I Need Help With English

Zuzanna18 said:

I think if a lot of people would like to help me it would be easier.

Click to expand...

I think if a lot of people replied to your address ..... then you would have a lot of people's email addresses. If that is not the game you play , please correct me. I have been wrong about such things once or twice.

What country are you from?

Surely we could translate them here on this forum?

Zuzanna18 said:

I am from Poland. And I don't play any games. I just need help with this. But I guess no one wants to help me.

So what in your opinion should I do?

Click to expand...

Hello Zuzanna,

I'm sure that we can help you here. You ask about the viewpoints of Christianity regarding homosexuality. Most Christians are against the ACT of homosexuality. In my Church, we do not condone the act of homosexuality. We know that God also loves the homosexuals. In fact, He loves all sinners, but it is the sin that God does not approve of. We don't hate the homosexuals or the atheists, but we cannot approve of their acts because it is not approved by God.

I am not familar with what you mean by Satanism and Modern Culture in all 14 parts. Perhaps, you can try to explain more on that.

As for Catholicism and Christianity, because I am a Catholic I can say for certain that Catholics do believe in Purgatory (which means "a purging of sins). Most Protestants also believe that sins are purged before a soul enters Heaven because the Bible says that sin cannot exist in Heaven. The Protestants just don't call it "Purgatory." That is a term that you find only among Catholics. Also, Catholics are Christians. We believe in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. We believe that He is the Son of God and God incarnate. Therefore, we are Christians. I'm sure that some of my Protestant brothers and sisters on this forum board, however, would probably disagree.

So, you are from Poland? One of the semenarians in my Church is from Poland and my Catechist is also from Poland.

In Christ,
Selene

Okay, here we go. I hope I got the right video. Here's my first translation. My grammar, spelling and punctuation is horrible. I'm a visual thinker so I'm having much the same challenge as you trying to translate the words.

I'll try to translate part 2 later on this evening or tomorrow morning.





(The guy making the introductions)
Tonight I wanna warmly welcome our moderator, Sicon has spent over 40 years working in the south with people and communities who are trying to build a just and humane society. So let's welcome our moderator, Sicon!

Sicon (guy in the middle of the table)
"Thanks everyone for the debate, etc, etc" Sicon then asks everyone to honor "whatever force causes you to be a caring human being" Then he explains that Michael (guy on the left of the screen) will speak for 20 minutes, then Harry (the guy on the right of the screen) will respond for 5 minutes. Then Michael will speak for 20 minutes and Harry will respond for 5 minutes.

Harry: Actually, I'll speak for 20 minutes, then Michael will speak for 20 minutes. Then I'll speak for 5 minutes and Harry will speak for 5 minutes.

Sicon: They want me to ask them questions. I tried to think of the hardest questions, also the questions they get asked alot. (Sicon then goes on to explain how he'll moderate the time allowed to respond)

Sicon introduces the debators starting with

Harry Knox, Director of the Religion and Faith Program at the Human Rights Campaign, the nations largest lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender organization. A graduate of Lanchaster Theological Seminary, Lanchaster PA. Recieved distiguished Alumni Award- Robert V Moss Award for Excellence in Ministry.(2005). He's a member of First Congregational United Church of Christ (Washington, D.C.) He celebrated his 25 year long crush on his partner Mike Boseman on Valentines Day.

Dr. Michael Brown- Director of the Coalition of Conscience, A network of Christians and Believers working together for moral and cultural change through the Gosple. He also serves as President of Fire School of Ministry (Concord, NC). Holds a PHD in Near Eastern Languages and Literatures from New York University, and a published biblical scholar. Author of 20 books and host of the Jewish/Christian TV series Think It Through. He has spoken throughout American and in more than 20 nations. He has appeared on numerous TV and radio shows. His work has also been featured in publications such as the Washington Post, the Shard Observer, the Baltimore Sun, and Charlotte Magazine.

Sicon then asks Michael to open the debate.

Michael; "Thank you all for comming tonight. thank you harry for joining me in this dialogue. Happy Valentines Day to all! Before I get to the heart of my comments I want to make a few things very clear. I'm not speaking from the vantage point of moral superiority as a heterosexual to a homosexual. But as someone who fully believes that we all depend on the mercy and grace of God. I believe with all my heart that Jesus shed His blood for homosexual and heterosexual alike. I also believe that heterosexuals have done more to destroy the family than have any gay activists. I'm ashamed of the rampant pornography, divorce and scandals that have plagued the church in recent years. So there's no self righteousness here. Let me also say there will be no gay bashing on my lips because there is no "homo" hatred in my heart. What you see is what you get. You can also be assured that before preparing these notes I spent many hours listening. I've listened to those who've said they're ex-exgays, to those who say they love Jesus and have found spiritual affirmation in their homosexuality, to the gay leaders who've appealed to me to grant them what they consider "basic human rights.", to biblical scholars and theologeans who challenged the historic teaching of the church. In my listening above all, I've began listening to God's voice in the Scriptures and in the face of Jesus. As well as to the quiet voice of conscience and reason. It's only after that, that I stand to speak.

I want to appeal to you to hear me with as open heart and mind as possible.May I also point out that my personal sympathies and leanings are often with those who challenge the religious system and take on the establishment. So the countercultural appeal of the gosple resonates with me. I'm all for the healthy revolution of the church. Let dead orthodoxy be exposed when it departs from the Gospel.

Now a Christian response to homosexuality must fully agree with the Spirit and attitude of Jesus Himself. Meaning as followers of Jesus we must be willing to put asside our own interests and lay down our lives to help a hurting world. Overcomming evil and hatred with love. If homosexual practice is infact sinful in God's eyes, then we must not only proclaim the truth, we must give ourselves to reach out to gays and lesbians, with compassion and long suffering, understanding the tremendous rejection many of them have experienced, the inner conflits many of them have dealt with, especially if they tell us they're people of faith.

A Christian response to homosexuality must also look at the bigger picture and not just focus on a few proof texts. It must combine mercy and justice. Inclusion and standards sensitivity to human hearts and even greater sensitivity to God's heart. It must remember that Jesus who is perfect in holiness, reached out to the disenfrancised, and to the ones society was afraid to touch.

How does all this relate to our question tonight? A good place to start is John 1:17. For the law was given to Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
So a Christian response to homosexuality must be one of grace and truth. I don't want to appeal to your emotions alone. I don't want to insult your ability to carefully process the issues we're weighing. I want to speak with grace and truth, and I want to ask you, are you ready to listen with hearts and minds?

For those who have already prejudged the issues and came in assuming I'm wrong, Are you secure enough to ask yourself tonight if it's possible, I could be right? Are you willing to give me a hearing?

So going back to the twin themes of grace and truth, we'll begin with grace. I'm sad to say that in many respects the church has fallen short here. Treating gays and lesbians as the worse of sinners, demonizing a whole group of people because of the words and actions of a segment. Not providing and environment where they can work through their struggles, proclaiming God's judgement more loudly than His love. For this, from my heart, I offer an appology as a Christian leader and a follower of Jesus Christ. I pledge to do better and hope others do better as well. To be candid in some profound ways, we have sinned against you in the gay and lesbian communities. I will not add to this the sin of being dishonest. Truth is beautiful, especially when contrast with lies and deception. We thank people who are truthfull like doctors, collegues and friends. Their words may hurt for the moment but in the end, They bring healing.

Zuzanna18 said:

WhiteKnuckle I really THHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

so much for your help you are amazing I say it from deep in my heart

NICE WORK


GOD BLESS YOU !!!

Click to expand...

No problem. This evening turned out busier than I thought so I couldn't do the second. I have a busy day tomorrow too. God willing I'll give some more translation. I'm sorry I couldn't do the other tonight as I'd hoped.

This takes a long time. I doubt I'll be able to finish all or even half of them. I am very busy. But, I'll keep doing what I can. I seriously hope you're truely needing this and it's not a practical joke or anything like that.

A Christian Response to Homosexuality part 2.

Michael:

What's the truth about homosexual practice according to God's word? Honestly the testimoney of scripture is quite clear. I can say that as a biblical scholar or as somebody who just loves the word. and to the point it's so clear that there are leading gay and lesbian scholars that freely acknowledge that the biblical authors condemned same sex practice. Infact we have the 3 fold knowledge of Moses, Jesus and Paul.

First the opening book of the Bible, Genesis. It establishes God's order and creation and it states that His imiage is revealed in the unique union of male and female. That's the union that He blessed and spoker over "To be fruitful an multiply". As basic as this may seem, When God looked for a suitable counterpart for the man He didn't choose an animal and didn't choose an exact replica of a man. He chose a woman because there was specific complimentarity and coworking and potential for procreation. This assumed everwhere in the scriptures. Children are told to honor father and mother. Husbands are told to love wifes, etc, etc. It's the Creators loving design.

In the book of leviticus, we not that the only specific sin called the toevah (spelling, pronounced Toe A Vah) in the book of leviticus called an abomination is homosexual practice. It's grouped together with other sinfull practices including incest, and beastiality.

I don't want to say that in a way that's demeaning to people here. I'm just looking at the scriptural evidence.

In contrast to many laws that were given specifically to Israel alone to keep them seperate from other cultures, such as dietary laws, and purity laws. The laws concerning sexual ethics, beastiality, incest, family boundaries broken, homosexual practice. Those were universaly forbidden. God says it's a sin for any of the pagan nations to do it and it was forbidden for Isarel as well.

We come to the teachings of Jesus, we're often told Jesus had nothing to say about homosexuality. Well, He had nothing to say about beastiality, or pediphilia, He had nothing to say about wife beating etc. So we don't draw conclusions from that. but infact He reinforced the teaching that came before him. First He stated he didn't come to abolish the law and the prophets. He came to fullfill them. How did He do it? All the sacrifices, the blood system he fullfilled by dying on the cross. And then he took the moral ethic of the old testament including the sexual ethic and raised it to a higher level. Secondly He taught that all sexual immorality in any form defiled us. Any scholar of first century Jewish studies will tell you that all sexual acts outside of male/female marriage were considered immorality pronaia in the Greek. (spelling,,, pronounced Porn A uh) He said those defile us. And thirdly He reinforced God's intent of male/female union for life as the Creators design, that's Jesus Himself.

What about the fact that Jesus reached out to the disenfranchised and the marginalized? In doing so He definately rebukes alot of our stiff religiosity. No question about it. Alot of us are afraid to get our hands dirty. But let's remember. When Jesus touched the lepor, He didn't just touch him He healed him. When Jesus hung out with the tax collectors and the prostitutes, and the tax collectors were notorious for fraud. He didn't encourage them to get more money from fraud and to become better and better prostitutes. He reached out to the disenfrancised and changed them. You can call it a transformational inclusion. That's the Jesus of the gospels.

When we come to the teaching of paul, It's not surprise that a top lesbian scholar like Burnadette Bruton could write " I see Paul as condemning all forms of homoeroticism. While the online GLBTQ encyclopedia stated that most of the debate surrounding the meaning of pauls words was " Largely provoked by gay authors anxious to show that paul and the early church had not intended to condemn homosexuality perse' as harshly as traditionaly supposed, but only a degraded type of pederasty associated with prostitution and child abuse." They conclude the idea, (this is the online gay and lesbian encyclopedia) that "Paul was not speaking of homosexual practice, and 1 Corinthians 6 is fiction.". I can go on with other quotes from leading gay and lesbian scholars that say, If you take the scriptures by what they say, they do condemn same sex practice.

The good news from Paul is this, after saying that those who are engaged in homosexual practice were forbiden from entering the kingdom of God, He said "That's what some of you were". There's a whole list of various sins I myself came out of a background of heavy drugs and ungodly living. God transforms us to the core of our being. That's the gospel message. Paul actually states that, "We were by nature all of us objects of wrath." Jesus changes our very nature. Paul lays out plainly in Romans 1 that male/male sex and female/female sex is contrary to natural order. Not contrary to our natural inclinations, but contrary to God's natural established order.

Now my collegue in dialogue tonight Harry Knox has been as gracious and cooperative as anyone could be. I told him he's been the nicest guy to deal with that I've ever had a public debate or dialogue with. I deeply appreciate his participation tonight. But, I have to take strong exception to something he said on national telivision recently. Quote, "What's clear from our experience, and from science, is that being gay or lesbian is an immutable and unchangeable gift from God. One for which I'm very greatfull. It would fly in the face of my respect for God to give that gift back. It would simply be unethical and hurtfull to our relationship with the Creator to give back gifts that God has given us."

I deeply respect his heartfealt sincerity, but I have to differ in the clearest possible terms.

Our friend tonight states that sexual orientation is a gift from God, which leads to the question, "Are all sexual orientations gifts from God?"

I'm about to state somethings but I am not comparing these to homosexual practice. I'm simply raising a point.
Are all sexual orientations gifts from God?

What do we tell the ephebophile who's attracted only to adolesents, or the compulsive exibitionists or the necrophiliacs? What do we tell the person with zooephilia, beastiality, or carprophilia?

I'm not comparing these things. I'm simply saying, that if all sexual orientation is a gift from God, why not these?

How can we call something like gender identity disorder a gift from God? Someone feels that they're born in the wrong body they suffer terrible emotional pain that causes some to want to tear off their genitalia. The suffer struggles in childhood and adolesence. How is that a gift from God? Either the body is wrong or something's wrong on the inside. That's certainly not a gift from the Creator. It'd be an insult to God to call it a gift.

Harry stated that it'd be truely unethical and hurtful to our relationship to our Creator to give back gifts that God has given us. Then, Why support sex change operations? As the human rights campaign does so aggressively. Even calling for businesses to have sex change transition policies in place. Including special bathroom accomidations for those undergoing sex change operations.

Isn't that the ultimate insult to the Creator? Why mutilate the beautiful and unique design made by God?

It was also stated that both experience and science teach that being gay and lesbian is immutable.

While I don't doubt for a second that some gays here tonight which state that they tried to change but couldn't. And I cannot for a moment relate to some of the struggles some of you have gone through. So if I say anything that sounds trite, I don't mean it to be trite. But I personally know people who are ex-gays. Why deny their experience? Some I've known for years that have no reason to be lying. Why ridicule them as liars and charlotons? Insults are hurled at ex gays with frightening regularity from the gay and lesbian community, when you want others to take your experience seriously.

What do we say to the many scientific studies including recent indepth longitudinal studies documented that many gays do infact change their orientation? (especialy through faith based ministry and counceling.) Some do. That says enough.

A Christian response to homosexuality must, also point to the potential for people to change. We also have the testimony of progay pschycologist that say that genuine change is possible atleast for some.

Just last month I met a young man after a meeting. He came up glowing and said, "I was a homosexual for years. I had a deep encounter with Jesus and had a deep transformation in my life and I'm not gay anymore" I questioned him and he was gloing and gloing and smiling. Why should I doubt him?

And I have a question, If God could eledgidly give a gift to someone with homosexuality doesn't that same God have the power to change someone ? Even the strongly gay affirming american psychiactric association, while down playing the influence of environment and nurture on homosexual development, stated in 2000, quote " some people believe, that sexual orientation is inate and fixed. However sexual orientation developes accross a persons lifetime. To date, there are no replicated scientific studies reporting any specific biological atiology for homosexuality."
In other words, No scientific study absolutely saying that homosexual behavior is biological, genetic, there may be genetic influences, but no studies saying people are born that way.

Zuzanna18 said:

Hi!

Really WhiteKnuckle I appreciate your work I am sorry if you don't believe me that you think it's joke, but it's not. I need it. By the way i am going to look for all the time such information about religion and all the time think about people and their troubles so this is reason why I am ooking for help with those videos.

REALLY THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




I don't know truly tell me people what should I do to not burden one person of my idea. I am not enough good in English to do this alone. what would you do if you were me with those videos?



GOD BLESS

Click to expand...

LOl, don't get me wrong. I'm not complaining. I'm onery. (like to play jokes) so, I'm always on the lookout. :blink: I believe you. If not I wouldn't be trying to help. I'll get somemore later this week.

"SATANISM AND MODERN CULTURE" quotes from part one > I have put my comments in blue.

Starting at 33 seconds > "Satanist Rex Church admits that Satanists are using music as a weapon of propaganda to influence youth around the world against Christ in order to establish the anti-Christ kingdom on earth. Sadly, hundreds of millions of people of all ages, but especially young people, have fallen prey to Satan's seduction through music." < 50 seconds


In Isaiah 14:12, Satan is called, "You who weakened the nations!" So, Satan does act to make nations of people weak, so he can control them. And I would say that wrong music can be used to help to make people weak so Satan can control them.

At 2 minutes > "The youth of our country are under attack. They're under siege; and while it can hardly be said that rock and current pop music, alone, is the sole cause, what you are about to see in this program will more than confirm that it has played a vital and undeniable role in the deterioration of the moral, and emotional, and psychological strength of our youth. And, as we are about to learn, it is no accident that it's happening just that way, because it was purposely designed and executed to happen that way. Let me explain how it works."

Our Apostle Paul says there is "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience," in Ephesians 2:2. So, it is Satan's disobedient spirit witch "works" people to become weak and to give in to Satan. So, our main warfare is not really just "against flesh and blood" music people who make wrong music.


But Satan himself and the kingdom of his spirit of disobedience is working in people to make them weak so he can control them; so there is the constant conspiring of Satan, himself, to get control of people, by making us weak.


2:33 > "Recently, an ex-KGB propaganda agent from the former Soviet Union talked at a local college. He had defected some time before and he spoke about the methods that he and other Soviet agents had used to actually overthrow entire governments. He said that they used a four-step process to turn three countries into closed communist countries. Those four steps were as follows:"


"1. Demoralize


2. Destabilize


3. Cause Rebellion; and then


4. Take over." < 3:07

Stopping the methods and the music will not stop people from being weak so Satan can effect and control us. Our warfare needs to be deeper than fighting against wrong music, etc.

3:07 > " So, the idea was that first the communists would pump in their propaganda; in other words, they would relentlessly deliver the message that they wanted to get the people to accept. Second, they would introduce relatively mild unrest and dissatisfaction amongst the people through that message; in other words, they would cause them to become dissatisfied with the status quo. Third, they would then be able to excite the people to flagrant rebellion. And finally, they would move in and take over complete control of the government, and the people, themselves."

3:39 > "And what is interesting is that the first step . . . to demoralize the people through propaganda . . . often took up to twenty years. And it was done by putting a constant message in front of the people, over and over again. Of course, at first, the message is rejected by the people as too radical and unacceptable, too obviously wrong and against their values. But, as the message stays in front of the people, over a long period of time, the people begin to gradually - - ever so subtly - - shift in their beliefs and moral values. And what is particularly scary is that, after being exposed to the propaganda for so long, they don't even notice that they have shifted in their beliefs and moral values, over time: they no longer are shocked or alarmed or see any danger, because the change is so slow and so subtle.

I notice that wrong things can keep coming to my mind, over and over again, like how the KGB agents would keep presenting their message, over and over again.

4:29 > "That is exactly what has happened in the United States. It has happened in what we see on television and in the movies. It has happened in the acceptance and tolerance of moral issues like divorce and abortion and use of alcohol; and it has certainly happened and even been influenced by the music industry."

But why did the people give in to the Satanic influence? Because Satan's spirit, deeper, kept working to make them weak enough to go along. And I consider, that desiring *independence* has made us weak so we can then accept divorcing in order to have our independence! And ones kill their unborn with whom they could learn real love; they wanted *independence*, instead!! And ones can drink because things are so stressing against their *independence*!!!


But Jesus says, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." (in Luke 9:23).

4:50 > "Over time, slowly and gradually, shocking messages that would have been rejected twenty years ago have gained acceptance, and very few people have noticed. And particularly our children haven't noticed, because they've never known anything else. Now, you may be thinking, 'Oh, this sounds like something my grandmother or some fire-and-brimstone Puritan preacher would have told me. Am I supposed to belief there's actually a conspiracy of evil taking place, that is spearheaded by the music industry?'"

I'm offering, that one can not give in to wrong music, etc., and get divorces and commit abortion and argue, etc., unless one has first made oneself an idol temple for the worship of one's *independence*; and *independence* has been getting promoted for many years, in America, I would offer. I mean, ones do not wish to deny themselves and take up the cross of becoming pleasing to our Heavenly Father and learning how to love any and all people.

And so, I can see that Satan would want to get people's *attention* decoyed to worrying about outward music, so we don't deal with our real problem of how we worship our idol of our free will's independence from God. And then, in our independence of controlling our own choices, we are in such weakness so we can keep on suffering in worry and impatience and nasty angry reacting and arguing and lingering hurts with unforgiveness, etc.


In the United States, many children have not been brought up to know how to love; so they do not know how to choose who to marry and how to make their marriages work. Meanwhile, because they have not learned how to live in God's all-loving love which would give them strength, they stay in weakness so they can be played along with different fads of music and video games and fake sex and various sorts of pleasure seeking; ones are trying to make themselves feel what is nicer than the awful-mess of Satan's selfish and independent spirit.


Music can not satisfy us, like only God's love can, with His beauty of melody and Heaven's quality of pleasant rest tenderly soothing and caressing us in our souls. Jesus our Groom says, "'Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.'" (Matthew 11:29)

Where are they translating it from? Is there a website? Being Catholic, I would be interested to hear what the translation is for Purgatory.

In Christ,
Selene

Selene said:

Where are they translating it from? Is there a website? Being Catholic, I would be interested to hear what the translation is for Purgatory.

In Christ,
Selene

Click to expand...

Selene . . . Hi . . . I am Bill . . . glad to meet you . . . in the first post by Zuzanna, you can see where it says, "4 1-9 Catholicism -VS- Christianity - Topic- Purgatory (all parts)"


I understand that if we put part of this quote into an Internet search service, this can bring us to where this is in the Internet. So, let me try "Catholicism -VS- Christianity - Topic- Purgatory", and make sure this is in *quotes* so the service does not give me every website having every word in this quote


Yup, this search gives me websites with videos of this. I would say to go into a website that you know, because false websites can be present to give a virus. Make sure you use a website that you know is safe, because there are various places claiming to cover this, and there could be one that is hostile.


In my search, I found one that starts with "1-9 Catholicism -VS- Christianity - Topic- Purgatory" and this has a website that I know; so I think now I will write a little of what this says.

First there is an introduction with what the Roman Catholic Church says about Purgatory, and Protestant scriptures to challenge this. Then, at 5:29 on the tape, they start discussing the views of a Protestant vs a Jesuit priest's comments.

5:29-8:59 has comments by a Protestant Bible scholar.

The 2-9 video has the Jesuit Priest commenting, in 00.00-5:13, with scripture.
Then the Protestant scholar comments > 5:13-8:59

In video 3-9, he continues to 4:15. Then the priest comments, in 4:21-5:52. Then the Protestant makes comments, in 5:52-6:23. Then there is comparison of beliefs until the end of the tape.

In video 4-9, the summary continues, from 00:00-0:31. Then there is comparison and discussion. I find that, to the end of this tape, the show has favored the Protestant with time.

I don't think either the Catholic or Protestant presentation fully presents the Biblical process of salvation. I'll try to keep what I understand simple:

Protestants can make a sacrament of saying "the sinner's prayer". This can be a work, too.

Every thing we do in the Holy Spirit is ministering to our own selves the grace that we need in order to more and more conform to be like Jesus, so we can spend eternity with Him. We need to be transformed to be like our Groom so we are compatible with Him to spend eternity with Him. Consider 1 John 4:17, about how this is happening "in this world."

And our cups run over to each other, to minister this to one another. Consider the power that Christians have to help each other, in Galatians 6:1 and also in James 5:16. All this is necessary for salvation, since this gets us correctionally healed to become like Jesus.

But this is not limited to how a religious group can tell us what to do. But, at every moment, we need to be doing exactly what God is leading us to do, in His love (Romans 5:5), so this love is changing us to become all-loving while we are living this love. "For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46) I understand that this does not directly say you are not saved if you love only those who love you. But . . . if we are not all-loving like Jesus, then we are not holy in His all-loving love.

And it does say, that, without holiness, "no one will see the Lord." (in Hebrews 12:14) And in this same chapter, we see how God's correction . . . in this life, I would offer . . . changes us to become how You, LORD our Father, want us to become holy in Your own love all-loving. And this correction, then, is the true "purgatory", because it corrects us, with this correction involving how it is "painful" (verse 12:11) or "grievous". But we are not merely made to suffer for our sins, but we are changed into being loving like Jesus is.

So, I am considering that neither the Protestant nor the Roman Catholic presentation is adequate, but they are each trying to promote each one's inferior view over the other's inferior view, as sibling rivals.

And I submit, that Isaiah 55:11 says,

"'So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
. It shall not return to Me void,
. But it shall accomplish what I please,
. And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.'"

So, God's word is unconditionally guaranteed to "accomplish" and "prosper in" all that God Himself pleases, and therefore all that God Himself means, so better than any of us can explain and believe, now ! ! ! And it does say, "in this world" (1 John 4:17) we are "as He is", so that we "have boldness in the day of judgment". So, God is not failing to do this with whoever of us are truly His children.

Therefore, be honest with God; trust Him for how He has you do an honest self-examination, about how we really are, by His standard of what *He* means by His word: "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves." (in 2 Corinthians 13:5) Paul says there is nothing that profits us, "but faith working through love." (in Galatians 5:6)

Is our faith working so we are all-loving in God's own love??? God's love is absolutely beautifully wonderful in love having Heaven's quality of pleasantness. In the beauty of this love's "gentle and quiet spirit" (1 Peter 3:4) we are pleasing to Him, in sensitive and personal and intimate sharing with our Father, in this love. And how You are loving with us is our Example of how You please for us to be loving with any and all people (Ephesians 5:1-2). So, does our faith have us experiencing oneness with our Father (1 Corinthians 6:17), so we are enjoying how He is in His love (Psalm 34:8, Romans 5:5), and is He making us the same way, more and more obviously because of this faith which works by means of this love???

By the way, Psalm 34:8 says,

"Oh, taste and see that the LORD is good;
.Blessed is the man who trusts in Him!"


So, God wants us to taste Him. Considering how superior God is to us, I'd say this shows how God is not conceited, if He wants us to taste Him

And even though Jesus is so superior to us, Jesus left Heaven, itself, in order to reach us, here on earth, and to *personally* share with people, here; so this also shows me how un-conceited Jesus must be. Are we so humble in love, that we are gladly willing to leave our own little heavens that we have made for ourselves, in order to reach to and love any and all people??? Please have us discovering how You desire to have us love, LORD, and thank You in the name of Jesus our Lord and Savior and Groom soon-coming: "And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment." (Philippians 1:9)

Bill said:

Selene . . . Hi . . . I am Bill . . . glad to meet you . . . in the first post by Zuzanna, you can see where it says, "4 1-9 Catholicism -VS- Christianity - Topic- Purgatory (all parts)"


I understand that if we put part of this quote into an Internet search service, this can bring us to where this is in the Internet. So, let me try "Catholicism -VS- Christianity - Topic- Purgatory", and make sure this is in *quotes* so the service does not give me every website having every word in this quote

Yup, this search gives me websites with videos of this. I would say to go into a website that you know, because false websites can be present to give a virus. Make sure you use a website that you know is safe, because there are various places claiming to cover this, and there could be one that is hostile.


In my search, I found one that starts with "1-9 Catholicism -VS- Christianity - Topic- Purgatory" and this has a website that I know; so I think now I will write a little of what this says.

First there is an introduction with what the Roman Catholic Church says about Purgatory, and Protestant scriptures to challenge this. Then, at 5:29 on the tape, they start discussing the views of a Protestant vs a Jesuit priest's comments.

5:29-8:59 has comments by a Protestant Bible scholar.

The 2-9 video has the Jesuit Priest commenting, in 00.00-5:13, with scripture.
Then the Protestant scholar comments > 5:13-8:59

In video 3-9, he continues to 4:15. Then the priest comments, in 4:21-5:52. Then the Protestant makes comments, in 5:52-6:23. Then there is comparison of beliefs until the end of the tape.

In video 4-9, the summary continues, from 00:00-0:31. Then there is comparison and discussion. I find that, to the end of this tape, the show has favored the Protestant with time.

I don't think either the Catholic or Protestant presentation fully presents the Biblical process of salvation. I'll try to keep what I understand simple:

Protestants can make a sacrament of saying "the sinner's prayer". This can be a work, too.

Every thing we do in the Holy Spirit is ministering to our own selves the grace that we need in order to more and more conform to be like Jesus, so we can spend eternity with Him. We need to be transformed to be like our Groom so we are compatible with Him to spend eternity with Him. Consider 1 John 4:17, about how this is happening "in this world."

And our cups run over to each other, to minister this to one another. Consider the power that Christians have to help each other, in Galatians 6:1 and also in James 5:16. All this is necessary for salvation, since this gets us correctionally healed to become like Jesus.

But this is not limited to how a religious group can tell us what to do. But, at every moment, we need to be doing exactly what God is leading us to do, in His love (Romans 5:5), so this love is changing us to become all-loving while we are living this love. "For if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46) I understand that this does not directly say you are not saved if you love only those who love you. But . . . if we are not all-loving like Jesus, then we are not holy in His all-loving love.

And it does say, that, without holiness, "no one will see the Lord." (in Hebrews 12:14) And in this same chapter, we see how God's correction . . . in this life, I would offer . . . changes us to become how You, LORD our Father, want us to become holy in Your own love all-loving. And this correction, then, is the true "purgatory", because it corrects us, with this correction involving how it is "painful" (verse 12:11) or "grievous". But we are not merely made to suffer for our sins, but we are changed into being loving like Jesus is.

So, I am considering that neither the Protestant nor the Roman Catholic presentation is adequate, but they are each trying to promote each one's inferior view over the other's inferior view, as sibling rivals.

And I submit, that Isaiah 55:11 says,

"'So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth;
. It shall not return to Me void,
. But it shall accomplish what I please,
. And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.'"

So, God's word is unconditionally guaranteed to "accomplish" and "prosper in" all that God Himself pleases, and therefore all that God Himself means, so better than any of us can explain and believe, now ! ! !

And it does say, "in this world" (1 John 4:17) we are "as He is", so that we "have boldness in the day of judgment". So, God is not failing to do this with whoever of us are truly His children.

Therefore, be honest with God; trust Him for how He has you do an honest self-examination, about how we really are, by His standard of what *He* means by His word: "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves." (in 2 Corinthians 13:5) Paul says there is nothing that profits us, "but faith working through love." (in Galatians 5:6)

Is our faith working so we are all-loving in God's own love??? God's love is absolutely beautifully wonderful in love having Heaven's quality of pleasantness. In the beauty of this love's "gentle and quiet spirit" (1 Peter 3:4) we are pleasing to Him, in sensitive and personal and intimate sharing with our Father, in this love. And how You are loving with us is our Example of how You please for us to be loving with any and all people (Ephesians 5:1-2). So, does our faith have us experiencing oneness with our Father (1 Corinthians 6:17), so we are enjoying how He is in His love (Psalm 34:8, Romans 5:5), and is He making us the same way, more and more obviously because of this faith which works by means of this love???

By the way, Psalm 34:8 says,

"Oh, taste and see that the LORD is good;
.Blessed is the man who trusts in Him!"


So, God wants us to taste Him. Considering how superior God is to us, I'd say this shows how God is not conceited, if He wants us to taste Him

And even though Jesus is so superior to us, Jesus left Heaven, itself, in order to reach us, here on earth, and to *personally* share with people, here; so this also shows me how un-conceited Jesus must be. Are we so humble in love, that we are gladly willing to leave our own little heavens that we have made for ourselves, in order to reach to and love any and all people??? Please have us discovering how You desire to have us love, LORD, and thank You in the name of Jesus our Lord and Savior and Groom soon-coming: "And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in knowledge and all discernment." (Philippians 1:9)

Click to expand...

Hello Bill,

Thank you for the information.

In Christ,
Selene