The Last Trumpet Is Not The Seventh Trumpet.

teleiosis · Sep 7, 2010

Here, logically from Scripture, is why the Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath.

1. The Last Trumpet calls the Dead forth from Paradise (the ends of Heaven).

1Co 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

2. That happens on the Day of the Lord as Paul identifies it.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

2TH 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

On the Day of the Lord we will see the Dead in Christ rise first and then we who are still alive and are left will be caught up with them on the clouds. So we have two markers here which identify when Jesus is coming for us.

The gathering of Saints is on the Day of the Lord.
Jesus is on the clouds when He gathers those who are still alive and are left off the earth.

3. The Day of the Lord is when Jesus comes to get us. The Day of the Lord is identified by its signature Sun/moon/star sign:

MT 24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days
" `the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

MT 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Jesus uses the Sun/moon/star event from prophecy to identify the Day when He comes on the clouds to gather the Elect - just like Paul says in 1Th 4:16-17 which directly relates back to 1Co 15:52.

4. The specific and unique signature sign heralding the Day of the Lord is also revealed by Jesus to John for the sequence of the Day of the Lord in the Seal/Scroll vision given to John:

Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Therefore, we can conclude that Day of the Lord happens at the breaking of the sixth Seal.

The Day of the Lord is when we are gathered up as Paul said in Second Thessalonians.
Jesus said that after the Day of the Lord sign comes, the Elect will be gathered.
Therefore, in the Seal/Scroll account of Revelation chapters 4-11, the Great Multitude are the result of that gathering Harvest of Saints out of the then-shortened time of the Great Tribulation.
This claim is buttressed by the eyewitness testimony of an Elder who says the Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation, which echoes exactly the order Jesus gave in the Olivet Discourse.

The Day of the Lord happens before ANY of the Trumpet Judgments go forth.

Only after the sixth Seal is broken is the seventh Seal broken.
Then, and only then, when all the Seals have been broken, can the Scroll, where “desolations have been decreed” from 2500 years ago (Dan 9:26), be read, and only then does the First Trumpet of seven even sound.
And then, and only then, do we see “desolations” of Biblical proportions inflicted upon creation which in turn creates hardship for the wicked left upon the earth.

The Church is not to endure these conditions; God's Wrath is only for the wicked tares left behing in the field of this world after we're led together into the barn of Heaven from the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13:

Rom 2:8 But for those who are self–seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile

Rom 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

1Th 1:10 …and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead —Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

1Th 5:8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self–controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

The Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet; it comes before the first Trumpet is even blown.
This preserves exactly the example of the Last Trumpet being the first trumpet to announce the Festival of Trumpets which is Rosh ha-Shanah.

The Bible never labels the seventh Trumpet as the Last Trumpet.
Instead, the “Last Trumpet,” as a named trumpet, is associated with the opening of Rosh ha-Shanah, the fall time Holy Day also known as the Festival of Trumpets.
It is the first of many different trumpet soundings which occur over the next two days of this special Holy “Day” observance.
The “Last Trumpet” in Jewish ritual observance, of which Paul was schooled and practiced, is the mirror horn from the blowing of the “First Trumpet” sounded at the Festival of First Fruits in the spring.

___________________________________________________________________

The Last Trumpet in end-time prophecy happens after:

The one ‘seven’ starts
The first half oppression
The midpoint abomination(s)
The Great Tribulation

The Last Trumpet sounds on:

The Day of the Lord

The Last Trumpet happens before:

Any of God’s Wrath goes forth which begins with fire (and the resultant smoke) on the Day of the Lord (second half) – first Trumpet
The rest of the Trumpet Judgments (which take time)
The final Bowl Judgments (which are the third Woe which is never delineated in the Seal chronology) which complete the one ‘seven’ as per Daniel 9:27.

Mark

Paul · Sep 7, 2010

teleiosis said:
Here, logically from Scripture, is why the Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath.

...

So in your thinking there are multiple sets of trumps?

teleiosis · Sep 7, 2010

Paul said:
So in your thinking there are multiple sets of trumps?

No, didn't say that per se, however, there are different kinds of trumpets in the Bible and they serve different purposes.

When Paul is speaking of the Last Trumpet in 1Co 15, he is naming a named trumpet. It is my belief that Paul is indicating that the Fall Festivals will be a template of things to come; he says this outright in Col 2:16-17

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Besides the trumpets which sound God's Wrath there are the festival trumpets. There are also trumpets which sound for alarm, and other blasts for battle. Trumpets are used to begin festivities, and are sounded with to call either the leaders to assembly, or the whole community. Nowadays, we use trumpets to also herald our leaders arrival.

Some examples of where the Jewish ritual trumpets come from in Scripture:

Lev 23:23 The Lord said to Moses, 24 “Say to the Israelites: ‘On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a day of rest, a sacred assembly commemorated with trumpet blasts.

This verse in Leviticus is the basis for Rosh ha-Shanah.

Num 10:8 “The sons of Aaron, the priests, are to blow the trumpets. This is to be a lasting ordinance for you and the generations to come. 9 When you go into battle in your own land against an enemy who is oppressing you, sound a blast on the trumpets. Then you will be remembered by the Lord your God and rescued from your enemies. 10 Also at your times of rejoicing—your appointed feasts and New Moon festivals —you are to sound the trumpets over your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, and they will be a memorial for you before your God. I am the Lord your God. ”

The last verse would cover the Festival of First Fruits.

The First Trump is made from the left horn of the Akedah ram. The corresponding Last Trump is made from the right horn of the same Akedah ram. They are mirror images of each other. That is how it is done; it's just a fact.

What is interesting for us is that the Church Age began with the First Trump and Paul indicates the Church Age will end with the Last Trump. To me, he is pointing to the opposite Festivals as a template for the end-times, and the Last Trump is the first trumpet to sound at the Festival of Trumpets which has many varied trumpets blasting both short and long bursts over two days whcih is all one Holy Day.

This Holy Day begun by the Last Trump is Rosh ha-Shanah and a nickname for it in Jewish lore is the Returning Anew as it also marks the arrival of a new year, albeit in the seventh month. I don't think this name is just a coincidence for marking Jesus' parousia. I think Paul is pointing to it when he says we will be lifted up at the Last Trump because this is when Jesus returns as well.

Mark

veteran · Sep 8, 2010

There's a big problem with the Revelation and trumpet timing you've declared teleiosis. You're looking at the events in Revelation as if their events are in perfect chronological order, i.e., like the events of chapter 1 happen, then the events of chapter 2 happen next, etc., etc.

Not all Revelation chapter events happen in the exact order John was given to write them down. If interpreted in chronological order per its written layout, it would mean Christ's cup of wrath poured out upon the wicked happens more than once, for..., at Rev.6:17 on the sixth seal, and Rev.11:18 at the 7th trumpet and Rev.16:19 with the 7th vial shows His wrath upon the wicked. Rev.19 also shows Christ's coming and the time of His wrath. That would make it 4 times between Rev.6 and Rev.19 there is given a time of His wrath. Yet there is only ONE time of His cup of wrath upon the wicked on the day of The LORD, not several. So which is the time of His wrath, Rev.6, Rev.11, Rev.16, or Rev.19?

The answer is: all of them are about the singular event of Christ's wrath poured out upon the wicked at the time of His return. That's the greater picture being given.

Rev 10:7
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.
(KJV)

Rev 16:17
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."
(KJV)

In one example John is told when the 7th trumpet sounds, the mystery for this present world which God declared through His prophets should be finished.

In the other, "it is done" on the 7th vial.

In the Rev.6 sixth seal example, that being finished is also shown there. And then on the 7th seal there is silence for half an hour.

There's another time marker given we need to heed...

Before the Seals: lightnings, thunderings, voices
Rev 4:5
5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
(KJV)

After the Seals; Before the trumpets: voices, thunderings, lightnings, earthquake
Rev 8:5
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
(KJV)

After the Trumpets: lightning, voices, thunderings, earthquake, great hail
Rev 11:19
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in His temple the ark of His testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
(KJV)

After the Vials: voices, thunders, lightnings, great earthquake, great hail (Rev.16:21 verse)
Rev 16:17-18
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, "It is done."
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
(KJV)

Rev 16:21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
(KJV)

End of the Seals: earthquake, Christ's wrath - (Rev.6:17)
End of the Trumpets: earthquake, great hail, Christ's wrath - (Rev.11:18)
End of the Vials: earthquake, great hail, Christ's wrath - (Rev.16:19)

Now how in the world can those events happen at the end of the Seals and mean gathering to Christ timing, and not also mean the same thing at the end of the Trumpets and Vials also?

It's because the 6th-7th Seals, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial are ALL the SAME TIMING; the timing of Christ's coming and gathering of His saints, and the pouring out of His wrath upon the wicked (777).

Vincent · Sep 8, 2010

First of all. I absolutely love this. I totally appreciate the way you both have meticulously detailed your arguments. It's very analytical. Both your studies are very good and somewhere in both of those is the truth we all seek. I believe there is room here for both of you to be absolutely correct on your main points. I don't have the time right now but I will definitely come back to this thread to chime in later.

teleiosis · Sep 8, 2010

veteran said:
You're looking at the events in Revelation as if their events are in perfect chronological order, i.e., like the events of chapter 1 happen, then the events of chapter 2 happen next, etc., etc.

Not at all.

You cannot read the book of Revelation like a novel.
The reason why is that while it contains linear narratives (visions) it is not wholly linear; that is, it is composed of several different, and oft times, overlapping visions. When one author does this it is called parallel construction, or parallel accounts.

Parallel accounts are used in the Bible to describe one event from two different angles. Usually, we can find a broad linear overview, and then with just a second single parallel account, we find a more detailed linear narrative which explains a period or event of great interest to us. This is exactly what happens in the first three chapters of Genesis with the "two" creation accounts. There are not two different creations to the world, but a broad overview from a cosmic perspective, and then a more detailed earthly account concerning the creation of Adam and the relationship God has with him, the creation of woman with Eve, and the basis for the Fall which establishes our need for a Savior, and indeed, contains the first prophecy concerning Jesus. The name of God shifts accordingly from Elohim to Yahweh (or Jehovah, as some scholars term the difference: the E and J accounts).

veteran said:
Not all Revelation chapter events happen in the exact order John was given to write them down.

Parallel accounts are linear within their selves; that is the nature of Biblical narratives, they progress linearly in time: this happens, and then that happens and so on in order of their occurrence. Most of the Bible is composed of linear narratives like the historic section of the Old Testament. Likewise, the major books, passages and accounts I and other commentators and scholars use to determine end-time eschatology are also linear narratives, like the Olivet Discourse, which also employs parallel construction in its telling; Jesus gets to the 'end' in Mt 24:14 from a broad overview, and then shifts back to the midpoint to inform us of a very important time in the Church Age: it's detailed end in verse 31.

When a specific and unique event is repeated, and you're confused because things now seem 'out of order,' it is probably because you're reading two parallel accounts back to back as one narrative. Repeated specific and unique events, like one half of the one 'seven' and the end of the one 'seven' are repeated multiple times in the book of Revelation. There are five distinct mentions of one half of the one 'seven' in just three chapters. On this basis, we can know that chapters 11, 12 and possibly 13 are in separate parallel accounts. The repetition of the same half in chapter 12 tells us that chapter is split into two twin accounts to contain the same half. Likewise, there are three one 'seven' ending earthquakes; 11:13, 11:19, and 16:18-20, plus a fourth additional end of the one 'seven' with the final battle at Armageddon in chapter 19's end, but without mention of the earth-changing earthquake which sets up the total earth's topography for the Millennium.

Parallel accounts are used in epic movies like Lord of the Rings to cover diverse action which happens simultaneously. We know we're shifting from one venue to the next when there is a change of scene and focus, yet while the movie moves sequentially, we "know" we're looking at simultaneous action. Likewise, I use this tool to discern when John shifts his storytelling to another parallel account. An important aspect so as to eliminate spurious divisions in the book of Revelation is that both scene and focus must change at the same time.

Ch 1: Greetings / initial vision
Ch 2 & 3: The seven Church types
Ch 4 to 11: The Seal/Scroll chronology. This is serves as the major overview of the end times to the end of the one 'seven.' (It is exclusive of the following.)
Ch 11:1-13: The sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses. (Two halves of the one 'seven' plus its end)
Ch 12 - Twin accounts (which cover similar gaps in time from the time of the first Advent to the same half of the one 'seven' mentioned twice)
- 12:1-6: The Woman Israel
- 12:7-17 The Serpent
Ch 13 to 16 (inclusive): The one 'seven.' A more detailed account. (One half of the one 'seven' mentioned, and the end of the one 'seven' a third time)
Ch 17 & 18: Explanatory chapters which reveal the literal interpretation of figurative speech (not true linear narratives)
Ch 19 to the end of 22: A linear account from just before the end of the one 'seven' at the battle of Armageddon through the Millennium and into the New Earth and New Heavens, i.e. Sunday... as Genesis 2:3 left us at Saturday, the seventh day in which God rested.

I am not the only scholar to note the use of parallel construction and parallel accounts in the Bible, and others divide the Book of Revelation to suit their needs... I just needed an objective tool in which to discern when to properly break the book apart. This took a lot of time on my part over many weeks and months. I don't remember how long exactly, that was some years ago now, but I do remember struggling with it. Once I applied the rule: change of scene and focus though, the division of accounts became not only clear, but the action then made for logical sense.

In parallel accounts, one can find a linear narrative. This is the second rule of the Bible I go by (the first is that it is true!): the Bible is linear in its narratives: it tells a story as a timeline; this happens and then that happens.

Major books/passages which contain linear narratives concerning the end-times:

Daniel ch 2
Daniel ch 7 (three parallel accounts: vision, inquiry, and explanation)
Daniel 9:24-27 (parallel construction evident between verse 26's 'end' and verse 27)
Daniel 11:31-12:1
The Olivet Discourse of Mt 24:4-31 (with parallel construction between verses 4-14 and 15-31)
1Th 4 (with added information about the nature of the resurrection/rapture in 1Co 15)
2Th 2
The book of Revelation as I have detailed above.

Some notable major and minor Old Testament Prophets that intersperse prophetic visions are Isaiah and Zechariah.

Mark

teleiosis · Sep 8, 2010

Veteran: From what little I know of your eschatology, I'm guessing you're a "last day" adherent. I am too. We just define "last day" a little differently... For instance, I know from what Jesus said that I can never know when the "last day" - when Jesus comes to rescue us- will come! Furthermore, not even Jesus knows when the Day of the Lord will come! And if He's alright with that, I can be too. So one thing I think we can preclude as ever being Biblically correct is any eschatology which attempts to pin the Rapture to the last day of the one 'seven' then goes against the fact that no one can possibly know which day that Day comes because by the last day of the one 'seven,' there will be no other day from which to choose! So as a logical person, I can't hold that reasoning in place in my head because it is invalidated by what Jesus said in Mt 24:36.

I think you arrange the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowl Judgments like this:

Now I could be wrong, but this was taken from a Post-Trib "Last Day" website and it is much like other classical 19th century Post-Trib adherent's eschatology. You can correct me if I'm wrong about your way of thinking, and I'm sure you will - but do you have any comment specifically about the reasoning I presented in the original post?

I think the "last day" is whenever the end of the Church Age comes with the Day of the Lord. After that, there is no message of Salvation given; everyone is pretty much set in their ways. The wicked won't repent, and the only way into Heaven after the Harvest is to be killed for your faith, which is exactly what happens to the Two Witnesses. The Church is removed first, in accordance with the parable of the wheat and the tares in Mt 13, and the wicked will be eliminated. Only the Meek and the Remnant Jews will survive the one 'seven'; man will be a rarity upon the earth at the end of the one 'seven.' - Isaiah 13:12.

Secondly there is a strong sense in what you write that Jesus' Wrath can be expressed all at once. I don't think that is the case with the destruction of the beast of a man or the beast of a nation he heads up. I think that destruction is a process, and that process takes time. Revenge is the Lord's it is written, and as a dish, it might be savored by the Just God we have in the Father. God's Wrath takes time. The first Woe alone takes five months. The second Woe can be read as taking just over thirteen months.

I think that Jesus begins God's Wrath on the Day of the Lord. There are two battles fought in end-time prophecy associated with the Day of the Lord and neither are in the hill country of Ephraim around Mount Megiddon. The two Day of the Lord battles are around Jerusalem. After the Day of the Lord, Jesus can come and go as is necessary, and in the OT you can find evidence that He shepherds the Remnant Jews through the desolations God the Father has decreed. Jesus was mobile in death as 2Pe 3:19 informs us, and as we read in the Gospels, He was mobile between Heaven and Earth after His Resurrection until the Ascension. Once He returns, Rev 14:4 also suggests mobility, as the 144,000 go where He goes. Jesus' final foray to Earth happens at the conclusion of the battle between North, South, and East at Armageddon, which as a Hebrew name is a mountain in the hill country of Ephraim near a plain which marks important victories in Israel's history; which I think foreshadow the final victory over man won by Christ.

However, Christ returns but once: on the Day of the Lord and as Isaiah 52:8 and Revelation 1:7 dictate, everyone will see Him. However, how many times Jesus subsequently alights upon the Earth before establishing the Millennium is determined only by God’s plan of vengeance and Jesus’ part in that Wrath until the Millennium Kingdom is established.

veteran said:
Christ's cup of wrath (is) poured out upon the wicked happens more than once, for..., at Rev.6:17 on the sixth seal, and Rev.11:18 at the 7th trumpet and Rev.16:19 with the 7th vial shows His wrath upon the wicked. Rev.19 also shows Christ's coming and the time of His wrath. That would make it 4 times between Rev.6 and Rev.19 there is given a time of His wrath. Yet there is only ONE time of His cup of wrath upon the wicked on the day of The LORD, not several. So which is the time of His wrath, Rev.6, Rev.11, Rev.16, or Rev.19?

The answer is: all of them are about the singular event of Christ's wrath poured out upon the wicked at the time of His return. That's the greater picture being given.

Like I said, I have a problem with the "singular" approach you take. There is a lot of action which happens on the Day of the Lord, but in the whole of the Seal/Scroll chronology; it is but the beginning, and I would say that God's Wrath, expressed as desolations which affect the earth, do not begin until the first Trumpet.

I noted before that Rosh ha-Shanah is a two-day Holy "Day." Likewise, I can fit all the diverse events of the sixth Seal into the first day of the Day of the Lord, and that goes on into the second day when the first Trumpet sounds, adding two (blood and fire) of the three elements we see in OT Day of the Lord Wrath prophecy. I would present the Day of the Lord from my studies to be of contrasting halves, much like the one 'seven' describes the rise and fall of the anti-Christ and has contrasting halves.

But does Christ's Wrath come at Rev 6:17? No, there is no desolation or battle mentioned in the text.

Who is it that proclaims it, is it John? No, it is the wicked.

Do the wicked have any wisdom? No, or they would be Christians.

Where would they get their knowledge that this will happen? From the three Angels who, in chapter 14, come after the 144,000 are mustered but precede the Harvest gathering of the Elect which results in the Great Multitude. Note that they carry the message to the very same people by which John describes the Great Multitude; God will insure that the Great Commission is fulfilled before the end comes (for the Church Age) and that all who are Holy are gathered. Our God is faithful to forgive and mighty enough to save all.

Rev 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth —to every nation, tribe, language and people. 7 He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.” 8 A second angel followed and said, “Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.” 9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, 10 he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

So with the signs of an earthquake to "shake things up," the sun being darkened at noon - as this day goes on panic sets in and then the Angels make their pronouncements. That is why the wicked are hiding and why they know their time is up.

But that is not what happens right then... first Jesus comes and steals the most valuable thing in the whole world right out of the grasp of the anti-Christ who would kill it: us!

Here is an outline of the Seals and Trumpets desolations of the Scroll (where the desolations God has decreed are stored - Dan 9:26)

The Seal/Scroll chronology in Revelation

I. White horse: the conqueror
II. Red horse: war
III. Black horse: economics and poverty
IV. Pale horse: pestilence and death
V. Those martyred for Christ
VI. Sixth Seal

A. Sun/Moon/Star event
B. Sealing the 144,000
C. The Great Multitude

VII. Seven Angels with seven trumpets

A. hail and fire burn a third of the Earth
B. blazing mountain kills a third of the Sea
C. Star of Wormwood turns the waters bitter
D. One third of all light, sun moon and stars stricken out
E. Abyss opened and locusts torment –the first woe - five months
F. Four angels kill one third of mankind; army of 200 million –the second woe - a year, a month, a week and a day

a. Angel with the Scroll/measuring the Temple (see Ezekiel 40-42)
b. The Two Witnesses

G. No action of judgment specified, instead just proclamation in heaven –there is no mention of the third woe. The scene changes entirely to a heavenly realm describing the start of God’s kingdom, and the final destruction of those on the earth. For how that is accomplished on earth, the parallel accounts reveal the answer on the nature of the third woe which describes the depth of God’s wrath as seven bowls to be poured out

Mark

Martin W. · Sep 9, 2010

Before I let somebody tell me about the trumpets of God I require them to list them all and study them all..

All the trumps , the trumpets , the trumpets of the angels , the last trump.

I find that once they have done that , they no longer try to teach me about trumpets.

teleiosis · Sep 9, 2010

You have no critique of the logic of the original post which proves through Scripture's specific and unique prophetic events that the Last Trumpet, a named trumpet by Paul relating to the very first sighting of the new moon which begins Rosh ha-Shanah (which coincidentally started tonight) - before anything was written by John about the seven Trumpets of God's Wrath by about four decades - cannot possibly be the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath?

As I said in response to Paul, there are other kinds of trumpets; however, they are not germane to the point I am making here. So I don't see what use studying other trumpets is going to do to add to my knowledge of the seven Trumpets the seven Angels sound to herald and bring forth God's Wrath, which I think was decreed so long ago and stored on the Scroll that only Jesus could open with the breaking of all seven Seals.

Adstar · Sep 9, 2010

teleiosis said:
Here, logically from Scripture, is why the Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath.

1. The Last Trumpet calls the Dead forth from Paradise (the ends of Heaven).

1Co 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

2. That happens on the Day of the Lord as Paul identifies it.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

2TH 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

On the Day of the Lord we will see the Dead in Christ rise first and then we who are still alive and are left will be caught up with them on the clouds. So we have two markers here which identify when Jesus is coming for us.

The gathering of Saints is on the Day of the Lord.

Jesus is on the clouds when He gathers those who are still alive and are left off the earth.

3. The Day of the Lord is when Jesus comes to get us. The Day of the Lord is identified by its signature Sun/moon/star sign:

MT 24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days
" `the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

MT 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Jesus uses the Sun/moon/star event from prophecy to identify the Day when He comes on the clouds to gather the Elect - just like Paul says in 1Th 4:16-17 which directly relates back to 1Co 15:52.

4. The specific and unique signature sign heralding the Day of the Lord is also revealed by Jesus to John for the sequence of the Day of the Lord in the Seal/Scroll vision given to John:

Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Therefore, we can conclude that Day of the Lord happens at the breaking of the sixth Seal.

The Day of the Lord is when we are gathered up as Paul said in Second Thessalonians.

Jesus said that after the Day of the Lord sign comes, the Elect will be gathered.

Therefore, in the Seal/Scroll account of Revelation chapters 4-11, the Great Multitude are the result of that gathering Harvest of Saints out of the then-shortened time of the Great Tribulation.

This claim is buttressed by the eyewitness testimony of an Elder who says the Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation, which echoes exactly the order Jesus gave in the Olivet Discourse.

The Day of the Lord happens before ANY of the Trumpet Judgments go forth.

Only after the sixth Seal is broken is the seventh Seal broken.

Then, and only then, when all the Seals have been broken, can the Scroll, where “desolations have been decreed” from 2500 years ago (Dan 9:26), be read, and only then does the First Trumpet of seven even sound.

And then, and only then, do we see “desolations” of Biblical proportions inflicted upon creation which in turn creates hardship for the wicked left upon the earth.

The Church is not to endure these conditions; God's Wrath is only for the wicked tares left behing in the field of this world after we're led together into the barn of Heaven from the parable of the wheat and the tares in Matthew 13:

Rom 2:8 But for those who are self–seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile

Rom 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!

1Th 1:10 …and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead —Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.

1Th 5:8 But since we belong to the day, let us be self–controlled, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him.

The Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet; it comes before the first Trumpet is even blown.
This preserves exactly the example of the Last Trumpet being the first trumpet to announce the Festival of Trumpets which is Rosh ha-Shanah.

The Bible never labels the seventh Trumpet as the Last Trumpet.

Instead, the “Last Trumpet,” as a named trumpet, is associated with the opening of Rosh ha-Shanah, the fall time Holy Day also known as the Festival of Trumpets.

It is the first of many different trumpet soundings which occur over the next two days of this special Holy “Day” observance.

The “Last Trumpet” in Jewish ritual observance, of which Paul was schooled and practiced, is the mirror horn from the blowing of the “First Trumpet” sounded at the Festival of First Fruits in the spring.

___________________________________________________________________

The Last Trumpet in end-time prophecy happens after:

The one ‘seven’ starts

The first half oppression

The midpoint abomination(s)

The Great Tribulation

The Last Trumpet sounds on:

The Day of the Lord

The Last Trumpet happens before:

Any of God’s Wrath goes forth which begins with fire (and the resultant smoke) on the Day of the Lord (second half) – first Trumpet

The rest of the Trumpet Judgments (which take time)

The final Bowl Judgments (which are the third Woe which is never delineated in the Seal chronology) which complete the one ‘seven’ as per Daniel 9:27.

Mark

You have overlooked the 3rd and 4th trumpets. they are before the 7th.

Revelation 8
10 Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11 The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter.
12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.

So as you see the great star (meteor) strikes the earth and then causes the darkening at the 3rd and 4th trumpet soundings

So ineed this is the same happening as in the scriptures you quote.

"Immediately after the distress of those days
" `the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;

So the 7th trumpet is in the right position to be the final trumpet.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

veteran · Sep 9, 2010

teleiosis said:
Veteran: From what little I know of your eschatology, I'm guessing you're a "last day" adherent. I am too. We just define "last day" a little differently... For instance, I know from what Jesus said that I can never know when the "last day" - when Jesus comes to rescue us- will come! Furthermore, not even Jesus knows when the Day of the Lord will come! And if He's alright with that, I can be too. So one thing I think we can preclude as ever being Biblically correct is any eschatology which attempts to pin the Rapture to the last day of the one 'seven' then goes against the fact that no one can possibly know which day that Day comes because by the last day of the one 'seven,' there will be no other day from which to choose! So as a logical person, I can't hold that reasoning in place in my head because it is invalidated by what Jesus said in Mt 24:36.

I think you arrange the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowl Judgments like this:

Now I could be wrong, but this was taken from a Post-Trib "Last Day" website and it is much like other classical 19th century Post-Trib adherent's eschatology. You can correct me if I'm wrong about your way of thinking, and I'm sure you will - but do you have any comment specifically about the reasoning I presented in the original post?

No, I don't necessarily adhere to that chart above you've given. One thing we can be certain of, the event order given with the last three trumpets is in order, with Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period of Rev.11:13 forward. And from Rev.11:13 to the end of the chapter are day of The LORD events. And yes, I do believe in a 7th trumpet post-tribulational coming of Christ and our gathering to Him. But that's obviously NOT the same 'last day' idea you are talking about.

I think the "last day" is whenever the end of the Church Age comes with the Day of the Lord. After that, there is no message of Salvation given; everyone is pretty much set in their ways. The wicked won't repent, and the only way into Heaven after the Harvest is to be killed for your faith, which is exactly what happens to the Two Witnesses. The Church is removed first, in accordance with the parable of the wheat and the tares in Mt 13, and the wicked will be eliminated. Only the Meek and the Remnant Jews will survive the one 'seven'; man will be a rarity upon the earth at the end of the one 'seven.' - Isaiah 13:12.

Well, the day of The LORD occurs on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period per Rev.11:13 to the end of that chapter. So the so-called 'Church Age' would indeed have to be over on that day, now wouldn't it? That still won't change the event order our Lord gave in His Revelation.

The time when you said the Church is gathered per our Lord's parable of the tares is an error. Per Matt.13:30 it's the tares that are gathered first and burned, which is perfectly in alignment with the events of Christ's coming and gathering of His saints. In the Zechariah 14 example of His coming, the Mount of Olives is split in two first, and then His saints flee to the valley that is formed as a result of that split. God through His OT prophets has shown that's the area that will be called the "valley of slaughter", associated with His wrath upon the wicked host of armies that will be gathered there against Jerusalem. I believe it is possible our gathering could happen at that same moment also, but per the order in Zech.14, that valley that will reach to Azal must be formed first before we can flee to it.

So, evidently you believe in a Post-Tribulational Pre-Wrath gathering of the saints? I don't. I see the time of His wrath happenning within the same timeframe of His coming to gather us, much like how Daniel's brethren were thrown in the hot firey furnace without being harmed and the king of Babylon's servants being incenirated at the same time. I don't see any need for us to be literally removed from the earth to Heaven in order to not be harmed by God's consuming fire that will burn the wicked on the earth in that day. Isaiah 29 shows that event is going to occur very quickly, like suddenly waking up from a dream for the wicked. Apostle Paul described that event on the last trumpet as a change upon this earth that will take place at the twinkling of an eye, fast as one can blink.

Secondly there is a strong sense in what you write that Jesus' Wrath can be expressed all at once. I don't think that is the case with the destruction of the beast of a man or the beast of a nation he heads up. I think that destruction is a process, and that process takes time. Revenge is the Lord's it is written, and as a dish, it might be savored by the Just God we have in the Father. God's Wrath takes time. The first Woe alone takes five months. The second Woe can be read as taking just over thirteen months.

I believe because God is Just and Fair, that's why His wrath will occur very quickly, along with the time of Christ's coming and our gathering. Rev.18 reveals the judgment upon the harlot will happen within "one hour". That's pretty quick. The first woe - 5th trumpet is tribulation timing if you understand what the five months stinging is about. I forget what it's called when something is inferred by mention of a direct opposite clause, but a reference to Christ's sealed elect is given there with that idea of the stinging only being upon those not sealed, but it's inferred because of God's sealing and what it is purposed for. And the idea that the 144,000 only mean Jews is an old idea I think developed from dispensationalism in the 1800's. I don't adhere to that. Nor do I separate the second group of Rev.7:9 forward from the idea of God's sealing His servants for the tribulation in that chapter.

The 2nd woe - 6th trumpet, we are actually given its definite time period in Rev.11, as 1260 days or 42 months. Events in that period point to the latter half of the tribulation period given in the Book of Daniel. Our Lord Jesus said He shortened the great tribulation time, so that might be shortened also, and if so, I think it is the time of stinging you speak of, five months, the time of the symbolic flood out of the dragon's mouth. Recall the flood metaphor.

I think that Jesus begins God's Wrath on the Day of the Lord. There are two battles fought in end-time prophecy associated with the Day of the Lord and neither are in the hill country of Ephraim around Mount Megiddon. The two Day of the Lord battles are around Jerusalem. After the Day of the Lord, Jesus can come and go as is necessary, and in the OT you can find evidence that He shepherds the Remnant Jews through the desolations God the Father has decreed. Jesus was mobile in death as 2Pe 3:19 informs us, and as we read in the Gospels, He was mobile between Heaven and Earth after His Resurrection until the Ascension. Once He returns, Rev 14:4 also suggests mobility, as the 144,000 go where He goes. Jesus' final foray to Earth happens at the conclusion of the battle between North, South, and East at Armageddon, which as a Hebrew name is a mountain in the hill country of Ephraim near a plain which marks important victories in Israel's history; which I think foreshadow the final victory over man won by Christ.

I also believe His wrath is on the day of The LORD, but the events occur very quickly, not stretched out like the way we're forced to take time to read the detailed events in Revelation. I think our sense of time while engrossed in the details can become skewed.

Likewise, I think the various views we're given about the battle that happens with His coming can become skewed. We know the word Armageddon is from the Hebrew about Megiddo. Even though a Hebrew word, the Strong's Concordance I have associates two Greek words with it meaning to pour upon and surround. I believe its usage in Rev.16 is thus meant symbolically, for a literal event (Zeph.3:8).

I do not believe that we only will be changed at Christ's coming on that day. I believe ALL... that are upon the earth will be changed at the twinkling of an eye on that day. Thus the Isaiah metaphor of the wicked being like a hungry man dreaming of eating, and suddenly waking up and his soul is empty (i.e., the "resurrection of damnation" per John 5:29). I believe both the just, and the unjust, will be changed on that day, at the same time, and both will go through the thousand years in those resurrection types, each according to one of the two types of resurrections Christ declared in John 5.

However, Christ returns but once: on the Day of the Lord and as Isaiah 52:8 and Revelation 1:7 dictate, everyone will see Him. However, how many times Jesus subsequently alights upon the Earth before establishing the Millennium is determined only by God’s plan of vengeance and Jesus’ part in that Wrath until the Millennium Kingdom is established.

Well, we definitely agree that Christ returns only once, on the day of The LORD. I don't see His wrath causing a delay for the coming of the Milennium that you do. After the twinkling of an eye change, the Millennium is here. Then those left, a separation between the just and the unjust (Matt.25).

Like I said, I have a problem with the "singular" approach you take. There is a lot of action which happens on the Day of the Lord, but in the whole of the Seal/Scroll chronology; it is but the beginning, and I would say that God's Wrath, expressed as desolations which affect the earth, do not begin until the first Trumpet.

If you had to write a detailed technical description of the operation of a jet turbine and all its associated parts, how would that relate to the time required for the operation of the real thing? I see our Lord's Book of Revelation about events on the last day as that kind of technical description, but the time of the real thing happenning very quickly.

We are shown that God's wrath upon the wicked at the time of Christ's coming is different than the period of desolations that happen upon the earth prior to His coming. Look at the 5th vial events. The wicked are still blaspheming God and refusing to repent of their deeds when that is poured upon them. Just as with Egypt in Moses' day, they didn't repent while the plagues were going on. How many plagues did it take before they would allow the children of Israel to leave? At the same time, God protected the faithful of Israel from those plagues with His passover, which our Lord Jesus now is our Passover Lamb. We don't have to escape to not be under those plagues in the last days.

I noted before that Rosh ha-Shanah is a two-day Holy "Day." Likewise, I can fit all the diverse events of the sixth Seal into the first day of the Day of the Lord, and that goes on into the second day when the first Trumpet sounds, adding two (blood and fire) of the three elements we see in OT Day of the Lord Wrath prophecy. I would present the Day of the Lord from my studies to be of contrasting halves, much like the one 'seven' describes the rise and fall of the anti-Christ and has contrasting halves.

I don't see a two day contrast to the day of The LORD, because I treat it as "singualr" event, remember? I treat it as the "thousand years" period, with the time of Christ's return simply starting that thousand years. When Christ is here, that thousand years begins its countdown. One event on the 6th seal you should have clearly... noted. The idea of untimely figs being cast down. What does that associate with? What event is that? Our Lord covered it within His Olivet Discourse, so you should be familiar with it.

But does Christ's Wrath come at Rev 6:17? No, there is no desolation or battle mentioned in the text.

Who is it that proclaims it, is it John? No, it is the wicked.

Do the wicked have any wisdom? No, or they would be Christians.

I beg to differ, for the end of Rev.6 on the 6th seal does declare the time of Christ's wrath has come. John is who is proclaiming those seal events as he is being shown them, and he is quoting what the wicked say at that point.

Rev 6:15-17
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(KJV)

I realize John being shown that event at that point on the 6th seal unravels part of the last day position you hold to, but I can't help that. I didn't write that Scripture, our Lord Jesus did through His Apostle John.

Where would they get their knowledge that this will happen? From the three Angels who, in chapter 14, come after the 144,000 are mustered but precede the Harvest gathering of the Elect which results in the Great Multitude. Note that they carry the message to the very same people by which John describes the Great Multitude; God will insure that the Great Commission is fulfilled before the end comes (for the Church Age) and that all who are Holy are gathered. Our God is faithful to forgive and mighty enough to save all.

Sorry, but your premise that the time of Christ's wrath is not come on the 6th seal will not fit the Rev.14 events how you're declaring their order. Remember, Christ's coming is declared in the 1st Revelation chapter also, and also in Rev.11, Rev.16, and Rev.19. But that doesn't mean He comes 4 times. It means those descriptions are spread throughout the Revelation chapters about a one time event. Rev.14:1-5 is forward look after Christ's return; Rev.14:6 forward is a move back to the tribulation timing, and then leads up to Christ's coming and judgment. Got to rightly divide the events, then their timing is revealed. You seem to have done that pretty well elsewhere in Revelation with the hour of Christ's coming and the gathering vs. the events leading up to His coming vs. events after His coming.

teleiosis · Sep 9, 2010

Adstar said:
You have overlooked the 3rd and 4th trumpets. they are before the 7th.

Revelation 8
10 Then the third angel sounded: And a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11 The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many men died from the water, because it was made bitter.
12 Then the fourth angel sounded: And a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them were darkened. A third of the day did not shine, and likewise the night.

So as you see the great star (meteor) strikes the earth and then causes the darkening at the 3rd and 4th trumpet soundings

So ineed this is the same happening as in the scriptures you quote.

So the 7th trumpet is in the right position to be the final trumpet.

No, I did not overlook the third and fourth Trumpet's effects upon the sun, moon, and stars; it is that the effect they have is not the same effect as we see with the sun/moon/star event which heralds the Day of the Lord in OT prophecy nor in the Olivet Discourse which quotes an OT source we don't have with the Masoretic text. (Bible scholars and textual critics have speculated that since the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls that the Masoretic Text which is the basis for our OT may not have been the only textual "line" of the OT, and it probably was not the best line of manuscripts either - it is just the only line to come to us through the first Jewish Rebellions. This quote, which is unlike any in the OT we have now, is not the only time NT speakers quote OT Scripture which is not in the Masoretic text.)

The manner of the sun's darkening is different. The darkening, which begins at noon, Amos 8:9, is a sign according to Luke, not a desolation. What is missing in Joel, Isaiah, and Amos on the Day of the Lord's sun/moon/star event is "how" the sun is darkened. One aspect which can be discerned about the two-part Day of the Lord, is that one aspect of it is foreboding with the amassing of great clouds. This precedes the outbreak of war, desolations with its attendant death and destruction which befalls unbelieving Israel and the evil forces of the King of the North.

[sup]EZE 30:3[/sup] For the day is near,
the day of the LORD is near--
a day of clouds,
a time of doom for the nations.

[sup]EZE 32:7[/sup] When I snuff you out, I will cover the heavens
and darken their stars;
I will cover the sun with a cloud,
and the moon will not give its light.

And when the moon does not give its light, its light is the silvery reflection of sunlight we are used to seeing. A reddish moon would give a different light; not its usual light.

The greatest contrast happens with the stars which are not darkened in thirds but fall as in a meteor shower.

The third Trumpet does not affect the heavens and fourth Trumpet does not affect the sun, moon, and stars in the same way which God affects them so they are a sign to us that Jesus is coming.

Again, this happens on the Day of the Lord which is tied to the sixth Seal.
This happens before any of the Trumpet desolations go forth... we are not meant to suffer God's Wrath.

But do you have any critique or comment about the logic of differentiating between the Last Trumpet and the seventh Trumpet which I gave as the OP?

Mark

A point of order here.

The manner of the Scroll, and the order of its opening and the timing of God's Wrath in the form of desolations of a Biblical magnitude like the Flood, are often the source for conjecture and speculation. Many people think the first four Seals are, as depicted from the Dark Ages, the final straw and it is with them that God's Wrath comes at the end... However, the evidence in the Bible is that the true desolations, which Gabriel told Daniel had been decreed, do not come until all seven Seals on the Scroll are opened by Jesus.

Here is an excellent discourse on the nature of the Scroll, and why it should be viewed as a scroll with the seals keeping it from opening at all, rather than a codex, which is a type of book, and could possibly have sequential desolations as each seal is broken.

Expositor’s Bible Commentary on Revelation 5:1 - Whether it is a codex or a scroll which is sealed

John sees "in the right hand of him who sat on the throne a scroll with writing on both sides and sealed with seven seals." This raises a problem involving the phrase "with writing on both sides." Papyrus codices (which were like books as we know them) did not originate until the second century A.D., or perhaps the late first century (Bruce M. Metzger, The Text of the New Testament 2d ed. [Oxford: Clarendon, 1964], p. 6). In ancient times, papyrus rolls were used for public and private documents. Usually the writing was on one side only--the inside part, arranged in successive vertical columns. Occasionally a scroll was written on both sides; in that case it was called an "opisthograph." Such double-sided writing was for private, nonsalable use in contrast to the usual scrolls written on only one side, which were sold (Edward Maunde Thompson, An Introduction to Greek and Latin Paleography [Oxford: Clarendon, 1912], pp. 49-50). In the context of chapter 5, an opisthograph would signify a scroll full of words. The importance of establishing the scroll rather than codex character of the document lies in the interpretation of the opening of the seals. If the book was a codex, the seals could have been opened one at a time and portions of the book disclosed; a scroll, however, could be opened only after all the seals were broken.

Scrolls, or folded sheets, were sealed with wax blobs impressed with a signet ring to protect the contents or guarantee the integrity of the writing. Only the owner could open the seals and disclose the contents. Original documents were usually sealed; copies were not. Sealed documents were kept hidden while unsealed copies were made public (Rev 22:10) (TDNT, 7:941ff.).

The phrase "with writing on both sides" (gegrammenon esothen kai opisthen) is literally "written inside and on the back side," where "on the back side" (opisthen) is generally understood as going with "written" (gegrammenon). Zahn, however, argues that "back side" (opisthen) should go with the verb "sealed" (katesphragismenon) and not with "written" (Theodore Zahn, Introduction to the New Testament, 3 vols. [Grand Rapids: Kregel, 1953], 3.405-6). While tempting and grammatically possible, Zahn's view has not found acceptance among exegetes; and the adverbial use of opisthen in the rest of Revelation and the NT favors taking it always with a preceding rather than a following verb.

As to the identity and significance of the scroll, there are a number of different views.

1. Ancient Roman wills or "testaments" were sealed with six seals, each of which bore a different name of the sealer and could only be opened by him (TDNT, 7:941). This has led some to identify the scroll as the testament of God concerning the promise of the inheritance of his future kingdom (Zahn, NT Introduction, 3:395-96). A slight variation of this view refers the scene to the Roman law of mancipatio. Under this law an heir received either an inheritance at the death of the testator or the use of mancipatio in connection with transference of the inheritance to an executor, known as the familiae empto. The executor could use the property till the death of the testator, at which time he was obligated to distribute the possessions in accordance with the instructions of the testator (Emmet Russell, A Roman Law Parallel to Revelation Five," BS, 115 [1958], 258-64).

2. Others find the scroll containing, like Ezekiel's scroll, "words of lament and mourning and woe" (Ezek 2:9-10) and depicting the future judgment of the world (Walvoord, p. 113).

3. Still others find the significance to be the progressive unfolding of the history of the world. As each successive seal is opened, the further contents of the book are revealed. J.A. Seiss (The Apocalypse [Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1957], p. 112) connects the scroll with a "title-deed" Jer 32:10-14). It is the "title-deed" to creation that was forfeited by sin in Genesis. By his redeeming death Christ has won the authority to reclaim the earth.

4. A more recent study finds the scroll to be the OT Torah (Law) (Lucetta Mowry, "Revelation 4-5 and Early Christian Liturgical Usage," JBL, 71 [1952], 75-84).

Each of these views has merit and may provide elements of truth for the background of the striking imagery in these chapters. Yet each view is vulnerable to criticism. Only from Revelation itself can the content and nature of the scroll be determined. Since the seals hinder the opening of the scroll till they are all broken, we may assume that the seals are preparatory to the opening of the scroll and the disclosure of its contents. This means that the seals have the effect of hiding the contents of the scroll till they are broken (Isa 29:11).

Mark

teleiosis · Sep 9, 2010

veteran said:
No, I don't necessarily adhere to that chart above you've given. One thing we can be certain of... with Christ's coming on the 7th trumpet...

I am still waiting for some critique of my original post...

But as to your declarative statement, there is no evidence in the Bible that Christ comes for His Bride at the seventh Trumpet in the Bible. That is not at all what is indicated in the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4 through 11.

Indeed: we get NO information at all on the third Woe except its beginning and very end because John if faithful not to disclose anything the Angel says. Instead, we get a definite break in the action and John is tasked with other things - which are not written in the book of Revelation at all - and we get the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses instead. John then gets back into the linear narrative, literally backtracking in 11:14 to the second Woe and retelling his narrative now in shortened form to the conclusion.

We never hear of the desolations God has except for the final earthquake... and there is nothing to indicate in chapter 11 that Jesus arrives on the clouds.

Furthermore, if we look at Revelation chapters 13 though 16 (inclusive) we find the same "end" of the one 'seven' in chapter 16 which matches chapter 11's "end" and we also find that the Bowl (or Vial) Judgments come last.

It is a perfectly legitimate tool of interpretation to look at this parallel account to the Seal/Scroll chronology as revealing the depth of God's Wrath in the third Woe.

So: Jesus does not come at the seventh Trumpet's first Bowl desolation either!

In fact, only at the end with the seventh Bowl, is it over. And one of the things which is over is the battle at Armageddon. We find in another linear narrative, begun in chapter 19, that Jesus is going to go out to do battle at Armageddon, and at this battle He and His Army capture the anti-Christ and false prophet alive.

Note too, that Jesus is cheered on by a Great Multitude: have you ever heard a stadium full of fans cheer on their football team as it makes its entrance? Imagine what billions of saved Elect will sound like!

When Jesus goes to the battle at Armageddon, He is on a horse, not a cloud, and He is not to save, but to capture.

The battle at Armageddon is the final battle of the one 'seven' which is replete with battles and wars. It is the final stroke, along with the earth-changing great earthquake of the desolations which are "poured out" on the desolator: the anti-Christ.

Furthermore: the evidence in the Bible, from the parallel account to the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 13 - 16, is that Jesus does come on the clouds to gather the Harvest before any desolation by God's Wrath, including the avenging Angel of the winepress of God's Wrath are inflicted upon the remaining wicked who are "burned" in the field of this world.

All evidence in the Bible is that Jesus returns on the Day of the Lord and that He does this prior any of the Wrath of God which is begun on the Day of the Lord's second half.

No one knows when that Day will be - so one thing that can be known is that it is not on the last day of the one 'seven,' but that's another point you haven't yet addressed.

Mark

teleiosis · Sep 9, 2010

Well let me try and get through this post of yours Veteran, so you don't think I'm ignoring you...

veteran said:
Well, the day of The LORD occurs on the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period per Rev.11:13 to the end of that chapter...

What determines the Day of the Lord?

The easiest way is when the prophet tells us it is the Day of the Lord.
But another way is to have an event linked to the signature sign of the Day of the Lord: the sun/moon/star event.

These celestial signs are tied to the Day of the Lord in Isaiah 13:9-10; Joel 2:31, and Joel 3:14-16.

Whenever these specific and unique series of celestial signs are written, we can know for sure we're reading an event which occurs on the Day of the Lord.

Jesus mentions the specific and unique sun/moon/star event as happening after the Great Tribulation and right before He comes to gather the Elect in the Olivet Discourse.

From the Father, Jesus reveals to John that the specific and unique sun/moon/star event happens with the breaking of the sixth Seal.

However, to simply say the Day of the Lord happens at the seventh Trumpet is not supported by any verse... and again, I have shown by Scripture that the first Trumpet:

Is when we are raised up - 1Co 15:51
Which is connected to when Jesus comes on the clouds - 1Th 4:16
That it happens on the Day of the Lord - Mt 24:29-31
Which is designated from both the Olivet Discourse and the Seal/Scroll chronology as happening with the sixth Seal - Rev 6:12-14
Furthermore, in Revelation's parallel account of the one 'seven' in chapters 13 through 16 -
After the midpoint abomination - Rev 13:14 - the Harvest with Jesus on the clouds happens - Rev 14:14-16
And the Harvest happens before any of the final Wrath of God (starting with an avenging Angel in Rev 14:17) the last Bowl Judgments, which make up the seventh Trumpet, happen in Rev 15:6-16:21.

veteran said:
So the so-called 'Church Age' would indeed have to be over on that day, now wouldn't it?

The "last day" is whenever Jesus comes... You have not, however, shown that it is on the last day of the one 'seven.'

veteran said:
The time when you said the Church is gathered per our Lord's parable of the tares is an error. Per Matt.13:30 it's the tares that are gathered first and burned...

That not exactly what Jesus said in the parable.

The Greek makes clear a separation between the action surrounding the tares is differentiated from the action surrounding the wheat by using two different verbs, which essentially have the same meaning. The Greek allows us to say the manner of their gathering is not identical. A better way to say it is that the tares are "collected" and the wheat is "gathered."

Furthermore the tares are not burned at the time of their collection but will be burned - which is in the Greek in the aorist tense, indicative mood, and active voice. After the wheat is gathered together it is then brought (led together in the Greek) into the barn of Heaven. Then the tares are burned in the field. God said not to pluck out the tares lest the wheat be harmed, so now you're going to tell me they can be burned without harming the wheat? Any farmer knows you don't burn your field until the crop is safely in storage.

The Harvest is the end of the Age, and then Angels weed out the field, pulling up the tares and throwing them into the fire.

No, I don't think I got the parable wrong... the general order is just like the parable of the good and bad fish. The good fish were collected in baskets and the bad fish are thrown away.

teleiosis · Sep 9, 2010

veteran said:
I see the time of His wrath happenning within the same timeframe of His coming to gather us, much like how Daniel's brethren were thrown in the hot firey furnace without being harmed and the king of Babylon's servants being incenirated at the same time.

That's all well and good and you can believe what you like, but the example of Daniel's friends in the furnace was not given to us as an example of the end of the Church Age.

Specifically, which I listed at the start of this thread, we are told we are not to suffer God's Wrath which is revealed to us as a series of world-wide desolations. How a third of the earth is burned, and mountains blow their stacks (think of the Yellowstone caldera blowing for the Biblical proportions of how the Day of the Lord will affect the earth) and to say we are not affected is not a realisitic scenario when you get down to the time/motion analysis in a logical, literal fashion.

veteran said:
Isaiah 29 shows that event is going to occur very quickly, like suddenly waking up from a dream for the wicked.

However, the first Woe takes five months, and the second Woe can be read so as to take just over thirteen months... so what is Isaiah 29 describing, and what is the ratio between when this prophecy was uttered and the Wrath of God takes place. Is not two or three years a drop compared to two to three millennia? Is not the bulk of a the second half of the one 'seven' a short time compared to that?

veteran said:
I also believe His wrath is on the day of The LORD, but the events occur very quickly, not stretched out like the way we're forced to take time to read the detailed events in Revelation. I think our sense of time while engrossed in the details can become skewed.

If you had to write a detailed technical description of the operation of a jet turbine and all its associated parts, how would that relate to the time required for the operation of the real thing? I see our Lord's Book of Revelation about events on the last day as that kind of technical description, but the time of the real thing happening very quickly.

Well actually, I know a thing or two about jet engines, since I have been flying them for over thirty years now.

Jet engines spin at tens of thousands of revolutions per minute. Even at idle, they are typically running at 50 to 60% of their rated RPMs. None of my manuals actually discuss the rated RPM number, but express the limits as a function of it's rated rotational speed. I was told once that the auxiliary power unit (APU) which is a small jet engine, spins between 40 and 45 thousand RPM. The actual engine gauges in the cockpit are always expressed as a percentage. The maximum percentage allowed may be greater than 100% too. That is not uncommon. My current jet engines, the JT8D-219, have FAA limitations set at 101.6% for the N1 spool, and 102.5% for the N2 spool.

Jet engines are simple, and yet not simple. While it may seem instantaneous to you, to the engineers who built them, they are a painstaking process.

First the air is compressed. After passing over the strakes which support the nose, there are alternating moving and static blades. Each blade is an air foil. The moving and static blades work in tandem and against each other. Each set makes a stage. I have 13 stages of compression, and each stage sets up the next stage. The air is squeezed centrifugally against the outer shell and then when it's moving the fastest, and also the hottest, it moves into a combustion chamber.

There, fuel is added. Spark is only applied for start and flame stability depending on other external factors which I have to know to operate the engine in all kinds of weather conditions.

After the combustion, the expanding gases pass over five stages of turbines. These blades power the compressor and auxiliary equipment like the generator which has a constant speed drive unit, oil pumps, fuel pumps (in two or three stages) and hydraulic pumps which operate at up to 3000 psi.

So from a design standpoint, a jet engine is a series of operations down to each individual blade.

God's desolations are done by design. Their effect is cumulative. All are needed, and we are to withstand none of them.

You can maintain that God will have Jesus be our Passover Lamb and protect us from all the dire calamities to hit the earth, but without Him being here - I don't see how that is possible.

In fact, we are to suffer through the Great Tribulation, and Jesus said we would be "handed over," and He said that in dying we would save our lives eternally, and that if He were not to come when the Father determines, no flesh (of ours) would be saved, but that for the sake of the Elect (not the wicked) we would not all die. Paul reiterated that as well, saying that not everyone would die, that some of us would be alive and would be left to see Jesus come.

However, with all that, nowhere does Scripture say that Jesus protects us through the Wrath that befalls the world, the King James of Rev 3:10 not withstanding; the word there is tereo - and the protection it affords is not total or physical as evidence in John 17:15 for the Apostles who, with the exception of John, were all martyred. Instead, Paul says we are saved so as to not to face God's Wrath.

teleiosis · Sep 9, 2010

veteran said:
I beg to differ, for the end of Rev.6 on the 6th seal does declare the time of Christ's wrath has come. John is who is proclaiming those seal events as he is being shown them, and he is quoting what the wicked say at that point.

And I beg to differ as well.

It is the wicked, and as Christians we have to ask where they get their knowledge since they have no innate wisdom themselves, and even Christians like you and me, who read the BIble: disagree.

John is not saying the Wrath of God comes. However, from the parallel account of the one 'seven' found in Revelation chapters 13-16, we can easily see that before the Harvest of the Elect, which happens on the Day of the Lord as Jesus set in the Olivet Discourse, which results in the Great Multitude appearing in Heaven after the sun/moon/star event which opens up the Day and the mustering of the 144,000 as depicted in the sixth Seal - the whole world is told that God's Wrath is coming and the wicked, especially those who helped institute the mark of the beast for "peace and safety" as surely Obama would do if he were President during this time, would know that He is coming for them. And they, being narcissistic in the extreme, are all about saving their own skin.

Therefore, the wicked only know that God's Wrath is coming for them because they've been told. Their focus, always on themselves and not on God, has them expressing their fear and not actually saying that God's Wrath has come down! John does not list ANY desolation as happening at that time. All we have is the witness of fools and evil people. What they state is true though, it just doesn't happen at that moment. While they are all concerned about themselves, Jesus first comes back and gathers the Harvest before the avenging Angel starts stuffing the tares into the winepress of God's Wrath!

veteran said:
Sorry, but your premise that the time of Christ's wrath is not come on the 6th seal will not fit the Rev.14 events how you're declaring their order. Remember, Christ's coming is declared in the 1st Revelation chapter also, and also in Rev.11, Rev.16, and Rev.19.

Sorry, but yes it does.

The Great Multitude are gathered before the Wrath of God goes out with the desolations which have been decreed, and stored on the Scroll with the first Trumpet, and the first Trumpet supplies two very important Wrath elements evident in OT Day of the Lord Wrath: fire and blood.

Likewise, in the parallel account to the sixth Seal, the Harvest from the clouds comes before the avenging Angel helps supply blood for the bloodbath which happens on the Day of the Lord Wrath. Likewise, the Harvest on the clouds also occurs before the last desolations which I think make up the third Woe.

Furthermore, Jesus' coming as an event does not happen at the verses you have indicated:

Revelation 1:7 Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.

This is a declarative statement which will be. John is not saying it happened then. Likewise with "soon" take place. The Greek there does not suggest imminent, but that it takes place rapidly. After waiting two thousand years, the one 'seven' is a rapid change to a new order.

Revelation 11: No coming with clouds mentioned.

Revelation 16: No coming with clouds mentioned.

Revelation 19: No coming with clouds mentioned. However, Jesus does ride a white Horse and He goes with His Army who are also on horses to trample the winepress of God's Wrath upon the wicked.

There is a time though that Jesus does come on the clouds to gather the Elect and that is in Revelation 14.

After the midpoint abomination of Rev 13:14
and after the reason the Great Tribulation is so terrible for Christians in Rev 13:15-17
After the mustering of the 144,000 on Mt. Zion
and after the three angels fulfill the Great Commission and warn the world of God's Wrath (which is how the wicked know in 6:17)

14 I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one “like a son of man” with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, “Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.

This happens before the Angel goes out to stoke the winepress of God's Wrath
It happens before the final desolations of the third Woe hit with the Bowl Judgments
And this happens before Armageddon in Rev 16:16 and the final earthquake of the one 'seven' in Rev 16:18-20.

So when you're looking for when Jesus comes on the clouds to lift us up and rescue us from the clutches of this world, look to where He actually comes on the clouds.

Mark

242006 · Sep 9, 2010

Rapture believers have been trying for a long time to either rewrite the Bible to fit their endtime theory or interpret the existing Bible in such manner to give the impression that the Lord returns before the tribulation, before the wrath of God, or before the end in order that they can claim a 'rapture' of the church. The OP is just another similarly failed attempt.

The issue is easily resolved if one looks up the meaning of 'last' as in 'last trumpet'. A check in Strong's reveals -

<B>

G2078

</B>

ἔσχατος

eschatos

es'-khat-os

A superlative probably from G2192 (in the sense of contiguity); farthest, final (of place or time): - ends of, last, latter end, lowest, uttermost.

Obviously, the meaning is clear that there are no more trumpets coming thereafter. Hence, in the OP, when the poster suggests that the 'last' trumpet does not even come before the 'first' trumpet, one can see from the meaning of 'last' that such position in the OP is pure fallacy. The last trumpet is the seventh trump.

teleiosis · Sep 9, 2010

Watchman_2 said:
Obviously, the meaning is clear that there are no more trumpets coming thereafter. Hence, in the OP, when the poster suggests that the 'last' trumpet does not even come before the 'first' trumpet, one can see from the meaning of 'last' that such position in the OP is pure fallacy. The last trumpet is the seventh trump.

So last simply means last so the seventh Trumpet which Paul hadn't read about and possibly didn't know anything about is the last thing sounded and the Bowl Judgments are not last... or wait a minute, we CAN know when Jesus will come again because it is on the last day of the one 'seven'... ???

And the fact that the Festival of Trumpets which is going on right now is full of trumpet blasts and started by the named trumpet called the Last Trumpet means absolutely nothing.

I didn't have to rewrite anything.

In Revelation chapters 13-16:
- the beast arises and rules for 42 months
- the talking image is unveiled
- two laws make for the Great Tribulation
- the 144,000 are assembled on Mt. Zion
- three Angels fulfill the Great Commission and tell the world God's Wrath is coming
- the Harvest comes with Jesus on the clouds
- an avenging Angel feeds God's winepress of Wrath
- seven bowl Judgments
- Armageddon
In the Olivet Discourse Jesus said the following events would occur and He stated them in this order:
- the (midpoint) abomination
- the shortened Great Tribulation
- the sun/moon/star event
- the sign of the the Son of Man in the sky
- the gathering of the Elect from the clouds
In the Seal/Scroll chronology:
- at the sixth Seal there is the sun/moon/star event.
- the wicked hide
- the 144,000 are sealed
- the Great Multitude show up in Heaven - out of the Great Tribulation.
- the seventh Seal is broken and the Trumpets are introduced.

I can add more detail, but the examples of Noah and Lot provide for rescue followed by wrath.
Those are the Biblical stories we are given which serve as an example for us for the end-times.

I don't have to rewrite anything, but I would like to know how you can say you know when the Day of the Lord is coming.

242006 · Sep 9, 2010

teleiosis,

Your analysis is fatally flawed on many fronts. In review of your OP, it appears that you start to go astray when you attempt to place the last /seventh trumpet in conjunction with the seals of Revelation. It is at that point that you make your first fatal error in presuming the seals are given in chronological order. The seals are not given in chronological order. This is easily proven.

When viewing the vials, we see -

Rev 16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

When viewing the trumpets, we see -

Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

In Greek, the work rendered 'first' means -

G4413

πρῶτος

prōtos

pro'-tos

Contracted superlative of G4253; foremost (in time, place, order or importance): - before, beginning, best, chief (-est), first (of all), former.

As one can see, 'first' means 'first in time' or 'first in order'.

When we look at the seals, we see -

Rev 6:1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

As one can see, it was not the 'first' seal opened, but just one of the 7 seals. This clue lets the true Bible student that the seals are not given in chronological order. Accordingly, the true Bible student can easily spot this fatal error in your OP.

The second major fatal flaw in your OP is your contention that the church is not appointed to wrath. That simply is not true. There is a distinction between the church and the elect. The elect are not appointed to God's wrath and, hence, will be protected by God during the tribulations. However, the church [minus the elect], is the actual target of God's wrath. Again, this is easily proven.

Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.

Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.

The first 4 vials of God's wrath are given in effort to get the church to repent. Many have bought into Satan's Doctrine -- the Rapture, and are lost. Rapture is the great apostasy of the endtime.

All 'Rapture' believers need to read 2 Thes. 2.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Satan arrives ahead of the Lord's return. There is also a message for Rapture believers that want to think Christ comes first -

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

So, it is up to you whether you want to believe the lie of Rapture and be damned or believe the Truth.

Adstar · Sep 10, 2010

Watchman_2 said:
[/indent]Obviously, the meaning is clear that there are no more trumpets coming thereafter. Hence, in the OP, when the poster suggests that the 'last' trumpet does not even come before the 'first' trumpet, one can see from the meaning of 'last' that such position in the OP is pure fallacy. The last trumpet is the seventh trump.

Yes the Last trumpet in Revelation is the Last trumpet. It is clear and simple. It cannot be made otherwise by trying to drown people in thousands of words.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

The Last Trumpet Is Not The Seventh Trumpet.

New Member

Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

Active Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

New Member

Similar threads