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David H.

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presbyter equals priest

Correct. that is the word for Elder in the Greek. We have one High priest, Christ Jesus, all of us become a royal priesthood by the Sanctification of the Holy Ghost. We all have the authority to expose the corruption in the church and hold one another accountable as brethren, and to reform what has fallen into corruption, as Paul encouraged the Corinthian church to do which had a leader who Married his Mother, Or what was instructed By Paul to Timothy regarding Elders: Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. (1 Timothy 5:19-20)

The facts are, the Catholic church has big problems in their leadership, and there is no one holding them to account because of Nicolaitan doctrines that make their leaders an elite and un-reformable class of leader, that can literally get away with murder, anathematizing all those who dare speak up against them, calling them a heretic, and excommunicating any who dare speak up against them. Until this Problem is addressed, the Catholic church is not the one true church the Apostles founded but rather a den of wolves in sheep's clothing. Do You understand this? Many Catholics freely admit this, as i said before, it is Catholics themselves that are saying this Pope is the antipope, and that his doctrines are leading the church to its final demise to receive the antichrist and the mark of the beast. This is not just a fundamentalist and protestant attack on your church, but one that is coming from the Elders of your church who are seeing the Hypocrisy rising in the Doctrines, and the corruption of the priesthood not being held to account. What you are witnessing here, now from myself and others is a rebuke of the doctrine that has led to these fruit in the Catholic church. I would rather see you all reform the church than see it run to the ground of corruption as it is quickly heading, and what I am showing you backed by ample scriptural proof is the solution to the problem if you will hear it. I cannot reform your church, it is People like you who are Members of your church that can reform it, who see the problem and hold the leaders to account and make an example of them, but first you need to knock down the Nicolaitan doctrine that has led to this unaccountable priestly class, a Burden no man can bear. (Matthew 23:3-7)

The question is does the Laity of the church have the will and strength to do this, or perhaps the better solution is found in Revelation 18:4-8...

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow. Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her.

Read the eight parts of this link, it is an interventionist website for People who are in cults, but it applies to churches as well where the leadership becomes corrupt. It will explain alot of why these problems exist in the Catholic church.
Mind-Field: Eight Ways to Identify Religious Brainwashing (Part 1 of 8) | Liberty for Captives

None of what I have said here is to malign Your church, Or you or anyone else here. I Know these are hard words for you all to hear, But I praise God for a Forum like this that allows them to be spoken, and heard. This is not nor ever has been about anticatholic bashing, but anti nicolaitan doctrines which have infiltrated the catholic leadership. It is the laity that has the ability to correct this knowing they are called to do so by Christ Jesus himself who has made them a Royal priesthood, not a subservient class to the priestly class. All are called to mature to be elders, and presbyters and priests and hold one another to account as Brethren. ....But Speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: (Ephesians 4:15)

God bless.
 

BreadOfLife

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Yup, It was you, see comment #668, just pointing out your own hypocrisy.
I don't know what your problem is - but post #668 was posted by @Marymog - NOT me.
Now - can we get back to the topic of discussion??
It is obvious that you do not understand the Words of Christ regarding the Spirit of Truth. John 16:13-15, He continues to reveal these things to the church as time goes by, John 21:25. To say the whole truth is contained in the world in one church is just a fallacy that limits God to the box of Human understanding. Philippians 1:9-11

Some indeed preach Christ even from envy and strife, and some also from goodwill: The former[fn] preach Christ from selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my chains; but the latter out of love, knowing that I am appointed for the defense of the gospel. What then? Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is preached; and in this I rejoice, yes, and will rejoice. (Philippians 1:15-18, NKJV)

Did You catch that? You see, so long as Christ is being preached, then So be it, But leadership done out of selfish ambition is what leads to envy and strife, not the effort to reform that Nicolaitan Spirit in the leadership.
To say that Jesus built more than ONE Church is a fallacy.

To say that you can reject His ONE Church, which is his very Body (Col 1:18, Acts 9:4-5) and the FULLNESS of who He is (Eph. 1:22-23) - and still be saved - is also a fallacy of BIBLICAL proportions.

At this point, nothing I can show you from the Word of God is going to enlighten you without the Holy Spirit's intervention because you have hardened your heart to Him (Rom. 2:5) and leaned on your own understanding (Prov. 3:5) instead of trusting in HIM.
Good luck with that . . .
 

theefaith

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Jesus is high priest According to the order of melchezadek so there must be low priests of the same ministering order
 

David H.

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To say that Jesus built more than ONE Church is a fallacy.

I am saying there is one true church but it is not contained in one human institution, the RCC or any other denomination. You are promoting a religion of men, not the one true church. This is the Lie the Nicolaitans have placed in your doctrines that keep the leadership unaccountable and laity living in fear of speaking up against them. (Read my last comment to @theefaith) Take the time to read 1 Corinthians 5 and the response of this church to the incident in 2 Corinthians 7:8-16

Forgive my error re: the Grammarly comment, I got you two mixed up.
 

David H.

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Jesus is high priest According to the order of melchezadek so there must be low priests of the same ministering order
That is correct, all the elders are "low priests". In the true church there is never a shortage of elders and priests, as they are continually growing into maturity, and stepping into those roles. The fact that the RCC has this shortage is an indication there is a Problem there. At the very least you should be able to agree with that.
 

BreadOfLife

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I never said that one can not fall away and become an unbeliever. I said that the only sin that is damnable is unbelief.
Refute what? You have to prove something for there to be anything to refute. Instead, you all build a non-biblical doctrine on pieces of verses.
"Pieces" of verses? I didn't give you "pieces" of anything - I gave uyou entire passages in CONTEXT.

Let's recap:
- As I showed you before - Jesus warns us in Matt. 5:22-29 that there are other sins that will lead us to hell - if we don’t repent of them.
- He also taught that some sins will be forgiven AFTER death (Matt. 12:32).
- Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.
- This is why I showed you that John also differentiates between sins that can cause DEATH (mortal) – and sins that don’t (venial) in 1 John 5:16-17.


These aren't "pieces" of verses.
This is substantial Scriptural proof that YOU are rejecting . . .
 

David H.

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At this point, nothing I can show you from the Word of God is going to enlighten you without the Holy Spirit's intervention because you have hardened your heart to Him (Rom. 2:5) and leaned on your own understanding (Prov. 3:5) instead of trusting in HIM.
Good luck with that . . .

More Nicolaitan judgment and castigating from you, You do not even see this in your comments, do you? The Holy Spirit is my teacher, and Christ Jesus is my all in all. I Have not once accused Catholics here of not being believers, but referred to them as brothers in Christ. Your relationship with Christ is between you and him. I have said your church is corrupt in its leadership and its doctrines in the 10-20% of them we do not agree on and have used scripture to point to those errors, the prime one being Nicolaitan doctrines of the leadership. If you are an honest Catholic, you will honestly admit this is an issue, and what i am showing you is a solution to the Problem, as the holy Spirit has given me unction to speak with you about here. The Question is will you hear what the Spirit is saying?
 

BreadOfLife

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I am saying there is one true church but it is not contained in one human institution, the RCC or any other denomination. You are promoting a religion of men, not the one true church. This is the Lie the Nicolaitans have placed in your doctrines that keep the leadership unaccountable and laity living in fear of speaking up against them. (Read my last comment to @theefaith) Take the time to read 1 Corinthians 5 and the response of this church to the incident in 2 Corinthians 7:8-16
The Catholic Church is NOT a "human" institution. It was instituted by Jesus Christ, who is GOD - 2000 years ago.
Which part of that statement do you have difficulty with?

We have writings from the earliest of time that attest to this, such as 1st century Bishop and student of the Apostle John, Ignatius of Sntioch, who attests to the Catholic Church:
Ignatius of Antioch

Follow your bishop, every one of you, as obediently as Jesus Christ followed the Father. Obey your clergy too as you would the apostles; give your deacons the same reverence that you would to a command of God. Make sure that no step affecting the Church is ever taken by anyone without the bishop’s sanction. The sole Eucharist you should consider valid is one that is celebrated by the bishop himself, or by some person authorized by him. Where the bishop is to be seen, there let all his people be; just as, wherever Jesus Christ is present, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

All YOU have is denial after denial and rejection after rejection.
There is NO expiration date on Matt. 16:18-19, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, OR John 20:21-23 . . .
 

theefaith

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That is correct, all the elders are "low priests". In the true church there is never a shortage of elders and priests, as they are continually growing into maturity, and stepping into those roles. The fact that the RCC has this shortage is an indication there is a Problem there. At the very least you should be able to agree with that.

what sacrifice are they offering?
 

theefaith

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That is correct, all the elders are "low priests". In the true church there is never a shortage of elders and priests, as they are continually growing into maturity, and stepping into those roles. The fact that the RCC has this shortage is an indication there is a Problem there. At the very least you should be able to agree with that.

I might add what sacrifice, what altar, with the golden senser of incense
 

BreadOfLife

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More Nicolaitan judgment and castigating from you, You do not even see this in your comments, do you? The Holy Spirit is my teacher, and Christ Jesus is my all in all. I Have not once accused Catholics here of not being believers, but referred to them as brothers in Christ. Your relationship with Christ is between you and him. I have said your church is corrupt in its leadership and its doctrines in the 10-20% of them we do not agree on and have used scripture to point to those errors, the prime one being Nicolaitan doctrines of the leadership. If you are an honest Catholic, you will honestly admit this is an issue, and what i am showing you is a solution to the Problem, as the holy Spirit has given me unction to speak with you about here. The Question is will you hear what the Spirit is saying?
The CHURCH is your teacher.
That's what Christ Himself commissioned the first leaders of the Church to do:
Matt. 28:19-20
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THAT I COMMANDED YOU. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

There are literally, tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects out there that ALL teach different doctrines based on how each individual leader was "taught" by the Holy Spirit.

This perpetual splintering is the tragedy of Protestant rebellion and the exact OPPOSITE of the Unity of the Body that Jesus so fervently prayed for at the Last supper (John 17).
 

theefaith

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The CHURCH is your teacher.
That's what Christ Himself commissioned the first leaders of the Church to do:
Matt. 28:19-20
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THAT I COMMANDED YOU. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

There are literally, tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects out there that ALL teach different doctrines based on how each individual leader was "taught" by the Holy Spirit.

This perpetual splintering is the tragedy of Protestant rebellion and the exact OPPOSITE of the Unity of the Body that Jesus so fervently prayed for at the Last supper (John 17).


HS leads the apostles (the church) into all truth then they teach us

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come

so the church is

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.
 

David H.

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I might add what sacrifice, what altar, with the golden senser of incense

Good Question.
We are the temple, We are the Alter, and the ark of the covenant upon which the Blood of Christ is sprinkled upon.... Now you are getting into the meat of the Word of God. (2 Corinthians 6:16, Hebrews 9)
 

David H.

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what sacrifice are they offering?
Another good question, again, the meat of the Word of God.

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. (Romans 12:1-2)
 

David H.

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The CHURCH is your teacher.
That's what Christ Himself commissioned the first leaders of the Church to do:

Yes, the elders of the church are called to be teachers, and to feed the flock, but they are not a Special class of people but brethren. You love toquote the passage in 1 John 2 about them being among us, well this follows that....

But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. (1 John 2:20)
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27)

From Thayer's Lexicon re: the word Unction and anointing in the above two verses:
STRONGS NT 5545: χρῖσμα
χρῖσμα (so R G L, small edition, WH) and χρῖσμα (Lachmann's major edition; T Tr; on the accent see Winers Grammar, § 6, 1e.; Lipsius, Grammat. Untersuch., p. 35; (Tdf. Proleg., p. 102)), χρίσματος, τό (χρίω, which see), anything smeared on, unguent, ointment, usually prepared by the Hebrews from oil and aromatic herbs. Anointing was the inaugural ceremony for priests (Exodus 28:37; Exodus 40:13 (15); Leviticus 6:22; Numbers 35:25), kings (1 Samuel 9:16; 1 Samuel 10:1; 1 Samuel 15:1; 1 Samuel 16:3, 13), and sometimes also prophets (1 Kings 19:16 cf. Isaiah 61:1), and by it they were regarded as endued with the Holy Spirit and divine gifts (1 Samuel 16:13; Isaiah 61:1; Josephus, Antiquities 6, 8, 2 πρός τόν Δαυιδην — when anointed by Samuel — μεταβαινει τό θεῖον καταλιπον Σαουλον. καί ὁ μέν προφητεύειν ἤρξατο, τοῦ θείου πνεύματος εἰς αὐτόν μετοικισαμενου); (see BB. DD., see under the words, Ointment, Anointing). Hence, in 1 John 2:20 (where ἀπό τοῦ ἁγίου is so used as to imply that this χρῖσμα renders them ἁγίους (cf. Westcott at the passage)) and 27, τό χρῖσμα is used of the gift of the Holy Spirit, as the efficient aid in getting a knowledge of the truth; see χιω. (Xenophon, Theophrastus, Diodorus, Philo, others; for מִשְׁחָה, Exodus 29:7; Exodus 30:25; Exodus 35:14; Exodus 40:7 (9).)

I john is addressed to all Believers. Not just a priestly class. He speaks explicitly to children of the faith growing into young men and fathers/elders. We all are given the Holy Ghost and the anointing which teaches and sanctifies us in the Truth (See John 17:20-21 again.) To be taught by the Holy Ghost and to learn how to hear what the Spirit is saying to the church is the mark of an Elder in Christ Jesus, their anointing as priests.
 

David H.

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HS leads the apostles (the church) into all truth then they teach us

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come

so the church is

1 Timothy 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

The Apostles themselves had a special calling, they were eyewitnesses of the Glory of Christ, a living testimony of the truth. We who believe gain this confirmation and assurance from the Holy Ghost who reveals all things to us.... That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, (Ephesians 1:17-18)

As Eyewitnesses of the Glory of Christ Jesus the Apostles were given the unction and inspiration to write the scripture and lay the foundation for the church, it is we who build upon that foundation. We are the temple. God continues to reveal the truth to us through the Holy Spirit, we are continually receiving this revelation and the body continues to grow. Jesus is the truth, and the more he reveals himself to us, the more we know Him, and are known by Him.

As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. ( I Peter 2:2-3)

But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: (Ephesians 4:15)

But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen. (2 Peter 3:18)
 

Illuminator

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Catholics are instructed to regard all baptized in Christ as Christians.
It puzzles many converts when they discover they don't need re-baptism.
 
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Renniks

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"Pieces" of verses? I didn't give you "pieces" of anything - I gave uyou entire passages in CONTEXT.

Let's recap:
- As I showed you before - Jesus warns us in Matt. 5:22-29 that there are other sins that will lead us to hell - if we don’t repent of them.
- He also taught that some sins will be forgiven AFTER death (Matt. 12:32).
- Matt. 18:32-35 And Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.
- This is why I showed you that John also differentiates between sins that can cause DEATH (mortal) – and sins that don’t (venial) in 1 John 5:16-17.


These aren't "pieces" of verses.
This is substantial Scriptural proof that YOU are rejecting . . .
So, is it your belief that lust is an unforgivable sin? Or calling a brother a fool? Or unforgiveness? You are missing the point.
Yes, if you get angry at someone without a cause, it is the same as murder; if you lust after another man's wife, it's the same as if you slept with her. These are standards that are impossible to keep. And that is Jesus' point; it is simply futile to try to make ourselves "good enough" for God. Yet you are sayin the opposite, that we can earn points and avoid hell by avoiding actually doing murder, even if we harbor hate. So rather than Matthew 5:20 for example, saying we need to vigorously "work" to be righteous like the scribes and Pharisees did, the passage in its historical and literary context is showing us the futility of a works based righteousness.
 

theefaith

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Yes, the elders of the church are called to be teachers, and to feed the flock, but they are not a Special class of people but brethren. You love toquote the passage in 1 John 2 about them being among us, well this follows that....

But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. (1 John 2:20)
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27)

From Thayer's Lexicon re: the word Unction and anointing in the above two verses:
STRONGS NT 5545: χρῖσμα
χρῖσμα (so R G L, small edition, WH) and χρῖσμα (Lachmann's major edition; T Tr; on the accent see Winers Grammar, § 6, 1e.; Lipsius, Grammat. Untersuch., p. 35; (Tdf. Proleg., p. 102)), χρίσματος, τό (χρίω, which see), anything smeared on, unguent, ointment, usually prepared by the Hebrews from oil and aromatic herbs. Anointing was the inaugural ceremony for priests (Exodus 28:37; Exodus 40:13 (15); Leviticus 6:22; Numbers 35:25), kings (1 Samuel 9:16; 1 Samuel 10:1; 1 Samuel 15:1; 1 Samuel 16:3, 13), and sometimes also prophets (1 Kings 19:16 cf. Isaiah 61:1), and by it they were regarded as endued with the Holy Spirit and divine gifts (1 Samuel 16:13; Isaiah 61:1; Josephus, Antiquities 6, 8, 2 πρός τόν Δαυιδην — when anointed by Samuel — μεταβαινει τό θεῖον καταλιπον Σαουλον. καί ὁ μέν προφητεύειν ἤρξατο, τοῦ θείου πνεύματος εἰς αὐτόν μετοικισαμενου); (see BB. DD., see under the words, Ointment, Anointing). Hence, in 1 John 2:20 (where ἀπό τοῦ ἁγίου is so used as to imply that this χρῖσμα renders them ἁγίους (cf. Westcott at the passage)) and 27, τό χρῖσμα is used of the gift of the Holy Spirit, as the efficient aid in getting a knowledge of the truth; see χιω. (Xenophon, Theophrastus, Diodorus, Philo, others; for מִשְׁחָה, Exodus 29:7; Exodus 30:25; Exodus 35:14; Exodus 40:7 (9).)

I john is addressed to all Believers. Not just a priestly class. He speaks explicitly to children of the faith growing into young men and fathers/elders. We all are given the Holy Ghost and the anointing which teaches and sanctifies us in the Truth (See John 17:20-21 again.) To be taught by the Holy Ghost and to learn how to hear what the Spirit is saying to the church is the mark of an Elder in Christ Jesus, their anointing as priests.

Jn 20:21-22 is not