Is pre-tribulation rapture a doctrine of demons?

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marks

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We tend to think Israel belongs in her own category, excluding the Church, because so much of the Bible focuses only on her!
Here's a question for you. In the Kingdom Age, when Jesus returns, Do the Israelites receive a land grant in the promised land? OK, two questions. Do the saved Gentiles also receive a land grant in the promised land?

I would answer yes to the first, and no to the second. How do you see this?

Much love!
 

marks

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No, I'm not, simply because that is who the false Pre-trib Rapture theory is designed for, i.e., the deceived. It is designed to fool those who fall for it into accepting the 1st supernatural messiah that shows up working great signs and wonders in Jerusalem, and that will proclaim himself as Christ-God, and whom the unbelieving Jews are being prepared to accept as their Messiah. This warning was well written of in many Bible Scriptures about the end of this world, so it's not something I'm making up.
Got it, thank you!

Much love!
 

Randy Kluth

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Here's a question for you. In the Kingdom Age, when Jesus returns, Do the Israelites receive a land grant in the promised land? OK, two questions. Do the saved Gentiles also receive a land grant in the promised land?

I would answer yes to the first, and no to the second. How do you see this?
Much love!

Yes, here is what is unique about how I see things. As such, I have no trouble understanding why my view on this should be questioned. Anything uncommon should be questioned. But it is what it is--I cannot deny how I'm seeing this.

The Bible is not out of date, but it does have a time stamp on it to some degree. When the Bible was finished, it was finished in the Early Church, and cannot contain anything but prophecy about the future.

In the Early Church, Israel had only recently had their religion yanked away from them. Judaism had failed, although the Law itself had succeeded in proving that Israel was sinful and in need of Messianic redemption. Christianity was the only way forward. Still, Israel had been raised in the Law, and had been well-tested with the word of God. The Gentile Church was forming from pagans, and had to rely heavily on the record of Israel to learn what God had been doing for many hundreds of years with Israel.

In other words, Israel had been the exclusively "Chosen Nation" for a long time, and the Gentile world were novices, and completely new to the process. The tree had grown up, and the Gentiles were now being grafted onto that spiritual tree.

However, the "Tree" itself--Israel--had passed into a temporary oblivion, being that Rome came to destroy her in 70 AD. The nation would suffer its greatest tribulation, or punishment, in her history, being sent into a Diaspora that would last through the entire NT age! Still, Israel will, I believe, be restored to her land.

I do believe that Israel is no longer the only "natural tree." Today, non-Jewish nations have grown up as Christian nations, and have now had as many years in the word of God as Israel had in the Law in the time Paul called them the "native tree." So, European peoples today are largely bred from a Christian heritage and are themselves "native nations." We are no longer the odd balls being grafted onto the native tree of Israel. We have our own trees just as "native" as Israel had been in Paul's time.

This is not a competition--this is just reality. Now, many nations have grown up with the word of God. But the cultures all fizzle over time, just as Israel did in theirs.

So the question is, if God promised Israel a land and a nation, was that strictly tied to OT truth, or is this perennial and eternal truth? I personally believe it is eternal truth. Just as I believe Israel will be restored as a nation and to their land again, so I believe formerly Christian nations will be restored to being Christian nations in their own lands again.

God is nondiscriminatory, or impartial. He treats all nations the same way, and gives them all the same kinds of promises. We just don't read those promises, as it concerns the nations, because the Bible was finished before those Christian nations even came into being. But they were promised to Abraham quite literally in the Abrahamic Covenant.
 

Davy

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No He is not coming ot gather His saints- He is coming to gather the elect. If you allowed context to determine things in the bible like you probably do with all other literature- you would realize that He is reffering to teh Jewish people who got saved at the end of the Trib.

In Matthew 24, Jesus was upon the Mount of Olives with His disciples, the early foundation of His Church. Pre-trib's play on words like 'saints' and 'elect' is foolishness. Christ's saints ARE... His elect, and definitely part of His Church. Pre-trib tries to push that stupid play all the time, confusing brethren that are gullible because they don't study God's Word for themselves.

The proof Christ gave His Olivet discourse to all His Church is in that Scripture itself. The two versions of His coming and gathering the saints in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 directly parallel what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 about the gathering of the Church. The Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse parallel the Seals of Revelation 6, which is definitely... for His Church. There's so much Scripture evidence there that He was speaking to all His Church there that it's defies all common sense to say differently. Even at the end of Mark 13 what He said He said to ALL, to Watch! Watch what?? What the Signs leading up to His return and gathering of His Church that He gave there in His Olivet discourse, which His disciples asked Him about (Matthew 24:3)!

But if you want to be deceived, and heed those men that devised the Pre-trib Rapture lies, be my guest if you don't care any more about your soul than that.
 

Davy

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"The marriage supper is shown happening AFTER THE TRIBULATION, during Christ's reign."
No way.

Yes way!! That is the order IF you stay with the actual written Scripture there in Revelation 19. Ask your Pre-trib Rapture preacher why he leaves out those Revelation 19:1-6 verses which reveals the tribulation time is over at that point of verse 2.
 

Truther

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Yes way!! That is the order IF you stay with the actual written Scripture there in Revelation 19. Ask your Pre-trib Rapture preacher why he leaves out those Revelation 19:1-6 verses which reveals the tribulation time is over at that point of verse 2.

Thy speech betrayeth thee.

Only Rome is finished with, in the 1st 6 verses, not the entire tribulation.

The antichrist and his armies are not yet dealt with until the very end of chapter 19.
 

Davy

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Thy speech betrayeth thee.

Only Rome is finished with, in the 1st 6 verses, not the entire tribulation.

The antichrist and his armies are not yet dealt with until the very end of chapter 19.

What I said stands, because the first part of the Rev.19:1-9 is timing AFTER the tribulation, which is what is meant that the great whore is judged, Christ's servants are avenged, and God reigneth. If you can't grasp how that means the tribulation is over by those events, then you don't understand all the other written Scriptures about those things, especially like Rev.18.

But starting at Rev.19:11 forward timing, the timeline moves back to the day of Christ's coming to fight with His army.

The Book of Revelation does this kind of timeline move often, just as do the books of the Old Testament prophets. Because you don't understand this, but appear to always be thinking all events in Revelation happen in the order they are written, that's why you can't understand this matter. Those teaching it to you obviously don't understand it either, or they have an agenda to deceive.
 

Ronald Nolette

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In Matthew 24, Jesus was upon the Mount of Olives with His disciples, the early foundation of His Church. Pre-trib's play on words like 'saints' and 'elect' is foolishness. Christ's saints ARE... His elect, and definitely part of His Church. Pre-trib tries to push that stupid play all the time, confusing brethren that are gullible because they don't study God's Word for themselves.

The proof Christ gave His Olivet discourse to all His Church is in that Scripture itself. The two versions of His coming and gathering the saints in Matthew 24 and Mark 13 directly parallel what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 about the gathering of the Church. The Signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse parallel the Seals of Revelation 6, which is definitely... for His Church. There's so much Scripture evidence there that He was speaking to all His Church there that it's defies all common sense to say differently. Even at the end of Mark 13 what He said He said to ALL, to Watch! Watch what?? What the Signs leading up to His return and gathering of His Church that He gave there in His Olivet discourse, which His disciples asked Him about (Matthew 24:3)!

But if you want to be deceived, and heed those men that devised the Pre-trib Rapture lies, be my guest if you don't care any more about your soul than that.


Israel is also Gods Elect! Context determines which group and the olivet discourse is definitely about the Jews and not the church.

But it could also mean the Tribulation saints who are not part of the church as well. After all they all will pass before the throne of Jesus to be ushered into the millenial kingdom.

YOu forget that we don't word play, but look at all Scriptures.

Revelation 19
King James Version

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


The church is already in heaven before Jesus returns so we can take part in our wedding to the Lamb!

Paul also clearly taught that the church will be delivered from the wrath to come which is the 70th week of Daniel or teh 7 years we call the tribulation and as Scripture calls it also:

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

We will be raptured before the sixth seal is fully opened, which is prior to the seventh seal being opened which brings the 7 trumpet judgments on the earth. Then after the events of the mid point of the trib- the seven angels pour out the final judgments on earth before the Lord returns.
 

Davy

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Israel is also Gods Elect! Context determines which group and the olivet discourse is definitely about the Jews and not the church.

If you want to do the 'context' play on words, let's do that then.

Jesus was speaking to BELIEVERS on Him while upon the Mount of Olives, and that means His Church. End of context argument.

The Pre-trib Rapture doctors are only telling a lie about those with Jesus on the Mount of Olives; they deny the Ephesians 2 Scripture where Apostle Paul declared Christ's Apostles as part of the foundation of His spiritual temple, i.e., Christ's Church. Man's theory of Dispensationalism does this ignorant twist, and it's only to serve their false pre-trib rapture theories.

And 'word play' is about all the Pre-trib Rapture theory does. It's not interested in God's Truth, but in men's doctrines. That's why it teaches against even what Jesus Himself revealed about His coming to gather His Church. His Olivet discourse is only one of several places in His Word where He used the "as a thief" idea to represent the day of His coming for His Church. Try to argue with Him on that for a while.
 

Truther

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What I said stands, because the first part of the Rev.19:1-9 is timing AFTER the tribulation, which is what is meant that the great whore is judged, Christ's servants are avenged, and God reigneth. If you can't grasp how that means the tribulation is over by those events, then you don't understand all the other written Scriptures about those things, especially like Rev.18.

But starting at Rev.19:11 forward timing, the timeline moves back to the day of Christ's coming to fight with His army.

The Book of Revelation does this kind of timeline move often, just as do the books of the Old Testament prophets. Because you don't understand this, but appear to always be thinking all events in Revelation happen in the order they are written, that's why you can't understand this matter. Those teaching it to you obviously don't understand it either, or they have an agenda to deceive.
The book of Rev is written chronologically to be read chronologically.

We are not allowed to read it backwards, but forwards.
 

Davy

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The book of Rev is written chronologically to be read chronologically.

We are not allowed to read it backwards, but forwards.

Then you don't understand it at all, because the 6th Seal event in Rev.6 is about the day of Christ's coming, as also is the 7th trumpet in Rev.11, and the 7th Vial in Rev.16. Those are THREE examples of the event of Christ's return, spread out in His Book of Revelation. And it is impossible to read those events as if they occur in chronological order, for it would mean that He comes THREE TIMES per Revelation, which of course would be a joke!

So obviously, the events are not all in chronological order.
 

Truther

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Then you don't understand it at all, because the 6th Seal event in Rev.6 is about the day of Christ's coming, as also is the 7th trumpet in Rev.11, and the 7th Vial in Rev.16. Those are THREE examples of the event of Christ's return, spread out in His Book of Revelation. And it is impossible to read those events as if they occur in chronological order, for it would mean that He comes THREE TIMES per Revelation, which of course would be a joke!

So obviously, the events are not all in chronological order.
No, the vials are leading up to the 2nd coming(Rev 16:14), but no second coming in Rev 16.

Chapter 17 and 18 are about the harlot being destroyed.

Chapter 19 depicts the saints at the wedding, then the second coming of Christ to finish off what was left of the Armageddon victors in chapter 16.

The battle of Armageddon precedes the 2nd coming, which the antichrist who prevails over Armageddon, gets destroyed by Christ at the end of chapter 19.
 

Davy

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No, the vials are leading up to the 2nd coming(Rev 16:14), but no second coming in Rev 16.

Now you... are joking.

Jesus shows His coming on the 7th Vial in Revelation 16:15-17. The battle of Armageddon mentioned there is about the final battle He comes to fight with His army on the "day of the Lord" per Zechariah 14.

Chapter 17 and 18 are about the harlot being destroyed.

No, Rev.17 is a description identifying the harlot city and the beasts of Rev.13. Only Rev.18 is about her destruction. So once again, you show you really haven't studied Revelation that much.

Chapter 19 depicts the saints at the wedding, then the second coming of Christ to finish off what was left of the Armageddon victors in chapter 16.

The 1st part of Rev.19, as I have shown, is a view AFTER the great whore is destroyed, and then the 2nd part from Rev.19:11 to the end moves the view back to the day of Christ's coming with His army. Your denial of this won't change the Scripture as it is written. You will... eventually come to admit this is how it is written.
 

justbyfaith

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God has not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation through our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

I recently came to the revelation that this wrath is not only speaking of the lake of fire; but it also speaks of the Great Tribulation period; the day of the LORD...

Zep 1:14, The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zep 1:15, That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,


Luk 21:23, But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Therefore, I am now convinced of a pre-tribulation rapture.

That being said, it should be clear that the "foolish virgins" will indeed be left behind (see Matthew 25:1-13).

The foolish virgins being those who rely on others for their relationship with Christ and do not have their own relationship with Him.

They will be wanting to rely on the relationships of others when that day comes, drawing from their supply of "oil".

But the wise virgins will say to them, you need to have your own relationship with Christ, I cannot believe in Christ for you; you need to believe in Him yourself and live a life of trusting in Him. Go to those who preach the gospel and see if you can get your own relationship with Christ, before it is too late.

Otherwise, you will be found in the Great Tribulation, knocking on the doors of heaven that the Lord might open them to you; however in those days, men shall "seek for death, and shall not find it".

If you are a foolish virgin, you will be left behind, unless you can get a relationship with the Lord that works for you personally before it is too late.

Hurry! There is little time.
 

Truther

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Now you... are joking.

Jesus shows His coming on the 7th Vial in Revelation 16:15-17. The battle of Armageddon mentioned there is about the final battle He comes to fight with His army on the "day of the Lord" per Zechariah 14.



No, Rev.17 is a description identifying the harlot city and the beasts of Rev.13. Only Rev.18 is about her destruction. So once again, you show you really haven't studied Revelation that much.



The 1st part of Rev.19, as I have shown, is a view AFTER the great whore is destroyed, and then the 2nd part from Rev.19:11 to the end moves the view back to the day of Christ's coming with His army. Your denial of this won't change the Scripture as it is written. You will... eventually come to admit this is how it is written.
I will post the passage and show me when Jesus actually returns per the vision....


13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.

18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.



Please show me His return scene here, as we see in Rev 19.

Thanks.