Hebrews 10:26-31

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justbyfaith

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I wonder, however, if to "sin willfully" does not refer to any sin which is intentional against the Lord as a deliberate act of rebellion after having received Jesus as Saviour and Lord?

I find that those who are truly born again have fallen in love with Jesus Christ; and therefore it is not very likely that they would commit any deliberate acts of rebellion.

But, as it is written,

Nah 1:9, What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

There has already been one rebellion in which the devil and his angels fought against the Lord, Michael, and his angels. There will not be a second one...for a second one will be put down immediately and finally...especially since God has proven His point to all of heaven by letting satan's understanding of things play itself out on the earth so that people ask, "If there is really a God, why does He allow evil in the world?"
 
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101G

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Diversity can be a very good thing...!

I wonder, however, if to "sin willfully" does not refer to any sin which is intentional against the Lord as a deliberate act of rebellion after having received Jesus as Saviour and Lord?

I find that those who are truly born again have fallen in love with Jesus Christ; and therefore it is not very likely that they would commit any deliberate acts of rebellion.
I don't put anythig outside of satan devices. listen, Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

but we who are strong in God should always remind our brothers and sisters of this saving "GRACE", Matthew 12:31 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."
Matthew 12:32 "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

and, Hebrews 6:6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

another good example of this is in the Abram and Lot his brother's son story. when Lot chose the vally of green grass in Sodom, in time, were taken captive, as some christians are taken captive, or snared. just as Peter was ready to be taken captive by satan to be sifted. but his uncle came and save the day by God. but if Abraham did not have the Love of God in him, (here it's his own kin), we're kin by christ. and we with the same Love of God should come to each other's rescue. and we have many example of this, Galatians 6:1 "Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted." as in James with faults.

as said, if a brother or sister is willing not to heed, 1 Corinthians 5:5 "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.".

but restoration is the FIRST work.


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justbyfaith

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I don't put anything outside of satan's devices.

Psa 121:4, Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.
Psa 121:5, The LORD is thy keeper: the LORD is thy shade upon thy right hand.
Psa 121:6, The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night.
Psa 121:7, The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul.
Psa 121:8, The LORD shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore.

Psa 125:2, As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, so the LORD is round about his people from henceforth even for ever.
Psa 125:3, For the rod of the wicked shall not rest upon the lot of the righteous; lest the righteous put forth their hands unto iniquity.
 

101G

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Psa 121:4, Behold, he that keepeth Israel shall neither slumber nor sleep.
Psa 121:5, The LORD is thy keeper: the LORD is thy shade upon thy right hand.
Psa 121:6, The sun shall not smite thee by day, nor the moon by night.
Psa 121:7, The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul.
Psa 121:8, The LORD shall preserve thy going out and thy coming in from this time forth, and even for evermore.

Psa 125:2, As the mountains are round about Jerusalem, so the LORD is round about his people from henceforth even for ever.
Psa 125:3, For the rod of the wicked shall not rest upon the lot of the righteous; lest the righteous put forth their hands unto iniquity.
that's true, ON HIS PART, that's if, if, if, you're willing. yes, I know in the end he wins, but I'm speaking about a fault, or an action that is not perishable, or unto death.

that word "IF", we know God is a guarantee, but what about YOU?

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101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"
 
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amadeus

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I wonder, however, if to "sin willfully" does not refer to any sin which is intentional against the Lord as a deliberate act of rebellion after having received Jesus as Saviour and Lord?
...

I don't put anythig outside of satan devices. listen, Matthew 24:22 "And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

but we who are strong in God should always remind our brothers and sisters of this saving "GRACE", Matthew 12:31 "Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."
Matthew 12:32 "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come."

and, Hebrews 6:6 "If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
...
Shades of darkness! Shades of rebellion!

"Sinning willfully and blaspheming against the Holy Ghost probably overlap dependent upon where a person is in his walk with God at the moment. Perhaps someone very new to the Light, is still having trouble seeing clearly and doesn't realize fully that he needs to stop and consider or to stop and ask... All of his carnal life he blundered on ahead making his own decisions and causing his own failures. So now with the Holy Spirit, he quenches the Spirit and forges ahead to death or is only some chastisement in order?

Can we draw the line between sinning willfully and blaspheming against the Holy Ghost? The line probably differs in a given moment between you and me and the other fellow. God can draw the line for each one correctly and He certainly has done so... but we should not expect to see it for everyone else! This is why judgment belongs to the One who always see the whole picture for each one of us.

"Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee." Psalm 139:12

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Isaiah 45:7

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons." Gen 3:6-7

What were they afraid of that they felt the need to cover themselves lest they be seen... by whom or what?

"Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake. " Psalm 69:23

"Thou makest darkness, and it is night: wherein all the beasts of the forest do creep forth." Psalm 104:20

"Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;
A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness." Job 10:21-22

"He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies." Psalm 18:11

"If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me." Psalm 139:11

"For thou wilt light my candle: the LORD my God will enlighten my darkness." Psalm 18:28


What was the difference between Moses ,who after one act of rebellion was excluded from the Promised Land, and the 600,000 adults [without women and children] less 2, who were not excluded until after 10 rebellions?

The 600,000 died in the desert and I doubt they are ever heard from again in the scripture. Moses, on the other hand is seen meeting with Elijah and Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration. What was the difference? A sin unto death versus a forgivable sin? Hmmm?
 
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Ferris Bueller

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The words 'sin wilfully,' in this verse, I believe, refers specifically to the possibility of the deliberate turning back to Judaism by the Hebrew believers that the writer was addressing. For by doing so they would have 'trodden under foot the Son of God', would be, 'counting the blood of the Covenant unholy', and 'doing despite to the spirit of grace' (Hebrews10:29) . In the light of the enormity of this wilful sin the cross of Christ would be lost to them, for they would have turned their backs from the truth of the sacrificial offering of Christ Jesus as God's offering for sin, to go back under the law. (in this light the words of Hebrews 6:1-8 should be considered, to which the word 'illuminated' of 10:32 refers).

'Christ is become of no effect unto you,
whosoever of you are justified by the law;
ye are fallen from grace.'

(Gal 5:4)
We have the early Catholic church to thank for our profound ignorance of the old testament. But that is where so much understanding is derived for so-called difficult passages of the New Testament. In Hebrews 10:26-31, the author compares sinning in the willful rejection of the New Covenant of Priest and Sacrifice with the willful rejection of the old covenant of priest and sacrifice. He says if they were punished so severely by being cutoff from the covenant for rejecting the old covenant, how much more so for rejecting the New Covenant.....

Hebrews 10:26-31
26If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume all adversaries. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace?30For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay,”f and again, “The Lord will judge His people.”g 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


These are the passages about rejecting the law of Moses the author is referring to....

Deuteronomy 29:18-21
18Make sure there is no man or woman, clan or tribe among you today whose heart turns away from the LORD our God to go and worship the gods of those nations. Make sure there is no root among you that bears such poisonous and bitter fruit,c 19because when such a person hears the words of this oath,d he invokes a blessing on himself, saying, ‘I will have peace, even though I walk in the stubbornness of my own heart.’

This will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry. 20The LORD will never be willing to forgive him. Instead, His anger and jealousy will burn against that man, and every curse written in this book will fall upon him. The LORD will blot out his name from under heaven 21and single him out from all the tribes of Israel for disaster, according to all the curses of the covenant written in this Book of the Law.


Numbers 15:30-31
30But the person who sins defiantly, whether a native or foreigner, blasphemes the LORD. That person shall be cut off from among his people. 31He shall certainly be cut off, because he has despised the word of the LORD and broken His commandment; his guilt remains on him.”


There was no sacrifice provided in the old covenant for sinning in unbelief, and there isn't in this covenant either, even though @Blood Bought 1953 and others insist there is. Just like the old covenant, you can't willfully reject the New Covenant of Priest and Sacrifice and live in your old life in unbelief without being condemned to hell.

Now we can argue all day long if a true believer is capable of doing that, but what difference does it make? Having once believed, or having never believed, if you find yourself in the position of trampling on the Son of God by willfully sinning in unbelief you're going to hell. No theology of man is going to change that fact. Not even BB's heretical 'abounding grace' theology changes that truth. It doesn't matter if the person who falls under that condemnation was ever a believer or not. The point is the person who does that is going to hell. They are an unbeliever. Unbelievers do not inherit the kingdom of God.

Instead of focusing on that truth many in the church have comforted themselves with a horribly misguided once saved always saved theology that has them entering the kingdom of God at the end of the age no matter what. Instead of making sure they're really saved the way the Bible says to make sure you're saved, the church today makes salvation sure by saying once you are saved you are always saved no matter what. Not even unbelief being able to keep you from being saved. But as we see from the Bible, there is no truth whatsoever to that teaching.

The unbeliever goes to hell. Period. There is no grace given to allow an unbeliever living in his unchanged, willfully sinning life to enter into the kingdom. Grace does not abound all the more where there is no faith. The person who "invokes a blessing on himself, saying, ‘I will have peace, even though I walk in the stubbornness of my own heart’" (Deuteronomy 29:19) is going to hell, no matter what. That was true in the old covenant, and it is all the more true and severe in this New Covenant. No once saved always saved theology can change that truth.
 
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Ferris Bueller

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So now with the Holy Spirit, he quenches the Spirit and forges ahead to death or is only some chastisement in order?
The question is, is he quenching the Spirit because of unbelief, or because of weakness, fear, or ignorance? There is no forgiveness for the former. You can't turn your back on Christ in unbelief and be saved.

What was the difference between Moses who after one act of rebellion was excluded from the Promised Land, while the 600,000 adults [without women and children] less 2 were not excluded until after 10 rebellions?
Moses did not sin as the result of unbelief and a rejection of the Promises.

His error is useful as a picture of Christ. It was because of the stubborn unbelief of the people that God was angry with Moses and prevented him from entering in (Deuteronomy 4:21), and yet the people go in while he is cutoff. That's a picture of how Christ paid the penalty for the sins of the people and was cutoff while we, the ones who should be cutoff, lol, enter into the promises.

"...we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted.5But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities..." Isaiah 53:4-5
 
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Ferris Bueller

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Can we draw the line between sinning willfully and blaspheming against the Holy Ghost? The line probably differs in a given moment between you and me and the other fellow. God can draw the line for each one correctly and He certain has done so... but we should not expect to see it for everyone else! This is why judgment belongs to the One who always see the whole picture for each one of us.
I'm of the opinion that God gives the person who willfully rejects him time to come to his senses. And he does that in consideration of to what extent Christ has been revealed to them and what they are now responsible for. The Galatians are a good example of that. Though they willingly went back to Mosaic worship for the express purpose of being justified, thus making themselves accursed, God gave them the chance to come back to the truth. How much space did God give them to come back to the truth? Did they come back? We don't know. But one day we will. What we do know is if they didn't come back there is no such thing as grace abounding all the more to cover that sin. BB's teaching is dead wrong in that regard.
 
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charity

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We have the early Catholic church to thank for our profound ignorance of the old testament. But that is where so much understanding is derived for so-called difficult passages of the New Testament. In Hebrews 10:26-31, the author compares sinning in the willful rejection of the New Covenant of Priest and Sacrifice with the willful rejection of the old covenant of priest and sacrifice. He says if they were punished so severely by being cutoff from the covenant for rejecting the old covenant, how much more so for rejecting the New Covenant.....

Hebrews 10:26-31
26If we deliberately go on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no further sacrifice for sins remains, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume all adversaries. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think one deserves to be punished who has trampled on the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and insulted the Spirit of grace?30For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine; I will repay,”f and again, “The Lord will judge His people.”g 31It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


These are the passages about rejecting the law of Moses the author is referring to....

Deuteronomy 29:18-21
18Make sure there is no man or woman, clan or tribe among you today whose heart turns away from the LORD our God to go and worship the gods of those nations. Make sure there is no root among you that bears such poisonous and bitter fruit,c 19because when such a person hears the words of this oath,d he invokes a blessing on himself, saying, ‘I will have peace, even though I walk in the stubbornness of my own heart.’

This will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry. 20The LORD will never be willing to forgive him. Instead, His anger and jealousy will burn against that man, and every curse written in this book will fall upon him. The LORD will blot out his name from under heaven 21and single him out from all the tribes of Israel for disaster, according to all the curses of the covenant written in this Book of the Law.


Numbers 15:30-31
30But the person who sins defiantly, whether a native or foreigner, blasphemes the LORD. That person shall be cut off from among his people. 31He shall certainly be cut off, because he has despised the word of the LORD and broken His commandment; his guilt remains on him.”


There was no sacrifice provided in the old covenant for sinning in unbelief, and there isn't in this covenant either, even though @Blood Bought 1953 and others insist there is. Just like the old covenant, you can't willfully reject the New Covenant of Priest and Sacrifice and live in your old life in unbelief without being condemned to hell.

Now we can argue all day long if a true believer is capable of doing that, but what difference does it make? Having once believed, or having never believed, if you find yourself in the position of trampling on the Son of God by willfully sinning in unbelief you're going to hell. No theology of man is going to change that fact. Not even BB's heretical 'abounding grace' theology changes that truth. It doesn't matter if the person who falls under that condemnation was ever a believer or not. The point is the person who does that is going to hell. They are an unbeliever. Unbelievers do not inherit the kingdom of God.

Instead of focusing on that truth many in the church have comforted themselves with a horribly misguided once saved always saved theology that has them entering the kingdom of God at the end of the age no matter what. Instead of making sure they're really saved the way the Bible says to make sure you're saved, the church today makes salvation sure by saying once you are saved you are always saved no matter what. Not even unbelief being able to keep you from being saved. But as we see from the Bible, there is no truth whatsoever to that teaching.

The unbeliever goes to hell. Period. There is no grace given to allow an unbeliever living in his unchanged, willfully sinning life to enter into the kingdom. Grace does not abound all the more where there is no faith. The person who "invokes a blessing on himself, saying, ‘I will have peace, even though I walk in the stubbornness of my own heart’" (Deuteronomy 29:19) is going to hell, no matter what. That was true in the old covenant, and it is all the more true and severe in this New Covenant. No once saved always saved theology can change that truth.
'Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed,
not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you
both to will and to do of His good pleasure.'

(Philippians2:12-13)

Hello @Ferris Bueller,

I do not believe that someone who has been saved by God's grace, and is therefore placed 'in Christ' by God Himself (1 Corinthians 1:30-31), and in whom the work of God has begun (Philippians 1:6), can possibly be separated from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:38-39). Or that unbelief can ever be found in them.

We are His workmanship (Ephesians 2:10).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Ferris Bueller

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'Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed,
not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence,
work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you
both to will and to do of His good pleasure.'

(Philippians2:12-13)

Hello @Ferris Bueller,

I do not believe that someone who has been saved by God's grace, and is therefore placed 'in Christ' by God Himself (1 Corinthians 1:30-31), and in whom the work of God has begun (Philippians 1:6), can possibly be separated from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:38-39). Or that unbelief can ever be found in them.

We are His workmanship.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
That's fine. We're all entitled to think what we want about that. It's a rather meaningless contention. The important thing to know and believe is that the person who finds themselves willfully sinning in unbelief is not going to be saved when Jesus comes back. Unless he repents. Assuming the door is still open for that person to repent. Once saved always saved arguments are such a distraction to that very important truth.
 

charity

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That's fine. We're all entitled to think what we want about that. It's a rather meaningless contention. The important thing to know and believe is that the person who finds themselves willfully sinning in unbelief is not going to be saved when Jesus comes back. Unless he repents. Assuming the door is still open for that person to repent. Once saved always saved arguments are such a distraction to that very important truth.
Hello @Ferris Bueller,

The believer does not sin willfully, neither is he unbelieving. I agree that the unbelieving will be judged when Christ returns, for that is the testimony of Scripture, and not mere opinion.

The once-saved-always-saved argument is of your introduction. It has nothing to do with the entry I made, and to which you responded.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

amadeus

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The question is, is he quenching the Spirit because of unbelief, or because of weakness, fear, or ignorance? There is no forgiveness for the former. You can't turn your back on Christ in unbelief and be saved.
What I see in the OT example is a picture of our situation. All of those who followed Moses out of Egypt were saved from slavery. This to me is the people come to a church today and truly repent turning around from their former ways. All of them still have a road to walk to attain to the final salvation in a land "milk and honey". Most of them did not make it then. Most of them are not making it now. Most of them died in the wilderness then. Most of them are dying in the wilderness now even they may regularly be filling a pew, but missing the real Life which Jesus brought.
The are the few, the Caleb and Joshua types, but it is certainly not my job to sort them out even though I may be allowed to see where they have failed so that I might be able to help...

Moses did not sin as the result of unbelief and a rejection of the Promises.
I did not say that he did.
His error is useful as a picture of Christ. It was because of the stubborn unbelief of the people that God was angry with Moses and prevented him from entering in (Deuteronomy 4:21), and yet the people go in while he is cutoff. That's a picture of how Christ paid the penalty for the sins of the people and was cutoff while we, the ones who should be cutoff, lol, enter into the promises.

"...we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted.5But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities..." Isaiah 53:4-5

Sorting them all out is the thing. For Moses, Caleb and Joshua, we have evidence in the scripture that they did not end up badly with no hope in God. But who today is in the type of one of those? I see that there is a line, but I do not try to draw it for anyone else. I work on myself as I am able and I surrender to God as I can. When someone is open and/or expresses a need I will try to assist them. Ultimately however it is between each of us and God.
 

amadeus

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I'm of the opinion that God gives the person who willfully rejects him time to come to his senses. And he does that in consideration of to what extent Christ has been revealed to them and what they are now responsible for.
I agree! We are to be growing and to the extent we have already grown, we are responsible. However, God knows how much mercy He will have on a person who is like King David or like King Saul. The former sinned grievously, but was immediately willing to suffer the penalty of death provided as in the case of adultery and murder of which he was guilty on both counts in the case of Bathsheba and Uriah. Saul on the other hand was also guilty, but instead of humbling himself when confronted with his errors, he tried to justify himself or to blame on the people. God sees such differences in each of us. Both David and Saul had received the same anointing of God through the prophet Samuel. The difference was in what he did with what they had been given...!

The Galatians are a good example of that. Though they willingly went back to Mosaic worship for the express purpose of being justified, thus making themselves accursed, God gave them the chance to come back to the truth. How much space did God give them to come back to the truth? Did they come back? We don't know. But one day we will. What we do know is if they didn't come back there is no such thing as grace abounding all the more to cover that sin.
I believe we are at approximately the same place on the road here.

BB's teaching is dead wrong in that regard.
I have not read any of his posts, so I won't comment!
 
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mjrhealth

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This to me is the people come to a church today and truly repent turning around from their former way
Actually, Egypt was the church that God was taking people out of a form of slavery, even babylon a place of many voices,

Rev_18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Just like Egypt, come out , follow Me into the wilderness and I will make you strong.

Mar_1:12 And immediately the Spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

Heb_3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

Rev_12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Its where God prepares His people, but few are willing to go.

Exo_14:11 And they said unto Moses, Because there were no graves in Egypt, hast thou taken us away to die in the wilderness? wherefore hast thou dealt thus with us, to carry us forth out of Egypt?

See Heb 3:8 above
 
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mjrhealth

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I'm posting according to the thread topic, not your post specifically.
You either believe what Jesus did or you dont, you either believe He has and will save you or your dont, What you see and what he sees are two different things,

_1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
 
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Ferris Bueller

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You either believe what Jesus did or you dont, you either believe He has and will save you or your dont, What you see and what he sees are two different things,

_1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
Not real sure how this relates to what I was saying, except that I think you define 'saved' as 'always saved', right?
 

mjrhealth

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Not real sure how this relates to what I was saying, except that I think you define 'saved' as 'always saved', right?
Yes, dont you believe Him... It is finished, what part of finished is it that christians dont get, if you dont believe you are saved, than you have not enteerd into His rest, and you will always be at work trying to improve yourself