The True Messiah's Genealogy

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DontNeedChrist

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According to the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible) the TRUE Messiah will be descended through the tribe of Judah via David's son Solomon. In Judaism, the tribe is transmitted through the paternal line ONLY. The Jewish mother makes the child Jewish but in order to be affiliated with a tribe the child must be biologically related to the father. Since the NT claims jesus had no biological father then there's no way jesus could be affiliated with any tribe. His mother made him Jewish but the mother does not transmit the tribe. Therefore jesus was a tribeless Jew and disqualified from messiahship the moment he was born. So here is the question: How was jesus from the tribe of Judah?
 

HammerStone

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A common mistake.

Jesus was, legally speaking, the son of Joseph thereby satiating Hebrew law. If you want a Hebraic reference, Haggigah, Book 77, 4 will demonstrate this. The declaration, rightfully so, makes Joseph the son-in-law of Heli who was descended from David - meaning Jesus had the bloodline of David.
 

DontNeedChrist

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A common mistake.

Jesus was, legally speaking, the son of Joseph thereby satiating Hebrew law. If you want a Hebraic reference, Haggigah, Book 77, 4 will demonstrate this. The declaration, rightfully so, makes Joseph the son-in-law of Heli who was descended from David - meaning Jesus had the bloodline of David.

First of all, using Gemara out of context proves nothing. Even if the claim that Joseph was Heli's son-in-law were true, that still doesn't change the fact that Joseph did not biologically conceive Jesus. There is nothing in Judaic law that states tribal affiliation is "legally" transmitted aside from the wife attaining the tribe of the husband. The biological offspring of a Jewish married couple receives the tribe via the BIOLOGICAL FATHER's affiliation. It's a genetic birth rite. Not a legal one. In Psalms G-d promised David that David's SEED would inherit the throne within the tribe of Judah. The Book of Numbers clearly states the tribes are counted via the pedigree of the FATHER'S HOUSE. Since Jesus had no biological father per the gospels, he was born tribeless. No tribe. No Messiah.
 

HammerStone

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With all due respect, your argument is rather anachronistic in a sense and unpersuasive if you dig a bit. (Please do choose whether or not you'd like to argue biologically or legally, because your original argument indicated a legal one given that you spoke about Joseph not being the father. I'm further glad we can agree on the virgin birth.) I'm not certain how you define context - but I simply cited a historical reference outside of Christianity (and actually from the culture as opposed to large generalizations anyone can make) which makes the connection - whether you choose to admit that from my argument because it doesn't agree with your thoughts is fully your prerogative I do concede.

As you've already confirmed in your own words, Christ is the bloodline descendant (seed) of David through his mother regardless of legal customs. I merely pointed out that he is legally the seed as well through Joseph.

No disqualification here, but if that's how you feel then I understand. I hope your mind remains open and that perhaps one day you're ready to look again earnestly.
 

DontNeedChrist

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Please do choose whether or not you'd like to argue biologically or legally, because your original argument indicated a legal one given that you spoke about Joseph not being the father.
With all due respect, my original point was strictly a biological one. Never did I infer or mention anything legal. You made that claim in your first response. As I clearly stated, the issue is a biological one and not a legal one as Judaism never provides an avenue for tribal transmission to a child other then genetically.

I'm further glad we can agree on the virgin birth.
I merely stated that the gospels make the claim that jesus had no biological father. I never said I agree with that claim and I certainly never conceded to any virgins giving birth. I would appreciate if you refrained from putting words in my mouth as I will with you.

As you've already confirmed in your own words, Christ is the bloodline descendant (seed) of David through his mother regardless of legal customs. I merely pointed out that he is legally the seed as well through Joseph.
I suggest you reread my words. The Messiah must be from the tribe of Judah. The tribe is only transmitted biologically on the PATERNAL side. Anyone can claim to be of David's bloodline but that hardly makes them the Messiah.

No disqualification here, but if that's how you feel then I understand. I hope your mind remains open and that perhaps one day you're ready to look again earnestly.
I've made the disqualification quite clear. You have yet to address the question as to how Jesus could be from the tribe of Judah. You've only made a weak and flimsy claim that he was of the Davidic bloodline which alone does not a Messiah make.
 

DontNeedChrist

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David is from the Tribe of Judah, so it would appear that his progeny are also.

The tribe is only transmitted through the male side. How was Jesus of the tribe of Judah if none of David's male progeny biologically conceived him?
 

Doppleganger

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Well, If you can believe Satan impregnated Eve, and had Cain, and Abel was his twin by Adam. And the Fallen Angels, mated with women. How hard is it for God to conceive a birth with Mary. Its the right line on both sides, 66th in line from ? The right Meschach ben Joseph as the Jews would say ... Or better yet ... The Suffering Servant. The Branch, the Man. The Sent One. God with Us, Immanuel. But not the future-to-be Conquering Messiah ben David. I wonder if they'll check his credentials 666.

He was either a fraud because he believed he was and he wasn't ->
He was either nuts because he wasn't ->
OR
He was who he said he was.
IF Not

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very work's sake.


I won't wanna claim the things he did, my lifes tough enough.
 

DontNeedChrist

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Well, If you can believe Satan impregnated Eve, and had Cain, and Abel was his twin by Adam.
Jews don't believe in such a thing.


And the Fallen Angels, mated with women.
Jews don't believe in such a thing.

How hard is it for God to conceive a birth with Mary.
Jews don't believe in such a thing.

It's quite easy to debunk all those claims. Satan impregnated Eve?
blink.gif


Getting back to the topic...so far there has been no direct answer to the direct question. How was Jesus from the tribe of Judah?
 

Doppleganger

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EW Bullinger probably one of the most profound biblical scholars, thought so! In fact he's the only Christian scholar to edit the massoretic texts for Ginsberg. To say all Jews don't believe such things is blanket statement. Where's your refernces? I tried to put it in a way you could understand! You wanna debate semantic's? Your telling me the Hebrew tradition doesn't state that they believed in the Nephillim or Geber?

http://www.christian...suss-geneology/
http://www.christian...gy/page__st__30


http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=27&letter=C
Cain was also viewed as a type of utter perverseness, an offspring of Satan (Pirḳe R. El. xxi.), "a son of wrath" (Apoc. Mosis, 3), a lawless rebel who said ...

The seven generations of Cain, as the brood of Satan, are accordingly represented as types of rebels(Gen. R. xxiii.). While the pious men all descended from Seth, there sprang from Cain all the wicked ones who rebelled against God and whose perverseness and corruption brought on the flood: they committed all abominations and incestuous crimes in public without shame. The daughters of Cain were those "fair daughters of men" who by their lasciviousness caused the fall of the "sons of God" (Gen. vi. 1-4; Pirḳe R. El. xxii.; compare Sibyllines, i. 75). The Ethiopian Book of Adam and Eve and the Syriac Cave of Treasures—both Christianized Melchisedician works based upon a genuine Jewish original—relate the story of the fall of the descendants of Seth as "the sons of God" who had lived in purity as saints on the mountain near Eden,

"He built a city" (Gen. iv. 17) means that "he built a doctrinal system of law-lessness, insolence, and immoderate indulgence in pleasure" ("De Posteritate," 15); and the Epicurean philosophers are of the school of Cain, "claiming to have Cain as teacher and guide, who recommended the worship of the sensual powers in preference to the powers above, and who practised his doctrine by destroying Abel, the expounder of the opposite doctrine" (ib. 11).
 

DontNeedChrist

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EW Bullinger probably one of the most profound biblical scholars, thought so! In fact he's the only Christian scholar to edit the massoretic texts for Ginsberg. To say all Jews don't believe such things is blanket statement. Where's your refernces? I tried to put it in a way you could understand! You wanna debate semantic's? Your telling me the Hebrew tradition doesn't state that they believed in the Nephillim or Geber?
I know about Bullinger who was a CHRISTIAN biblical scholar and CHRISTIAN David Ginsberg was a Jew that converted to Christianity. They are hardly reliable JEWISH sources. Where are my references? The Torah, The Tanakh, The Mishna. The Gemara. (The Talmud), etc., etc. This is not semantics, it's scriptural facts. The Nephillim were human giants not angels. A little research from JEWISH sources would do wonders since we are discussing JEWISH scripture and the requirements for the JEWISH Messiah foretold of.

I will state for the record that Jewish Encyclopedia.com is NOT a trusted Jewish source. Neither is Wikipedia. Neither is Google. Nor is the Internet in general. Copying and pasting from Internet web pages is basing your argument on questionable information from the very start.

Again I will ask, how was Jesus from the tribe of Judah? Still waiting...
 

Doppleganger

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http://yerekmessage....nites-jews.html

A Jewish believer wrote this ->

Rabbi Louis Finkelstein, one of the leading authorities on Judaism asserted: "Parseeism became Talmudism, Talmudism became Medieval Rabbinism, and Medieval Rabbinism became Modern Rabbinism . These "brood of vipers" have tried to fooled the world on who they really are.

Did you read the Links?

Obviously the controversy puts this doubt in your mind! Its the dif between a legal father and a paternal one.

On top of that the Jews of his day, never doubt his credentials is this jesus son of Mary and Joseph!

Matthew 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.

Luke 2:4-5 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David: To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.

Luke 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

John 19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS.
 

DontNeedChrist

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http://yerekmessage....nites-jews.html

A Jewish believer wrote this ->

Rabbi Louis Finkelstein, one of the leading authorities on Judaism asserted: "Parseeism became Talmudism, Talmudism became Medieval Rabbinism, and Medieval Rabbinism became Modern Rabbinism . These "brood of vipers" have tried to fooled the world on who they really are.

Ah yes, the ’ole conspiracy theory regarding rabbinic Judaism. An old, tired argument. The "brood of vipers" that brainwashed an entire nation. Nice words.

[font="tahoma][color="#000000"][font="arial] [/font][/color][size="2"]Matthew 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called [/size]Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.[/font]

Show me the exact TANAKH chapter and verse where the "prophets" spoke of this "Nazarene prophecy" please. I challenge you. You'll be searching a very, very long time because no such prophecy exists in any Hebrew scripture or literature. One of Matthew's many blunders. Good luck with that.

You can quote endless NT scripture but the fact remains the concept of the Jewish Messiah originated within the pages of the Hebrew Bible and its learned commentaries. This is yet another deflection from the subject matter.

How was Jesus from the tribe of Judah? Still waiting....
 

Doppleganger

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I gave references, Now you must give specific references. I think its your turn to prove the opposite to us!? How about it! You seem to be leaving something out. Your a skeptic., cynic, a natural doubter. State your thesis, as far as what you want and objections to what ever logic you haven't provided.
 

DontNeedChrist

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Sep 8, 2010
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No references have been given. There's been no reply to the question. Only subject changes and deflections. I ask yet again...how is Jesus from the tribe of Judah?
 

Paul

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Jesus Christ, Yeshua Hamashiach, is the spotless Lamb of God, Who died for us, and rose again triumphant over death. He will be YOUR Savior if You believe in Him. It is your decision to accept Him or reject Him by faith.
 

DontNeedChrist

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Jesus Christ, Yeshua Hamashiach, is the spotless Lamb of God, Who died for us, and rose again triumphant over death. He will be YOUR Savior if You believe in Him. It is your decision to accept Him or reject Him by faith.

Yet again I ask, how was Jesus from the tribe of Judah? No need for sermons. Please answer the question.
 
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