The Truth About The Rapture

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Duckybill

New Member
Feb 12, 2010
3,416
44
0
No, it's not.
Yes, contradiction. Thess was not written 200 years ago.
Where is "from earth" supported?
"Air" is the only thing. Could be our atmosphere or it could be some spiritualish place between heaven and earth. (I don't think it's spiritual as I think there's a good Biblical argument that nobody has ascended to Heaven- at least the place where God dwells- as well as the people still being ALIVE and there being no proof here of spiritual bodies).
The important part is that they are with the Lord and return to Earth with Him.
 

aspen

“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Apr 25, 2012
14,111
4,778
113
52
West Coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The problem is Ducky that Thess was expanded - added to by Darby about 200 years ago.
 

TexUs

New Member
Nov 18, 2010
1,197
37
0
Yes, contradiction. Thess was not written 200 years ago.
But the IDEA of "rapture to heaven to escape the doom"... The rapture... wasn't until 200 years ago and didn't gain any significant steam until the past century. Ask yourself what changed in culture during this time period and you might find a reasoning for why people would be looking for something like this- when people for over 1800 years nor the first century church didn't believe that was his intent.

The important part is that they are with the Lord and return to Earth with Him.
OK. Fair enough. But to what means?
Escape the wrath of God?

Again keep in mind the language used here is that they meet the individual (Christ) to bring him back (to earth). Christ's coming to earth isn't until after the wrath of God. So if this is your end-result in a "rapture" theory, it's still not supported.
 

Duckybill

New Member
Feb 12, 2010
3,416
44
0
But the IDEA of "rapture to heaven to escape the doom"... The rapture... wasn't until 200 years ago and didn't gain any significant steam until the past century. Ask yourself what changed in culture during this time period and you might find a reasoning for why people would be looking for something like this- when people for over 1800 years nor the first century church didn't believe that was his intent.
I have never gotten the IDEA of rapture to Heaven. I don't know where God's people will be, other than with the Lord, which is all that matters to me.
OK. Fair enough. But to what means?
Escape the wrath of God?
Of course, to escape the wrath of God. The wrath of God is for His enemies, not His own.
Again keep in mind the language used here is that they meet the individual (Christ) to bring him back (to earth). Christ's coming to earth isn't until after the wrath of God. So if this is your end-result in a "rapture" theory, it's still not supported.
When you start attacking the translation I see a red flag.
 

TexUs

New Member
Nov 18, 2010
1,197
37
0
Christians will never be subjected to his wrath, I agree, but I don't see anywhere where they won't be subjected to his judgement.
So I'll ask again, what difference does this verse make to you? You believe this "rapture" will happen after the first 14 judgement, and before the 7 bowls of wrath?
When you start attacking the translation I see a red flag.
You mean when I actually look at the ORIGINAL LANGUAGE in which it was written? Yeah... Red flags. :rolleyes:
The English language sucks. It takes sentences for us to express the same idea the Greeks could do in a word.
 

Martin W.

Active Member
Jan 16, 2009
817
37
28
70
Winnipeg Canada
Lets spell it out:

The new and early Christians excitedly awaited the return of Jesus.

Trouble is a couple of years went by and some of the Christians began to die.

The author of Thessalonians assured everybody not to grieve (for the dead Christians)

Because they would be resurrected first , and come back with Jesus. They will not miss out on anything. (Do not grieve for them)

Then , immediately after , we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. (Rapture)

We will all be together , those who have died in Christ , and we who are still alive at his coming.

The main message to the Thessalonians was this: .... do not grieve like the rest of mankind , who have no hope. (the unsaved)

-----------------------------

It is just that simple folks. Re-read 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 until you are blue in the face and finally understand it.

----------------------------

Now the one remaining problem , and the source of the endless rapture arguments is that ....... we do not know the exact timing of these events. We have not been given that information in a clearly defined manner. Therefore we must admit we are "unsure" of the timing . That is the correct answer. Stop the infighting.

--------------------------

Anyone who does not understand this , has their heads in concrete reinforced with bibles that they have never read properly.

I find most Christians love concrete. It makes them blue in the face from lack of air. It is a much more beneficial to go blue in the face from reading Thessalonians until you understand it's utterly simple message.

--------------------------

The LORD is the timekeeper. Not you , and not me. He may come for his church before , during, or after his wrath (on an unsaved world). Prepare for all and hope for the best.

Just do not try to tell anyone when it will , or will not happen. . None of us can influence the timing by our endless arguments. . Sorry..
 

Duckybill

New Member
Feb 12, 2010
3,416
44
0
Christians will never be subjected to his wrath, I agree, but I don't see anywhere where they won't be subjected to his judgement.
Guess you should define "judgement".
So I'll ask again, what difference does this verse make to you? You believe this "rapture" will happen after the first 14 judgement, and before the 7 bowls of wrath?
Really doesn't matter either way, for Christians who believe God's promises.

Psalm 46:1-2 (NKJV)
[sup]1 [/sup]God is our refuge and strength, A very present help in trouble. [sup]2 [/sup]Therefore we will not fear, Even though the earth be removed, And though the mountains be carried into the midst of the sea;
You mean when I actually look at the ORIGINAL LANGUAGE in which it was written? Yeah... Red flags. :rolleyes:
The English language sucks. It takes sentences for us to express the same idea the Greeks could do in a word.
No, I mean when someone proclaims him/herself to be more expert in the languages than the MANY translators of our English translations.
 

TexUs

New Member
Nov 18, 2010
1,197
37
0
Guess you should define "judgement".
The Bible is clear everyone will be judged. But Christians won't face the wrath (penalty) of God.


Now, where in Revelation??
I think the Trumpet and Seals are judgement and the Bowls are the wrath of God.


1 Corinthians 15:52, "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet."


This is just speculation on my part but the last trumpet, IMO, reference to the 7 trumpet judgements. We are here for the 7 seal judgements, the 7 trumpet judgements, and avoid (somehow) the 7 bowls of wrath. My personal hangup, to be transparent... Is Paul's other statement about meeting Christ in the air. The Greek language makes it seem like it'll be a quick thing, of course I also can't prove that we're in the air for an amount of time, and then come back after the 7 bowls are over.



No, I mean when someone proclaims him/herself to be more expert in the languages than the MANY translators of our English translations.
You can't explain the Greek word with just a single or even a few English words. There's no straight cut translation so the translators had to come up with a "best" fit, aka "meet".

This is just like the Greek kosmos. I use this as an example because everyone knows the verse it's used in (John 3:16). Kosmos was used by the Greeks as a reference sometimes to global or universal things, or localized and smaller things. You had to look at the context of the usage in order to determine meaning. For example, John 12:19, another use of "kosmos" but in this case it's obviously not the literal world.
"World" was just the "best" and "safest' English word to use, even though it doesn't accurately represent the Greek at all. Now, I just described (and even, not as well as I could have) the word kosmos to you pretty quickly and it took many sentences for me to describe it so you could understand that. Now, pick ONE English word that represents it...... You see the problem translators have.


We have this happen all over the Bible. It's why study is key. It's why translators all necessarily have to do a bit of INTERPRETATION which is also why, again, you must study to find the interpretation as it was intended.


So my point is still the same, when the Greek word used for "meet" is used it is used to describe the people going to meet someone, and then that someone accompanying them back to where they came from. That's the word! What English word do you use??? Again- it's a problem and why one must study the text to arrive at the proper conclusions verses just blindly taking the English translations, which are limited by the English language.

 

Duckybill

New Member
Feb 12, 2010
3,416
44
0
As far as the 'rapture' subject goes, I don't see where it really matters. It's not a matter of salvation. Interesting, yes.
 

Ed J

Member
Aug 11, 2010
35
2
8
There will be a rapture and that is a fact of scripture. The timing is the unknown part. Get over it folks.
Hi Martian,

What do you take these verses to mean...

Habakkuk 2:9-10 Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house,
that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil! Thou
hast consulted shame to thy house by cutting off many people, and hast sinned against thy soul.

God bless
Ed J
 

Vincent

New Member
Sep 6, 2010
48
6
0
Edmonton, Alberta
So you're saying you don't believe this clear Biblical statement?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 (NKJV)
[sup]17 [/sup]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

I'm joining the discussion late so I haven't read all posts. Sorry if you guys have moved on by now but I just wanted to add.

The verse above clearly refers to a very real event. We know that because it's in the Bible and there are no idle words in the Bible. The question is, how much of the description of this event is literal and how much of it is allegorical. What is the event that Paul is describing here?

I think the disagreement is not so much about whether or not there is a "rapture" but about what this word means to people. For most people it refers to a physical flying up off the face of the earth into the clouds to meet the others who were resurrected. But for me, the description Paul uses is clearly a metaphor for a resurrection/transformation into glorious incorruptible bodies. I don't believe people will actually "fly up into the clouds".

The end result is the same. We will be with Christ forever and we will be changed and that is of course the important part, but I don't like to use the word "rapture" to describe this event because it leaves people with the wrong expectation.

First of all, as for being physically caught up into the air, it just does not make sense. How can people inside buildings fly up into the air? Do they have to open the door first? What if it's locked? Will they miss the rapture? What of prisoners inside jail cells? What of miners working deep underground? What of sailors inside submarines? Obviously for those people to be "caught up" they would have to supernaturally disappear from those places and then reappear someplace else because their physical bodies can not fly up through those barriers. So right away we know that this is not a physical event.

So if God makes us supernaturally disappear from the face of the earth and then reappear someplace else, where would we reappear? In the clouds? That doesn't make sense. Why in the clouds? Why not go directly to heaven? Besides, what if it's a clear day, and there are no clouds? Clearly it does not make sense for us to fly up through or into the clouds, either physically or spiritually.

Therefore I can't believe that the phrase "being caught up in the clouds" is a reference to a physical event.

Secondly "clouds" are often used in scripture to depict power and glory. Therefore, I believe the phrase "them in the clouds" is simply referring to those resurrected in the first resurrection who were given power and glory. Those who are alive and remain being "caught up together with them", is simply allegorical for also being given power and glory.

I believe the verse above is reference to the event of the second resurrection, which includes those who are still alive, being given new glorious bodies, to become like those who took part in the first resurrection ("them in the clouds"). But I do not believe that we are to take the phrase "being caught up in the clouds" literally. It just does not make sense.
 
  • Like
Reactions: HammerStone

242006

New Member
Jun 9, 2010
298
10
0
So you think Paul who wrote nearly half the NT took the mark?

If you have read Paul's writings, there is no way in the world you could ask such a heretical question?

When the Thessalonians, much like Rapturists today, conjured up their own religion -- the 'any moment doctrine', Paul corrected them in his second letter -

2Th 2:2​
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4​
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul let the Thessalonians know that their 'any moment doctrine' was a false religion. The time for Christ's return is established after Satan rules the world in Jerusalem.

Moreover, Paul lets us know who is forcibly seized ['caught up'] when Christ returns -

1Co 15:51​
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

There is no special taking away of the 'Church'. All, the good, bad, pretty, and ugly, are all changed into spiritual bodies.


Paul, not only did not take the mark of the beast, he explains exactly why 'rapture' is a false religion. Rapture is Satan's doctrine.
 

TexUs

New Member
Nov 18, 2010
1,197
37
0
Vincent, Phillip was actually, physically, teleported to another location so I don't think you can discount a physical movement from one place to another.
 

242006

New Member
Jun 9, 2010
298
10
0
Anyone who does not understand this , has their heads in concrete reinforced with bibles that they have never read properly.

I find most Christians love concrete. It makes them blue in the face from lack of air. It is a much more beneficial to go blue in the face from reading Thessalonians until you understand it's utterly simple message.

You are living proof of God's promise -

2Th 2:10​
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

No matter how many times folks here prove you in error regarding 'rapture', you would rather believe the lies of 'rapture' then to receive Truth. God has promised that He will send you strong delusion and your quote above is proof thereof.

BTW, the penalty for your willing ignorance is spelled out here as well -- DAMNATION!

Enjoy your trip!
 

TexUs

New Member
Nov 18, 2010
1,197
37
0
As I said, even if God chose to do that, why would he teleport us into the clouds? It doesn't make sense.
I'd agree. But I'm saying, one can't discount "vaporization" entirely I don't think...

This also logically makes no sense. I see the Bible says nobody has been to the heaven where God sits. I don't see that ever changing.
However... It also does not make sense that we would be vaporized "somewhere" (like I said above, I don't think it can be heaven), wait out the bowls of wrath, and then return back.

Heaven is not the final place of believers, I think most futurists lose sight of that. Earth is. Getting raptured "to heaven" for all eternity doesn't make sense, we have to get moved back to earth at some point, and that's why the rapture to heaven thing just makes no logical sense.

I'd say the believers would all stay on earth, BUT: I don't believe they will see the wrath of God.

So I guess this is an interesting topic... Where do the people on earth go, during the wrath of God?
 

Vincent

New Member
Sep 6, 2010
48
6
0
Edmonton, Alberta
Agreed. I also don't think heaven is our destination. I only used that word to avoid branching off into another topic.
cool.gif
 

Rach1370

New Member
Apr 17, 2010
1,801
107
0
44
Australia
Hey guys. I've enjoyed reading your comments, they've been entertaining and wonderfully civil considering the topic! The Last Days have been an interest and a frustration for me, for it doesn't seem to matter which theory I consider, I'm still left with questions, and things that don't seem to add up.
So, to find peace on the subject I've had to just let it go. I know several things to be true:
1 I'm a Christian, so I'm confident of my salvation
2 God is completely sovereign, so despite things seeming unlikely or impossible or just strange, my God is completely capable of doing anything and everything!
3 God is completely in control, and His plan is a good and just one. So whatever happens just before or on Jesus' return, I can trust it will be for the best and that very soon I'll be with Jesus!

I often find it such a shame that Christians argue so venomously about their End Time scenarios. It's like they're missing the point....It's gonna happen, and we're going to be with Jesus forever!
I wish we could just stand behind that and talk of the wonder to come, rather than arguing over how it will come.