Jesus saves unbelievers !

justbyfaith · Jan 19, 2021

Tong2020 said:
That is even an IF. But as a better response, I would still refer you to the truth in Romans 5:8.

I haven’t heard you comment on the truth in Romans 5:8. What can you say?

Tong
R1440

That Jesus died for us while we were still sinners does not mean that every sinner is saved. The sinner must place his faith in Jesus to be saved; that is a given.

brightfame52 said:
Jesus saves unbelievers, He gives them faith and repentance when He saves them.

He saves them through faith and repentance. So He gives them faith and repentance before He saves them; then they are saved through that faith and repentance.

brightfame52 said:
When Jesus saves by Grace, faith is given at that time.

Jesus saves a man through the faith that is given. So, faith comes first.

Tong2020 · Jan 19, 2021

justbyfaith said:
That Jesus died for us while we were still sinners does not mean that every sinner is saved. The sinner must place his faith in Jesus to be saved; that is a given.

Nobody is saying that every sinner is saved. Besides I quoted Romans 5:8 in connection to your teaching that we have faith before grace. Romans 5:8 is one verse that effectively speaks of grace as first, Christ having died for us at a time when we were yet sinners, that is, at a time when faith has not yet come to us. He died for us some 2000 years ago at Calvary. Grace was given to us even then.

Do you still believe that we have faith before grace?

What is there in Romans 5:2 is having ACCESS to the grace, not having grace. For we already had grace even before we believed, when He died for us some 2000 years ago at Calvary. Access to that grace is different from having been given grace.

Tong
R1444

brightfame52 · Jan 19, 2021

justbyfaith said:
That Jesus died for us while we were still sinners does not mean that every sinner is saved. The sinner must place his faith in Jesus to be saved; that is a given.

He saves them through faith and repentance. So He gives them faith and repentance before He saves them; then they are saved through that faith and repentance.

Jesus saves a man through the faith that is given. So, faith comes first.

False, man naturally doesnt have faith, faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 so first there is a saving work of the Spirit Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Then Faith is given as a fruit from the renewing of the Holy Ghost.

brightfame52 · Jan 19, 2021

tong2020

What is there in Romans 5:2 is having ACCESS to the grace, not having grace. For we already had grace even before we believed, when He died for us some 2000 years ago at Calvary. Access to that grace is different from having been given grace.

Exactly !

justbyfaith · Jan 19, 2021

Tong2020 said:
Nobody is saying that every sinner is saved. Besides I quoted Romans 5:8 in connection to your teaching that we have faith before grace. Romans 5:8 is one verse that effectively speaks of grace as first, Christ having died for us at a time when we were yet sinners, that is, at a time when faith has not yet come to us. He died for us some 2000 years ago at Calvary. Grace was given to us even then.

That Jesus died for our sins does not preclude that we are all forgiven of our sins. Consider the implication that this understanding has for your doctrine. The "grace" of Jesus dying for us on the Cross is not applied until the person has faith in Him. Faith must precede the grace of being saved through that sacrifice; for the sacrifice is not applied except through faith in Jesus. Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners; yet this does not preclude that every sinner is saved. One must place their faith in Jesus and what He did for them in order to appropriate what He did for them while they were yet a sinner.

Tong2020 said:
Do you still believe that we have faith before grace?

Yes.

ChristisGod · Jan 19, 2021

brightfame52 said:
tong2020

Exactly !

yes he believes those who are dead in their sins as per Ephesians 2 and Colossians 2 are made alive by their faith and not by Gods grace who first made them alive while they were dead.

typical of the legalists who put the cart before the horse. pelagius the heretic also thought the dead were alive and could choose God on their own apart from Gods grace.

Tong2020 · Jan 19, 2021

justbyfaith said:
That Jesus died for our sins does not preclude that we are all forgiven of our sins. Consider the implication that this understanding has for your doctrine. The "grace" of Jesus dying for us on the Cross is not applied until the person has faith in Him. Faith must precede the grace of being saved through that sacrifice; for the sacrifice is not applied except through faith in Jesus. Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners; yet this does not preclude that every sinner is saved. One must place their faith in Jesus and what He did for them in order to appropriate what He did for them while they were yet a sinner.

Salvation is God’s work not man’s. Salvation is by grace. As it starts with God, it starts with grace and is all grace. It is grace given to man when God grants the man repentance. It is grace given when God gives man faith.

<<<The "grace" of Jesus dying for us on the Cross is not applied until the person has faith in Him.>>>

Grace is not something applied but given.

Anyway, grace first or faith first, perhaps is just a matter of perspective, either from man’s standpoint or God’s. I am obviously of the latter.

The thing is, grace and faith comes from and given by God to man.

Tong
R1450

justbyfaith · Jan 20, 2021

A gift that is given must be received or else it does not belong to the person to whom it is given; it remains in the hands of the giver.

Grace must be received; God is not going to save/sanctify anyone against their will.

Therefore they must repent of their sinful ways and trust Jesus to deliver them from their sins.

They must relinquish to God their right to be a sinner.

Tong2020 · Jan 20, 2021

justbyfaith said:
A gift that is given must be received or else it does not belong to the person to whom it is given; it remains in the hands of the giver.

Grace must be received; God is not going to save/sanctify anyone against their will.

Therefore they must repent of their sinful ways and trust Jesus to deliver them from their sins.

They must relinquish to God their right to be a sinner.

As I said, the thing is, grace and faith comes from and given by God.

And God gives grace and faith to man and gives them to whom He wills to give them, regardless of man’s will.

In the past, that was demonstrated where He destroyed all mankind and willed to give grace and faith to only 8. And was regardless of their will. Not because that the 8 were without sin and the others are with sin that it was like that. God could have destroyed them all and that would not at all be unrighteous on His part. And neither was it unrighteous of God in saving the 8 and destroying the rest of mankind. It’s really all about His will, not the will of man.

<<<God is not going to save/sanctify anyone against their will.>>>

Man’s will is it then with you it seems.

That God can’t or will not do to man that is against the man’s will is I think a lie and a deceptive one at that.

I will not attempt to argue against that here.

Tong
R1453

brightfame52 · Jan 20, 2021

Tong2020 said:
Salvation is God’s work not man’s. Salvation is by grace. As it starts with God, it starts with grace and is all grace. It is grace given to man when God grants the man repentance. It is grace given when God gives man faith.

<<<The "grace" of Jesus dying for us on the Cross is not applied until the person has faith in Him.>>>

Grace is not something applied but given.

Anyway, grace first or faith first, perhaps is just a matter of perspective, either from man’s standpoint or God’s. I am obviously of the latter.

The thing is, grace and faith comes from and given by God to man.

Tong
R1450

Grace first in the New Birth then Faith, Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 !

Tong2020 · Jan 20, 2021

brightfame52 said:
Grace first in the New Birth then Faith, Faith is the fruit of the Spirit Gal 5:22 !

I am afraid we have a different take on Gal. 5:22 regarding faith.

But yes, its grace first.

Tong
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brightfame52 · Jan 20, 2021

Tong2020 said:
I am afraid we have a different take on Gal. 5:22 regarding faith.

But yes, its grace first.

Tong
R1463

Thats fine, however I believe fruit of the Spirit can also be viewed as grace of the Spirit, for example Zech 12:10

10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

I agree with John Gill here:

the Spirit of grace and of supplications; by which is meant the Holy Spirit of God, who is called the "Spirit of grace"; not merely because he is good and gracious, and loving to his people, and is of grace given unto them; but because he is the author of all grace in them; of gracious convictions, and spiritual illuminations; of quickening, regenerating, converting, and sanctifying grace; and of all particular graces, as faith, hope, love, fear, repentance, humility, joy, peace, meekness, patience, longsuffering, self-denial, &c.; as well as because he is the revealer, applier, and witnesser of all the blessings of grace unto them: and he is called the "Spirit of supplications"; because he indites the prayers of his people, shows them their wants, and stirs them up to pray; enlarges their hearts, supplies them with arguments, and puts words into their mouths; gives faith, fervency, and freedom, and encourages to come to God as their Father, and makes intercession for them, according to the will of God: pouring it upon them denotes the abundance and freeness of his grace; see Isaiah 44:3,

justbyfaith · Jan 20, 2021

Tong2020 said:
As I said, the thing is, grace and faith comes from and given by God.

And God gives grace and faith to man and gives them to whom He wills to give them, regardless of man’s will.

In the past, that was demonstrated where He destroyed all mankind and willed to give grace and faith to only 8. And was regardless of their will. Not because that the 8 were without sin and the others are with sin that it was like that. God could have destroyed them all and that would not at all be unrighteous on His part. And neither was it unrighteous of God in saving the 8 and destroying the rest of mankind. It’s really all about His will, not the will of man.

If the Lord did arbitrarily choose out certain people for heaven and they have no choice in the matter; and others for hell andf they have no choice in the matter, then that would indeed be an unrighteous thing.

Fortunately, we know that God is righteous; and because we know that He is righteous, we also know that He did not arbitrarily choose out some people to burn in everlasting fire.

Tong2020 said:
That God can’t or will not do to man that is against the man’s will is I think a lie and a deceptive one at that.

It is not that He can't but it is that He won't.

God values free will as can be seen by the original set-up in the garden of Eden.

He did not want to create a bunch of robots who say, "I love You, I worship You" but who have no choice in the matter. Such "worship" would be meaningless.

He wanted people who have a choice in the matter to offer up worship to Him as a matter of them desiring to do so. This is, in fact, what glorifies Him.

But why would God create conscious people just to stoke the fires of hell? He could just as easily create unconscious matter for that purpose.

If you think that God created conscious people who have no choice in the matter of whether they will be cast into everlasting burnings, I'm sorry, I think that you have a sadistic god.

Tong2020 · Jan 21, 2021

justbyfaith said:
If the Lord did arbitrarily choose out certain people for heaven and they have no choice in the matter; and others for hell andf they have no choice in the matter, then that would indeed be an unrighteous thing.

Fortunately, we know that God is righteous; and because we know that He is righteous, we also know that He did not arbitrarily choose out some people to burn in everlasting fire.

Who says God arbitrarily choose? I did not.

justbyfaith said:
It is not that He can't but it is that He won't.

God values free will as can be seen by the original set-up in the garden of Eden.

He did not want to create a bunch of robots who say, "I love You, I worship You" but who have no choice in the matter. Such "worship" would be meaningless.

He wanted people who have a choice in the matter to offer up worship to Him as a matter of them desiring to do so. This is, in fact, what glorifies Him.

But why would God create conscious people just to stoke the fires of hell? He could just as easily create unconscious matter for that purpose.

If you think that God created conscious people who have no choice in the matter of whether they will be cast into everlasting burnings, I'm sorry, I think that you have a sadistic god.

My God is the God revealed in scriptures and in the creation. So, please....

<<<It is not that He can't but it is that He won't.>>>

Very well then. But I think it is presumptuous to say that God won't do to man that is against man’s will. While God created man with the capacity to will, and allowed them to make choices according to that will, it does not take away God’s sovereignty over man. What God will or won’t do, only God knows.

Noah and his family of 7, God gave grace and faith, and that was evidently His will. Nothing was said about the wills of the 8 whether it was their will to be saved or not. God did not ask if they wanted to be saved or not. It was also evidently God’s will that He did not give grace and faith to the rest of mankind in the days of Noah. Nothing was also said about their wills, whether each of them wanted to be saved or not. And that includes even infants, little children, mentally impaired, and all.

For brevity. That will do for now. As scriptures have more to tell.

As I said, it’s really all about His will, not the will of man.

Tong
R1481

brightfame52 · Jan 21, 2021

jbf

If the Lord did arbitrarily choose out certain people for heaven and they have no choice in the matter; and others for hell andf they have no choice in the matter, then that would indeed be an unrighteous thing.

Bingo, thats what the disputers of God say Rom 9:11-16

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

!7-23

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

justbyfaith · Jan 21, 2021

Tong2020 said:
Who says God arbitrarily choose? I did not.

If God does not choose on the basis of whether a man chooses Him, how is that not an arbitrary choice on the part of the Lord?

Tong2020 said:
It was also evidently God’s will that He did not give grace and faith to the rest of mankind in the days of Noah.

Noah was found righteous in God's sight, the rest of mankind was not.

I most certainly believe that the ones who were not found righteous were found to be not righteous because of choices that they made. And that Noah was found righteous because of choices that he made.

Tong2020 · Jan 22, 2021

justbyfaith said:
If God does not choose on the basis of whether a man chooses Him, how is that not an arbitrary choice on the part of the Lord?

God chooses according to His will, purpose, and pleasure, to whom He will have mercy. Does that sound arbitrary to you?

Your argument places man first and God last. Man choose first and then God. But God is always the first, in fact even the last.

justbyfaith said:
Noah was found righteous in God's sight, the rest of mankind was not.

I most certainly believe that the ones who were not found righteous were found to be not righteous because of choices that they made. And that Noah was found righteous because of choices that he made.

Yes Noah was found righteous. Of the other 7, were they found righteous? Who knows. Perhaps. If God chose to destroy Noah with the rest, is there unrighteousness with God?None. If God chose not to destroy all of mankind, is there unrighteousness with God? None. If God chose the 8 to give grace and faith and not to the rest, is there unrighteousness with God? None. What we know, is that God chooses according to His will, purpose, and pleasure, and that there is no unrighteousness in Him. That Noah is found righteous does not at all necessarily make the choosing of God according to that.

justbyfaith said:
I most certainly believe that the ones who were not found righteous were found to be not righteous because of choices that they made. And that Noah was found righteous because of choices that he made.

In that case, you sure are looking at man’s will. Have you easily forgotten what really it is that a man is said to be righteous?

You seem to just have ignored or forgotten what I pointed out in my post. God did not ask if they wanted to be saved or not. It was also evidently God’s will that He did not give grace and faith to the rest of mankind in the days of Noah. Nothing was also said about their wills, whether each of them wanted to be saved or not. And that includes even infants, little children, mentally impaired, and all.

It’s not about the will of man, but that of God.

Tong
R1500

justbyfaith · Jan 22, 2021

Tong2020 said:
God chooses according to His will, purpose, and pleasure, to whom He will have mercy. Does that sound arbitrary to you?

Yes.

If God chooses according to whether a man receives His righteousness that He offers to him, then it is not arbitrary.

But if it is based on God's choice alone and man does not have a say in the matter of whether or not he will go to the lake of fire, that is indeed an arbitrary decision on the part of the Lord.

Tong2020 said:
What we know, is that God chooses according to His will, purpose, and pleasure, and that there is no unrighteousness in Him.

Therefore, the unrighteous proposition that God would arbitrarily choose people out for the lake of fire is not viable.

Tong2020 said:
That Noah is found righteous does not at all necessarily make the choosing of God according to that.

Of course the choosing of God is according to that.

Tong2020 said:
God did not ask if they wanted to be saved or not.

I believe that God extended an invitation to every single one of them. How else will they be held morally responsible for their sins on their day of judgment?

Tong2020 said:
It’s not about the will of man, but that of God.

Again, you have God arbitrarily choosing out people for the lake of fire.

Tong2020 · Jan 22, 2021

justbyfaith said:
Yes.

Then will it be with you, I’m afraid.

God’s choices aren’t arbitrary at all. Not one of the choices He made is. Every choice He makes reflects His whole character.

justbyfaith said:
If God chooses according to whether a man receives His righteousness that He offers to him, then it is not arbitrary.

But if it is based on God's choice alone and man does not have a say in the matter of whether or not he will go to the lake of fire, that is indeed an arbitrary decision on the part of the Lord.

<<<But if it is based on God's choice alone....>>>

What do you mean by God’s choice alone? Every choice He makes reflects His whole character, and is never baseless. His choices depend not on his creation, but in His character. God had made choices even before man and they were not at all arbitrary nor were conditioned on anything, not on the will of another.

Man’s will is clear even in the beginning of time, that is death. But God’s will is not what man willed. God chose to save man and give him life, which is against man’s will. Is that arbitrary to you?

So all man have chosen death and hell. If then God chose to not give mercy to any one, will you hold God to be unrighteous? Now that He gives mercy to whom He will have mercy, will you hold Him unrighteous? It is not what you think he must do, such as to choose to give mercy only to them who allows God to save them, is what would make God righteous. The righteousness of God does not depend on the thoughts of man as to what is the righteous thing that God must do or will not do. Read Romans 11:33.

justbyfaith said:
Therefore, the unrighteous proposition that God would arbitrarily choose people out for the lake of fire is not viable.

He did not choose arbitrarily sir. I have explained that. The issue we are at now is what is arbitrary.

justbyfaith said:
Of course the choosing of God is according to that.

Just saying it is does not make your case sir. If you insist, and I have already told you why that is not so, then that’s it for you.

justbyfaith said:
I believe that God extended an invitation to every single one of them. How else will they be held morally responsible for their sins on their day of judgment?

Well anyone can believe what he thinks.

<<<How else will they be held morally responsible for their sins on their day of judgment?>>>
Are they not guilty of sin? Will they not be held responsible for their sins?

justbyfaith said:
Again, you have God arbitrarily choosing out people for the lake of fire.

Perhaps then we can leave it at that. We are just going in circles.

If you don’t believe that it’s all about God’s will and not man’s, that’s on you. You hold on to man’s will and I’ll hold on to God’s will.

Tong
R1513

justbyfaith · Jan 22, 2021

Tong2020 said:
God’s choices aren’t arbitrary at all. Not one of the choices He made is. Every choice He makes reflects His whole character.

Tong2020 said:
What do you mean by God’s choice alone? Every choice He makes reflects His whole character, and is never baseless. His choices depend not on his creation, but in His character. God had made choices even before man and they were not at all arbitrary nor were conditioned on anything, not on the will of another.

For these reasons, I submit to you that God chose to redeem people who would respond to His wooing by the Holy Spirit whom He foreknew would make that choice from the beginning of time (Romans 8:29-30, 1 Peter 1:2).

Because if He chose them on any other basis, it is an arbitrary decision to cast certain men into the lake of fire; and they have no choice in the matter...no salvation is offered to them and therefore God has arbitrarily chosen to cast them into the lake of fire without offering them any hope of redemption.

Tong2020 said:
Man’s will is clear even in the beginning of time, that is death. But God’s will is not what man willed. God chose to save man and give him life, which is against man’s will. Is that arbitrary to you?

Only if the lord does not give man a choice in the matter of whether he will walk in righteousness or sin.

Tong2020 said:
So all man have chosen death and hell. If then God chose to not give mercy to any one, will you hold God to be unrighteous?

Only if the one He did not give mercy to had no choice in the matter of :"having chosen death and hell".

See, even in your statements, you prove that man has a free will; for you have to admit that in order for God to be just in condemning a man, the man would have had to have chosen death and hell (sin).

Tong2020 said:
He did not choose arbitrarily sir. I have explained that. The issue we are at now is what is arbitrary.

Arbitrary has to do with choosing to condemn people without offering them any hope of redemption or a choice to make that would deliver them from the fate of everlasting condemnation.

Tong2020 said:
Just saying it is does not make your case sir.

Just saying it is not, does not make your case either sir.

Tong2020 said:
<<<How else will they be held morally responsible for their sins on their day of judgment?>>>
Are they not guilty of sin? Will they not be held responsible for their sins?

If they were given no opportunity for redemption, can they be held accountable for rejecting the message of salvation?

Tong2020 said:
If you don’t believe that it’s all about God’s will and not man’s, that’s on you. You hold on to man’s will and I’ll hold on to God’s will.

What will you do if it is not God's will to save you? What makes you think that you are one of the elect? If you are not of the elect, your doctrine might say that you cannot come to Christ or that if you come to Him He will surely cast you out; contrary to John 6:37.

Jesus saves unbelievers !

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