to you today, you will be with me in Paradise" meaning that He is saying this only on this day, that the good thief will die and his soul will enter Paradise" in the future." There is no mercy or consolation to the good thief who is dying on the cross to know that Jesus is only saying those words today (and not tomorrow or the next day).

Jesus said, "I say this to you, TODAY you will be with me in Paradise." Our destiny is to be with Christ. When Jesus died, His soul entered Paradise (Luke 23:43) and the soul of the good thief was with Him just as Jesus said for His words are Truth. Jesus' soul did not just stay dead or immobile once His body died. Therefore, Jesus' soul entered Paradise and the soul of the good thief was with him just as He promised him.

Also, Paradise is not Heaven. It is the same place as "Abraham's bosom" that Jesus spoke about in Luke 16:22. Jesus did not enter Heaven until after His resurrection. After entering Paradise, Jesus then entered Hades to preach the Gospel (Rom. 10:7; Acts 2:27; 1 Pet. 3:19-20). After Christ's resurrection, the gates of Heaven were now open to mankind and those who were held captives in the netherworld and who believed in Him were able to go into Heaven to be with Christ (Epehsians 4:8).

In Christ,
Selene

Selene said:

It would be the first one. The good thief who repented was dying on the cross. Jesus is a merciful God. He is not going to say to a dying man, "I say this to you today, you will be with me in Paradise" meaning that He is saying this only on this day, that the good thief will die and his soul will enter Paradise" in the future." There is no mercy or consolation to the good thief who is dying on the cross to know that Jesus is only saying those words today (and not tomorrow or the next day).

Jesus said, "I say this to you, TODAY you will be with me in Paradise." Our destiny is to be with Christ. When Jesus died, His soul entered Paradise (Luke 23:43) and the soul of the good thief was with Him just as Jesus said for His words are Truth. Jesus' soul did not just stay dead or immobile once His body died. Therefore, Jesus' soul entered Paradise and the soul of the good thief was with him just as He promised him.

Also, Paradise is not Heaven. It is the same place as "Abraham's bosom" that Jesus spoke about in Luke 16:22. Jesus did not enter Heaven until after His resurrection. After entering Paradise, Jesus then entered Hades to preach the Gospel (Rom. 10:7; Acts 2:27; 1 Pet. 3:19-20). After Christ's resurrection, the gates of Heaven were now open to mankind and those who were held captives in the netherworld and who believed in Him were able to go into Heaven to be with Christ (Epehsians 4:8).

In Christ,
Selene

Click to expand...

All I can say is I need a bit more meat on the bone before I am willing to make a decision like yours.
Rom 10:7 is not considering what Paul is speaking of faith, it in my opinion is taking a statement in one context to satisfy another.
1 Peter is similar and he says to the spirits in prison, and then goes on to indicate that these were formerly disobedient, "in the days of Noah".
Acts 2 is echoing David but does not indicate when this takes place. We all know that those in the Lord will be resurrected to Him the question is when?
Eph 4 is also Davids Psalm, which says He ascended on high which begs the distinction paradise vs heaven. This does not support your paradise before heaven interpretation.

And of course this whole conversation rest very much on the fact or parable of the rich man and Lazareth. Nor does it indicate when.

But If you find it satisfactory then so be it. One more consideration is the fact that Jesus says that the rich man was suffering, this would indicate judgment.
Did the judgment of the dead happen at the cross? Like I said upon careful examination I can not agree with you. Also in the same vein is eternal suffering or are those who are not chosen simply no more? In that camp I am with the latter. Surly the day you eat of it you will die, not you will surly suffer in hell tormented forever.

bud02 said:

All I can say is I need a bit more meat on the bone before I am willing to make a decision like yours.
Rom 10:7 is not considering what Paul is speaking of faith, it in my opinion is taking a statement in one context to satisfy another.
1 Peter is similar and he says to the spirits in prison, and then goes on to indicate that these were formerly disobedient, "in the days of Noah".
Acts 2 is echoing David but does not indicate when this takes place. We all know that those in the Lord will be resurrected to Him the question is when?
Eph 4 is also Davids Psalm, which says He ascended on high which begs the distinction paradise vs heaven. This does not support your paradise before heaven interpretation.

And of course this whole conversation rest very much on the fact or parable of the rich man and Lazareth. Nor does it indicate when.

But If you find it satisfactory then so be it. One more consideration is the fact that Jesus says that the rich man was suffering, this would indicate judgment.
Did the judgment of the dead happen at the cross? Like I said upon careful examination I can not agree with you. Also in the same vein is eternal suffering or are those who are not chosen simply no more? In that camp I am with the latter. Surly the day you eat of it you will die, not you will surly suffer in hell tormented forever.

Click to expand...

1 Peter says that Christ went to those in prison and yes, these were the ones who were disobedient to God. A person who was disobedient to God is not going to be in paradise with Abraham, who is faithful and obedient to God. Christ went to these disobedient ones to preach the Gospel to them. Before Christ's resurrection, no one entered Heaven (See John 3:13). This explains Jesus' parable about Lazarus being in Abraham's bosom. Jesus did not say that Lazarus was in Heaven or God's kingdom because Jesus did say that no man has ascended into Heaven. When Adam and Eve sinned, the gates of Heaven was closed to mankind. No man could enter Heaven until Christ conquered death,

As for Acts 2, it says: For David himself never went up to Heaven, and yet these words are his: The Lord said to my Lord; Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for you.

When David died, he never went to Heaven because the gates of Heaven was closed to all mankind until Christ's coming when the enemy is made a footstool. Hebrews 11, this explains what happened to those who were faithful to God before and after Christ's resurrection.

Hebrews 11:40 These are all heros of faith, but they did not receive what was promised, since God had made provisions for us to have something better, and they were not reach perfection except with us.

'Abraham, Jacob, Moses, and even David was mentioned in Hebrews 11....all these heros of faith did not receive what was promised until after Christ's resurection. God made provisions for all of us (including those who died in the past) to have something much better....and that was Christ Jesus who died for the sins of all mankind....in the past, present, and future. Although Christ died 2000 years ago, his death and resurrection brought us redemption. In the same way, those who died in the past before Christ also saw redemption because the enemy was now made a footstool. Death was conquered and man can enter the Kingdom of God.

In Christ,
Selene