Pride? No, disappointment! I don't recall speaking with you before this thread. Have a good life and may God bless you as you walk with Him!
Only 2 Comings by Lord Jesus, Not 3
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Brethren in Christ, I don't mind helping one's Bible study, and that's why I most often always give Scripture backup so those interested can look it up for theirself. I'm not here to waste folk's time and play games. Fellowship for fun is setup on other parts of this Forum. I am serious about God's Word, and don't have a lot of patience for those who play around with God's Word and treat it like it's something to use like a roulette wheel, always guessing at its meaning and never coming to its Truth. Either those have a mental handicap or they don't take God's Holy Writ that seriously.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
It is the last day of the week. It happens after Satan's 42 months. This day happens after The Lamb has already been on this earth, gathering the final harvest. The harvest is living humans, not dead humans.
Strange. You're correct that the "day of the Lord" only happens on the LAST DAY of this world, but you are completely and terribly wrong about the timing of Christ's Harvest with the gathering of His Church.
Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Jesus showed what tribulation He meant in those Olivet discourse chapters, and I think you've read them, so what are you really trying to ask? Surely you're not going to throw out some pre-trib mumbo jumbo about Jesus' "great tribulation" warning? But I guess The Holy Spirit wants me to explain per God's Word so others can see also:
The "great tribulation" is particularly caused by these events...
Matt 24:15-26
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Antiochus IV in 165 B.C. served as a blueprint for the above future... AOD idol that the coming Antichrist will place in another Jewish temple in Jerusalem for the end. Today's orthodox Jews in Jerusalem already have the materials to build it, even a cut cornerstone since 1989.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
This warning of being with child is not about literal pregnant women fleeing. It is a spiritual metaphor given way back in the Old Testament prophets about being found a spiritual harlot having gone to another in place of Christ. The Luke 21 version of this speaks of great wrath being upon these, which those in Christ are not appointed to wrath, remember? Paul in 2 Corinthians 11 gave this with child metaphor also when he said he wanted to present us to Christ as "a chaste virgin". He was pulling from Isaiah 54 about 'Blessed are the barren...".
But of course, those who think with a carnal fleshy mind will wrongly think that is about literal pregnant women. Those need to study Isaiah 54 and Luke 23 about the 'barren whose paps never gave suck.' It's actually a warning from Lord Jesus to not be deceived by the coming pseudo-Christ.
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Lord Jesus ties this time of "great tribulation" from the previous events He described from the AOD event and false messiah. Daniel 12:1 does the same with a link to Michael and the war in heaven per Revelation 12:7-17 with Satan and his angels being cast out of the heavenly down to this earth to go after Christ's Church.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV
Jesus connected all those events for the "great tribulation" timing with this coming pseudo-Christ. Dr. James Strong in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defined the pseudochristos Greek word ("false Christs" in the KJV), as 'a spurious Messiah' (no.5580). That means a singular false Messiah, not many. That is about the Antichrist coming at the end of this world. Lord Jesus warns that if someone comes up to you and says Christ is here, or there, do not believe it! It will be the false messiah instead. That is the main deception we are to be on guard against for the coming tribulation.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
So billions of people dying does not mean that much of a tribulation? Something much worse? How about 2 years of covid, and it getting increasingly worse?
When the coming pseudo-Christ shows up, it's going to be a chicken in every pot, "Peace and safety" is what the deceived will be saying. Where's this written? It's in Daniel 8:23-25 and 1 Thessalonians 5:1-5.
But you Pre-trib Rapture theory preachers aren't taught to quote all of Jesus' warning about wars and rumors of wars...
Mark 13:7
7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet.
KJV
Instead, you pre-trib preachers go on a long, long tirade about all out chaos and WWIII for the end of this world, trying to scare the heck out of your congregations so as to try and force them to accept your pre-trib rapture false theory! You probably have read books written by pre-trib writers like Hal Lindsey and Tim LaHaye that support all that theory for the end! Heck, you probably even show his Left-Behind movies in Sunday School at church instead of actually teaching The Bible! (Yes, I have more than one witness of this by some pre-trib folks I know).
And when you quote the above verse by Jesus warning about wars and rumors of wars, you FORGET most often to quote that last part in red!
What's it mean then?
It means... the END will NOT be all out chaos and WWIII! Isn't that what Apostle Paul also said in 1 Thess.5, that when 'they' shall say, "Peace and safety"?? Yeah! So WHY AREN'T YOU FOLLOWING THE BIBLE on that instead of preaching WWIII?
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Another thing brethren, Lord Jesus warned about this time we are in right now, a time of sorrows. But still this time is not the very end, the actual "great tribulation". That doesn't happen until the time of "Peace and safety" when the coming false-Messiah shows up in Jerusalem, demanding to be worshiped in place of God. All the chaos happening now is in order to PRESENT THE COMING ANTICHRIST. Don't be fooled like those on a Pre-trib rapture theory are, and are actually being prepared to fly away to that first supernatural one which will mimic Lord Jesus.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
I am referring to the 4th Seal. You claim after every single tribulation is over, and still cannot define tribulation. You avoid the topic and go into a tirade about some other false tirade.
Of course the Second Coming is not the end, there is more tribulation after the Second Coming. Why do you not divide Revelation properly? There is no antichrist. Just Christ is coming to gather the final harvest.
I really don't think you know how to pay attention. You know, paying attention is one of the most important things we need to do in this world, and especially in study of God's Word.
You were TALKING ABOUT THE TRIBULATION. That... was YOUR subject. You asked me to define tribulation, and I DID, even showing you relevant Scripture! But you still DENY that Scripture to your own deception.
The "end" which Jesus taught is about the time of "great tribulation" He taught in His Olive discourse. I am certain you well know that, but are just trying to be obstinate.
The so-called Second Coming happens after... the "great tribulation" like He showed in His Olivet discourse. Jesus comes only ONE more time, and it is after the tribulation like He said. Once again, I am certain you well know that too! So why are you teaching a false doctrine of men that goes against what Lord Jesus taught???
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Except you add that word "great" where it does not belong. Then you add the definite article "the" where it does not belong.
"After the tribulation of those days" is not defined by great.
There will be "great tribulation as never seen before" is still not "The Great Tribulation".
You cannot place "the Great" to define "after the tribulation of those days". The tribulation of those days prior to the Second Coming is not the greatest tribulation of all time, nor the GT.
"It is then that the end will come.
So when you see the abomination that causes devastation spoken about through the prophet Dani’el standing in the Holy Place” (let the reader understand the allusion).
Preterist has placed this time into 70AD. What time?
21 For there will be trouble then worse than there has ever been from the beginning of the world until now, and there will be nothing like it again!
29 “But immediately following the trouble of those times,
the sun will grow dark,
the moon will stop shining,
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the powers in heaven will be shaken.
30 “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, all the tribes of the Land will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with tremendous power and glory.
If 70AD was the worse it would get, then no tribulation at the Second Coming.
What I am pointing out is you cannot just take words and combine them to make a future claim.
Yes the Second Coming is after tribulation. If the Greatest tribulation was in 70AD, yes the Second Coming happened after your version of the "GT". Your GT happened in 70AD and it is now 2021. The Second Coming is still future and the worse that could happen happened in 70AD. Do you see how this cannot "just work" to your future claim, because you say so?
You jumped from "after such tribulation" to it was "greatest tribulation" to "the GT". Then you claim this has not happened yet, when yes, some did happen in 70AD.
So all this stuff up to verse 29, is not just describing events prior to the Second Coming. If that were the case, then what is coming cannot compare to what happened in the 1st century. There will never be a GT as described in Revelation. That is why you need to point out what happens when, not just say, "well it says this". You have some who say all of it has already happened. That is why, Jesus was not talking just about 70AD, and then you have to use Revelation to point out the time line, instead of using Jesus and the Olivet Discourse to correct the timeline in Revelation. I doubt 70AD was the greatest tribulation of all time, but I never experienced it, nor does the Bible for that matter say what happened. Neither has there been a line of strong preterist, historical documentation by any 1st century preterist historian living at that time to give us the specific details of the event.
The Gospels do not even give us a sense that the Jews were in any trouble during the first 3.5 years of an earthly ministry associated with Jesus. However I do think that those 3.5 years were the years of peace, and that there would have been the other half of Daniel's 70th week which would have been the time of Greatest tribulation, because that is closer to what John states in Revelation. So there will be no peaceful 3.5 years at all as a future event, but the next set of years Jesus Christ is here will be this greatest tribulation never seen prior, nor after. The Second Coming has to happen so Christ can actually spend that time on this earth. This time spent will be shortened/limited and will not be 3.5 years. Since it is for the elect's sake, then they will have more time and Jesus will have less time. This does not contradict the Seals, nor Jesus saying, "After the tribulation of those days, I will come", and then there will be even greater tribulation that will end in Satan's 42 months which is the GT. Satan's 42 months may not be the greatest of all time tribulation, but it will be a definite fixed length great tribulation, ie GT.
Yes it makes sense that even when Christ is here, many will claim to be a Christ. Even Satan will present his own FP, to prove to many through miracles, that Jesus is lying. Remember that God is also sending Judgment, and it is the physical end of all humanity. All will have died when the 7th Trumpet stops.
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Not going to argue with such silliness play on words. My Testimony for Christ regarding His Olivet discourse is true, but if you don't care to heed it as written, then that's your choice. But you won't fool others here that will... study it for theirselves into thinking you know what you're talking about.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
I will not ignore God's Word and turn to any man for their own interpretation. I am heeding it as written, thus the difference of opinion.
By following the doctrine of men called the Pre-trib Rapture theory, you are ignoring God's written Word. I still will claim what Jesus said about when He comes to gather His saints as the TRUE coming, and there is none other. But the doctrine of man you follow creates another coming which is not written. So much for your false statement that you won't ignore God's Word.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
John 14:2 "In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."
The word "mansions" as written in the Greek text. "Mansions" is "mone", # 3438 in the Strong's Greek dictionary, and pronounced, "mon-ay' ". It means a place to rest and abide where there is no trouble. Friend, this resting place is in Christ and the Father, that is the resting.
John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
This is Jesus' promise to you and I today, as much as it was to those eleven disciples sitting at the supper table with Him two thousand years ago. Jesus is telling us that we can count on Him, He is returning to earth to receive His own, and be with them here on earth during the Millennium age Kingdom.
Two choices, the seal of God or the mark of the beast.
Simple question , why does one need to have the seal of God if they not gonna be here?
Simple question , why does one need to have the seal of God if they not gonna be here?
The Any-Moment-Now Rapture Theory:
a Deception Leading Straight to the Antichrist
by Steve Barwick
Of all of the controversies among Christians, there is none greater than that of the so-called "any moment now" rapture theory, also known as the pre-tribulation rapture.
Those who believe in the rapture cling to it tenaciously, like the cartoon character Linus clinging to his security blanket.
Unfortunately, there’s absolutely NO Biblical support for "the rapture" as it is commonly taught by Christian ministers today. None whatsoever. The Scriptures simply will not support it.
Yes, there’s a spectacular "gathering together" of the saints. But as we’ll see in this study, it occurs here on this earth at Christ's Second Advent. No one is flitting off into the sky to fly away with Jesus.
Instead, our Lord and Savior is returning to this earth – permanently -- to rule and reign as LORD of Lords and KING of kings.
And as Christ Jesus makes His triumphant return, His faithful Christian saints here on this earth will indeed be gathered together to be with Him to join that great spiritual army from heaven that arrives to this earth with Him and accompanies Him to His earthly destination, which is Jerusalem.
As we’re told in the great book of Jude, verses 14 and 15, at His second advent Christ is coming here to this earth, with "ten thousands of His saints" to put an end to ungodliness:
"Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convinct all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
And as it’s written again in the great book of Revelation, chapter 9, He’s coming to this earth with His heavenly armies to set things right:
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called 2
The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
So you see, our Lord and Savior is returning to this old earth with quite a crew. It’s His great Christian army, and it’s composed of all of those who have been faithful to the Word of God since the time of Adam.
And it’s into that great body of believers that His faithful servants on this earth – His precious elect -- will be gathered, as He returns for His second advent.
This should shed new light for you onto the Scripture passages so commonly used to justify the idea of a rapture. In reality, these Scriptures teach us where the "dead in Christ" are, and what will happen to both the "dead in Christ" and those still "alive" on this earth at His return.
Let’s take a quick look, in light of the above knowledge of that great body of faithful servants which shall return with the Lord at His second advent:
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Paul here is teaching what happens to those "which are asleep," which is to say, those who have already died in the Lord. Where are they? They’re with Him!
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Those who have died in Christ BEFORE His second advent will return with Him AT His second advent.
Simply put, those who "sleep in Jesus" make up that great Christian army that returns to this earth with Christ Jesus, which we just read about in Jude 1:14-15 and Revelation 19:11-16 above.
We’re gathered together with them, as they descend with Christ Jesus to this earth to set things right.
https://haveyenotread.com/wp-conten...eption-Leading-Straight-to-the-Antichrist.pdf
a Deception Leading Straight to the Antichrist
by Steve Barwick
Of all of the controversies among Christians, there is none greater than that of the so-called "any moment now" rapture theory, also known as the pre-tribulation rapture.
Those who believe in the rapture cling to it tenaciously, like the cartoon character Linus clinging to his security blanket.
Unfortunately, there’s absolutely NO Biblical support for "the rapture" as it is commonly taught by Christian ministers today. None whatsoever. The Scriptures simply will not support it.
Yes, there’s a spectacular "gathering together" of the saints. But as we’ll see in this study, it occurs here on this earth at Christ's Second Advent. No one is flitting off into the sky to fly away with Jesus.
Instead, our Lord and Savior is returning to this earth – permanently -- to rule and reign as LORD of Lords and KING of kings.
And as Christ Jesus makes His triumphant return, His faithful Christian saints here on this earth will indeed be gathered together to be with Him to join that great spiritual army from heaven that arrives to this earth with Him and accompanies Him to His earthly destination, which is Jerusalem.
As we’re told in the great book of Jude, verses 14 and 15, at His second advent Christ is coming here to this earth, with "ten thousands of His saints" to put an end to ungodliness:
"Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convinct all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
And as it’s written again in the great book of Revelation, chapter 9, He’s coming to this earth with His heavenly armies to set things right:
Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called 2
The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
So you see, our Lord and Savior is returning to this old earth with quite a crew. It’s His great Christian army, and it’s composed of all of those who have been faithful to the Word of God since the time of Adam.
And it’s into that great body of believers that His faithful servants on this earth – His precious elect -- will be gathered, as He returns for His second advent.
This should shed new light for you onto the Scripture passages so commonly used to justify the idea of a rapture. In reality, these Scriptures teach us where the "dead in Christ" are, and what will happen to both the "dead in Christ" and those still "alive" on this earth at His return.
Let’s take a quick look, in light of the above knowledge of that great body of faithful servants which shall return with the Lord at His second advent:
1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Paul here is teaching what happens to those "which are asleep," which is to say, those who have already died in the Lord. Where are they? They’re with Him!
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Those who have died in Christ BEFORE His second advent will return with Him AT His second advent.
Simply put, those who "sleep in Jesus" make up that great Christian army that returns to this earth with Christ Jesus, which we just read about in Jude 1:14-15 and Revelation 19:11-16 above.
We’re gathered together with them, as they descend with Christ Jesus to this earth to set things right.
https://haveyenotread.com/wp-conten...eption-Leading-Straight-to-the-Antichrist.pdf
And now you are trying to BEAR FALSE WITNESS against me, by asking such a question.
You obviously have not been able to prove your pet Pre-trib Rapture theory position per God's written Word, so now you have to try and use slanders and make believe.
So I will say it again, in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, Lord Jesus showed WHEN HIS COMING TO GATHER HIS SAINTS will be, and He showed it will be AFTER... the tribulation He mentioned there! He made direct statements to that fact there. They are not metaphors nor parable. And what He showed there DIRECTLY PARALLELS what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 about the coming of Christ and gathering of His Church.
Now if you cannot grasp by what I declared in that above paragraph showing what I believe about my Lord Jesus Christ's return to gather His saints, then you definitely have a comprehension problem.
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