I don't deny the scriptures, that statement about Eccl. is completely your opinion.You have yet to refute my last post. So I'll post it again just in case you forgot. Anastacia Just explain what this means John 5: [sup]28[/sup]Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,[sup]29[/sup]And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. ALL MEANS ALL, IN THE GRAVE!! AT THE RESURRECTION!!! Please explain that verse then sinsce you said "God's Word is powerful, with one scripture"....I showed you with one scripture ALL IN THE GRAVES. Explain that verse then.
Jesus Christ Is The Only “…first Born From The Dead.”
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It couldn't possibly mean that all will be the graves as you are presenting it...for, "we shall not all sleep."
It seems reasonable that Jesus is dealing with His listeners concerning resurrection based upon their understanding...even as it is wise to give milk to infants, rather than steak.
GTY
All in the graves, means just that, all in the graves. We are not talking about "we shall not all sleep". We were talking about the people in the graves already. The righteous in the grave found worthy, then the living found worthy will resurrect in the first resurrection. Those left will resurrect in the second. Point being, those in the graves. Not spirits in heaven.
Yes you do deny the scriptures. You say that statement about Ecclesiates is my opinion, but you are wrong about that. And, I don't have to refute every thing you post. Since you ignore, twist and deny most of the scriptures I present...I do not care to continue going on with this conversation with you.
The scripture you ask me about here, if there are no spirits of those who have died, then how do they hear Jesus' voice? All who die before the ressurection from the dead, they had physical bodies, bodies that are in graves. What is so hard to understand about that? I have explained it before, that you don't seem to understand that there is a body and a spirit for each person. The physical, earthly body dies. The spirit does not die. Go back and reread what I posted. What I say escapes you, since you do not retain the truth.
The scripture you quoted says all will be raised, " they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." You said "those left will resurrect in the second." Stop adding to the scriptures.
I'm done now with this discussion with you.
I agree.
It is the grave....
I don't agree with this statement. Again hell represents the grave..
Now, the only spirit that returns to God is the (breath of life) given to a man so he can live.
There is no new revelation concerning resurrection or disposition of the dead. What was taught in the old is was also taught in the new. Job knew about the same teaching Paul taught.
Job :14:[sup]10[/sup]But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? [sup]11[/sup]As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
[sup]12[/sup]So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job knew about going to the grave, and not rising til the heaven be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
[sup]13[/sup]O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Listen to what he said, hide me in the grave, until the appointed time.
Job14:[sup]14[/sup]If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
[sup]15[/sup]Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
He said "days of my appointed time, till his change comes". vs 15 "thou shall call,and I will answer thee"
1 Thess. 4:[sup]13[/sup]But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. [sup]14[/sup]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[sup]15[/sup]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[sup]16[/sup]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[sup]17[/sup]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
read what Job said, and compare it to what Paul said. Same doctrine, same spirit, different time. God true doctrine doesn't change.
You have yet to prove any is in heaven or hell. I have shown from both new and old testaments to prove men go to the grave until they are call from the grave by the Lord at the resurrection.
I don't mind debating in brotherly fashion. I hope you and Anastasia consider the scriptures I have provided. People need to know the truth, not fables about people being judge as soon as they die. If the righteous spirit goes to heaven, and the unrighteous go to hell, then that means they are judged already. That is not scriptural, and spirit of error. Considered false doctrine.
So the spirits in prison are "breath?"
This scripture alone brings clarity that a spirit is a sentient entity...not a "life-force."
Then there is no mystery found in the New Testament. Paul was mistaken.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Now, contrast that with the teaching of the New Testament, where we are given more information concerning being raised out of "sleep."
Job says they wont, N.T. scripture is clear they will be.
[sup]
Who are the souls in Heaven in Revelation?
[/sup]
But does he speak of the temporal, or death?
True, His doctrine does not change, but the amount given does. The doctrine of resurrection is expanded in the New Testament.
Revelation 6:9 (King James Version)
[sup]9[/sup]And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Revelation 20:4 (King James Version)
[sup]4[/sup]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Will that help?
Glad to hear it...look forward to examining scripture with you.
The disposition of the spirit does not mean that there is not multiple judgments found in scripture.
Again, a death row inmate is one judged...awaiting judgment.
GTY
Xander, you still do not acknowledge Hebrews 12:23. Hebrews 12:23 tells us that the spirits of righteous men are in heaven.
I will never believe in your doctrine of death. I'm not even sure how you could possible know of the life changing power of God in a Christian's life if you do not fully understand the power of God.
It just makes me sad when I think of the confusion you are causing other Christians. I hope that I have helped strengthen my brothers and sisters in Christ in this discussion. I really enjoyed reading S.T. Ranger's debate in this topic.
Here are some more scriptures that tell us the dead are alive. John 8:56 tells us that Abraham is alive and conscious, so much so that he could see and be glad.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
Luke 20:38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."
I will never believe in your doctrine of death. I'm not even sure how you could possible know of the life changing power of God in a Christian's life if you do not fully understand the power of God.
It just makes me sad when I think of the confusion you are causing other Christians. I hope that I have helped strengthen my brothers and sisters in Christ in this discussion. I really enjoyed reading S.T. Ranger's debate in this topic.
Here are some more scriptures that tell us the dead are alive. John 8:56 tells us that Abraham is alive and conscious, so much so that he could see and be glad.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."
Luke 20:38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."
Job is well aware that he will be raised AND when it will happen. Let's read ALL of God's word.....
Job.14
[12] So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
Job says here that man will lie down, UNTIL the heavens are no more. Let's confirm....
[13] O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job understands that God's wrath will come and that he has a set time that God will remember him. Let's continue....
[14] If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Again, Job fully understood that man will live again and that a change in body was to come.
Notice Job says NOTHING about that change happening at the time of his death. As a matter of fact, let's read just when that change will come by the mouth of Job....
[15] Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
This goes hand in hand with the NT;
Rev.11
[12] And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither.
For when the Lord call these two, ALL the saints of the Lord found worthy to be in the first resurrection will respond!
.
You miss the point.
Job knew nothing of the bodily resurrection of those who would be glorified while still living.
The point is that the New Testament expands the teaching of resurrection.
It cannot be denied.
GTY
And what is it you are trying to say about Jesus being the ONLY first born from the dead?
.
Eccl.12:13, How about you study carefully Hebrews 12:23 and tell us that you now see that the spirit of righteous men are in heaven?
The point is simple: the OP confuses glorification with life after death. Jesus is the Firstborn from the dead, the only One who has received a glorified body.
That in no way substantiates that anyone's "granny is not in heaven yet."
Nice terminology, by the way.
The facetious manner in which the treatment of those who have passed away should be enough to give anybody a reason to carefully examine everything else that is said in this "teaching."
GTY
Anastasia it is apparent you did not understand what Jesus was talking about when he made the statement in
John 8:[sup]55[/sup]Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying. [sup]56[/sup]Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Jesus wasn't talking about Abraham spirit, He was speaking of when Jesus as Melchizedek met Abraham after the war of the kings.
Gen 14:[sup]17[/sup]And the king of Sodom went out to meet him after his return from the slaughter of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings that were with him, at the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's dale.
[sup]18[/sup]And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
[sup]19[/sup]And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
[sup]20[/sup]And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
Heb 7: [sup]1[/sup]For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
[sup]2[/sup]To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
[sup]3[/sup]Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
[sup]4[/sup]Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
What man do can have these type of attributes? No man, this was God(Jesus) known as Melchisedec. Now read John the next verses in John 8. Listen to the Jews question. The question is the indicator that Jesus was not speaking of Abraham's spirit.
John 8:[sup]57[/sup]Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Listen to Jesus Answer!
[sup]58[/sup]Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Exodus 6:2
I hope I have cleared that up. Jesus is the God of the living not the dead. I am not teaching a doctrine of death. If you take the time to review, and consider all the scriptures I provided, then maybe we can reason together in the scripture. It seems as if you not even willing to consider them before you respond. I have consider, and examined Heb 12: [sup]23[/sup]To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, All I see here is that the names of the just men are written in heaven. Consider the book of life, and where is it? In heaven. Hope we can reason together in the scripture. Peace!
Ranger this post does not refute the teachings of the original post. This statement "The facetious manner in which the treatment of those who have passed away should be enough to give anybody a reason to carefully examine everything else that is said in this "teaching." People should examine carefully any teaching that is given on any thread. Prove all things, test the spirit, how? By reading, and understanding what the truth is in the word. From what I have read in the original post, I have read sound doctrine. Not an interpretation of the scriptures, but sound doctrine. If you refute the OP with the scriptures, there is no need to try to discredit it by simply making statement like that. That just shows you have no sound answer to refute the teaching in the OP. That is my opinion though!
Ranger, the spirits in prison were angels.
[sup] [/sup]
There aren't any souls in heaven. Did you read vs10 [sup]10[/sup]And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? The dead don't cry out. I already explain to you about the dead having no wisdom, knowledge, in the grave where they Go!
Ecc.9: [sup]10[/sup]Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. KJV
Ecc.9:[sup]10[/sup]Whatever your hand finds to do,[sup](A)[/sup] do it with your might,[sup][a][/sup][sup](B)[/sup] for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going. ESV
Now once you understand that, the rest should be easy. Rev 6: [sup]10[/sup]And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? This verse is a metaphor like the one in Gen 4: [sup]10[/sup]And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. Blood doesn't have a voice, and neither do dead souls. In scripture God uses metaphor like these sometimes to get His message a cross.
No, that doesn't help. Rev 20: [sup]4[/sup]And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
The part that should of gave you a clue this wasn't in heaven was "neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." That part should of indicated what time this was. It couldn't of been in heaven, because Christ kingdom, and His reign will be on earth. Zech. 14: [sup]9[/sup]And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Dan 7:[sup]27[/sup]And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Hopefully that helps.
Prove this statement "The disposition of the spirit does not mean that there is not multiple judgments found in scripture." Prove that through the scriptures. I only know of the Great White Throne Judgment, and that's after the 1000 yr reign on earth. That's after the second resurrection.
I will agree with you that this particular post does not address specifically the OP with scripture, however, the preceding posts do.
You see sound doctrine, I see doctrine that strengthens (and very poorly) ones position, but in no way, and I will say it again, shows that people do not go to be with the Lord when they die. Nor does it show that the wicked do not go to hell.
This particular post is just as this one you have just made...just my opinion.
Perhaps you would care to answer the OPs exposition of "perfection," and my opinion that the statements are erronous.
Hebrews 12:23 (King James Version)
[sup]23[/sup]To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
That the saved are written in the book of life is a given, and that they will never be blotted out is spoken by Jesus Himself. Revelation 3:5
Would you now answer to how it is that the spirits of the just have been made perfect?
Have you not indicated that the spirit is the "life-force," rather than the person themself? Please clarify your position on this.
And what is the perfecting spoken of here? The OP indicates that it is the receiving of the glorified body, if I remember correctly.
This would be one of the things in the OP that I would care to discuss.
GTY
Xander, You are teaching a doctrine of death, and you deny God's Word. Jesus says God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.
Why is it that you don't want to see what Jesus is saying? Is God not the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Have they not died? Please answer, Xander.
Since you say that Jesus' day was when he met Abraham as Melchizedek, then you are denying the possibility that the day Jesus came to the world to give salvation was not Jesus' day?
When I asked you to explain how there are spirits of righteous men in heaven, you said: "All I see here is that the names of the just men are written in heaven."
So, you can't see the words "the spirits of righteous men"?
You do not know the power of God, nor do you understand the scriptures. You not only not understand the scriptures---you deny some of the words exist?
Sorry, Xander, I missed this. I was in a hurry earlier.
1 Peter 3:19-20 (King James Version)
[sup]19[/sup]By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; [sup]20[/sup]Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
So the spirits who were "sometime disobedient" in the days of Noah were angels?
[sup][/sup]
Yes, I actually did read v.10. As well as v. 11:
[sup]11[/sup]And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
As well as this one:
Revelation 9:13 (King James Version)
[sup]13[/sup]And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
I see no reason to assume that one is earthly, and the other heavenly.
Except when speaking about the souls under the altar, it is the souls themselves speaking, and...being answered.
You actually make a good point here, concerning where this takes place, however, it would seem that we still see those who have died being raised.
And in ch. 6, we see them speaking.
1 Peter 3:19-20 (King James Version)
[sup]19[/sup]By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; [sup]20[/sup]Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
That should be enough.
These are clearly people, not angels.
GTY
1 Peter 3:19-20 (King James Version)
[sup]19[/sup]By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; [sup]20[/sup]Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
So the spirits who were "sometime disobedient" in the days of Noah were angels?
[sup][/sup]
Yes, I actually did read v.10. As well as v. 11:
[sup]11[/sup]And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
As well as this one:
Revelation 9:13 (King James Version)
[sup]13[/sup]And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
I see no reason to assume that one is earthly, and the other heavenly.
Except when speaking about the souls under the altar, it is the souls themselves speaking, and...being answered.
You actually make a good point here, concerning where this takes place, however, it would seem that we still see those who have died being raised.
And in ch. 6, we see them speaking.
1 Peter 3:19-20 (King James Version)
[sup]19[/sup]By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; [sup]20[/sup]Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
That should be enough.
These are clearly people, not angels.
GTY
Xander, You can keep your doctrine of death to yourself. Here is a scripture for you....
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Matthew 23:13
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Matthew 23:13
Two things in this post I found to be interesting, and quickly, as I do not have a lot of time, I will re-address them so as to try to follow a thought process to a conclusion, rather than leave it hanging.
The first is this challenge, which, I don't think I will prove it to the poster, because we view events a little differently, and will have to somehow conclusively finalize the original complaint/s concerning the premise of the OP, and I have yet to see anyone actually change their position due to debate on a forum, no matter how well the position is defended.
It is good, though, for those who I would call "seekers," who are watching the forums, and perhaps doing so because God has moved them to seek Him.
For their sake, I think it good that they see the opposing positions presented, and am confident that the Lord will work in their lives as He sees fit, bringing them to the conclusion that will further the process of bringing them to saving faith through His word.
I hope that my posting will not bring offense to either them, or those involved in the discussion, though I have no doubt that when certain doctrines are presented and refuted, offense will be taken.
To "prove" the quote above, it will need to be established that when one dies, they either go into a consciousless existence in the grave, as the OP affirms, or, they go into either Heaven or Hell, depending on their acceptance or rejection of the command of God, to believe in the name of Jesus Christ.
The other thing that I found interesting in this post, was the observation that the tribulational martyrs resurrected in Revelation ch. 20 were "not in heaven," but, as would be a likely and reasonable assumption, on earth, where the bodies of those who have died will be resurrected, which I think is a good observation, seeing as to how their bodies are in fact on the earth...in the "grave."
However, it must be pointed out in this discussion, that prior to their resurrection, it seems clear that they are in heaven, and I think that can be established quite easily.
Due to time, this will not be a thorough presentation, but is an attempt to bring all who have been involved in the discussion to the table, where we can, before God (and the lost who may be observing us), discuss this issue in a civil manner.
John is called to heaven, I think most will agree.
The Throne of God is seen, as well as 24 seats (same word as throne). Revelation 4:1-4
Jumping to Revelation 20:4 we are told John sees thrones.
It is reasonable, though maybe not conclusive, to assume these thrones are the same "seats" found in ch.4, and are in heaven.
Even as it is reasonable to assume that the throne of Revelation 20:11-12 is also in heaven.
Whatever conclusion you come to, it still brings to mind the idea that those resurrected are in heaven.
We see those who are clearly designated as martyrs here:
Revelation 6:9-11 (King James Version)
[sup]
[sup][/sup]
9[/sup]And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[sup]10[/sup]And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [sup]11[/sup]And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
...clearly representing a conscious state for those who have died.
This group is not designated specifically as "tribulational martyrs" as those found in Revelation 20: 4 are, but it would not be an unreasonable conclusion, I think, to think they are. But this is not really a point that needs to be debated concerning the discussion at hand.
While we are here, I would point this out, when the first four seals are opened, in Revelation 6:1-8, the four "beasts" (living beings) say, "Come, and see."
Why? I believe it is simple: they are in heaven, yet the events unfolding take place upon the earth, thus, the need to look from heaven...to earth.
Yet, when the fifth seal is broken, consider:
Revelation 6:9-11 (King James Version)
[sup]
[sup][/sup]
9[/sup]And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[sup]10[/sup]And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [sup]11[/sup]And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
...no need to "Come and see," for the event takes place in heaven.
Sound reasonable?
I will stop there, and give opportunity to respond to this post.
GTY
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