The Last Trumpet Is Not The Seventh Trumpet.

teleiosis · Sep 18, 2010

Christina: to be totally open about my position: I am Pre-Wrath.

1. Pre-Trib hopes to escape the one 'seven' which they mis-label as the "Tribulation Period." I don't think that is the case. While they take a literal approach to Bible interpretation, all of their "proof" verses have to be taken figuratively. Meanwhile, they have to jump through hoops of exegesis in order to put together an eschatology which escapes those passges and verses which point to our being in the one 'seven.' As a belief structure, theirs is the most comfortable, and it is the most numerous among Christians.

2.Post-Trib is mostly "last day" of the one 'seven' which I think is incorrect. We cannot know the Day Jesus comes. As I delineated with the start of this thread, I can show Biblically why the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath is not the Last Trumpet calling the Church. There are two Trumpets for the Church, the First and the Last; the First Trumpet sounded nearly 2000 years ago on the Festival of First Fruits and the Holy Spirit swept through the believers assembled with the Apostles. Paul connected the "last day" of the Church Age to the Festival of Trumpets which is the Returning Anew of Rosh ha-Shanah. There are seven Trumpets which announce the desolations God has decreed. We are not to incur God's Wrath. I posted the verses which establish this fact. The seventh Trumpet is never called the "Last Trumpet" by John. John knows his Trumpets and he, as a Jew, knows the Last Trumpet, as a named Trumpet, begins the Festival of Trumpets which includes many different kinds of Trumpets over two days of one single Holy Day.

3. I have a very low opinion of Preterism, both full and partial. Not only can they not show what has been foretold to come to pass is past, what they point to as the worst time ever wasn't.

4. Amillennialism has to literally ignore whole books and passages in the Bible. One book I have from an Amillennial author started out by throwing out the books of Daniel and Revelation. Concentrating solely on the Epistles, he made the argument that we are living in the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God, as a distinct time or place is not defined in the Bible... I know, I've studied it. I don't think we can peg it to a date like we can July 2nd (not the 4th) 1776, or a place like America or even Israel. The Kingdom of God exists in Heaven, within the believer, and it will be done on Earth in the Millennium - somewhat, as man rebels once more against God at the end if I read Revelation literally. The Kingdom of God is not yet, and yet is eternal and already exists. I just don't think we're winning the world for Christ now. Who's going to do that? The Pope?

5. I think Post-Millennialists are starry-eyed idealists. I do not think we can usher in God's Kingdom. We are not that powerful.

6. Historic Pre-Millennialism is close to the mark, but we literally don't have enough information on it since most of the writings are so ancient. Furthermore, you can't "argue" with them. I do not think the first take is absolutely the best, but I do think they got a lot of stuff right which is amazing by itself. However, none of the second through fourth century Church leaders and writers had a clue that there would ever be anything like the Industrial Revolution, how Capitalism would come to rule the world, the rise of nationalism, or even that immigration policies would degrade to the point that nations would no longer be comprised of a single nationality. They certainly had no idea that a country like America would ever be formed which threw away all class lines, much less even knew of a land beyond the horizon of the Mediterranean world.

Pre-Wrath is post Great Tribulation. We (you and I) share that aspect of our eschatology. Pre-Wrath also has the Rapture before God's Wrath, so we escape that aspect of the one 'seven' which is a little like Pre-Trib, but not much. I did not start out Pre-Wrath, but I ended up there as a result of my looking at the sequence-of-events laid out in the major linear prophetic narratives.

For us to pin what the "falling away" is, goes back to my post about the Greek word and it is anything which goes against the Laws God has established, the first being worship. Not only is the 'ruler who will come' the anti-Christ, the Bible teaches us that there are many kinds of anti-Christs. In that regard, whatever you place your faith in, if it is not the God of Isaac and Abraham, serves as an anti-Christ. This then includes such diverse things as: technology, being "green," socialism, Marxism, Capitalism, 401-K's, materialism or anything anyone trusts to "save" them. It can also include putting your faith in politicians or either stripe; and plenty of people adopted a worshipping adoration towards Barack Hussein Obama, and he, much like the 'ruler who will come' will do, actually promoted a messianic portrayal of himself. All that nonsense made me want to puke.

Now as to various Rapture doctrines, I will always go back to the Bible and I will rest with my analysis as providing not a date, but just a general sequence-of-events which allows me to know when the time is ripe. As of right now, the one 'seven' hasn't started: there is no Temple. However, I have been watching, and I know thing like the Quartet and the Roadmap are seeking to start the one 'seven' covenant. I also know the Sanhedrin has re-instituted itself and they are actively stockpiling materials and objects so as to resume Temple sacrifice on the Temple Mount.

So I think we are on the cusp, but I can't tell when the one 'seven' will start. Even then, we're in for a long road until Jesus returns anew with the Last Trumpet, which as incredible as it may sound to you; sounds before the first Trumpet of God's Wrath. We are "outta here" at the sixth Seal Day of the Lord - whenever that comes after the midpoint abomination and Great Tribulation.

Mark

veteran · Sep 19, 2010

teleiosis said:
Christina: to be totally open about my position: I am Pre-Wrath.

1. Pre-Trib hopes to escape the one 'seven' which they mis-label as the "Tribulation Period." I don't think that is the case. While they take a literal approach to Bible interpretation, all of their "proof" verses have to be taken figuratively. Meanwhile, they have to jump through hoops of exegesis in order to put together an eschatology which escapes those passges and verses which point to our being in the one 'seven.' As a belief structure, theirs is the most comfortable, and it is the most numerous among Christians.

2.Post-Trib is mostly "last day" of the one 'seven' which I think is incorrect. We cannot know the Day Jesus comes. As I delineated with the start of this thread, I can show Biblically why the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath is not the Last Trumpet calling the Church. There are two Trumpets for the Church, the First and the Last; the First Trumpet sounded nearly 2000 years ago on the Festival of First Fruits and the Holy Spirit swept through the believers assembled with the Apostles. Paul connected the "last day" of the Church Age to the Festival of Trumpets which is the Returning Anew of Rosh ha-Shanah. There are seven Trumpets which announce the desolations God has decreed. We are not to incur God's Wrath. I posted the verses which establish this fact. The seventh Trumpet is never called the "Last Trumpet" by John. John knows his Trumpets and he, as a Jew, knows the Last Trumpet, as a named Trumpet, begins the Festival of Trumpets which includes many different kinds of Trumpets over two days of one single Holy Day.

Sounds like you might be a bit confused, because a Pre-Wrath position is belief on being gathered to Christ on the "last day", with Christ's wrath coming immediately afterwards. You've shown you believe the time of Christ's coming and our gathering to be PRIOR to the 7th trumpet, and that IS a form of the PRE-TRIB POSITION, not a Pre-Wrath postion.

The 7th trumpet is when Christ comes to gather His saints, and pour out His cup of wrath upon the wicked. That is shown in the Rev.11:14-19 Scripture, even though you chose to deny it. And that 7th trumpet IS the "last trump" Paul mentioned, because there's only 7 trumpets given by our Lord in His Revelation. It is the same trump given in 1 Thess.4 about Christ's coming our gathering too. Both the 1 Thess.4 and the 1 Cor.15 trumps are about the time of the raising of the dead, i.e., the resurrection. That's only for the time of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him.

4. Amillennialism has to literally ignore whole books and passages in the Bible. One book I have from an Amillennial author started out by throwing out the books of Daniel and Revelation. Concentrating solely on the Epistles, he made the argument that we are living in the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God, as a distinct time or place is not defined in the Bible... I know, I've studied it. I don't think we can peg it to a date like we can July 2nd (not the 4th) 1776, or a place like America or even Israel. The Kingdom of God exists in Heaven, within the believer, and it will be done on Earth in the Millennium - somewhat, as man rebels once more against God at the end if I read Revelation literally. The Kingdom of God is not yet, and yet is eternal and already exists. I just don't think we're winning the world for Christ now. Who's going to do that? The Pope?

Yes we can know what the kingdom of God distinction in The Bible means. It's about the third Heaven that you don't understand.

Pre-Wrath

Click to expand...

is post Great Tribulation. We (you and I) share that aspect of our eschatology. Pre-Wrath also has the Rapture before God's Wrath, so we escape that aspect of the one 'seven' which is a little like Pre-Trib, but not much. I did not start out Pre-Wrath, but I ended up there as a result of my looking at the sequence-of-events laid out in the major linear prophetic narratives.

Right, Pre-Wrath is post great tribulation. But your idea of escaping that "one seven" moves your belief to a PRE-TRIB RAPTURE BELIEF. Why? Because the tribulation begins on the "one seven" and ends right after that "one seven". Your reference to the final "one week" of Daniel as a "one seven" is misleading anyway.

For us to pin what the "falling away" is, goes back to my post about the Greek word and it is anything which goes against the Laws God has established, the first being worship. Not only is the 'ruler who will come' the anti-Christ, the Bible teaches us that there are many kinds of anti-Christs. In that regard, whatever you place your faith in, if it is not the God of Isaac and Abraham, serves as an anti-Christ. This then includes such diverse things as: technology, being "green," socialism, Marxism, Capitalism, 401-K's, materialism or anything anyone trusts to "save" them. It can also include putting your faith in politicians or either stripe; and plenty of people adopted a worshipping adoration towards Barack Hussein Obama, and he, much like the 'ruler who will come' will do, actually promoted a messianic portrayal of himself. All that nonsense made me want to puke.

The false one Apostle Paul pointed to in 2 Thess.2 that will cause the 'falling away' (apostasia) of many is very easy to grasp. It's also very singular in tense, and not at all about the idea of many antichrists. John gave two clauses with the word antichrist, and the first clause was singular, not plural. And there are NOT many KINDS of antichrists, for John defined that for us too. It's about anyone that denies God came in the flesh as Christ Jesus. There are all kinds of people who deny God came in the flesh, and they all deny the same Christ.

So I think we are on the cusp, but I can't tell when the one 'seven' will start. Even then, we're in for a long road until Jesus returns anew with the Last Trumpet, which as incredible as it may sound to you; sounds before the first Trumpet of God's Wrath. We are "outta here" at the sixth Seal Day of the Lord - whenever that comes after the midpoint abomination and Great Tribulation.

Mark

I am totally amazed by those who claim to be learned, and even appear to learned in God's Word, but simply don't know how to count. The last trumpet IS the 7th trumpet of Rev.11:15 and Rev.10. So you bet the false idea that the 7th last trumpet sounds prior to the 1st trumpet sounds incredible. It's because it is not so.

A - 1260 days period start, pact made, sacrifices start
B - midpoint, sacrifices end, placing of the abomination that maketh desolate
A - 1260 days great tribulation, all required to bow to false messiah's image
C - Christ's coming on the 7th last trumpet

teleiosis · Sep 19, 2010

veteran said:
Sounds like you might be a bit confused, because a Pre-Wrath position is belief on being gathered to Christ on the "last day", with Christ's wrath coming immediately afterwards. You've shown you believe the time of Christ's coming and our gathering to be PRIOR to the 7th trumpet, and that IS a form of the PRE-TRIB POSITION, not a Pre-Wrath postion.

I think you're confused.

Pre-Trib defines the one 'seven' as the "Tribulation Period." That time period is never defined by the Bible in such a manner, but it will be extremely distressing, first for us, and then for the wicked. In the end, man wil be a rarity upon the earth. Pre-Trib hopes for a Rapture before the one 'seven' even starts. I am NOT Pre-Trib.

The "tribulation" is only defined by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse and He defines it as the Great Tribulation.
The Great Tribulation starts at the abomination which understanding Daniel 9:27 as the marker, is at the midpoint of the one 'seven.'
The Great Tribulation is shortened by God.
The Great Tribulation effectively ends whenever God the Father times the sixth Seal sun/moon/star event.
Only after the Great Tribulation does a Pre-Wrath position hold that we are taken up.
Pre-Wrath IS Post-Trib = Post Great Tribulation.

Post-Trib like Pre-Trib attempts to define the whole of the one 'seven' as the "Tribulation Period."
The classical 19th century Post-Trib then says the "last day" is the last day of the one 'seven.'

- This goes against Jesus' statement of fact that not even He knows when the Day of the Lord will come.

Classical Post-Trib also counts the seven Trumpets of God's Wrath and says the seventh is the last trumpet.

- No where in Revelation does God the Father, Jesus or John ever say the seventh Trumpet is the Last Trumpet.
- Classical Post-Trib confuses different types of Trumpets as being all one and the same.

I have shown through my proof at the OP that the Last Trumpet is NOT the seventh Trumpet, but you just keep on with the typical TV-style debate of talking past each other in bumper-sticker slogans: Is too, is not, is too, is not.

The seventh Trumpet is not when Christ comes to gather His Saints. He does that on the Day of the Lord and that Day precedes the opening of the Scroll and the Wrath of God.

Pre-Wrath sets the Rapture after the Great Tribulation but before the Wrath of God.
Pre-Wrath does not set a date for the Rapture; Post-Trib does.

Martin W. · Sep 19, 2010

Some people think the timing of the trumpets has to do with them .

Some people think the timing of the trumpets is in their hands.

Some people think that The Creator , The God of Israel , makes these decisions.

People always want to represent God .

God says he does not require representation.

Arnie Madsen.

Surf Rider · Sep 20, 2010

teleiosis said:
Here, logically from Scripture, is why the Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath.

1. The Last Trumpet calls the Dead forth from Paradise (the ends of Heaven).

You state that the last trumpet calls the dead forth from paradise, and you then use 1 Cor. 15:51 to supstantiate that. However, it does not state that we will be called forth from paradise. It doesn't state at all where we will be called forth from. Now you can take another verse, "to be absent in the flesh is to be present with the Lord", and use that in conjunction with 1 Cor. 15:51 to gain your conclusion, but to merely gain your conclusion from 1 Cor. 15:51 is errant, for it does NOT state that we are called forth from anywhere, let alone paradise. To conclude that it is, is not rightly dividing the word of God. Perhaps the conclusion is correct. But the method of arriving at it is incorrect. That, in and of itself, makes the conclusion suspect until verified by other poritons of the word of God. This is a baic of logical analysis.

That being said, is the usage of the verse "to be absent....." (2 cor. 5:8) being applied here, is it correctly applied? Is the word of God being rightly divided with the usage of that verse in this application?

teleiosis said:
1Co 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

teleiosis said:

teleiosis said:
2. That happens on the Day of the Lord as Paul identifies it.

We have not addressed as to whether or not the first issue was accertained properly by the word of God, and I'll leave that to the posters who know the word so well. Now we have yet another assumption made: two events are assumed to be one and the same thing. Is that correct or not? The poster does not give substantiation for such a claim, just as was done with the first assumption. Again, this is faulty reasoning applied to the word of God. To argue before the data is to come to incorrect conclusions, no matter the subject matter. It is fully erroneous to have beliefs and then read them into specific verseses as support of said beliefs.

teleiosis said:
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

2TH 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

Again, we are seeing two separate passages used for support of an assumption. The assumption may be correct. It may not be correct. Is the changing of our bodies that same event that is being spoken of in the other passage? The two passages speak specifically of two different things, yet the OP assumes that they are one and the same thing. That is faulty logic.

teleiosis said:
On the Day of the Lord we will see the Dead in Christ rise first and then we who are still alive and are left will be caught up with them on the clouds. So we have two markers here which identify when Jesus is coming for us.

The gathering of Saints is on the Day of the Lord.

Jesus is on the clouds when He gathers those who are still alive and are left off the earth.

3. The Day of the Lord is when Jesus comes to get us. The Day of the Lord is identified by its signature Sun/moon/star sign:

MT 24:29 "Immediately after the distress of those days
" `the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'

MT 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Jesus uses the Sun/moon/star event from prophecy to identify the Day when He comes on the clouds to gather the Elect - just like Paul says in 1Th 4:16-17 which directly relates back to 1Co 15:52.

(For some reason, I can't get the two previous quotes and responses to separate. Sorry.)

It is intersting how the church has assumed certain things, and they build whole doctrines based upon assumptions. Let's look at that sun/moon/stars deal that is so loved by many.... (Joe 2:27) And you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am Jehovah your God, and no one else; and My people shall never be ashamed.

(Joe 2:28) And it shall be afterward, I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy; your old men shall dream dreams; your young men shall see visions.

(Joe 2:29) And also I will pour out My Spirit on the slaves and on the slave women in those days.

(Joe 2:30) And I will show wonders in the heavens, and in the earth, blood and fire and pillars of smoke.

(Joe 2:31) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of Jehovah.

(Joe 2:32) And it shall be, whoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be saved; for salvation shall be in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem, as Jehovah has said, and in the remnant whom Jehovah shall call.

Funny thing is, Peter, being filled with the Spirit, stated that that already occurred some 2000 years ago, at pentecost. And don't stop reading Joel at chapter 2, either, for it continues on into chapter three for that same time frame. And the law and the prophets cannot be broken. Or does it happen twice? Or three times? Who determines such things? Obviously not the word of God.

teleiosis said:
4. The specific and unique signature sign heralding the Day of the Lord is also revealed by Jesus to John for the sequence of the Day of the Lord in the Seal/Scroll vision given to John:

teleiosis said:
Rev 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.

Therefore, we can conclude that Day of the Lord happens at the breaking of the sixth Seal.

Who says? Again, when the very first premise of assumption is seen as being just that, an assumption, the rest that follows will also be faulty. One of the other posters saw this problem, and asked if there were multiple sets of trumpets, for obviously the coming of the Lord is before the last trumpet, (according to the OP), but the word of God states that it is at the last trumpet. This is a contradiction that one is blind to when they have twisted the word of God to their own fancies, ignoring such passages as Joel and Acts, which states that it already happened. Due to the belief of those who "rightly divide" the word of God for us being foisted upon the spiritually sequacious, we have believed it wholly, and must come to various beliefs such as multiple sets of trumpets, the church being raptured so that it wouldn't go through the tribulation because God wouldn't let His church go through it, yet somehow there are those who are converted in the tribulation and by very definition they are the church.... so God won't let the "mature" church go through the tribulation due to His love or whatever reason they dream up, but He will let His infant church go through it. Again, we see such siimple, insurrmountable contradictions by the popular belief system of most Christians, it's no small wonder that the unsaved mock us and don't want to be converted. I can't blame them. Multiple trumpet sets. The last trumpet not being the last trumpet. Different events being equated as the same thing. The events which took places already, as stated in the word of God, being said to be yet another event altogether. Not being able to count trumpets or days and nights for Easter (3 days and 3 nights, which negates the possibility of good FRIDAY).

Basic math skills that a 4 year old can do, we must ignore because it doens't fit our beliefs. Just like with Benjamin and the silver cup in his grain sack when the brothers had been to Egypt the second time for grain. We have all these stories taught in Sunday school by those who know the word of God and rightly divide it, and they even have the pictures for it, proving it to our children, that Benjamin was a lad, a boy at that time. Yet the word of God states that he had 10 sons at that time! Go look it up! 10 sons, and yet we have believed that Benjamin was a boy at that time.

It seems that we can't even get the simple things of the word of God correct.

And we have fully believed the lies of men that know not the word of God but are well educated in it, and such are so readily proven to be lies by the word of God alone.

If the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

From here on out, I will refrain from contining to show foundational error with the whole premise and thrust of the OP. There are two reasons for this: 1) that which was superficially mentioned already will not be gone through the word of God by most posters while they have set aside their pet beliefs, in order to ascertain the truth from the word of God alone, so what's the point?, and 2) if they do not believe that which is staring them in the face in the word of God already, they will not want to change, for that would mean admittance of error. Arrogance stands in the way of that. Rebellion. Witchcraft. Powerful words used in the word of God for certain situations that are strikingly similar. Such wisdom is not from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. Powerful words used in the word of God.

This gravely concerns me. I weep for my countrymen in Christ, that some of them would be taught by God for a change.

Have a great week.

teleiosis · Sep 20, 2010

Surf Rider: I will be busy until the end of the month, but finally someone has asked the hard questions I had wanted to field. When my schedule allows, in a little over a week, I will give you the response your post deserves. Until then, thank you for your input.

Surf Rider · Sep 20, 2010

teleiosis said:
Surf Rider: I will be busy until the end of the month, but finally someone has asked the hard questions I had wanted to field. When my schedule allows, in a little over a week, I will give you the response your post deserves. Until then, thank you for your input.

I'm looking forward to it, friend, and the learning that I might do in Christ through you.

veteran · Sep 21, 2010

teleiosis said:
I think you're confused.

Pre-Trib defines the one 'seven' as the "Tribulation Period." That time period is never defined by the Bible in such a manner, but it will be extremely distressing, first for us, and then for the wicked. In the end, man wil be a rarity upon the earth. Pre-Trib hopes for a Rapture before the one 'seven' even starts. I am NOT Pre-Trib.

I well know what I said, and what you said. You claim a rapture on or around the 6th seal. That means you think ALL ... the trumpets and ALL the vial events happen AFTER a rapture to Heaven.

You even decalred:
"The seventh Trumpet is not when Christ comes to gather His Saints. He does that on the Day of the Lord and that Day precedes the opening of the Scroll and the Wrath of God."

When IS... the opening of the scroll? It's when The Lamb starts removing the SEALS from it. So per YOUR description, that could mean even BEFORE the Seals are opened. That's a Pre-Trib view. But per God's Word, the day of The LORD and His wrath occur at the same time!

What you have missed are events of the saints on earth per Rev.7 that are sealed with God's sealing for a specific reason that was shown in Rev.9.

Rev 9:4
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
(KJV)

The locust army on the 5th Trumpet is commanded to torment only those that do NOT have the seal of God in their foreheads. Per your view, none of God's sealed saints could be on earth at that time, for they would have to be already raptured. But what is that verse indirectly saying? It's pointing to the locusts having to make a distinction between those on the earth that are not sealed vs. saints on earth who are sealed with God's seal. Ezekiel 9 is the OT pattern for that. Remember the angel with the inkhorn told to go seal God's servants in the forehead because of their sighing at all the abominations goin on?

Then there's the event of God's two witnesses that appear on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, which are to prophesy for 1260 days. And mentioned along with them are "two candlesticks".

In Rev.1:20, our Lord Jesus told us the seven candlesticks ARE the seven Churches. How is that NOT showing the Church is still present on earth during that 1260 days period with God's two witnesses? Will five Churches (candlesticks) be raptured while two other Churches (candlesticks) stay on earth to suffer that per your view? The whole Church is gathered at the time of Christ's coming, not parts of it.

That's not to mention that Rev.11:1-13 is revealing another temple in Jerusalem, with events pointing to the last half of the tribulation with the beast ascending up out of the bottomless pit.

Have you forgotten this also?

Rev 13:5-7
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
(KJV)

That's tribulation timing, and we're already WAY... past the seven seals! Yet the saints are still shown on earth there. How is that?

Rev 13:13-15
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
(KJV)

Those signs of that 'dragon' doing great wonders and miracles on earth to deceive with is the Matt.24 prophesy our Lord Jesus gave about a 'pseudo-Christ' coming to work wonders and signs on earth so poweful that if possible, it would even deceive His elect saints. It's also the prophecy of the saints of Rev.15 that overcome the image of the beast, also those on the 5th seal were told to rest yet for a while until their brethren and fellowservants on earth were also killed as they were. It is also the prophesy Apostle Paul gave in 2 Thess.2 about the false one who is to come to exalt himself over everything that is worshipped, so that he as God, sits in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God. Paul was stern that those events must occur on earth prior to the "day of Christ" and our gathering to Him.

Then on the 6th vial...

Rev 16:13-20
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Obviously the false prophet and beast and dragon are still on earth working evil through miracles on that 6th vial.

Then our Lord Jesus gives this warning on that 6th VIAL, but who is it for if the Church has already been raptured by this time?

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

Wait a minute. Didn't Apostle Paul link the time of Christ's coming with the day of The LORD, even as you have said? Yes, he did, in 1 Thess.5, and he also used that idea of Christ coming "as a thief" to show Christ's coming, as also did Peter in 2 Peter 3. That verse is Christ's command for us to be on watch for His coming. It is also one of the signs Christ gave in His Olivet discourse at the end of Matt.24! But what's that warning doing here, for this is 6th VIAL timing! I thought the Church was already 'raptured' at this point, which would surely have to mean Christ's coming "as a thief" would have had to already happen prior to this 6th Vial, right?

Did our Lord then give events on this 6th VIAL that parallel the 6th SEAL type events to show His coming at this point too? YES!!

16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Rev.19 gives another parallel to that Armageddon event of Christ coming on a white horse with His army to defeat Satan's host and kings on earth on the day of The LORD.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
(KJV)

Didn't we read about those similar events in bold back on the 6th SEAL also? Let's see...

Rev 6:12-17
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of Him That sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
(KJV)

Don't give us that baloney that Christ's Olivet discourse is the only Scripture in God's Word that defines the "great tribulation" period. There are many Bible references to that time, especially in our Lord's Book of Revelation. Likewise with the day of The LORD that occurs with Christ's coming and the time of His wrath. The OT prophets abound with information about it.

What you fail to see, is that you are actually pushing a Pre-Trib Rapture by treating Christ's coming and our gathering at the 6th SEAL while wrongly assuming the Church is in Heaven through all the Trumpets and Vials. The Pre-Trib school doesn't believe Christ comes on the 7th Trumpet either. They are mixed up about the Trumpets like you are, and also deny the 7th Trumpet is the "last trumpet."

Christ is not shown coming yet on the 6th TRUMPET, NOR on the 6th VIAL.

The Seals, Trumpets, and Vials are all PARALLEL VIEWS of the same events. The reason why their event descriptions differ slightly is to impart more information, more detail. The four Gospel Books do this parallel view also.

The original teaching of the Pre-Wrath position that I remember, is that they DO believe Christ comes on the 7th Trumpet, but then are 'raptured' to Heaven to escape God's wrath that they say comes right after that last trumpet. That's the old 'original' pre-wrath position of the early Church that I remember.

But that's NOT what you are teaching here. What you are preaching is more aligned with a Pre-Trib view. All you've tried to do is MOVE the end of the 'tribulation' to WAY BEFORE the 7th Trumpet. How? By not recognizing the tribulation events that are ALSO given within the final Trumpets and Vials.

veteran · Sep 21, 2010

Maybe a bit of a lesson is needed on how God's cup of wrath is linked to the same time as the day of the LORD?

Isa 2:10-21
10 Enter into the rock, and hide thee in the dust, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty.
11 The lofty looks of man shall be humbled, and the haughtiness of men shall be bowed down, and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
13 And upon all the cedars of Lebanon, that are high and lifted up, and upon all the oaks of Bashan,
14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,
15 And upon every high tower, and upon every fenced wall,
16 And upon all the ships of Tarshish, and upon all pleasant pictures.
17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
18 And the idols He shall utterly abolish.
19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty, when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
20 In that day a man shall cast his idols of silver, and his idols of gold, which they made each one for himself to worship, to the moles and to the bats;
21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of His majesty, when He ariseth to shake terribly the earth.
(KJV)

In that Isaiah 2 example, the day of the LORD happens at the same time as God's wrath upon the wicked.

Isa 13:6-13
6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.
13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of His fierce anger.
(KJV)

The BIG MESSAGE we are to glean from our LORD about that Day, is that when it happens, it's all over. All the wicked are subdued. NO MORE tribulation upon the saints, not even possible at that point in time.

Ezek 13:4-5
4 O Israel, thy prophets are like the foxes in the deserts.
5 Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
(KJV)

Don't think for one minute this is about the Jews and wrongly apply the idea of Jews only going through the tribulation. This is about the ten tribes of Israel, for they had been scattered out of the lands of Israel by that time. What's the Message? The prophets of the house of Israel (ten tribes) will be like foxes in the deserts in the last days, because they won't prepare the ten tribes to stand in the battle of the day of the LORD. How do we know for sure that is a prophecy for the end of days? Because the time of Christ's return and our gathering is also on that same day of the LORD (which I'll get to in a moment.)

Ezek 30:2-8
2 Son of man, prophesy and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Howl ye, Woe worth the day!
3 For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
4 And the sword shall come upon Egypt, and great pain shall be in Ethiopia, when the slain shall fall in Egypt, and they shall take away her multitude, and her foundations shall be broken down.
5 Ethiopia, and Libya, and Lydia, and all the mingled people, and Chub, and the men of the land that is in league, shall fall with them by the sword.
6 Thus saith the LORD; They also that uphold Egypt shall fall; and the pride of her power shall come down: from the tower of Syene shall they fall in it by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
7 And they shall be desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her cities shall be in the midst of the cities that are wasted.
8 And they shall know that I am the LORD, when I have set a fire in Egypt, and when all her helpers shall be destroyed.
(KJV)

That was a prophecy for when God sent the king of Babylon upon those nations of history; but does it also have an application for the end of days? Yes, for some of those nations are aligned against Israel in the end of days per Ezekiel 38 when they will come upon Israel on the last day, and then God will setup in and rain His fire, hail, and brimstone upon that great army that comes out of the northern quarters.

In any of these Bible descriptions of the day of the LORD events, are we able to separate the time of God's Wrath from them? NOPE. Not even a little bit.

When you hear or read the phrase, "the day of the LORD", you should immediately know God's cup of wrath upon the wicked goes along with it, and can't be separated.

Joel 2:1-18
1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.
4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.
5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.
6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.
7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:
8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.
9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
11 And the LORD shall utter His voice before His army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
12 Therefore also now, saith the LORD, turn ye even to Me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:
13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the LORD your God: for He is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth Him of the evil.
14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the LORD your God?
15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:
16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.
17 Let the priests, the ministers of the LORD, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O LORD, and give not Thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, "Where is their God?"
18 Then will the LORD be jealous for His land, and pity His people.
(KJV)

That first group of Joel 2 that devours a land that looks like Eden before, and they leave it a desolate wilderness after them is about the locust army of Joel 1, AND Revelation 9. God sends that great locust army upon the earth just prior to the "day of the LORD" event. Joel 1 shows that locust army is a "nation", a certain people that come upon God's people to devour in the end of days. That is tribulation timing folks. Christ does not come until "the day of the LORD" remember?

Joel 3:12-18
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of His people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, My holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
18 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of Judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the valley of Shittim.
(KJV)

The valley of Jehoshaphat is an area near Jerusalem. While those wicked are dealt with, at the same time God will be the hope of His people, His saints shown still on earth at that event. Why are they still on earth at that time? Because Christ doesn't return and gather His saints until that 'day', remember?

Zeph 1:14-18
14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of His jealousy: for He shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
(KJV)

In that example, "the day of the LORD" is also called "the day of the LORD's wrath". Can't separate that 'day' from its wrath factor just to try and say its delayed long enough for us to escape to Heaven.

OK, that should be enough. Well, one more for those who have got this far.

Zech 14:1-5
1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And His feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with Thee.
(KJV)

Per that view, that battle on the day of the LORD happens FIRST, and then we are gathered to Christ, not the other way around.

1Thes 5:2
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
(KJV)

Apostle Paul set "the day of the Lord" time also as the "thief in the night" event.

2 Pet 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
(KJV)

Peter also confirms that same timing, day of the Lord and thief in the night as same timing.

Matt 24:42-44
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus also set the time of His coming as that same 'thief in the night' timing.

Rev 16:15
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
(KJV)

Thus...

1. "day of the Lord"
2. cup of wrath
3. "thief in the night"
4. Christ's coming and our gathering
--------------------------------------------------
ALL SAME TIME EVENTS

teleiosis · Sep 21, 2010

Christina: It's really hard to talk with you because we have different ideas behind the same word which we use as a label. I literally don't have time to respond to you until next week, but in order to have a discussion about higher things, I think we need to discuss how we define basic things first.

teleiosis · Sep 28, 2010

Surf Rider said:
You state that the last trumpet calls the dead forth from paradise, and you then use 1 Cor. 15:51 to supstantiate that. However, it does not state that we will be called forth from paradise. It doesn't state at all where we will be called forth from. Now you can take another verse, "to be absent in the flesh is to be present with the Lord", and use that in conjunction with 1 Cor. 15:51 to gain your conclusion, but to merely gain your conclusion from 1 Cor. 15:51 is errant, for it does NOT state that we are called forth from anywhere, let alone paradise. To conclude that it is, is not rightly dividing the word of God. Perhaps the conclusion is correct. But the method of arriving at it is incorrect. That, in and of itself, makes the conclusion suspect until verified by other poritons of the word of God. This is a baic of logical analysis.

That being said, is the usage of the verse "to be absent....." (2 cor. 5:8) being applied here, is it correctly applied? Is the word of God being rightly divided with the usage of that verse in this application?

This is a very good point. The bigger theological issue I had to resolve in exploring eschatology and forming my opinion of it was: Where do we go when we die? There are two opinions:

1. We rest until the Day of the Lord and are called out at that time to be with the Lord.
2. We enter directly into His Presence individually when each of us dies.

To begin my appeal, the salient point of 1Co 15:52 is that the Dead in Christ are raised AND it is the only place where Paul uses the term: "Last Trumpet." From where is a product of my thinking from study and it was meant to be provocative and to illicit this type of question so as to delve into all the deeper issues surrounding the end-times.

What I notice in Paul's writing, when viewed chronologically in the order that it was written, is that his strongest eschatological pieces are three of his first four letters: First and Second Thessalonians (his first and second letters) and First Corinthians (his fourth). Paul is on fire, so to speak, eschatologically when he begins his ministry.

However, the evidence within those two letters, 1st and 2nd Thessalonians, is that Paul has trouble with those who hear his message. Paul even opens up that portion of his second letter to the Thessalonians around A.D. 51/52 with an admonishment not to be overly concerned by some report (they didn't have radio, TV, or the internet) that the Day of the Lord had already come from the first letter of A.D. 51 and a previous visit. He says:

2Th 2:2 ...(don't) become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.
5 Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?

By the time Paul comes to his fourth letter, and the first to the Corinthians in A.D. 55, he has spent two years with the Church in Ephesus (Acts 19:1-20:1), and he knows he has to keep it simple. He says:

1Co 3:1 Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly —mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.

Paul's eschatological message has one major difficulty: It is hard, solid food; a meat you have to chew. The simple people he is shepherding into his flock come out of their pagan culture and sin into Christian life; that is a hard enough transition. Paul wants to try to give them the hope he has in the future, yet they are having terrible difficulties just getting through each day so that to leap ahead to the end-times is downright confusing. In such an environment, the Gospel message is lost. I think Paul comes back to a first things first approach as his ministry evolves: personal salvation is needed before speaking about details of the first Resurrection are spelled out so as to be understood. Indeed, if he can lead people to Christ, Christ will save them on the last day no matter how they might or might not understand the process. That fact holds true for us today.

The people Paul are speaking to need basic instruction. They are new believers. They do not have centuries of Church history to grow up in as youths. Nor are they educated like we are. They are not scientifically trained; they probably don't have a complete Bible, or even a Concordance. None of the tools we use in our studies are available to them. They don't even have the opportunity to communicate like we do at a moment's notice and across hundreds of miles. There is no place for those who have the resources to 'put it all together' to even meet and discuss such serious issues.

We have to remember too that these people are bound by all kinds of superstitions and all kinds of pagan notions of what the afterlife will be like. They don't know how the world operates, what laws control how things work, or even how living organisms are designed to grow and work. They have no idea of a world beyond where their feet can take them; they have no idea of the Chinese dynasty which is flourishing at the same time, nor do they have any inkling that the Indian cultures in the Americas are just as sophisticated as their Roman world. They have no clue what nationalism is, nor that there ever will be an Industrial Revolution. If they want light at night, they need fire. If there is any mechanical work to be done, it is done by muscle power. These people are literally living in the dirt. Theirs is an agricultural life even in the cities. Procuring food is a daily enterprise, and nearly everybody knows how to butcher their own meat.

Paul, meanwhile, being educated as a Pharisee in the Temple, and being a peer to the Apostles and one of them, has his sight set on higher things. He starts writing about that future hope, based on an observer-true perspective of a believer on the earth at the time Jesus comes again for us here:

1Th 3:13 May he strengthen your hearts so that you will be blameless and holy in the presence of our God and Father when our Lord Jesus comes with all his holy ones.

Without much basis for a foundation in eschatology, Paul launches right into the meat of the matter:

1Th 4:13 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14 We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

Taken as a stand-alone verse, this does not settle the matter from where they are brought from when Jesus comes.

The answer comes in just a couple of sentences later:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Jesus comes down from Heaven WITHOUT the Dead in Christ. That fact is established first. Yet Jesus said the Elect will be gathered from the "ends of Heaven." Do we have an internal error in the Bible? NO!

What we have is a complicated situation.

Jesus comes down and calls out the "Dead in Christ" from the "ends of Heaven." This is not a physical address on the earth; you can't map it on Google maps. When these souls have been resurrected from the place where they rest (Paradise / Heaven) they, in their new immortal and imperishable bodies, come with Jesus, now on the clouds, to gather up those who remain and are still alive on the face of the earth because, as Paul taught in 1Co 15:52, not everyone will die before going to Heaven. Thus 1Th 3:13 is an observer-true vision for those who don't die on earth before going to Heaven.

The fact that Paul learns to teach a very simple eschatology to simple people who are babies in Christ ought not wipe out the fact that both Paul and Jesus said the "Dead in Christ" will be resurrected from the grave so as to be with Christ forever. So when Paul says this in his fifth letter written later in A.D. 55 (as he does years later in A.D. 61 writing from Rome to the Philippians):

2Co 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.

Paul is keeping it simple. He is going from the here and now to the eternal hereafter.

The complicated part is not just relegated to the New Testament. In the Old Testament, David produced a conundrum of the same sort as is shown in Acts:

Ac 2:29 "Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. 30 But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31 Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. 32 God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact. 33 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34 For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

" `The Lord said to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand

AC 2:35 until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet." '

So like us, David rests until called.

Likewise, Jesus said:

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Jesus said the Apostles would not be with Him until He comes back to get them. So how is it that we are with Him immediately when we die if we read Paul's message to simple people only?

The answer is: We "rest" until being called from a place in the Heavenly realm which is not in the third Heaven of God the Father's presence.

So while Paul taught a simple "here on earth now, in Heaven with Jesus later" message; that is quite inline with teaching simple people simple things. I have been banned from a Christian message board for saying that. They could not fathom Philippians 1:21 as being a simplification of a deeper truth.

So where do we go when we die?

I note that it is revealed that even the Martyrs are not in the presence of God the Father in Heaven in Revelation. They are underneath the floor of the Temple in Heaven. Only when the floor becomes like glass, do we even get a glimpse of them, and still, they are not brought out because at that time, their number is not yet complete.

The presence of the martyrs along with Paul's description of a man who went to the "third Heaven" gave me an idea: The martyrs were in the second Heaven. They literally are separated from God the Father and Jesus by a glass ceiling!

So what is the first Heaven?

The only view of the afterlife we get in the Bible comes from Jesus in Luke 16. In that story, which is not a parable, Jesus tells of Paradise and Hades, and He describes them as being separated by a chasm which may house the abyss.

It is important that when Jesus dies on the cross, that He tells the thief on His right that on that day, they will be in Paradise.

Jesus defines Paradise as a place where the righteous go when they die.

Jesus went into death. He was with the "captives" there. He brought "captives" with Him when He ascended from the grave to Heaven. When Jesus was with Mary shortly after His Resurrection, He said He had not yet seen His Father. This means Jesus went somewhere else than the third Heaven which I define as being in the presence of God the Father.

Now Jesus did take "captives" in His train when He went to Heaven. I think we see those men mentioned as "men wondered at" in Zechariah 3 when Jesus is "tried" in the Court of God with Satan as His accuser. It is at this trial that Satan is rebuked twice AND the sin that Jesus had been covered with was removed. THAT is the process by which God removes our sin.

Now I think those "men wondered at" are the same "Elders" John later sees at the end-times in Revelation. By the end, they most certainly will be "Elders" having been in Heaven in the presence of the Father for about 2000 years.

Jesus could not have taken the Church with Him when He first went to Heaven, because it was not until after the Ascension in Acts 1:9 that the Church Age even began.

Nor do we see the multitude of believers which comprise the Church through the centuries when John is first translated to the third Heaven of God's presence in Revelation 4:1 until the breaking of the sixth Seal.

So where are those righteous souls who will be resurrected on the Day of the Lord?
In Paradise, a realm of Heaven, and I would define it as the first Heaven.

That is why they are IN Heaven, yet not with Christ. They are in a different level of Heaven just like the martyrs. And because of the physical properties of Heaven, Jesus has to come to them and call them out so they can be with Him: John 14:3.

And my example for such a place is Luke 16:19-31.

(This does not discount other ways of looking at various levels of Heaven as being the sky, the universe, and then Heaven, but it is just a systematic way of constructing a way of looking at a realm beyond our personal knowledge which is an attempt to rectify seemingly incongruent Bible verses.)

Paul's message of life now/life with Jesus later is a simplified message for simple people. It is not untrue, it just leaves out the complicated part in the middle so as to avoid the whole resurrection of the dead complexity.

Mark

teleiosis · Sep 28, 2010

1. The Last Trumpet calls the Dead forth...

1Co 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

2. That happens on the Day of the Lord as Paul identifies it.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

2TH 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

On the Day of the Lord we will see the Dead in Christ rise first and then we who are still alive and are left will be caught up with them on the clouds. So we have two markers here which identify when Jesus is coming for us.

Surf Rider said:
We have not addressed as to whether or not the first issue was accertained properly by the word of God, and I'll leave that to the posters who know the word so well. Now we have yet another assumption made: two events are assumed to be one and the same thing. Is that correct or not? The poster does not give substantiation for such a claim, just as was done with the first assumption. Again, this is faulty reasoning applied to the word of God. To argue before the data is to come to incorrect conclusions, no matter the subject matter. It is fully erroneous to have beliefs and then read them into specific verseses as support of said beliefs.

I'm a little confused that these two events must be assumed to be one and the same.

Both passages are speaking about the end-times we still await; their context is the same.
Both passages speak about the last trumpet / trumpet call of God.
Both passages speak specifically are speaking about the resurrection of the "Dead in Christ."
And in the context of Jesus coming and gathering us up, which was detailed in Paul's first letter, Paul says this is the Day of the Lord.

So I have two complete parallels between the two passages and they come in the same order.
Furthermore, the coming of Christ is said to be coincidental with the Day of the Lord.
And this is not the only passage in the Bible which speaks of the coming of Christ Jesus and the subsequent gathering of the Elect happens on the Day of the Lord.

Not to be contentious, but I think we can draw the conclusion that these first two statements are indeed linked.

bud02 · Sep 28, 2010

After reading from page three this is the best observed comment I have read. It should always be remembered and used as the foundational basis of interpreting scripture.
Not so much the personal salvation part, but what happened to man as far as God was concerned. It was finished. All that is left is to let the crop ripen, harvest and clean up the chaff. I assure you all any fouled foundation, mistaken times, confusion about unfulfilled prophesy, all the way back to the very basic concept of what was completed at the cross will affect your ability to properly understand. You can pound on the puzzle pieces all you like, but they will never fit if your foundation is flawed. Most of you can't even agree on the basics.

teleiosis said:
Paul's eschatological message has one major difficulty: It is hard, solid food; a meat you have to chew. The simple people he is shepherding into his flock come out of their pagan culture and sin into Christian life; that is a hard enough transition. Paul wants to try to give them the hope he has in the future, yet they are having terrible difficulties just getting through each day so that to leap ahead to the end-times is downright confusing. In such an environment, the Gospel message is lost. I think Paul comes back to a first things first approach as his ministry evolves: personal salvation is needed before speaking about details of the first Resurrection are spelled out so as to be understood. Indeed, if he can lead people to Christ, Christ will save them on the last day no matter how they might or might not understand the process. That fact holds true for us today.

Just when I start to have confidence you go and get puffed up in your flesh. Now I believe that knowledge shall increase in the last days. But lean not unto your own understanding.

Pr 3: [sup]
5[/sup] Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
[sup]6[/sup] In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.
[sup]7[/sup] Do not be wise in your own eyes;

The people Paul are speaking to need basic instruction. They are new believers. They do not have centuries of Church history to grow up in as youths. Nor are they educated like we are. They are not scientifically trained; they probably don't have a complete Bible, or even a Concordance. None of the tools we use in our studies are available to them. They don't even have the opportunity to communicate like we do at a moment's notice and across hundreds of miles. There is no place for those who have the resources to 'put it all together' to even meet and discuss such serious issues.

Mark

Mark this is not personally directed at you, but while reading the last two pages your two paragraphs just seemed to magnify my thoughts .
A grain of wisdom is washed away by the flood of ones own power.

bud02 · Sep 28, 2010

teleiosis said:
1. The Last Trumpet calls the Dead forth...

1Co 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed — 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

2. That happens on the Day of the Lord as Paul identifies it.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

2TH 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

On the Day of the Lord we will see the Dead in Christ rise first and then we who are still alive and are left will be caught up with them on the clouds. So we have two markers here which identify when Jesus is coming for us.

I'm a little confused that these two events must be assumed to be one and the same.

Both passages are speaking about the end-times we still await; their context is the same.
Both passages speak about the last trumpet / trumpet call of God.
Both passages speak specifically are speaking about the resurrection of the "Dead in Christ."
And in the context of Jesus coming and gathering us up, which was detailed in Paul's first letter, Paul says this is the Day of the Lord.

So I have two complete parallels between the two passages and they come in the same order.
Furthermore, the coming of Christ is said to be coincidental with the Day of the Lord.
And this is not the only passage in the Bible which speaks of the coming of Christ Jesus and the subsequent gathering of the Elect happens on the Day of the Lord.

Not to be contentious, but I think we can draw the conclusion that these first two statements are indeed linked.

Now your getting some where. laying down those age old teachings about when we die, we go directly to heaven. that's what I was talking about, check the foundation.
You will know when its right both the Spirit and the word will testify to it.
Have a good day.

By the way now look for all the verses that support us being with Jesus right after we die.

[sup]43[/sup] And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
Move the comma and wala
[sup]43[/sup] And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”

1Co 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep,

teleiosis · Sep 29, 2010

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

2TH 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.

On the Day of the Lord we will see the Dead in Christ rise first and then we who are still alive and are left will be caught up with them on the clouds. So we have two markers here which identify when Jesus is coming for us.

Surf Rider said:
Again, we are seeing two separate passages used for support of an assumption. The assumption may be correct. It may not be correct. Is the changing of our bodies that same event that is being spoken of in the other passage? The two passages speak specifically of two different things, yet the OP assumes that they are one and the same thing. That is faulty logic.

I compared 1Th 4:16 with 1Co 15:52 before and noted the two parallels which indicate to me that Paul is indeed relating the same event to two different audiences.

In 2Th 2:1, Paul is attempting to provide additional instruction about the end-times which got confused by the recipients. This happens when complex end-time events are transmitted to simple beginners in the faith as I detailed before in my replies.

In 1Th 4:16 Paul is talking about when Jesus will come down from Heaven and how we will be "caught up". In 2Th 2:1 Paul again says concerning when Jesus comes and links our "being gathered to him" with that time... so I fail to see why there is a question that this is not the same event: when Jesus comes. That was the whole point of the Olivet Discourse; Jesus didn't answer when the the Temple would be torn down. He answered the Disciple's second question: when He would come again.

So while it is good to question our premises, going back over it exposes no fault in logic that I can see. Indeed, and to the contrary, I see two strong correlations between the two quoted passages in the language Paul uses to address the issue in successive letters to the Thessalonians.

Mark

bud02 · Sep 29, 2010

teleiosis said:
Jesus didn't answer when the the Temple would be torn down. He answered the Disciple's second question: when He would come again.

Mark

[sup]29[/sup] “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, [sup]30[/sup] and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
[sup]31[/sup] “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. [sup]32[/sup] Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. [sup]33[/sup] Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? [sup]34[/sup] Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, [sup]35[/sup] that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. [sup]36[/sup] Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
[sup]
[/sup]

Now you can debate the issue of a span of time in this place, from 36 to 37. That Jesus did or did not say verse 37 directly after 36. But it does not explain the fact that the writer of Mathew was lead by the Spirit to end CH 23 whit the declaration that Your House is left to you desolate, and begin chapter 24 with
24:[sup]1[/sup] Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. [sup]2[/sup] And Jesus said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.”

[sup]
37[/sup] “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! [sup]38[/sup] See! Your house is left to you desolate; [sup]39[/sup] for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’”

As you can see their is a time, and Jesus called it, this generation.

I detailed Chapter23and 24 for veteran but you know she to has her own view like most here do, including me. heres the post
http://www.christian...dpost__p__89227

teleiosis · Sep 29, 2010

I never knew Jesus spoke Shakespearean English...

I really don't want to discuss whether or not Jesus was speaking about the end coming to that generation in this thread. This thread is about the Last Trumpet and my contention, up for discussion, as to whether or not it is the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath. I say the Last Trumpet is not the seventh Trumpet, but the bookend to the First Trumpet sounded so many years ago when the Holy Spirit came upon the Apostles on the Festival of Firstfruits.

I have provided the applicable verses establishing a trail of logical connections which eliminates the possibility that the Last Trumpet is the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath. If you would like to discuss that, I'd gladly entertain your input.

If you want to discuss "this generation," start a thread with that in the title and I'll discuss that issue there with you.

Mark

bud02 · Sep 29, 2010

I was answering your statement, "Jesus didn't answer when the the Temple would be torn down".
I simply pointed out that He did indicate a time, now it is not, a Gregorian or Hebrew calender date, but it does speak of a piece of time.
But apparently the time of the destruction of the Temple is still a mistery for you, or rather not clearly defined to your academic standard.
Of course we know the temple you speak of has very little scriptural support.

We already started a discussion about a temple, that you have yet to respond to.
Can I presume a different out come here?

Just the same, good luck with your book and I hope that it is all your heart desires.

veteran · Sep 30, 2010

bud02 said:
[sup]29[/sup] “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous, [sup]30[/sup] and say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.’
[sup]31[/sup] “Therefore you are witnesses against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. [sup]32[/sup] Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers’ guilt. [sup]33[/sup] Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? [sup]34[/sup] Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, [sup]35[/sup] that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. [sup]36[/sup] Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
[sup]
[/sup]
[sup]
37[/sup] “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! [sup]38[/sup] See! Your house is left to you desolate; [sup]39[/sup] for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!’”

As you can see their is a time, and Jesus called it, this generation.

I detailed Chapter23and 24 for veteran but you know she to has her own view like most here do, including me. heres the post
http://www.christian...dpost__p__89227

Christ was not talking about 'time' with that word "generation", He was speaking of offspring with that "generation" word, the children of those who killed God's prophets...

Matt 23:32-36
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
(KJV)

Naturally, those Christ was speaking that to were not around for the killing of all the OT prophets and all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, and that's why He said to them, "your fathers". The word generation can also mean a people or nation, not only an era of time. He was pointing to a specific people AMONG the Jews.

It's wrong to apply that "generation" example in the same way Christ uses the fig tree parable generation in Matt.24, for there He is speaking of an era of time. But not in the Matt.23 example. That's why He also calls those He said that to a "generation of vipers", in the sense of offspring.

That's about the "mystery of iniquity" Apostle Paul mentioned, and the "many antichrists" John mentioned. Even John the Baptist pointed out that group of false ones that had crept in among Judah...

Matt 3:4-9
4 And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
(KJV)

You're not going to find this lesson about that people which crept into Judah long ago taught in today's Churches, for that just wouldn't be up to standards of today's political correctness on religious tolerance, now would it? But God's Word covers it in a very long history starting in Genesis all the way down to Revelation. Per 1 Chronicles 2:55, the families of the SCRIBES that dwelt at Jabez were the Kenites. The Kenites were a people that dwelt among the nations of Canaan before Israel entered into the land (Gen.15:19). And there they were after the Babylon captivity of Judah, in the seat as editors of God's Word as scribes. Foreigners also crept into the priesthood during that time also. This is why the last verse of Zech.14 for after Christ's second coming it says there will no more be the Canaanite in the House of The LORD. That's the offspring ("generation") of people Christ, and John, were pointing to, not an era or time.

It's very probable that some of those foreigners of the nations that crept into those positions as priests and religious leaders of the people were sincere. But likewise with our Lord's rebuke of them, that shows many of them were not sincere, and didn't really care about God's Israel the people, but only for what they could gain, like Judas.

bud02 · Sep 30, 2010

veteran said:
Christ was not talking about 'time' with that word "generation", He was speaking of offspring with that "generation" word, the children of those who killed God's prophets...

You really believe what you say in-spite of the historical evidence don't you. In-spite of a simple check with Strongs numbers.

1074. genea ghen-eh-ah' from (a presumed derivative of) 1085; a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons):--age, generation, nation, time.

And here is 1085 the presumed derivative of the word Jesus used. Thats your kin

1085. genos ghen'-os from 1096; "kin" (abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective):--born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock.

The evidence with out even looking in Strongs is that less than 40 years after it was said Jerusalem was crushed along with the temple.
But for some reason that doesn't satisfy you. You will still say I'm wrong.

It's wrong to apply that "generation" example in the same way Christ uses the fig tree parable generation in Matt.24, for there He is speaking of an era of time. But not in the Matt.23 example. That's why He also calls those He said that to a "generation of vipers", in the sense of offspring.

He uses the very same word in the parable but you chose to use it differently from one to the next to satisfy yourself. Rather than accepting what it says, combined with definition and history, you chose to lean to your own understanding.

Jesus rebukes the Scribes and Pharisees for a whole chapter and ends with "Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation"
And you can say that He is not implicating that this generation "those people" will pay. I have no idea why you even bother to read the bible you should just publish your own.
The more I talk with you, the more I realize that not even clear and simple verses indicating an obvious relationship can change your mind.

The Last Trumpet Is Not The Seventh Trumpet.

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