To be fair, while I agree with you, the quoted are bad support because you've missed the qualifying words: "to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. "
That doesn't eliminate nor provide for a rapture.
The Truth About The Rapture
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That doesn't eliminate nor provide for a rapture.
You are condemning a lot of people who truly believe and live for Jesus. If your doctrine is perfect then perhaps you will be saved. But then again, you will be judged as strictly as you are judging others.
Poor Paul clearly believed this:
[sup]17 [/sup]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Get your facts straight! I am not he one condemning/judging people -- it is the Word of God that condemns them. See 2 Thes. 2:11-12. A wise person, who actually reads the Word of God, would take such condemnation to heart and not be frivolous with false Rapture theory.
See prior post -- this scripture does not speak of the Rapture of the church.
The Thessalonians, like Rapturists today, bastardized Paul's teachings in 1 Thes. 4, which necessitated that Paul correct them in 2 Thes. 2:2-4.
See v. 2 -
2Th 2:2
That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
It is clear that the Thessalonians had created the 'any moment doctrine' based upon Paul's prior letter [1 Thes. 4]. Though, in v. 3, the translators added the phrase,
that day shall not come
it is clear from v. 2 that the subject is the return of Christ. Rapturists have made the same mistake as the Thessalonians did at the time of Paul.
This issue is not whether there will be a conversion from flesh [including spiritual] bodies to spiritual bodies, as the meaning in Greek of 'caught up' is 'forcibly seized'. Rapturists mistakenly take this Truth as proof of their theory, while dismissing context. The true issues regarding 'caught up' is context -- whom is converted, when are they converted, and where do they go once converted.
Therein lies the delusions of Rapture. V. 2-4 verifies 'when' Christ returns and the conversion that takes place at that time.
Did you not read what I said? I didn't say much. I agree it's talking about the return of Christ. And, THAT'S IT.
Your passage doesn't support nor provide for or against a rapture. The return of Christ is not what they'd call the rapture.
Your passage doesn't support nor provide for or against a rapture. The return of Christ is not what they'd call the rapture.
Vincent
New Member
Wow. Those are some great leaps you are taking there. None of those scriptures you refer to mention anything about rapture or rapture teaching.
Ezekiel 13:18-23 for one is warning against witchcraft. Specifically it is speaking against the Pleiades who used a particular kind of magic to "bind" souls of men.
[email protected]
Choir Loft
Early in 2010 a convention of Christian leaders assembled in South Africa to discuss the future of their efforts in that region. A friend of mine from west central Florida was in attendance and told me some of what transpired there.
Among other subjects, the dogma of the rapture was rejected from future reference and teaching.
Why?
Because it is divisive and is NOT efficacious to the growth and comfort of the church.
The ONLY result of the dogma is pointless BICKERING.
AND WE SEE A LEGION OF EXAMPLES OF IT HERE.
The whole thing is RUBBISH and ought to be treated as such. I certainly do.
Brothers and sisters who are usually accepting of one another's point of view suddenly become accusers and harsh critics.
If this isn't devilish, I don't know what is.
The funny thing about it all is that at the end of the conversation ABSOLUTELY NOTHING is accomplished or achieved. Right or wrong, there is nothing anyone can do about it. We might just as well argue about the morning sunrise as to waste computer cycles on this nonsense.
If there is anything which can contribute to the demise of the church and the stumbling of brothers and sisters it is divisiveness.
STOP IT.
Among other subjects, the dogma of the rapture was rejected from future reference and teaching.
Why?
Because it is divisive and is NOT efficacious to the growth and comfort of the church.
The ONLY result of the dogma is pointless BICKERING.
AND WE SEE A LEGION OF EXAMPLES OF IT HERE.
The whole thing is RUBBISH and ought to be treated as such. I certainly do.
Brothers and sisters who are usually accepting of one another's point of view suddenly become accusers and harsh critics.
If this isn't devilish, I don't know what is.
The funny thing about it all is that at the end of the conversation ABSOLUTELY NOTHING is accomplished or achieved. Right or wrong, there is nothing anyone can do about it. We might just as well argue about the morning sunrise as to waste computer cycles on this nonsense.
If there is anything which can contribute to the demise of the church and the stumbling of brothers and sisters it is divisiveness.
STOP IT.
Vincent
New Member
That has to be the most irresponsible thing I have ever heard come out of a Christian convention. Rejecting a concept because it is divisive? If we were to apply that criteria to the rest of the Bible we would have to reject probably 50% of it.
We will not all agree on many issues even though we are all children of God. That is not unusual, nor is it sinful. We just don't understand everything, but that is no reason to reject anything. Reject it if it is false, not because it is divisive.
I don't believe the rapture is in God's plans, that is why I reject the concept. But we have a duty to thoughtfully and prayerfully consider all of scripture and whatever concepts may arise out of it. Use your common sense and call on the Holy Spirit and you will learn what is true and what is false. When you try to shield yourself from divisive issues like this you are effectively rejecting God's guidance to lead you through.
And by the way, "bickering" is not going to bring about the demise of the church. If it were that flimsy it wouldn't be much of a church.
The funny thing is that I used to be a believer in rapture, but it is through discussions such as this and other readings I have done that I came to realize that there is no rapture. These discussions are not pointless. If the participants have a humble and open mind, much can be accomplished.
We will not all agree on many issues even though we are all children of God. That is not unusual, nor is it sinful. We just don't understand everything, but that is no reason to reject anything. Reject it if it is false, not because it is divisive.
I don't believe the rapture is in God's plans, that is why I reject the concept. But we have a duty to thoughtfully and prayerfully consider all of scripture and whatever concepts may arise out of it. Use your common sense and call on the Holy Spirit and you will learn what is true and what is false. When you try to shield yourself from divisive issues like this you are effectively rejecting God's guidance to lead you through.
And by the way, "bickering" is not going to bring about the demise of the church. If it were that flimsy it wouldn't be much of a church.
The funny thing is that I used to be a believer in rapture, but it is through discussions such as this and other readings I have done that I came to realize that there is no rapture. These discussions are not pointless. If the participants have a humble and open mind, much can be accomplished.
The Apostle John would be ashamed of your comments.
Revelation 1:3, Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.
You made no sense -- there are no 'qualifying words'.
Of course, and 2 Thes. 2:2-4 defeats rapture theory, which claims that Christ returns prior to Satan.
You contradict yourself. Or, you are unfamiliar with the Rapture theory.
Then, why do you believe in Rapture?? The word 'rapture' does not exist anywhere in the Bible.
You must be using a 'rapture' bible. See the KJV -
Eze 13:18 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Woe to the women that sew pillows to all armholes, and make kerchiefs upon the head of every stature to hunt souls! Will ye hunt the souls of my people, and will ye save the souls alive that come unto you?
Eze 13:19 And will ye pollute me among my people for handfuls of barley and for pieces of bread, to slay the souls that should not die, and to save the souls alive that should not live, by your lying to my people that hear your lies?
Eze 13:20 Wherefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows, wherewith ye there hunt the souls to make them fly, and I will tear them from your arms, and will let the souls go, even the souls that ye hunt to make them fly.
God is against fly away [escape] theology.
I hope I am doing a reply properly. anyhow here goes.
Veteran quoted some interesting verses from Isaiah Chapter 29 as follows:
"Isa 29:10-14
10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath He covered.
11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, "Read this, I pray thee": and he saith, "I cannot; for it is sealed":
12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, "Read this, I pray thee": and he saith, "I am not learned."
13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near Me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour Me, but have removed their heart far from Me, and their fear toward Me is taught by the precept of men:
14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
(KJV)
Can anyone answer these questions regarding this prophesy of Isaiah:
1. What is the book that was sealed? Does it have a name?
2. Who is the person that was learned that said he could not read a sealed book?
3. Who was the person to whom the book was delivered in the vision who said he was not learned?
4. Why did the Lord say "Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near Me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour Me, but have removed their heart far from Me, and their fear toward Me is taught by the precept of men:
5. To whom was the above scripture referring?
6. We are then taught that the Lord would " proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid." What was or is this marvelous work and a wonder that the LORD PROMISED TO DO? When and where has this been fulfilled? Can anyone give a clear account of it's fulfillment?
(KJV)
Vincent
New Member
I don't believe in rapture.
God is against witchcraft.
I agree with you that there is no rapture but I don't agree that your examples prove it.
I have not twisted anything. You love the lie of Rapture more than God's Truth. As long as you allow your thumb-sucking rapture be your redemption instead of the Truth, God will aid you in your delusion [2 Thes. 2:11-12].
Somehow, I think you already know parts of the answers. But if not, here goes...
It's The Bible, God's Holy Writ. God's Message back in Isaiah 28 is linked with what is being said about Jerusalem and rebellious leaders of Ariel (Judah in Jerusalem) in Isaiah 29.
The "drunkards of Ephraim" and the "scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem" (back in Isaiah 28).
A figurative person, but pointing to the leaders of Ephraim and rulers of Jerusalem, and 'their' prophets and seers back in Isaiah 28 (i.e., later Saduccees and Pharisees).
It's because of what those mocking leaders said about His Word back in Isaiah 28. They hated the idea that understanding comes from line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little type study in His Word. Instead, groups among Judah in Jerusalem like the Sadduccees and Pharisees would later create their own precepts, their "precepts of men". Christ called those "commandments of men" and "the tradition of men".
Once again, to the deceived leaders of Ephraim and Judah mentioned back at Isaiah 28.
It's about God's "strange work" that He said He would fulfill upon this earth, in two parts. The first part was with Christ's coming to die on the cross to offer remission of sins of many, and the second part is Christ's return to pour out judgment upon the wicked. The consumption below in Isaiah 28:22 is about Christ's second coming. The John 9 opening of the eyes of those who believe was the first part about His first coming.
Isa 28:21-22
21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act.
22 Now therefore be ye not mockers, lest your bands be made strong: for I have heard from the Lord GOD of hosts a consumption, even determined upon the whole earth.
(KJV)
John 9:39-40
39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
40 And some of the Pharisees which were with Him heard these words, and said unto Him, Are we blind also?
(KJV)
But I'll bet you thought all that was about Daniel???
But don't stop reading in Isaiah 29, for the flow of God's Message there in Isaiah continues into the 30th chapter too...
Isa 30:1-23
1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of Me; and that cover with a covering, but not of My spirit, that they may add sin to sin:
2 That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not asked at My mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt!
3 Therefore shall the strength of Pharaoh be your shame, and the trust in the shadow of Egypt your confusion.
4 For his princes were at Zoan, and his ambassadors came to Hanes.
5 They were all ashamed of a people that could not profit them, nor be an help nor profit, but a shame, and also a reproach.
Judah in Jerusalem sought Egypt's help against the coming Assyrian instead of asking our Heavenly Father for help (next Isaiah 31 chapter). But Egypt could not help them, nor with the king of Babylon who came upon Judah in Jerusalem and took them captive to Babylon.
6 The burden of the beasts of the south: into the land of trouble and anguish, from whence come the young and old lion, the viper and fiery flying serpent, they will carry their riches upon the shoulders of young asses, and their treasures upon the bunches of camels, to a people that shall not profit them.
7 For the Egyptians shall help in vain, and to no purpose: therefore have I cried concerning this, Their strength is to sit still.
God tells Isaiah the rebellious leaders in Jerusalem won't get help from Egypt, for Egypt's strength is to sit still.
8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
God then tells Isaiah to write all this down in a book (Book of Isaiah), for the time to come, and for how long? For ever. Maybe for those in Christ Jesus today as a lesson even? Yes. For both Judah and Ephraim today also, the TWO HOUSES OF ISRAEL which God separated a long time ago, which are still separated today. Ephraim today represents the Christian West, God's spiritual Israel primarily in the West today that began with the western Christian nations, the new "nation" bearing His fruits which Christ Jesus pointed to in the parable of the husbandmen (Matt.21).
9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
Has that been happenning among both houses of Israel today, among both the rulers of Jerusalem and the drunkards of Ephraim (rulers in the Christian West)? Yes, for there's ruling elements within Christ's Body that have no intention of preaching God's Word line upon line, i.e., full strength, but only the milk of God's Word, and that even mixed with their "precepts of men".
The orthodox Jews have continued in their version of the "precepts of men" also today. God's Word line upon line, chapter by chapter isn't good enough in many Churches today. Studying It for yourself line upon line is the only way you're going to really get God's Truth today. Instead, many of the people want "smooth things" preached in their ears, and the pre-trib rapture lie is especially one of them. The false idea that Christ's second coming is in the spiritual sense only, and already past is just as bad. God's Word line upon line is unpopular today within much of Christ's Body today. So this Isaiah prophecy is a dual fulfillment prophecy, and very much is still in effect for today, all the way to the end of this world with Christ's future second coming.
12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
That's connected with God's idea He gave in Ezekiel 13 about their building a false wall with untempered mortar, ready to fall down as soon as a storm hits it. Remember, this Message began all the way back in Isaiah 28 about the leaders of both Ephraim and Judah. (It actually began even earlier in Isaiah too with God's spiritual harlot analogies applied to His people). Remember Apostle Paul's warning in 1 Thess.5 of when the deceived will say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them. That's what this is linked to, the time of Christ's second coming to this earth as a thief in the night upon these deceived who want and preach "smooth things" instead of God's Word line upon line. Their refusing His Word line upon line is what their despising His Word is about. Because of that, they come up with their own doctrines and traditions to supplant God's Word (how's that Church Quarterly sound sent to preachers and Sunday School teachers from the denominational headquarters? Who's been trusting in it lately, instead of God's Word line upon line?).
14 And He shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; He shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.
God is going to bust that false clay pot into pieces (i.e., the "precepts of men" used to replace His Word line upon line). It'll be in so many small pieces one won't be able to use any little part to lift fire from the hearth, or to draw a sip of water.
15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.
16 But ye said, "No; for we will flee upon horses; therefore shall ye flee: and, We will ride upon the swift"; therefore shall they that pursue you be swift.
Those rebellious rulers and their deceived will think to escape upon swift horses, but what does God say there? Those who pursue them will be just as swift, catching up to them. That's put for His enemies going after the deceived of His people, TODAY included, for this is especially about the endtimes also.
17 One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one; at the rebuke of five shall ye flee: till ye be left as a beacon upon the top of a mountain, and as an ensign on an hill.
They're going to be like a warning beacon on top of a hill, which is a warning for others to not tread that way. (got to go into Hebrew a bit for that one).
18 And therefore will the LORD wait, that He may be gracious unto you, and therefore will He be exalted, that He may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for Him.
Now God begins a blessing upon His servants who remain in Him, by doing what for Him? Those that seek to escape? No, those that WAIT FOR HIM. That's about waiting for the time of Christ's second coming in our near future. This idea of only those who 'wait' for Him become blessed is given several times in the OT prophets (like end of Dan.12 also).
19 For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem: thou shalt weep no more: He will be very gracious unto thee at the voice of thy cry; when He shall hear it, He will answer thee.
20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:
21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.
22 Ye shall defile also the covering of thy graven images of silver, and the ornament of thy molten images of gold: thou shalt cast them away as a menstruous cloth; thou shalt say unto it, Get thee hence.
23 Then shall He give the rain of thy seed, that thou shalt sow the ground withal; and bread of the increase of the earth, and it shall be fat and plenteous: in that day shall thy cattle feed in large pastures.
(KJV)
All this from verse 19 is for AFTER Christ's future second coming. And it's ONLY for those of Christ's servants that remain "a chaste virgin" waiting for His return to Jerusalem as written in Zech.14. It's my hope in that day, the many of God's people that are deceived about the coming false messiah prior to Christ's return, will after Christ's return throw down their idol they were deceived into for the tribulation, casting it away like a dirty menstruous cloth. But for those not deceived today, that wait for Christ's future return, will no longer have to put up with the bread of adversity and water of affliction from today's false prophets and their deceived servants that are among God's people (of Ephraim and Judah). In that time, after Christ's return, we will see the true teachers called of God.
Isa 30:1-23
1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of Me; and that cover with a covering, but not of My spirit, that they may add sin to sin:
2 That walk to go down into Egypt, and have not asked at My mouth; to strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh, and to trust in the shadow of Egypt!
3 Therefore shall the strength of Pharaoh be your shame, and the trust in the shadow of Egypt your confusion.
4 For his princes were at Zoan, and his ambassadors came to Hanes.
5 They were all ashamed of a people that could not profit them, nor be an help nor profit, but a shame, and also a reproach.
Judah in Jerusalem sought Egypt's help against the coming Assyrian instead of asking our Heavenly Father for help (next Isaiah 31 chapter). But Egypt could not help them, nor with the king of Babylon who came upon Judah in Jerusalem and took them captive to Babylon.
6 The burden of the beasts of the south: into the land of trouble and anguish, from whence come the young and old lion, the viper and fiery flying serpent, they will carry their riches upon the shoulders of young asses, and their treasures upon the bunches of camels, to a people that shall not profit them.
7 For the Egyptians shall help in vain, and to no purpose: therefore have I cried concerning this, Their strength is to sit still.
God tells Isaiah the rebellious leaders in Jerusalem won't get help from Egypt, for Egypt's strength is to sit still.
8 Now go, write it before them in a table, and note it in a book, that it may be for the time to come for ever and ever:
God then tells Isaiah to write all this down in a book (Book of Isaiah), for the time to come, and for how long? For ever. Maybe for those in Christ Jesus today as a lesson even? Yes. For both Judah and Ephraim today also, the TWO HOUSES OF ISRAEL which God separated a long time ago, which are still separated today. Ephraim today represents the Christian West, God's spiritual Israel primarily in the West today that began with the western Christian nations, the new "nation" bearing His fruits which Christ Jesus pointed to in the parable of the husbandmen (Matt.21).
9 That this is a rebellious people, lying children, children that will not hear the law of the LORD:
10 Which say to the seers, See not; and to the prophets, Prophesy not unto us right things, speak unto us smooth things, prophesy deceits:
11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.
Has that been happenning among both houses of Israel today, among both the rulers of Jerusalem and the drunkards of Ephraim (rulers in the Christian West)? Yes, for there's ruling elements within Christ's Body that have no intention of preaching God's Word line upon line, i.e., full strength, but only the milk of God's Word, and that even mixed with their "precepts of men".
The orthodox Jews have continued in their version of the "precepts of men" also today. God's Word line upon line, chapter by chapter isn't good enough in many Churches today. Studying It for yourself line upon line is the only way you're going to really get God's Truth today. Instead, many of the people want "smooth things" preached in their ears, and the pre-trib rapture lie is especially one of them. The false idea that Christ's second coming is in the spiritual sense only, and already past is just as bad. God's Word line upon line is unpopular today within much of Christ's Body today. So this Isaiah prophecy is a dual fulfillment prophecy, and very much is still in effect for today, all the way to the end of this world with Christ's future second coming.
12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:
13 Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant.
That's connected with God's idea He gave in Ezekiel 13 about their building a false wall with untempered mortar, ready to fall down as soon as a storm hits it. Remember, this Message began all the way back in Isaiah 28 about the leaders of both Ephraim and Judah. (It actually began even earlier in Isaiah too with God's spiritual harlot analogies applied to His people). Remember Apostle Paul's warning in 1 Thess.5 of when the deceived will say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" will come upon them. That's what this is linked to, the time of Christ's second coming to this earth as a thief in the night upon these deceived who want and preach "smooth things" instead of God's Word line upon line. Their refusing His Word line upon line is what their despising His Word is about. Because of that, they come up with their own doctrines and traditions to supplant God's Word (how's that Church Quarterly sound sent to preachers and Sunday School teachers from the denominational headquarters? Who's been trusting in it lately, instead of God's Word line upon line?).
14 And He shall break it as the breaking of the potters' vessel that is broken in pieces; He shall not spare: so that there shall not be found in the bursting of it a sherd to take fire from the hearth, or to take water withal out of the pit.
God is going to bust that false clay pot into pieces (i.e., the "precepts of men" used to replace His Word line upon line). It'll be in so many small pieces one won't be able to use any little part to lift fire from the hearth, or to draw a sip of water.
15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.
16 But ye said, "No; for we will flee upon horses; therefore shall ye flee: and, We will ride upon the swift"; therefore shall they that pursue you be swift.
Those rebellious rulers and their deceived will think to escape upon swift horses, but what does God say there? Those who pursue them will be just as swift, catching up to them. That's put for His enemies going after the deceived of His people, TODAY included, for this is especially about the endtimes also.
17 One thousand shall flee at the rebuke of one; at the rebuke of five shall ye flee: till ye be left as a beacon upon the top of a mountain, and as an ensign on an hill.
They're going to be like a warning beacon on top of a hill, which is a warning for others to not tread that way. (got to go into Hebrew a bit for that one).
18 And therefore will the LORD wait, that He may be gracious unto you, and therefore will He be exalted, that He may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for Him.
Now God begins a blessing upon His servants who remain in Him, by doing what for Him? Those that seek to escape? No, those that WAIT FOR HIM. That's about waiting for the time of Christ's second coming in our near future. This idea of only those who 'wait' for Him become blessed is given several times in the OT prophets (like end of Dan.12 also).
19 For the people shall dwell in Zion at Jerusalem: thou shalt weep no more: He will be very gracious unto thee at the voice of thy cry; when He shall hear it, He will answer thee.
20 And though the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:
21 And thine ears shall hear a word behind thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.
22 Ye shall defile also the covering of thy graven images of silver, and the ornament of thy molten images of gold: thou shalt cast them away as a menstruous cloth; thou shalt say unto it, Get thee hence.
23 Then shall He give the rain of thy seed, that thou shalt sow the ground withal; and bread of the increase of the earth, and it shall be fat and plenteous: in that day shall thy cattle feed in large pastures.
(KJV)
All this from verse 19 is for AFTER Christ's future second coming. And it's ONLY for those of Christ's servants that remain "a chaste virgin" waiting for His return to Jerusalem as written in Zech.14. It's my hope in that day, the many of God's people that are deceived about the coming false messiah prior to Christ's return, will after Christ's return throw down their idol they were deceived into for the tribulation, casting it away like a dirty menstruous cloth. But for those not deceived today, that wait for Christ's future return, will no longer have to put up with the bread of adversity and water of affliction from today's false prophets and their deceived servants that are among God's people (of Ephraim and Judah). In that time, after Christ's return, we will see the true teachers called of God.
[email protected]
Choir Loft
Smoke and mirrors - cloaking the truth.
The apostle John NEVER used the word rapture and NEVER created the doctrine.
It was originally formulated by John Darby in 1830 - unless of course you are assuming that Mr. Darby was an apostle.
The word rapture is an artificial construction of the American English language.
The subject is NOT an important point of discussion in any other country except America WHERE POINTLESS BICKERING is mistaken for gospel truth.
I said it before and I'll say it again; the rapture is a false doctrine because it DOES NOTHING to edify the church, DOES NOTHING to guide a Christian in faith and DOES NOTHING with regard to salvation and grace. It is an erroneous interpretation of a false conclusion about scripture BECAUSE those confused persons who believe in it cannot even agree amongst themselves about its advent, its purpose or conclusions about its meaning. Like evolutionists they hold to three or four separate theories about the rapture; each one conclusively proving (hahahahaha) that the others aren't possible.
Doesn't anyone see how ludicrous this all is? The dogma of the rapture is anti-faith. As for me, my faith is that Christ will see me through ANY devilish situation. THAT is the promise of scripture and the gospel.
You can stand with John Darby if you wish, but I STAND WITH JESUS CHRIST ON THIS ISSUE.
I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one.
Joh 17:15
It doesn't get any clearer than this kiddo.
Now let's all sit back and watch how those who love a lie subvert the words of Jesus Christ and prove that the Son of God is a liar.
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Choir Loft
I stand corrected, I see what you mean now after clarification of Christ prior to Satan.
Good work. Pretty damning to escapists' theory.
I never said he did.
I was addressing your promotion of not teaching or addressing because it can be divisive. The Apostles clearly thought it was beneficial and not to be ignored.
I agree the rapture does nothing. I don't believe it. I was, again, addressing the assertion to ignore something because it can be divisive.
Now, if the council you mentioned was just to "not promote the rapture, and just study what's written", then I'm sorry and I misunderstood. But it sounds to me like you were wrapping all end-times stuff into this as well.
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