Who founded your church?

theefaith said:

Jn 20:21-22 is not

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Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: (John 20:21-22)

Incorrect, as I have said to you before, Jesus extended this calling to all believers in His Prayer in John 17:20-21. Read verses preceding this. The apostles, were first to receive the Holy Ghost all who are born again receive the Holy Ghost. The Only thing that distinguished the apostles is that they were eyewitnesses of the Glory of Christ (2 Peter 1:16). Having this eyewitness testimony they had the inspiration to author the Word of God and hence we have the canon of scripture. Once John the Apostle died, no more scripture was written.

David H. said:

Yes, the elders of the church are called to be teachers, and to feed the flock, but they are not a Special class of people but brethren. You love toquote the passage in 1 John 2 about them being among us, well this follows that....

But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things. (1 John 2:20)
But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1 John 2:27)

From Thayer's Lexicon re: the word Unction and anointing in the above two verses:
STRONGS NT 5545: χρῖσμα
χρῖσμα (so R G L, small edition, WH) and χρῖσμα (Lachmann's major edition; T Tr; on the accent see Winers Grammar, § 6, 1e.; Lipsius, Grammat. Untersuch., p. 35; (Tdf. Proleg., p. 102)), χρίσματος, τό (χρίω, which see), anything smeared on, unguent, ointment, usually prepared by the Hebrews from oil and aromatic herbs. Anointing was the inaugural ceremony for priests (Exodus 28:37; Exodus 40:13 (15); Leviticus 6:22; Numbers 35:25), kings (1 Samuel 9:16; 1 Samuel 10:1; 1 Samuel 15:1; 1 Samuel 16:3, 13), and sometimes also prophets (1 Kings 19:16 cf. Isaiah 61:1), and by it they were regarded as endued with the Holy Spirit and divine gifts (1 Samuel 16:13; Isaiah 61:1; Josephus, Antiquities 6, 8, 2 πρός τόν Δαυιδην — when anointed by Samuel — μεταβαινει τό θεῖον καταλιπον Σαουλον. καί ὁ μέν προφητεύειν ἤρξατο, τοῦ θείου πνεύματος εἰς αὐτόν μετοικισαμενου); (see BB. DD., see under the words, Ointment, Anointing). Hence, in 1 John 2:20 (where ἀπό τοῦ ἁγίου is so used as to imply that this χρῖσμα renders them ἁγίους (cf. Westcott at the passage)) and 27, τό χρῖσμα is used of the gift of the Holy Spirit, as the efficient aid in getting a knowledge of the truth; see χιω. (Xenophon, Theophrastus, Diodorus, Philo, others; for מִשְׁחָה, Exodus 29:7; Exodus 30:25; Exodus 35:14; Exodus 40:7 (9).)

I john is addressed to all Believers. Not just a priestly class. He speaks explicitly to children of the faith growing into young men and fathers/elders. We all are given the Holy Ghost and the anointing which teaches and sanctifies us in the Truth (See John 17:20-21 again.) To be taught by the Holy Ghost and to learn how to hear what the Spirit is saying to the church is the mark of an Elder in Christ Jesus, their anointing as priests.

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Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
Some believe that most were predestined for hell, while others do not.
Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
Most of you believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on.

So tell me - WHO was taught correctly by the Holy Spirit on these matters - and who wasn't?

Renniks said:

So, is it your belief that lust is an unforgivable sin? Or calling a brother a fool? Or unforgiveness? You are missing the point.
Yes, if you get angry at someone without a cause, it is the same as murder; if you lust after another man's wife, it's the same as if you slept with her. These are standards that are impossible to keep. And that is Jesus' point; it is simply futile to try to make ourselves "good enough" for God. Yet you are sayin the opposite, that we can earn points and avoid hell by avoiding actually doing murder, even if we harbor hate. So rather than Matthew 5:20 for example, saying we need to vigorously "work" to be righteous like the scribes and Pharisees did, the passage in its historical and literary context is showing us the futility of a works based righteousness.

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And there you go AGAIN arguing in circlces because we ALREADY coverd this.
It's NOT about "earning points" or being "good enough". We'll NEVER be good enough on our own.

We are saved by God's grace.
We must cooperate (sunergos/1 Cor. 3:9, 2 Cor. 6:1) with that grace in order for it to have an effect on us.
THIS is why the Biblespeaks as if we are STILL BEING saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).

When we have endured to the end (Matt. 24:13) in faith over our life.
This is why the Bible says that we have the HOPE that we WILL BE saved.

In your perverted, man-made Protestant theology - YOU guys convinced yourselves that salvation was a one time event - in stead of the PROCESS that Scripture describes.

"Enduring in faith" is NOT about havihg lived a perfect life. As I've already explained to you several times - it's about STRIVING to please God by loving and obeying Him. When we stumble - and we ALL do - we come to Him with contrite hearts, and NOT with the the attitude that we're "already forgiven" for our furture sins, which Scripture NEVER claims.

He gave us His CHURCH to be our final earthly authority (Matt. 16:12-15, Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:121-15, John 20:21-23).
He DIDN'T give us permission to deviate from that and splinter off because of our own private interpretations of His Sacred Word.

BreadOfLife said:

Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
Some believe that most were predestined for hell, while others do not.
Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
Most of you believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on.

So tell me - WHO was taught correctly by the Holy Spirit on these matters - and who wasn't?

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Are you claiming that the Catholic church has been consistent in its beliefs? I've read enough history to know that those beliefs have changed.

BreadOfLife said:

In your perverted, man-made Protestant theology - YOU guys convinced yourselves that salvation was a one time event - in stead of the PROCESS that Scripture describes.

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Correct, salvation is a one-time event, in that we are saved at some point in time. Sanctification is a process that ebbs and flows. You can't lose salvation, but scripture does seem to teach that you can throw it away by falling into false teachings such as denying that Jesus was the messiah.

BreadOfLife said:

Some Protestant denominations believe in baptismal regeneration, while others do not.
Some believe in soul-sleep, while others do not.
Some believe in the total depravity of man, while others do not.
Some believe in the Holy Trinity, while others do not.
Some believe in doctrine of “once saved, always saved”, while others do not.
Some believe in a pre-tribulation “Rapture”, while others do not.
Some believe that only those who were predestined will make it to heaven, while others do not.
Some believe that most were predestined for hell, while others do not.
Some believe in a woman’s right to choose abortion, while others do not.
Some believe that practicing homosexuality is a sin, while others do not.
Most of you believe in contraception, while others do not – and the list goes on.

So tell me - WHO was taught correctly by the Holy Spirit on these matters - and who wasn't?

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Agreed this is a problem but I could make a similar list for the RCC. The fact is, to quote St, Augustine,
“In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”
I Believe there is a list of things that all true Christians hold in unity, which are the essentials of the faith, and many Catholics hold to these doctrines as do many protestants and Charismatics and Orthodox. They are all my Brothers in Christ. Things like the eschatology, and future events are yet to be unsealed, or are currently being unsealed from their state as a mystery, and many have diverse opinions of them. Other divisions are there that charity and unity can be arrived at, for example conditional security vs. Eternal security, which one leads to the other when assurance of salvation is experienced by the believer which is a maturity and growth issue. Some divisions are the result of an incomplete understanding, for we all know in part. For example most Protestant do not distinguish between the faithful and the saints, which has led to the doctrine of predestination, a direct result of the reformation. So You have the controversy between Calvinism and Arminianism but both are right, we choose to receive the gift of salvation, but God chooses who are the saints. (Refer to Erasmus vs. Luther Debate on this topic).

Remember the words of Paul.... For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. (1 Corinthians 11:19) This is what I am talking about when I say the splintering in the church is a blessing for it is an opportunity to arrive at fellowship and Charity, and indeed divisions were a blessing to the apostolic church in that they correct leaders when they err, such as Paul rebuking Peter in Galatians, and Paul and Barnabas going separate ways to present the Gospel to different parts of the world. Jesus Himself, when his followers grew too large, would say things that were hard to hear to separate the wheat from the chaff, the ones who were following him to feed their bellies and their flesh versus those who were true to Him, and believed.

The fact that a church has no disagreements is not good either, as then it lacks divine revelation and growth and shows manipulation and control rather than liberty. As i have said here, the truth continues to grow in the Body, we do not contain the whole truth, Neither does any one church age contain the whole truth, but they are all given a part that they may join in the unity of the Spirit. Again, there are seven church ages, each receiving one of the Seven Spirits of God, that when they come together in unity in the end they come to the fulness of Christ. It is both humbling and peacemaking when you come to understand this Truth, which is hard for you to grasp, when you have been taught that your church is always right, But the fruit of your church should make you question this. I do not paint the protestant churches in a positive light either, I see flaws and errors in them as well, it is known as self reflection and admitting that Humans can err, But God does not make any mistakes, the errors are there according to His plan, and he knew men would fail, and introduce heresies and Nicolaitan doctrines, that the approved may be made manifest among you.

Renniks said:

It's simple. Does the meaning being drawn from the verse actually work with the context of the verse, or is someone extrapolating? For example, the verse that says there is a sin unto death, when taken in the context the verse is used in, merit creating a whole doctrine about venial sins and mortal sins?

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Thank you Renniks. You addressed the taken out of context portion of that sentence and I appreciate that. You specifically said in that sentence that Catholics take scripture out of context. I realize you don't just mean Catholics when you say that.

What you really mean is anybody that disagrees with you and your context is wrong. That is why I asked you the question that you so artfully dodged:

Can you explain to me how it is that you KNOW when someone is taking a verse out of context?

Patient Mary

Renniks said:

The Body of believers. It's not a denomination. Yes, the church building I go to has a denomination, but all believers are welcome there. The church isn't a building or a certain sect within Christianity.

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Thanks Renniks. So the Church is a "Body of believers". That is a pretty generic description of His Church and it makes sense....I can agree with you on that.

If I feel you have sinned against me Renniks and you won't acknowledge that sin when I speak to you about it so I go get @BreadOfLife and @theefaith who also try and talk to you and you refuse to listen to the three of us which "Body of believers" should you and I go to in an effort to fullill Matthew 18:17?

Curious Mary

Renniks said:

Are you claiming that the Catholic church has been consistent in its beliefs? I've read enough history to know that those beliefs have changed.

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Core truths develop, they have never changed.
C. S. Lewis, the famous Anglican writer, once wrote:


(God in the Dock, Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1970, 44-47)

The Catholic Church, in agreement with Lewis, defines doctrinal development as a growth of depth and clarity in the understanding of the truths of divine revelation. It is important to understand that the substantial or essential truths at the core of each doctrine remain unchanged. Only the subjective grasp of men increases. This increase is the result of the prayerful reflection of the Church, theological study and research (often occasioned by heretical challenges), practical experience, and the collective wisdom of the Church’s bishops and popes, especially when joined in Ecumenical Councils.
Development of Doctrine: A Corruption of Biblical Teaching? | Dave Armstrong (patheos.com)

Marymog said:

Thank you Renniks. You addressed the taken out of context portion of that sentence and I appreciate that. You specifically said in that sentence that Catholics take scripture out of context. I realize you don't just mean Catholics when you say that.

What you really mean is anybody that disagrees with you and your context is wrong. That is why I asked you the question that you so artfully dodged:

Can you explain to me how it is that you KNOW when someone is taking a verse out of context?

Patient Mary

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I'm not dodging, I'm explaining how anyone takes things out of context. And I just told you how to know. Anyone who disagrees with me? lol..sometimes I find that I disagree with me and have to change my mind.

Marymog said:

Thanks Renniks. So the Church is a "Body of believers". That is a pretty generic description of His Church and it makes sense....I can agree with you on that.

If I feel you have sinned against me Renniks and you won't acknowledge that sin when I speak to you about it so I go get @BreadOfLife and @theefaith who also try and talk to you and you refuse to listen to the three of us which "Body of believers" should you and I go to in an effort to fullill Matthew 18:17?

Curious Mary

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And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

I would suggest talking to the pastor. Or one of the pastors.

Illuminator said:

Core truths develop, they have never changed.
C. S. Lewis, the famous Anglican writer, once wrote:

The very possibility of progress demands that there should be an unchanging element . . . the positive historical statements made by Christianity have the power . . . of receiving, without intrinsic change, the increasing complexity of meaning which increasing knowledge puts into them.​

(God in the Dock, Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1970, 44-47)

The Catholic Church, in agreement with Lewis, defines doctrinal development as a growth of depth and clarity in the understanding of the truths of divine revelation. It is important to understand that the substantial or essential truths at the core of each doctrine remain unchanged. Only the subjective grasp of men increases. This increase is the result of the prayerful reflection of the Church, theological study and research (often occasioned by heretical challenges), practical experience, and the collective wisdom of the Church’s bishops and popes, especially when joined in Ecumenical Councils.
Development of Doctrine: A Corruption of Biblical Teaching? | Dave Armstrong (patheos.com)

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Well that is a convenient way to look at it...so the church was never wrong, just not evolved enough?

Renniks said:

And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

I would suggest talking to the pastor. Or one of the pastors.

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One of the pastors from your church or my church?

Renniks said:

Are you claiming that the Catholic church has been consistent in its beliefs? I've read enough history to know that those beliefs have changed.

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Tell me which Catholic doctrines have been changed.

Renniks said:

I'm not dodging, I'm explaining how anyone takes things out of context. And I just told you how to know. Anyone who disagrees with me? lol..sometimes I find that I disagree with me and have to change my mind.

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Thanks Renniks. Soooo now you have me confused. You initially stated that Catholics take verses out of context. Now you are saying (in general) anyone can take Scripture out of context, even you, and when you realize that you were wrong you change your mind.

Soooooo why do you feel comfortable telling others they are taking a passage out of context if their is a possibility that YOU are wrong and in the future you may "change your mind"? Help me out here....

Curious Mary

Renniks said:

Correct, salvation is a one-time event, in that we are saved at some point in time. Sanctification is a process that ebbs and flows. You can't lose salvation, but scripture does seem to teach that you can throw it away by falling into false teachings such as denying that Jesus was the messiah.

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Once AGAIN - that's not what the Bible says.
As I have shown you at least FOUR times now:
- We receive the inbitial grace to believe which saves us (Rom. 5:1, 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8).
- We are sanctified throughout our lifetime and are told that we are BEING saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, 7:1, Phil. 2:12, Heb 12:14).
- Because we endure in faith, we have the HOPE that we WILL BE saved (Matt. 24:13, Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15)

As to your false teachig that salvation cannot be lost - we are warned over and over agaon in Scripture not to fall back into darkness or we will LOSE our security . . .
Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and FALL FROM YOUR SECURE POSITION.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God “take away” somebody’s “share” of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

David H. said:

Agreed this is a problem but I could make a similar list for the RCC. The fact is, to quote St, Augustine,
“In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity.”
I Believe there is a list of things that all true Christians hold in unity, which are the essentials of the faith, and many Catholics hold to these doctrines as do many protestants and Charismatics and Orthodox. They are all my Brothers in Christ. Things like the eschatology, and future events are yet to be unsealed, or are currently being unsealed from their state as a mystery, and many have diverse opinions of them. Other divisions are there that charity and unity can be arrived at, for example conditional security vs. Eternal security, which one leads to the other when assurance of salvation is experienced by the believer which is a maturity and growth issue. Some divisions are the result of an incomplete understanding, for we all know in part. For example most Protestant do not distinguish between the faithful and the saints, which has led to the doctrine of predestination, a direct result of the reformation. So You have the controversy between Calvinism and Arminianism but both are right, we choose to receive the gift of salvation, but God chooses who are the saints. (Refer to Erasmus vs. Luther Debate on this topic).

Remember the words of Paul.... For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. (1 Corinthians 11:19) This is what I am talking about when I say the splintering in the church is a blessing for it is an opportunity to arrive at fellowship and Charity, and indeed divisions were a blessing to the apostolic church in that they correct leaders when they err, such as Paul rebuking Peter in Galatians, and Paul and Barnabas going separate ways to present the Gospel to different parts of the world. Jesus Himself, when his followers grew too large, would say things that were hard to hear to separate the wheat from the chaff, the ones who were following him to feed their bellies and their flesh versus those who were true to Him, and believed.

The fact that a church has no disagreements is not good either, as then it lacks divine revelation and growth and shows manipulation and control rather than liberty. As i have said here, the truth continues to grow in the Body, we do not contain the whole truth, Neither does any one church age contain the whole truth, but they are all given a part that they may join in the unity of the Spirit. Again, there are seven church ages, each receiving one of the Seven Spirits of God, that when they come together in unity in the end they come to the fulness of Christ. It is both humbling and peacemaking when you come to understand this Truth, which is hard for you to grasp, when you have been taught that your church is always right, But the fruit of your church should make you question this. I do not paint the protestant churches in a positive light either, I see flaws and errors in them as well, it is known as self reflection and admitting that Humans can err, But God does not make any mistakes, the errors are there according to His plan, and he knew men would fail, and introduce heresies and Nicolaitan doctrines, that the approved may be made manifest among you.

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First of all - you CAN'T make a similar list regarding the Catholic Church because we have unity of doctrine.
If you are going to attemp to list the beliefs of fallen away dissident groups - they are NOT part of the Catholic Church. They are in effect, Protestants.

Secondly, that quote from St. Augustine is in regards to NON-essentials, which is a reference to minor customs, traditions, disciplines, etc.
Many of the things I listed are essential beliefs regarding regeneration and salvation.

BreadOfLife said:

First of all - you CAN'T make a similar list regarding the Catholic Church because we have unity of doctrine.
If you are going to attemp to list the beliefs of fallen away dissident groups - they are NOT part of the Catholic Church. They are in effect, Protestants.

Secondly, that quote from St. Augustine is in regards to NON-essentials, which is a reference to minor customs, traditions, disciplines, etc.
Many of the things I listed are essential beliefs regarding regeneration and salvation.

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So the Coptics in Egypt are a dissident group, and the Maronites in Syria, the Chaldeans in Iraq, The liberation theologians in south America, All the various Old catholic churches in Europe, and the U.S.? You see how this close mindedness is reducing your church to a pittance now, and how little she becomes because of Nicolaitan doctrines that have infiltrated her.

Marymog said:

One of the pastors from your church or my church?

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Yep.