New heaven new earth???

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101G

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I believe such a literal view, conflicts with the assurance contained in such scriptures as Matthew 6:10, Psalm 37:29 and 104:5, also Proverbs 2:21, 22.
not saying that you're right or wrong, but Revelation clearly staes there will be no need for the Natural sunligh in the city. ?Hmmmmmm it also states, Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."
now we can say, well that metaphorically speaking of the sea of humanity, (People, the wicked). well they will be removed. but there is a smooth sea as well as a mired or turmoil one, and the verse just said, sea.
so..... if literal, will there be no more fish and other marine animals? I say no, the scripture said no more "sea", it didn't say, no more "WATER", just "sea".

so back to the sun & moon, the natural ones? are they did away with? well the scriptures don't really say that it says this, Revelation 21:23 "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

did the scriptures say the natural sun and the moon is eliminated? no, not really, but something to think about, can the sun and the moon here is symbolic for the Law, (moon), and the Gospel, (sun?). well........

Revelation 21:1 states "heaven" not plural. do this just mean, air pollution and the waters, is cleaned up as with the term sea?.



now terms, MAN and the term EARTH, they are the one in the same, for man came from the earth, he's DUST.

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 
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Ronald Nolette

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Are they physical or spiritual?

Physical

2 Peter 3:10
King James Version

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


Revelation 21
King James Version

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
 

theefaith

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Physical

2 Peter 3:10
King James Version

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


Revelation 21
King James Version

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his , and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

old heaven and earth are burned up at the end but the new are the bride the church

Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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not saying that you're right or wrong, but Revelation clearly staes there will be no need for the Natural sunligh in the city. ?Hmmmmmm it also states, Revelation 21:1 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."
now we can say, well that metaphorically speaking of the sea of humanity, (People, the wicked). well they will be removed. but there is a smooth sea as well as a mired or turmoil one, and the verse just said, sea.
so..... if literal, will there be no more fish and other marine animals? I say no, the scripture said no more "sea", it didn't say, no more "WATER", just "sea".

so back to the sun & moon, the natural ones? are they did away with? well the scriptures don't really say that it says this, Revelation 21:23 "And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof."

did the scriptures say the natural sun and the moon is eliminated? no, not really, but something to think about, can the sun and the moon here is symbolic for the Law, (moon), and the Gospel, (sun?). well........

Revelation 21:1 states "heaven" not plural. do this just mean, air pollution and the waters, is cleaned up as with the term sea?.



now terms, MAN and the term EARTH, they are the one in the same, for man came from the earth, he's DUST.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

I've told you about how I believe about such scriptures as Revelation 21:23 before but I know you're not going to agree so you and I will have to agree to disagree. I'm not going to repeat the same information to you and I'm not going to agree with the same information you're saying to me. We're not going to agree so you and I need to move on.
 

101G

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I've told you about how I believe about such scriptures as Revelation 21:23 before but I know you're not going to agree so you and I will have to agree to disagree. I'm not going to repeat the same information to you and I'm not going to agree with the same information you're saying to me. We're not going to agree so you and I need to move on.
didn't ask you to..... :eek: YIKES!

agree to disagree? that's a old trick of the evil one, if you agree to disagree, you're still in disagree. and that's anti bible.... Amos 3:3 "Can two walk together, except they be agreed?" so it's our walk. U, on the Broad and wide road, 101G, the narrow path. but don't worry you have a lot of company.... :rolleyes:



PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 

Ronald David Bruno

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Does the scripture 2Peter 3: 7,10 mean that the literal planet Earth is to be consumed by fire
Yes, many scholars agree. One in particular I have learned much from is John MacArthur. He has a teaching on this subject - if you have an hour, it's very thorough. Simple he points out that the earth was destroyed with a flood and in the future the universe will be completely destroyed by fire.

None of these scriptures conflict with the final Judgment.
"Thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." It will be done. The Millennial Kingdom is yet to come.
"The righteous will inherit the land"
And dwell in it forever." That is true, the Millennial kingdom. However the word translated for forever, everlasting is aionios. This also means lifetimes, ages, epochs when applied to the temporal physical realm. --("age- lasting, age-during".) When it is applied to God and His domain or our salvation, then it means eternal.
"He established the earth upon its foundations,
So that it will not totter forever and ever." Concerning a temporal physical realm, this means ages and ages.

At Genesis 11:1, First Kings 2:1, 2, First Chronicles 16:31, Psalm 96:1, etc., the term “earth” is used in a figurative sense, referring to mankind, to human society. I believe that's the case at 2 Peter 3:7, 10.
Nope.

Note that, in the context, at 2 Peter 3:5, 6 and also 2:5, 9, a parallel is drawn with the Flood of Noah’s day, in which wicked human society was destroyed, but Noah and his household, as well as the globe itself, were preserved. Likewise, at 2 Peter 3:7 it says that the ones to be destroyed are “ungodly men.” The view that “the earth” here refers to wicked human society fully agrees with the rest of the Bible, as is illustrated by the scriptures cited above. It is that symbolic “earth,” or wicked human society, that is “discovered”; that is, Jehovah will sear away as by fire all disguise, exposing the wickedness of ungodly human society and showing it to be worthy of complete destruction. That wicked society of humans is also “the first earth,” referred to at Revelation 21:1 (KJ).
“Lift up your eyes to the sky,
Then look to the earth beneath;
For the sky will vanish like smoke,
And the earth will wear out like a garment
And its inhabitants will die in like manner;
But My salvation will be forever,
And My righteousness will not wane." Isaiah 51:6


"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away." Mark 13:31

“Of old You founded the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
“Even they will perish, but You endure;
And all of them will wear out like a garment;
Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed." Psalm 102:25-26


At Revelation 21:4
God] will wipe out every tear from their eyes.” (Revelation 21:4) What kind of tears will he wipe out? Neither tears of joy nor the tears that protect our eyes. God’s promise refers to tears caused by suffering and sorrow. God will not merely dry off such tears; he will wipe them out completely by removing the causes of unwanted tears—suffering and sorrow.
It is an interesting thought that once we get to heaven, why would He have to wipe away tears, in a perfect place? Since there won't be sin and death, pain or suffering, what could it be when we first arrive? Well, the only thing I came up with is the reality that some love ones didn't make it there. I have often thought the the only way my mom or my brother (an atheist) would come to the Lord would have to be that they experienced a Great Tribulation period, which I believe we are in. If a cataclysmic event happened in the next few years and they died and I died, I would naturally be curious if they made it ( somehow in the last moments of their deaths they turned to God and repented)? If they are not, I would cry. These tears, He would wipe away. How? Maybe the memory of all the past would be wiped out, for there would be many memories of evil that would not harmonize with heaven ... not be allowed.

“Death will be no more.” (Revelation 21:4) What has caused more unwanted tears than the enemy death? Jehovah will release obedient humans from the grip of death. How? By eliminating the real cause of death: sin inherited from Adam. (Romans 5:12) Jehovah will lift obedient humans to perfection on the basis of Jesus’ ransom sacrifice. Then the last enemy, death, will be “brought to nothing.” (1 Corinthians 15:26) Faithful humans will be able to live as God purposed for them to live—forever in perfect health.

“Neither will . . . pain be anymore.” (Revelation 21:4) What kind of pain will be no more? All the mental, emotional, and physical pain that has resulted from sin and imperfection and made life miserable for countless millions will be no more.

A life without tears, death, and pain will soon be a reality. ‘But where?’ you may ask. ‘Is God’s promise perhaps about life in heaven?’ No. Consider why not. First, the promise is introduced with the words “the tent of God is with mankind,” and mankind lives on earth. (Revelation 21:3) Second, the promise describes a world where “death will be no more”—a world where death once existed but will cease to exist. Death has never existed in heaven, but it has had a long existence here on earth. Clearly, then, God’s promise of a better life will be fulfilled right here on earth.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Yes, many scholars agree. One in particular I have learned much from is John MacArthur. He has a teaching on this subject - if you have an hour, it's very thorough. Simple he points out that the earth was destroyed with a flood and in the future the universe will be completely destroyed by fire.


None of these scriptures conflict with the final Judgment.
"Thy kingdom come thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." It will be done. The Millennial Kingdom is yet to come.
"The righteous will inherit the land"
And dwell in it forever." That is true, the Millennial kingdom. However the word translated for forever, everlasting is aionios. This also means lifetimes, ages, epochs when applied to the temporal physical realm. --("age- lasting, age-during".) When it is applied to God and His domain or our salvation, then it means eternal.
"He established the earth upon its foundations,
So that it will not totter forever and ever."
Concerning a temporal physical realm, this means ages and ages.


Nope.


“Lift up your eyes to the sky,
Then look to the earth beneath;
For the sky will vanish like smoke,
And the earth will wear out like a garment
And its inhabitants will die in like manner;
But My salvation will be forever,
And My righteousness will not wane." Isaiah 51:6

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away." Mark 13:31

“Of old You founded the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
“Even they will perish, but You endure;
And all of them will wear out like a garment;
Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed." Psalm 102:25-26



It is an interesting thought that once we get to heaven, why would He have to wipe away tears, in a perfect place? Since there won't be sin and death, pain or suffering, what could it be when we first arrive? Well, the only thing I came up with is the reality that some love ones didn't make it there. I have often thought the the only way my mom or my brother (an atheist) would come to the Lord would have to be that they experienced a Great Tribulation period, which I believe we are in. If a cataclysmic event happened in the next few years and they died and I died, I would naturally be curious if they made it ( somehow in the last moments of their deaths they turned to God and repented)? If they are not, I would cry. These tears, He would wipe away. How? Maybe the memory of all the past would be wiped out, for there would be many memories of evil that would not harmonize with heaven ... not be allowed.

All these things you said I've heard before. The thing is, I've always believed God is love. Those three words, "God is love" tells me much about the True God. Like for instance, when God created the first human Adam, and placed him on earth in the garden of Eden, it's was God's will for humans to multiply and fill the earth and to live forever on earth. You will find no scriptures that show that God wanted Adam to eat the forbidden fruit and die. Although a serpent who actually was an Angel using a serpent, who became Satan the Devil cause Adam to sin therefore die, that doesn't mean God has been defeated from his original purpose for humans to live on this planet forever without anyone dying for the whole planet to be a paradise. Since I know it wasn't Gods will for humans to die, that tells me that God created the physical universe to exist forever since God put humans on earth and it wasn't his will or his purpose for them to live for a temporary time on earth then die.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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All these things you said I've heard before. The thing is, I've always believed God is love. Those three words, "God is love" tells me much about the True God. Like for instance, when God created the first human Adam, and placed him on earth in the garden of Eden, it's was God's will for humans to multiply and fill the earth and to live forever on earth. You will find no scriptures that show that God wanted Adam to eat the forbidden fruit and die. Although a serpent who actually was an Angel using a serpent, who became Satan the Devil cause Adam to sin therefore die, that doesn't mean God has been defeated from his original purpose for humans to live on this planet forever without anyone dying for the whole planet to be a paradise. Since I know it wasn't Gods will for humans to die, that tells me that God created the physical universe to exist forever since God put humans on earth and it wasn't his will or his purpose for them to live for a temporary time on earth then die.

So you think the sun will never burn out? Don't want get off track here but let's consider your view.
God is love - no doubt. But He also is a God of justice and sin will be judged. That of course does necessitate destroying the earth.
But would He save the earth though? Sin not only corrupts man, it corrupted the earth. The earth is infected with this imperfection, distortion down to the cells. Everything that lives, dies because of the original sin. Now when the Millennial Kingdom comes at least animals will be in harmony. Will it be a perfect world, no. Life will last longer, but death is still there. God would have to completely redo earth. "Behold, I make all things new". This works with "all former things will pass away". So it will be a new earth without death.
Back to the Garden - it wasn't perfect when the obvious potential of evil entering it was a target temptation . GOD PUT THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL IN THE GARDEN AND KNEW THEY WOULD EAT OF IT. HE ALSO ALLOWED SATAN IN THERE.
We had to know evil to really appreciate and understand what good is. We could not know what mercy, forgiveness, joy, blessings, healing, hope, faith, love and anything good unless we were exposed to their opposites. We choose to do these things and that makes our actions more valuable because we do them willingly. We love God willingly. And when He blesses us, pulls us out of danger, sickness, fear and gives us comfort, healing, provisions, we cherish and appreciate it.
 
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Bible_Gazer

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The first world is Adam and Eve and their offspring's - All in Adam will die. I Cor. 15
The new world will be all in Christ(born again new creature 1Cor 5:17) - All will live forever

1stAdam's family type will be done away with, either be killed or converted(born again), no more babies.
God told Adam to replenish the earth, not the physical planet, but themselves because they were going to die.
Without children they Messiah would not come

1john 2:15-17 says this world will pass away - not earth - but sinful mankind

There will be a new world(new heaven and earth condition) on this planet Earth, this is how I see it for now.
 

Timtofly

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How then are we a new creation and the new Jerusalem is our mother???
Different context totally. Do you call the Garden of Eden mother? Do you brag like Adam, Eve is the mother of all? This contradicts Genesis 1:26-28.
 
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Berserk

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One inference can be drawn: the "new earth" is not a remodeled present earth. The old earth "has passed away." Our earth is 3/4 water, So the fact "there is no sea" on the "new earth" suggests a different planet altogether. Also, Jesus teaches that "the kingdom of God does not come with signs to be observed; nor will they say, "Look, here it is, or there." If the new Jersusalem were established on our earth, that would be observab;e as ot developed. So I think the new earth will not be a new planet in our universe, but rather an earthlike spiritual realm in a spiritual dimension.
 

Ronald Nolette

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old heaven and earth are burned up at the end but the new are the bride the church

Matt 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


The new is a new earth planet and new universe! Just like the bible says.
 

Ronald Nolette

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All these things you said I've heard before. The thing is, I've always believed God is love. Those three words, "God is love" tells me much about the True God. Like for instance, when God created the first human Adam, and placed him on earth in the garden of Eden, it's was God's will for humans to multiply and fill the earth and to live forever on earth. You will find no scriptures that show that God wanted Adam to eat the forbidden fruit and die. Although a serpent who actually was an Angel using a serpent, who became Satan the Devil cause Adam to sin therefore die, that doesn't mean God has been defeated from his original purpose for humans to live on this planet forever without anyone dying for the whole planet to be a paradise. Since I know it wasn't Gods will for humans to die, that tells me that God created the physical universe to exist forever since God put humans on earth and it wasn't his will or his purpose for them to live for a temporary time on earth then die.


Well you were going real biblical till the end.

Scripture is clear that after the 1,000 yeare kingdom which th eWatchtower tells you is symbolic since Jesus established HIs kingdom reign in 1874, oops then in 1931 they changed it to 1914.

But after that kingdom when Satan is loosed from the abyss one more time- it says just like in Peter that teh old heaven and earth will be no more and a new heaven and earth will exist for eternity!
 

Ronald Nolette

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I've told you about how I believe about such scriptures as Revelation 21:23 before but I know you're not going to agree so you and I will have to agree to disagree. I'm not going to repeat the same information to you and I'm not going to agree with the same information you're saying to me. We're not going to agree so you and I need to move on.


As a practicing Jehovahjs Witness, you know that close to 99% of people here are going to disagree with Watchtower eschatology and most of Watchtower doctrine! I think you are intelligent enough to know that. So why are you posting when you know people here are going to show the Watchtower has re-translated teh clear teaching of Scripture to suit the old Arian heresies?
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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So you think the sun will never burn out? Don't want get off track here but let's consider your view.
God is love - no doubt. But He also is a God of justice and sin will be judged. That of course does necessitate destroying the earth.
But would He save the earth though? Sin not only corrupts man, it corrupted the earth. The earth is infected with this imperfection, distortion down to the cells. Everything that lives, dies because of the original sin. Now when the Millennial Kingdom comes at least animals will be in harmony. Will it be a perfect world, no. Life will last longer, but death is still there. God would have to completely redo earth. "Behold, I make all things new". This works with "all former things will pass away". So it will be a new earth without death.
Back to the Garden - it wasn't perfect when the obvious potential of evil entering it was a target temptation . GOD PUT THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL IN THE GARDEN AND KNEW THEY WOULD EAT OF IT. HE ALSO ALLOWED SATAN IN THERE.
We had to know evil to really appreciate and understand what good is. We could not know what mercy, forgiveness, joy, blessings, healing, hope, faith, love and anything good unless we were exposed to their opposites. We choose to do these things and that makes our actions more valuable because we do them willingly. We love God willingly. And when He blesses us, pulls us out of danger, sickness, fear and gives us comfort, healing, provisions, we cherish and appreciate it.

You said to me, "So you think the sun will never burn out?" Isn't this showing me you have no faith. What I mean is, you believe God can create possibly billions of suns but the True God can't sustain these suns from burning out because according to you the True God can create our sun but he doesn't have the power or ability to keep it from burning out. Yeah right, like I'm going to believe that just because you and others do. You keep believing that God can't keep our sun from burning out, I'll believe the truth, that God can make sure that this part of his creation, the physical universe, including our planet from destroying itself.

You also said that God is a God not only of love but of justice and sin will be judged. That of course does necessitate destroying the earth.
It's true that the True God is a God of not only love but also justice and sin will be judged but the scriptures tell us that the punishment for sin is death, but this is talking about humans born in sin, it's not talking about our planet. I've seen nothing in the scriptures that says it's necessary for our planet and the physical universe to be destroyed for justice to be attained by what Adam and Eve did when they sinned.

You said, GOD PUT THE TREE OF KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL IN THE GARDEN AND KNEW THEY WOULD EAT OF IT. HE ALSO ALLOWED SATAN IN THERE.
I've seen nowhere in scripture that God knew that Adam was going to eat of the forbidden tree before he even created Adam. I don't believe this because I don't believe God asks us to do the impossible. If God knew Adam was going to eat from the forbidden fruit before creating him then when God commanded Adam to not eat from the forbidden fruit, he was commanding Adam to do something that was impossible for him to obey. Once God looks into the future to see something is going to happen, like before God created Adam, then what God saw was going to happen before he created Adam, that's what is going to happen, it can't be stopped not even by mans freewill can it be stopped. So if God looked into the future before creating Adam, seeing that he would eat of the forbidden fruit, then Adam could make no choice except what choice God saw Adam make before creating him. That means you're saying by the way you believe that God commanded Adam to make an impossible choice when he commanded him to make the choice of not eating of the forbidden fruit. Like I said I don't believe God commands us to make impossible choices.


You said we had to know evil to really appreciate and understand what good is. We could not know what mercy, forgiveness, joy, blessings, healing, hope, faith, love and anything good unless we were exposed to their opposites. You are in error here. It wasn't God will for Adam to sin and die but by what you're saying here you're saying that God did want Adam to sin and die because according to you the way God created or designed us is that he wanted Adam to sin and die because that's the only way we could truly understand what good, mercy, forgiveness, joy, blessings, healing, hope, faith, love are. This is a lie. Adam knew what joy, happiness, mercy, faith, love and mercy was, simply by the evidence that God had given him life and not only life but God created him with a body that he could enjoy life abundantly. You think that Adam couldn't have known what a blessing it was, that the True God had given him life, had given him a beautiful home, satisfying work. You think that Adam couldn't have known how merciful God was by the fact that the True God had given him life. You think that the only way to have hope and faith in the True God is by being disobedient. With all the evidence around Adam, the fact he had life and the fact that the True God had given him a body to enjoy life abundantly that the True God had given him a beautiful home with plenty of food you think that Adam couldn't exercise faith in the True God because of all this evidence around him. Adam should have exercised faith by all this evidence around him of what the True God had done that whatever the True God commanded to do or not do he would know it was in his best interest to be obedient to the True God because he would understand that God knew what was good or evil for what the True God created. The True God certainly have enough evidence to Adam that he could exercise that kind of faith. Adam didn't have to be disobedient to understand what good is or to know what mercy, forgiveness, joy, blessings, healing, hope, faith, love and anything good. Adam didn't have to be unfaithful or disobedient to understand these things.


It is evident that God sets the standard as to what is good and what is bad; it is not within man’s prerogative to do so apart from God. Although Adam transgressed God’s express law, this transgression is not chargeable to Jehovah, “for with evil things [form of ka·kosʹ] God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone. But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire.”—Jas 1:13, 14; Ge 2:16, 17; 3:17-19
 
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BARNEY BRIGHT

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Well you were going real biblical till the end.

Scripture is clear that after the 1,000 yeare kingdom which th eWatchtower tells you is symbolic since Jesus established HIs kingdom reign in 1874, oops then in 1931 they changed it to 1914.

But after that kingdom when Satan is loosed from the abyss one more time- it says just like in Peter that teh old heaven and earth will be no more and a new heaven and earth will exist for eternity!

Shows you don't know what the watchtower says and because you don't know what they teach, aren't you spreading lies about them? The watchtower doesn't teach the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ is symbolic or that the Messianic kingdom is symbolic they teach that the Messianic kingdom is a heavenly kingdom. They teach that the 1000 year reign is a literal thousand years but Jesus is ruling in that heavenly Messianic kingdom ruling over the Earth from heaven during that literal thousand years. This is reasonable to me since Jesus said right before his death that the world wouldn't see him anymore but those of the anointed which at that time was the Apostles and disciples would see him and true to what Jesus said after Jesus was resurrected no unbelievers saw Jesus. Only Jesus Apostles and disciples saw Jesus after his resurrection. So it's understandable that the Messianic kingdom is a heavenly kingdom and the only ones who will actually literally see Jesus when he starts ruling in that heavenly Messianic kingdom are those who have been bought from among Mankind to be in heaven with Jesus ruling with him in that heavenly Messianic kingdom.
Now as to the years you're speaking about when the watchtower thought that Jesus started ruling in that heavenly Messianic kingdom, have they made errors when they said it began in 1874 or 1931 yes, but then got they got it right by stating that the time of the Gentiles ended in 1914 so since the times of the Gentiles ended in 1914 Jesus stood up in heaven and began ruling in that heavenly Messianic kingdom.
How you and others feel about the mistakes the watchtower makes I could care less. You know why, I think the watchtower to consist of imperfect humans like any other organization. You may think you're infallible like God and believe you can't be wrong about the things you say are scriptural but you're not going to convince me of that. I believe that you're an imperfect human like everyone else on the planet and you have the right to interpret the scriptures as you feel they should be interpreted and express that believe but that doesn't mean you're right in how you interpret the scriptures. You're not infallible you can honestly believe you are interpreting the scriptures correctly and still be wrong. So you go ahead and judge another organization all you want I'll recognize that I'm just another imperfect human who shouldn't be judging any person or organization because they disagree with me.