The Truth About The Rapture

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242006

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:blink: I'm sorry. I'm not sure If I'm misunderstanding you here. I call myself a Christian....are you suggesting that all Christians, myself included, are actually Satan's demons? Or are you suggesting that Christians who believe in the Rapture are demons? Because both are horribly wrong, and terribly un-Christ like. Not to mention totally unbiblical. I'm very much hoping that I've just misunderstood you!

You would have to give me your definition of 'demon'. I doubt it that it coincides with my definition. I cannot fully answer your questions until I know what you mean by 'demon'.

Notwithstanding a lack of understanding of terminology, I will attempt to answer by saying 'NO' to your questions. To clarify, Christians are the target audience for deception when Satan is released onto the earth. Hence, most of the 1/3 of souls that fell with Satan in the first age are the so-called Christians of today. God wants to know who, out ot the 1/3 that fell in the first age, earn a trip to the Lake of Fire in this flesh dispensation of time. The 1/3 that fell would not be the non-christians; however, some are for sure. Satan's chieftans in the first age would likely be the Kenites in this age.
 

TexUs

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The harvest of the earth is the second resurrection. This happens just before the seventh trumpet is blown.
Yes, that's what I've personally always thought as well, but I had to use "at the last trumpet" to arrive at that conclusion.


The seven bowls are God's wrath. Not the seals or the trumpets, only the bowls.
Again, also what I've always thought... I just didn't have a working timeline that fit together like you have ;)

Just before the seventh trumpet sounds, the mystery will be accomplished. The mystery of God is the final resurrection and transformation of the righteous into eternal life.
And one would assume salvation for non believers ends after this point? Or earlier?

Notice when the grapes of wrath are gathered, they are "trampled in the winepress outside the city". When the beast and his armies are defeated by Jesus (after Satan had been released from his prison) they had "surrounded the city". In this description in Revelation 20:7-10, it is explained that fire comes down from heaven and devours them. This fire is the sharp sickle that harvests the grapes of wrath.
Wait so you think Revelation 20 is the same event as in 14? How do you arrive at that conclusion? I agree this probably refers to an army but I don't see how one can possibly link the two events.
 

Vincent

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Isn't it obvious? Both both occur after the thousand years are over. How can they not be the same event? Let me explain my timeline in a little more detail.


Our resurrection/transformation (which most people refer to as the rapture event) happens just before the seventh trumpet sounds.

Revelation 10:6-7 "There will be no more delay! But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be accomplished".

Just before the seventh trumpet sounds, the mystery will be accomplished. The mystery of God is the final resurrection and transformation of the righteous into eternal life.


1 Corinthians 2:7 No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—


Now, let’s try to establish when, in relation to other events, is the seventh trumpet blown.
When the seventh trumpet blows, Revelation tells us three things.

1. The kingdom of God begins and he will reign forever and ever.
2. God’s wrath has come.
3. Time for the judging of the dead.
So we see that God’s everlasting kingdom begins when the seventh trumpet blows, which means that for this to happen before the millennium, the millennium must be (a part of) God’s everlasting kingdom. But can God’s everlasting kingdom begin when we know that Satan will be released again in a thousand years? How is that possible? How is it possible for Satan to be released into God’s perfect kingdom? And since we know that God’s kingdom is to last “forever and ever” we can not put a thousand year limit on it. In other words, it’s impossible to reconcile God’s kingdom beginning before Satan is released from his prison to deceive the nations. Using simple logic we can see that the millennium is not God’s kingdom and God’s kingdom must begin after Satan is done away with, after the millennium.

But if that’s not enough, we also know that the judging of the dead (which happens at the 7th trumpet) happens after Satan is thrown into the lake of fire. And, at the time of judging, “death and Hades” are thrown into the lake of fire, so there is no more death after the time of judging which begins when the seventh trumpet blows. How then can this trumpet blow before the millennium? We know that Satan will bring the armies of the earth against Jerusalem after the millennium, but if there is no more death, then what’s the point? If you can’t kill anyone, why have an army? This proves that when Satan is released from his prison after the millennium death has not yet been thrown into the lake of fire. Which means that the seventh trumpet can not have blown before the millennium.

Now let’s see how the harvest and wrath fit into all of this.

Revelation 14:14-19. This passage describes the “harvest of the earth” and the “grapes of wrath”. The harvest of the earth is the second resurrection. This happens just before the seventh trumpet is blown. Then the harvest of the grapes happens just after the seventh trumpet is blown. We know this because the description of the grapes being trampled is a description of the pouring out of God's seven bowls of wrath. The seven bowls are God's wrath. Not the seals or the trumpets, only the bowls. So the seventh trumpet blows just after our resurrection/transformation and before wrath.

Now notice the similarities between the grapes of wrath and what happens to Satan after the millennium.

The Grapes of Wrath

Notice when the grapes of wrath are gathered, they are "trampled in the winepress outside the city" (Revelation 14:20). When the beast and his armies are defeated by Jesus (after Satan had been released from his prison) they had "surrounded the city". In this description in Revelation 20:7-10, it is explained that fire comes down from heaven and devours them. This fire is the sharp sickle that harvests the grapes of wrath.

Notice also in the description of the grapes being trampled in the winepress that it relates the depth of the blood to "horses bridles". The horses are representative of an army. Clearly when the grapes are trampled outside the city it is an army surrounding the city. Just as depicted in
Revelation 20:7-10.

So the description of the grapes being trampled in the winepress of God’s wrath is the same event described in Revelation 20, which we know happens after the millennium.

The Battle of Armageddon is similarly depicted several different ways in Revelation.

The Battle of Armageddon

The first reference to the battle of Armageddon is in Revelation 16:12-16[sup]12[/sup] Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great Euphrates River, and it dried up so that the kings from the east could march their armies toward the west without hindrance. [sup]13[/sup] And I saw three evil[sup][a][/sup] spirits that looked like frogs leap from the mouths of the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet. [sup]14[/sup] They are demonic spirits who work miracles and go out to all the rulers of the world to gather them for battle against the Lord on that great judgment day of God the Almighty.

[sup]15[/sup] “Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.”

[sup]16[/sup] And the demonic spirits gathered all the rulers and their armies to a place with the Hebrew name Armageddon.[sup][b][/sup]


“Armageddon” is the Hebrew word for “Megiddo” which is a place about 100 km north of Jerusalem. This is where they gather to prepare for battle. Notice that this description is part of the sixth bowl, which is after the harvest of the earth.

The second reference to this battle is in Revelation 19:19. Here the word Armageddon is not used but the description is the same.

Revelation 19:19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.

The third reference to this battle is in Revelation 20:7-10. This description is clear that the battle happens after the thousand years are over.

Revelation 20:7-10 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison [sup]8[/sup] and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. [sup]9[/sup]They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. [sup]10[/sup] And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

In all three references, Satan gathers all the armies of the earth and marches against Jerusalem. Clearly they are all describing the same event. Which proves that the trumpets and bowls all take place after the millennium.

And most importantly, when the seventh bowl is poured out, God says “it is done!”. It can not be done if Satan still has some cards to play. It can only be done when it is all done. That is irrefutable.

This is the only way Revelation does not contradict itself. If anyone thinks this timeline does not hold water, prove it with scripture.

 

Martin W.

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Dear watchman

I said
Martin W., on 11 January 2011 - 08:09 PM, said:

It is an absolute fact of scripture that sometime in the future , living Christians will be translated to meet the Lord in the air. (rapture)

Then you said
Does Christ reign on earth [terra firma] or in the atmosphere with the clouds?? If you answered 'earth', you are correct. Hence, if you believe the word 'air' to mean 'atmosphere'/'sky', you have a dilemma -

to which I reply ....... you are changing disguises in midstream ,
the topic is Jesus meeting his church in the air ,
the topic is not the reign of Jesus

then you went on to say:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

If Christ is going to reign on earth, then we cannot forever be with Christ in the 'atmosphere'/'sky'.

Yes we will be with the Lord forevermore once he meets us in the clouds in the air.
You have (incorrectly) brought up the reign of Christ (on earth)
The topic is the gathering in the air, not the reign on earth. They are separate functions.

then I said
(Martin W.)
This happens right after the resurrection of the Christians from the grave.

then you said
Christians are not in the grave [nor is anyone else].

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Upon death, our 'breath of life bodies' all return to God. They are not in a hole in the ground as you claim. Your belief is simply unbiblical!!

to which I reply ..... the Thessalonian Christians who had passed away were indeed in a hole in the ground awaiting a bodily resurrection (and presumably uniting with their souls). Just like Jesus had a bodily resurrection. Just like the old testament saints who had a bodily resurrection (out of the graves) (out of holes in the ground) when the temple curtain was torn at the death of Jesus.

That is what resurrection is , a new (eternal) body gathered from the graves , the tombs, the ash pit , the sea, .

If we have to go back and define the bodily resurrection of Jesus (a fundamental christian doctrine) then we have no business teaching future events. Jesus came back with his new eternal body , nail scars and all , he could enter a room without opening the door , He is the firstborn of the resurrection that we will participate in in the future. That was the whole purpose.

Which makes me want to conclude by saying ..... back to the elementary teachings , sheesh !!!!!


MartinW
May we all Drink lots of milk before trying to eat solid food.
It is the proper christian diet.
 

242006

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Dear watchman

I said


Then you said


to which I reply ....... you are changing disguises in midstream ,
the topic is Jesus meeting his church in the air ,
the topic is not the reign of Jesus

You are avoiding the question as to the location of the eternal reign of Christ -- on earth [terra firma] or in the 'air' [atmosphere/sky]. Which is it??

1Th 4:17​
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


You see, your 'rapture' theory does speak of the eternal reign of Christ. Your rapture religion claims that Christians will be with the Lord forever in the atomosphere/sky among the vaporous clouds. However true Christians know that Christ's reign is on earth [terra firma] and not in the sky.

I have previously addressed your misinterpretation of the words 'clouds' and 'air'. This scripture has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with vaporous clouds and meeting Christ in the atmosphere/sky.

then you went on to say:


Yes we will be with the Lord forevermore once he meets us in the clouds in the air.
You have (incorrectly) brought up the reign of Christ (on earth)
The topic is the gathering in the air, not the reign on earth. They are separate functions.

No they aren't -- forever is forever. If rapture were true, forever would be in the sky/atmosphere and not on earth [terra firma].

to which I reply
..... the Thessalonian Christians who had passed away were indeed in a hole in the ground awaiting a bodily resurrection (and presumably uniting with their souls). Just like Jesus had a bodily resurrection. Just like the old testament saints who had a bodily resurrection (out of the graves) (out of holes in the ground) when the temple curtain was torn at the death of Jesus.

That is not the message Paul gives in correcting the Thessalonians. See 2 Thes. 2:2-4. The correcting message was about the return of Christ -- not where souls go upon death of the flesh.

That is what resurrection is , a new (eternal) body gathered from the graves , the tombs, the ash pit , the sea,

I already proved you in error on this. All souls, upon death of the flesh, are with God who gave them. The flesh body returns to dust -- never to be resurrected. You need to learn this fact.

If we have to go back and define the bodily resurrection of Jesus (a fundamental christian doctrine) then we have no business teaching future events. Jesus came back with his new eternal body , nail scars and all , he could enter a room without opening the door , He is the firstborn of the resurrection that we will participate in in the future. That was the whole purpose.

Christ was transfigured for the benefit of the doubters. He, alone, was resurrected in such fashion to prove that he was/is the only begotten Son of God. None of us have our flesh bodies resurrected in such fashion. Even when Christ's dead body was lying in the tomb, Christ's spirit was not there with the dead body.

Hence, your belief that our souls remain in a dead flesh body is completely unfounded in scripture. It is not a Christian belief.

Which makes me want to conclude by saying ..... back to the elementary teachings , sheesh !!!!!


MartinW
May we all Drink lots of milk before trying to eat solid food.
It is the proper christian diet.

You are the one in gross error and in need of elementary teachings as evident by your lack of understanding as to where souls go upon death of the flesh. Rapture is the result of your warped understanding of scripture. So far, you have demonstrated no scholarship whatsoever in Bible basics.
 

TexUs

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The harvest of the earth is the second resurrection. This happens just before the seventh trumpet is blown.
The mystery you refer to is in Chapter 10. The harvest of the earth is later down the timeline in Chapter 14.
You seem to contradict yourself.

And then you also link Chapter 20 into this same period as well.

I disagree because it's very much a timeline. Stuff happens, "THEN"- you find this word continually in Revelation.
 

Vincent

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The mystery you refer to is in Chapter 10. The harvest of the earth is later down the timeline in Chapter 14.
You seem to contradict yourself.

And then you also link Chapter 20 into this same period as well.

I disagree because it's very much a timeline. Stuff happens, "THEN"- you find this word continually in Revelation.

The mystery is referred to in chapter 10. It does not actually get accomplished until chapter 14 (harvest of the earth). Chapter 20 is a very condensed parallelism for chapters 9 to 19.

Tell me how I am contradicting myself?
 

TexUs

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The mystery is referred to in chapter 10. It does not actually get accomplished until chapter 14 (harvest of the earth). Chapter 20 is a very condensed parallelism for chapters 9 to 19.

Tell me how I am contradicting myself?

OK, I can agree with the 10/14.

I still disagree on 20.
"THEN I saw".... He begins with this after each topic in the chapter.

You can trace "then", "after this", every idea in Revelation from Chapter 20 all the way back to 14. It's a timeline.
This happens, THEN this. THEN this. THEN this.

I'm sorry I just can't buy your Chapter 20 being the same thing as in Chapter 14 because you'd have to explain how, in every idea and event from Chapter 14, it isn't a progression of time.
 

Rach1370

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You would have to give me your definition of 'demon'. I doubt it that it coincides with my definition. I cannot fully answer your questions until I know what you mean by 'demon'.

Well, Satan was an Angel of God before rebelling...and those that rebelled with him were also angels. Of course we don't call them that anymore...so as not to confuse them with Angels that are still true and faithful to God. So I suppose my definition of 'demon' is 'spiritual being that no longer worships God, but themselves'.

Notwithstanding a lack of understanding of terminology, I will attempt to answer by saying 'NO' to your questions. To clarify, Christians are the target audience for deception when Satan is released onto the earth. Hence, most of the 1/3 of souls that fell with Satan in the first age are the so-called Christians of today. God wants to know who, out ot the 1/3 that fell in the first age, earn a trip to the Lake of Fire in this flesh dispensation of time. The 1/3 that fell would not be the non-christians; however, some are for sure. Satan's chieftans in the first age would likely be the Kenites in this age.

I'm sorry....I just can't work out what you're trying to say here. Perhaps it that difference in terminology!
I was with you when you said that Christians are the 'target audience' for deception. But after that it seems to me that you go on to say that Christians ARE those that fell with Satan, rather than being those that Satan tries to deceive, manipulate and basically just kill.
Can you maybe clarify a bit?
 

Vincent

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OK, I can agree with the 10/14.

I still disagree on 20.
"THEN I saw".... He begins with this after each topic in the chapter.

You can trace "then", "after this", every idea in Revelation from Chapter 20 all the way back to 14. It's a timeline.
This happens, THEN this. THEN this. THEN this.

I'm sorry I just can't buy your Chapter 20 being the same thing as in Chapter 14 because you'd have to explain how, in every idea and event from Chapter 14, it isn't a progression of time.

Chapter 20 doesn't begin with "Then I saw". It begins with "And I saw". So that does not sound like a continuation to me. He starts by saying "And I saw an angel with a key", because he hadn't told us that part before.
 

TexUs

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Chapter 20 doesn't begin with "Then I saw". It begins with "And I saw". So that does not sound like a continuation to me. He starts by saying "And I saw an angel with a key", because he hadn't told us that part before.
Use a better translation than the NIV or KJV, all the more literal translations (ESV, NASB) use "then".

But this is found in every chapter from 14-20. 19:1, "After this", a differently worded example.


Even ONE "After" statement between 14 and 20- eliminates what you're trying to suggest. You'd have to explain how "after" really doesn't mean "after" and places this not on a timeline.
 

242006

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Well, Satan was an Angel of God before rebelling...and those that rebelled with him were also angels. Of course we don't call them that anymore...so as not to confuse them with Angels that are still true and faithful to God. So I suppose my definition of 'demon' is 'spiritual being that no longer worships God, but themselves'.

As I thought, different definitions. Hopefully, this post will clarify the matter for you. Without documenting, I will give you the main points as follow:

1. We have two bodies each here in the flesh -- a flesh body and a spiritual body within.
2. Our spirits are the angels of the first age.
3. In the first age, 1/3 of all souls/angels rebelled with Satan.
4. Those same souls, in this age, are born innocent of knowledge and doings in the first age -- just like the other 2/3 from the first age, excluding the fallen angels.
5. Since they are born innocent in this age, they are not 'demons'.
6. Demons are merely evil spirits of this age.

I'm sorry....I just can't work out what you're trying to say here. Perhaps it that difference in terminology!
I was with you when you said that Christians are the 'target audience' for deception. But after that it seems to me that you go on to say that Christians ARE those that fell with Satan, rather than being those that Satan tries to deceive, manipulate and basically just kill.
Can you maybe clarify a bit?

Sure, I can clarify. You have to take into consideration that which took place in the first age to understand what is going on in this age. All had full knowledge of Jesus in the first age as well of the fact that Satan rebelled. Yet, Satan, through deceit or other means, was able to get 1/3 of all the first-age souls to side with him. Hence, upon God's overthrow of Satan's first-age rebellion, God, instead of destroying Satan and the 1/3 there and then, decided to destroy the first age and create a new age, free of knowledge of the first age, to test primarily those 1/3 [all souls get an opportunity] to see if they will choose to follow Satan again or remain true to Jesus. [Note, we see this at play in the Garden of Eden where the woman, having both Jesus and Satan in the Garden along with Adam, allowed herself to be deceived by Satan.]

Accordingly, in order to test those first-age 1/3 in this age, they have to be in a place where they know both Christ and Satan to see which they follow at the endtime. Certainly, non Christians would not qualify for this testing as they have never rec'd Christ to begin with. Hence, the first-age 1/3 are Christians [the free will class of Christians] at this end time. The other religions get tested at the end of the Lord's Day.

If there were no 1/3 to be tested in the flesh or at the end of the flesh dispensation of time, God would not have bothered with the flesh creation at all and could have proceeded all to the Lord's Day and test everyone at the end of that millennium.
 

Vincent

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As I thought, different definitions. Hopefully, this post will clarify the matter for you. Without documenting, I will give you the main points as follow:

1. We have two bodies each here in the flesh -- a flesh body and a spiritual body within.
2. Our spirits are the angels of the first age.
3. In the first age, 1/3 of all souls/angels rebelled with Satan.
4. Those same souls, in this age, are born innocent of knowledge and doings in the first age -- just like the other 2/3 from the first age, excluding the fallen angels.
5. Since they are born innocent in this age, they are not 'demons'.
6. Demons are merely evil spirits of this age.


where. do you get this stuff?

 
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242006

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where. do you get this stuff?

1. You can read about the two bodies as best detailed by Paul in 1 Cor. 15.
2. See Gen. 1:26, 2:7, Ecc. 12:7 for starters..
3. Rev. 12:4, Eze. 28:16-18
4. 2 Pet. 3:7, Acts 3:17-26
 

Rach1370

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1. You can read about the two bodies as best detailed by Paul in 1 Cor. 15.
2. See Gen. 1:26, 2:7, Ecc. 12:7 for starters..
3. Rev. 12:4, Eze. 28:16-18
4. 2 Pet. 3:7, Acts 3:17-26

I can agree that everyone has both physical bodies with a spiritual nature as well, but I'm afraid the rest sounds a little like science fiction!
Truly, the Bible doesn't teach this. In fact I've heard some pretty out there ideas about scripture, but this is probably the weirdest. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, I just have no idea how to respond.
 

242006

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I can agree that everyone has both physical bodies with a spiritual nature as well, but I'm afraid the rest sounds a little like science fiction!

That's because you are not familiar with Bible basics.

Truly, the Bible doesn't teach this.

How would you know?? [rhetorically asked]

For the three ages, see 2 Pet. 3.

In fact I've heard some pretty out there ideas about scripture, but this is probably the weirdest. I'm sorry, I don't mean to be rude, I just have no idea how to respond.

Try learning the Word of God!

Do you think that Satan was created evil? If so, then God would have to have evil in Him in order to create something with evil within. If not, then Satan had to become evil of his own free will.

Since you obviously do not believe in the Word of God regarding the 3 ages, then, according to your thinking, Satan would have fallen sometime in this age. When?? In reading Gen. 2 and 3, Satan is already fallen. Please document when Satan fell before Adam was formed?

When the truth is exposed, you don't have a clue in explaining it.
 

Rach1370

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Why is it Watchman, that you find it so very easy to insult and be rude...must be your 'Christian nature' coming though. Well, I've tried to remind you of your better nature (if you have one) before, only to be abused more; and as I seem to remember tact not working...here it is, straight out.

That's because you are not familiar with Bible basics.

Says you. Actually, I know my bible quite well, thankyou, and despite you being a spitefully small man, that won't change.

How would you know?? [rhetorically asked]

Well, I know by picking up this wonderful book and reading it....it's called the bible, and while it tells us amazing things, it's still all based upon real life....something I wonder if you still engage in.

For the three ages, see 2 Pet. 3.

Your reading of 2 Peter 3 is faulty. Here Peter turns his attention to explaining the Lord's promised return, and specifically to an apparent debate concerning the timing of the return. He reminds them to remain vigilant in the face of scoffers, pointing out that the Prophets had long ago predicted Christs second coming.
These scoffers try the 'everything has always been the same, always will', tack. But they deliberately overlook (consciously, willfully ignore) the fact that God did intervene when he created the heavens and the earth with the word of his mouth, and also when he judged the earth with water and it perhished. God in fact intervenes in his creation whenever he desires, as is evidenced numerous times in both the OT and NT. Peter cites two obvious occasions of God's intervention, namely, when God acted at creation to form the earth (out of water and through waterhttp://www.esvonline.org/Genesis+1.6-10), and also when he acted decisively in history, destroying the earth by means of the flood in the days of Noah. And of course Peter then tells them that the world is headed for fire and judgement, and finished up by revealing that the second coming should be a motivation to live a holy life.

No where in there is anything to support your theory. You could perhaps 'read into it', and place meanings upon it that simply don't belong...but the fact is, that is ONLY what you can do. You have nothing else to stand on....just twisting and supposition.

Try learning the Word of God!

Right back at you. You sling around accusations that anyone who disagrees with you is going to burn in hell. It goes both ways of course, but everyone else is just nicer about it....this is a Christian board after all.

Do you think that Satan was created evil? If so, then God would have to have evil in Him in order to create something with evil within. If not, then Satan had to become evil of his own free will.

Since you obviously do not believe in the Word of God regarding the 3 ages, then, according to your thinking, Satan would have fallen sometime in this age. When?? In reading Gen. 2 and 3, Satan is already fallen. Please document when Satan fell before Adam was formed?

When the truth is exposed, you don't have a clue in explaining it.

To answer you first. Satan was a wonderous angel before he fell...God does NOT create evil or has evil within Him.
I believe in Gods word, I just happen to know that your hypothosis of the "three ages" is subjective. Let me explain:

I do believe that Satan fell before Adam was created, and if you want to slap a label on that fine, but I reject your "Gap" theory. Not that I object to someone thinking that perhaps the world is older than just the creation story, but I reject your speculation that Satan inhabited the world for this time. No where in the Bible does it even hint at this, let alone state it outright....once again you're back to twisting text and pure conjecture...something that can't be backed either biblically or scientifically.

And quite apart from your "three ages", the real lunacy as I see it, is your (again conjecture) idea that when God smacked satan back in that 'first age', He decided to give the fallen a 'clean slate'...just wipe their memories and start over. How did you say it?

Yet, Satan, through deceit or other means, was able to get 1/3 of all the first-age souls to side with him. Hence, upon God's overthrow of Satan's first-age rebellion, God, instead of destroying Satan and the 1/3 there and then, decided to destroy the first age and create a new age, free of knowledge of the first age, to test primarily those 1/3 [all souls get an opportunity] to see if they will choose to follow Satan again or remain true to Jesus.

Ridiculous and completely and TOTALY unbiblical and unprovable. I would very much like to see you try....you'll just look foolish.
 

242006

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Why is it Watchman, that you find it so very easy to insult and be rude...must be your 'Christian nature' coming though. Well, I've tried to remind you of your better nature (if you have one) before, only to be abused more; and as I seem to remember tact not working...here it is, straight out.

Actually, you are the rude one! Go look at your previous post(s). You pretend to be seeking knowledge; but, in reality, you are not interested in learning at all. Instead, you take advantage of the topic to issue your [feckless] commentary.

You would be less disingenuous if you just remained silent.

Says you. Actually, I know my bible quite well, thankyou, and despite you being a spitefully small man, that won't change.

It's obvious that you don't know Bible basics. This website has included a subforum for the three ages. I suggest you go learn Bible basics by going there for an education.

Well, I know by picking up this wonderful book and reading it....it's called the bible, and while it tells us amazing things, it's still all based upon real life....something I wonder if you still engage in.

"Rhetorically asked" means 'no reply' requested.

Your reading of 2 Peter 3 is faulty. Here Peter turns his attention to explaining the Lord's promised return, and specifically to an apparent debate concerning the timing of the return. He reminds them to remain vigilant in the face of scoffers, pointing out that the Prophets had long ago predicted Christs second coming.
These scoffers try the 'everything has always been the same, always will', tack. But they deliberately overlook (consciously, willfully ignore) the fact that God did intervene when he created the heavens and the earth with the word of his mouth, and also when he judged the earth with water and it perhished. God in fact intervenes in his creation whenever he desires, as is evidenced numerous times in both the OT and NT. Peter cites two obvious occasions of God's intervention, namely, when God acted at creation to form the earth (out of water and through water), and also when he acted decisively in history, destroying the earth by means of the flood in the days of Noah. And of course Peter then tells them that the world is headed for fire and judgement, and finished up by revealing that the second coming should be a motivation to live a holy life.

No where in there is anything to support your theory. You could perhaps 'read into it', and place meanings upon it that simply don't belong...but the fact is, that is ONLY what you can do. You have nothing else to stand on....just twisting and supposition.

That's why I wrote that you are not familiar with Bible basics. You simply are unlearned.

Assuming arguendo that your lame interpretation is correct, if the previous age took place from the time of Adam to Noah, the earth would only by 6,000 years old [Adam dates back a bit over 6,000 years]. How stupid is that [rhetorically asked] ?? Then, how is it that God destroyed that age [Noah's flood] if all plants, animals, and races of people survived it [rhetorically asked]??

Right back at you. You sling around accusations that anyone who disagrees with you is going to burn in hell. It goes both ways of course, but everyone else is just nicer about it....this is a Christian board after all.

You are a liar! How does a simple statement "Try learning the Word of God" get bastardized in your brain to mean "going to burn in hell" [rhetorically asked]??

To answer you first. Satan was a wonderous angel before he fell...God does NOT create evil or has evil within Him.
I believe in Gods word, I just happen to know that your hypothosis of the "three ages" is subjective. Let me explain:

I do believe that Satan fell before Adam was created, and if you want to slap a label on that fine, but I reject your "Gap" theory. Not that I object to someone thinking that perhaps the world is older than just the creation story, but I reject your speculation that Satan inhabited the world for this time. No where in the Bible does it even hint at this, let alone state it outright....once again you're back to twisting text and pure conjecture...something that can't be backed either biblically or scientifically.

And quite apart from your "three ages", the real lunacy as I see it, is your (again conjecture) idea that when God smacked satan back in that 'first age', He decided to give the fallen a 'clean slate'...just wipe their memories and start over. How did you say it?

Thank you for showing the viewers your complete ignorance regarding this topic. As I previously wrote, "When the truth is exposed, you don't have a clue in explaining it."

Ridiculous and completely and TOTALY unbiblical and unprovable. I would very much like to see you try....you'll just look foolish.

Some people love going through life in fear of the Truth. Instead of objectively evaluating an issue to determine whether the indoctrination [brainwashing] received in one's church is true or not, those, like you, prefer to do the ostrich [stick heads in the sand] to avoid Truth. Instead, any attempt to edify those like you is met with the vitriolic [feckless] commentary one sees in your posts.

Why bother proving it to you [rhetorically asked]?? I have already proven you in error a few times already at this website and you have yet to acknowledge your error or to thank me once. Besides, there is relevant information in the three ages subforum. -- READ IT!!
 

Vincent

New Member
Sep 6, 2010
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Edmonton, Alberta
Watchman, I think all this animosity can be avoided if you can prove with scripture your claims, because obviously your claims are hard to believe. And simply pointing us to 2 Peter is obviously not going to do it because we don't see what you see. You're going to have to be a lot more convincing.
 
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